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On March 03 2014 20:44 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 20:34 unigolyn wrote:On March 03 2014 20:21 mcc wrote:On March 03 2014 20:11 unigolyn wrote:On March 03 2014 18:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Btw, random question, is it Estonia or Latvia that celebrates the SS and other Nazi German military divisions from WW2? I'll answer that random question with a random go fuck yourself. EDIT: And yes, I see the mod note. You're being a colossal dick. It is off-topic, and he is unnecessarily provocative, but to answer, it is happening in Latvia as far as I know. Russia invaded our country in 1939 under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and deported/murdered a large portion of our population. The Germans invaded, and kicked them out. When the Russians invaded again, the only way to fight them was to join the Wehrmacht. We honor the Estonians who fought against foreign invaders, not the uniforms they were forced to wear while doing it. When moralizing about WW2, the West conveniently forgets the division of Europe between Hitler and Stalin, and the fact that when Germany invaded Poland from the west, the USSR invaded from the east and they met in the middle to shake hands. I know that history very well, I went to Polish school, for some reason it was important topic  I understand where the people in the Baltics were coming from, but committing atrocities while helping Germans is not easily excused. Celebrating those people has no excuse whatsoever.
No one celebrates people who committed atrocities. Fighting against the Red Army on your own soil is not an "atrocity". We were not allied with Nazi Germany, our government was literally in exile and the only way for our people to fight back was to put on Wehrmacht uniforms. If any association with the Axis makes us automatically complicit in the Holocaust, then the West is also automatically complicit in Stalin's death toll for allying with the USSR.
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On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters
All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments.
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Russian troops in unmarked uniforms now control the ferry terminal at Kerch which links #Crimea with Russia pic.twitter.com/Z46oK1NDGR
according to german news sources, russian jets have violated ukraine sovereign airspace twice. ukrainian jets intercepted to prevent more provokations.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/liveticker-die-lage-auf-der-krim-a-956543.html
On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments.
Well, it is their right to do so. Especially as it is THEIR territory which is invaded and occupied by hostile enemy forces
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On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments.
They made clear already that they don't expect foreign intervention. All they're doing is reasserting the fact that crimea is ukrainian territory. All the blame for this is squarely with Russia.
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On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments.
I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"?
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On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"?
There's middleground between "we welcome russia to annex crimea" and "war declaration". At least in civilized countries.
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On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments.
Don't kid yourself. If Turkey could annex a part of Germany that has a big Turkish population, every German would be saying the same thing.
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On March 03 2014 21:19 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? There's middleground between "we welcome russia to annex crimea" and "war declaration". At least in civilized countries.
Pretty sure there is no middle ground to take when a country is physically threatening to invade. It's up to the aggressor to deescalate the conflict.
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On March 03 2014 21:27 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. Don't kid yourself. If Turkey could annex a part of Germany that has a big Turkish population, every German would be saying the same thing.
Small difference here though, we have a legit government that could issue said statement, which could not be disregarded as a bandit-statement. Meaning, we can defend ourselves, our army would follow orders - other than in the ukraine. They don't have an army, the government can't issue orders, and is basically threatening with hot air.
If you are getting mugged by someone, the first thing you say is not "come at me bro, shoot, you pussy".
Pretty sure there is no middle ground to take when a country is physically threatening to invade. It's up to the aggressor to deescalate the conflict.
If western powers (namely the UK and the US) would live up to their promises, this would't have happened in the first place. Also, i remember vividly that in the last couple of years a country waged war to replace governments they deemed "not worthy". Why is it different now? Don't get me wrong, i'm absolutely against the invasion, but where some people here point at euromaidan for this crisis, i think this crisis had it coming the moment the ukraine gave up it's nuclear arsenal.
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On March 03 2014 21:19 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? There's middleground between "we welcome russia to annex crimea" and "war declaration". At least in civilized countries.
Demand 10, the other side demand 0, and settle at 5 is a classic compromise. If you demand 8, you might only get 4. None of the parties involved in this issue thinks that their demand will be fully met. They just have to aim big first to get a better deal at the end. The fact that the West had to repeat a million times "territorial integrity of Ukraine," which shouldn't have been in question in the first place, shows that Russia can get a better deal just by giving up annexing Crimea.
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On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"?
My personal idea?
Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times.
Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible.
Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever.
By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster.
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On March 03 2014 21:33 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? My personal idea? Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times. Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible. Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever. By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster.
What desperate times? What peacekeeping?
There was nothing exceptional going on in crimea that asked for any forces, be it ukrainian or russian.
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On March 03 2014 21:38 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:33 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? My personal idea? Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times. Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible. Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever. By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster. What desperate times? What peacekeeping? There was nothing exceptional going on in crimea that asked for any forces, be it ukrainian or russian.
If the Russian narrative is "we're protecting our Russian speaking buddies" and the Ukranian narrative is "We're being invaded" and Russia simply doesn't leave, what is Ukraine gonna do? Start shooting at Russian troops?
As someone above already explained Ukraine has no leverage against a military action by Russia besides hoping for an intervention by the west. That's where you just accept the Russian narrative and use it as an explanation for why you want western troops in the rest of your country. Not against Russia, but for the people of Ukraine and their protection. There is no possible way of Russia being able to pull any kind of "Oh those Russians next door need our protection, too!"-bullshit if there's another block already doing the "peacekeeping", you avoid any possible worst case of Ukrainian forces shooting Russians "by accident".
e: Add quotation marks to "desperate times" and "peacekeeping" and it might make more sense. Ukraine had (has?) the chance to abuse those stupid as fuck explanations and turn them against Russia and completely take out any momentum they could gather.
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On March 03 2014 21:44 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:38 Derez wrote:On March 03 2014 21:33 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? My personal idea? Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times. Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible. Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever. By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster. What desperate times? What peacekeeping? There was nothing exceptional going on in crimea that asked for any forces, be it ukrainian or russian. If the Russian narrative is "we're protecting our Russian speaking buddies" and the Ukranian narrative is "We're being invaded" and Russia simply doesn't leave, what is Ukraine gonna do? Start shooting at Russian troops? As someone above already explained Ukraine has no leverage against a military action by Russia besides hoping for an intervention by the west. That's where you just accept the Russian narrative and use it as an explanation for why you want western troops in the rest of your country. There is no possible way of Russia being able to pull any kind of "Oh those Russians next door need our protection, too!"-bullshit if there's another block already doing the "peacekeeping", you avoid any possible worst case of Ukrainian forces shooting Russians "by accident".
The russian narrative is that events in ukraine are organized by jews/fascists/gays supported by the west and their narrative would never accept western peacekeepers. Ukraine's best bet is continuing to claim that crimea is theirs while trying to convince the west to impose sanctions on russia that'll end when the occupation ends.
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![[image loading]](http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/PA-16086493.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bho9w2kIEAAwTjO.jpg)
Remember Russia is the devil here and US is the last hope of civilization
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 03 2014 21:44 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:38 Derez wrote:On March 03 2014 21:33 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? My personal idea? Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times. Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible. Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever. By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster. What desperate times? What peacekeeping? There was nothing exceptional going on in crimea that asked for any forces, be it ukrainian or russian. If the Russian narrative is "we're protecting our Russian speaking buddies" and the Ukranian narrative is "We're being invaded" and Russia simply doesn't leave, what is Ukraine gonna do? Start shooting at Russian troops? As someone above already explained Ukraine has no leverage against a military action by Russia besides hoping for an intervention by the west. That's where you just accept the Russian narrative and use it as an explanation for why you want western troops in the rest of your country. Not against Russia, but for the people of Ukraine and their protection. There is no possible way of Russia being able to pull any kind of "Oh those Russians next door need our protection, too!"-bullshit if there's another block already doing the "peacekeeping", you avoid any possible worst case of Ukrainian forces shooting Russians "by accident". e: Add quotation marks to "desperate times" and "peacekeeping" and it might make more sense. Ukraine had (has?) the chance to abuse those stupid as fuck explanations and turn them against Russia and completely take out any momentum they could gather.
Welcome to the German invasions of pre-WW2.
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On March 03 2014 21:48 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:44 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:38 Derez wrote:On March 03 2014 21:33 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? My personal idea? Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times. Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible. Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever. By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster. What desperate times? What peacekeeping? There was nothing exceptional going on in crimea that asked for any forces, be it ukrainian or russian. If the Russian narrative is "we're protecting our Russian speaking buddies" and the Ukranian narrative is "We're being invaded" and Russia simply doesn't leave, what is Ukraine gonna do? Start shooting at Russian troops? As someone above already explained Ukraine has no leverage against a military action by Russia besides hoping for an intervention by the west. That's where you just accept the Russian narrative and use it as an explanation for why you want western troops in the rest of your country. Not against Russia, but for the people of Ukraine and their protection. There is no possible way of Russia being able to pull any kind of "Oh those Russians next door need our protection, too!"-bullshit if there's another block already doing the "peacekeeping", you avoid any possible worst case of Ukrainian forces shooting Russians "by accident". e: Add quotation marks to "desperate times" and "peacekeeping" and it might make more sense. Ukraine had (has?) the chance to abuse those stupid as fuck explanations and turn them against Russia and completely take out any momentum they could gather. Welcome to the German invasions of pre-WW2.
such a good comparison, look at these russian laws threaning a folk. this is so misplaced
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On March 03 2014 21:47 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:44 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:38 Derez wrote:On March 03 2014 21:33 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? My personal idea? Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times. Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible. Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever. By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster. What desperate times? What peacekeeping? There was nothing exceptional going on in crimea that asked for any forces, be it ukrainian or russian. If the Russian narrative is "we're protecting our Russian speaking buddies" and the Ukranian narrative is "We're being invaded" and Russia simply doesn't leave, what is Ukraine gonna do? Start shooting at Russian troops? As someone above already explained Ukraine has no leverage against a military action by Russia besides hoping for an intervention by the west. That's where you just accept the Russian narrative and use it as an explanation for why you want western troops in the rest of your country. There is no possible way of Russia being able to pull any kind of "Oh those Russians next door need our protection, too!"-bullshit if there's another block already doing the "peacekeeping", you avoid any possible worst case of Ukrainian forces shooting Russians "by accident". The russian narrative is that events in ukraine are organized by jews/fascists/gays supported by the west and their narrative would never accept western peacekeepers. Ukraine's best bet is continuing to claim that crimea is theirs while trying to convince the west to impose sanctions on russia that'll end when the occupation ends.
Just imagine for a second that there are (in whatever shape or form) western peacekeeping troops in the rest of Ukraine. *poof* - What's Russia gonna do? Shoot them? Nope, not even Putin.
I mean sure I understand your idea of solving this. It's just pretty damn explosive because it's all off the radar and there are lots and lots of ways for it to go wrong.
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On March 03 2014 21:48 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 21:44 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:38 Derez wrote:On March 03 2014 21:33 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 21:15 aksfjh wrote:On March 03 2014 21:10 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 19:41 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk says Ukraine will never give up Crimea to anyone - Interfax via @Reuters All those Ukrainian statements in the last week aren't exactly helping to solve anything. The way they frame the issue it seems there is a genuine belief that the western world will gladly declare a war on Russia for them if push comes to shove which results in them issuing stronger and stronger comments. I guess your idea of a correct response would have been, "We welcome Russia to annex Crimea!"? My personal idea? Thank Russia for the effort of peacekeeping Crimea in these desperate times. Invite observers from various groups and EU/NATO/other allied troops to help with the peacekeeping effort in the rest of Ukraine. Aim for joining the NATO as soon as possible. Work from there. Worst case you lose Crimea straight up, best case you get the people living there to get a vote on it a month down the road. However, you avoid any risk of Russia being able to escalate this situation any further and you avoid the possibility of dumb shit happening and escalating into a full blown war between Ukraine and Russia without any outside help whatsoever. By choosing the line of RUSSIA IS INVADING HELP US AGAINST THEM (PS: OUR MILITARY WON'T GIVE UP ANYTHING EVER) they're putting the west in the awkward position of either not helping or risking a war with Russia. Right now this whole thing is one huge pile of explosives waiting to blow up, one single person fucking up and firing a shot can lead to an incredible disaster. What desperate times? What peacekeeping? There was nothing exceptional going on in crimea that asked for any forces, be it ukrainian or russian. If the Russian narrative is "we're protecting our Russian speaking buddies" and the Ukranian narrative is "We're being invaded" and Russia simply doesn't leave, what is Ukraine gonna do? Start shooting at Russian troops? As someone above already explained Ukraine has no leverage against a military action by Russia besides hoping for an intervention by the west. That's where you just accept the Russian narrative and use it as an explanation for why you want western troops in the rest of your country. Not against Russia, but for the people of Ukraine and their protection. There is no possible way of Russia being able to pull any kind of "Oh those Russians next door need our protection, too!"-bullshit if there's another block already doing the "peacekeeping", you avoid any possible worst case of Ukrainian forces shooting Russians "by accident". e: Add quotation marks to "desperate times" and "peacekeeping" and it might make more sense. Ukraine had (has?) the chance to abuse those stupid as fuck explanations and turn them against Russia and completely take out any momentum they could gather. Welcome to the German invasions of pre-WW2.
Do you have more to say than simple proletic one-liners, aka something to add to a discussion?
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EPT
