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Ukraine Crisis - Page 132

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
mijagi182
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland797 Posts
March 02 2014 16:51 GMT
#2621
On March 03 2014 01:36 Ghanburighan wrote:
Take this crap to the WW2 discussion thread...

+1. Lets stay on topic plz.
oh in the sun sun having fun
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5807 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-02 17:02:27
March 02 2014 16:56 GMT
#2622
On March 03 2014 01:05 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 00:41 maybenexttime wrote:
On March 02 2014 23:06 Maenander wrote:
On March 02 2014 22:43 zeo wrote:
LOL Ghanburighan, nowhere in that post did I say everyone on Team Liquid was sucking Hitlers cock. For those without reading deficiencies it clearly says hard nationalists who of course see nazi collaborators as heroes.

Please stop, its getting sad.

Nazi collaborators are long dead or old and sickly.

Yes, the right-wing Ukrainians might be crazy nationalists, I heard some of those live in Serbia, too. But this is not the time to brush up the old Soviet rhetoric, we live in the 21st century.

The Chinese might be correct in that some westerners still have a cold war mentality, but it seems that's actually a quite modern view compared to others ...


You are being willingly blind. Support for Svoboda in the last elections.

[image loading]

This is the equivalent of neonazi party getting 30% of votes in Bavaria, Germany - in 2012... Those three provinces is where the genocide of Volhynia took place (probably the most brutal genocide in modern history of Europe), and people who sympathize with Svoboda consider murderers as their national heroes.

The funny thing is that Ukrainian voters around the world voted (top right corner) for the party much more than Ukrainians in general: 23% against 10%. Guess the world is far more fascist than Ukraine on average.


Are you trying to say that Svoboda is not facist? That it did not demand that Ukraine annex certain Polish territories? That they do not consider genocidal murderers as Ukrainian national heroes? What are you implying?

And if you were at least slightly interested in the topic of the genocide of Volhynia, you'd know that UPA members have infiltrated Western intellectual circles the same way Communists have. While the latter put a lot of effort into making Stalin's genocidal practices look not as bad, the former did the same for the genocide of Volhynia.
AleXoundOS
Profile Joined January 2011
Georgia458 Posts
March 02 2014 16:59 GMT
#2623
On March 02 2014 23:53 Ramong wrote:
Maybe in Russia, and to some extent USA with Fox..
But the news in western EU is generally non biased and very objective.
Channels can be biased without being controlled, but it's nice that you have at least a few objective channels.
Also channels may hide many facts without lying and still being pretty objective. Like hiding how exactly maidan leaders violated laws while trying to put new acting president and the rest of the government or not showing attacks on police with tractor or something else.

On March 03 2014 00:41 maybenexttime wrote:
This is the equivalent of neonazi party getting 30% of votes in Bavaria, Germany - in 2012... Those three provinces is where the genocide of Volhynia took place (probably the most brutal genocide in modern history of Europe), and people who sympathize with Svoboda consider murderers as their national heroes.
Finally some words regarding the future of Europe, that may be affected by supporting actions of Svoboda-like parties.

On March 03 2014 00:47 SilentchiLL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 00:41 maybenexttime wrote:
On March 02 2014 23:06 Maenander wrote:
On March 02 2014 22:43 zeo wrote:
LOL Ghanburighan, nowhere in that post did I say everyone on Team Liquid was sucking Hitlers cock. For those without reading deficiencies it clearly says hard nationalists who of course see nazi collaborators as heroes.

Please stop, its getting sad.

Nazi collaborators are long dead or old and sickly.

Yes, the right-wing Ukrainians might be crazy nationalists, I heard some of those live in Serbia, too. But this is not the time to brush up the old Soviet rhetoric, we live in the 21st century.

The Chinese might be correct in that some westerners still have a cold war mentality, but it seems that's actually a quite modern view compared to others ...


You are being willingly blind. Support for Svoboda in the last elections.

[image loading]

This is the equivalent of neonazi party getting 30% of votes in Bavaria, Germany - in 2012... Those three provinces is where the genocide of Volhynia took place (probably the most brutal genocide in modern history of Europe), and people who sympathize with Svoboda consider murderers as their national heroes.



Why do you completely ignore the fact that Svoboda only got that many votes that one time and because it was used as a protest party?
Who cares about how much votes they got. Even EU doesn't care.
But they are one of the forces that got government seats right now not without violence.

On March 03 2014 01:05 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 00:41 maybenexttime wrote:
On March 02 2014 23:06 Maenander wrote:
On March 02 2014 22:43 zeo wrote:
LOL Ghanburighan, nowhere in that post did I say everyone on Team Liquid was sucking Hitlers cock. For those without reading deficiencies it clearly says hard nationalists who of course see nazi collaborators as heroes.

Please stop, its getting sad.

Nazi collaborators are long dead or old and sickly.

Yes, the right-wing Ukrainians might be crazy nationalists, I heard some of those live in Serbia, too. But this is not the time to brush up the old Soviet rhetoric, we live in the 21st century.

The Chinese might be correct in that some westerners still have a cold war mentality, but it seems that's actually a quite modern view compared to others ...


You are being willingly blind. Support for Svoboda in the last elections.

[image loading]

This is the equivalent of neonazi party getting 30% of votes in Bavaria, Germany - in 2012... Those three provinces is where the genocide of Volhynia took place (probably the most brutal genocide in modern history of Europe), and people who sympathize with Svoboda consider murderers as their national heroes.

The funny thing is that Ukrainian voters around the world voted (top right corner) for the party much more than Ukrainians in general: 23% against 10%. Guess the world is far more fascist than Ukraine on average.
But world somehow protects their government from them and in this case EU suddenly got rights to support it.
https://bwapi.github.io - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1)
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 02 2014 17:01 GMT
#2624
+ Show Spoiler [Good analysis] +

Barack Obama suddenly faces the toughest crisis of his presidency as he confronts Vladimir Putin over Ukraine, and how he responds over the next few days could define his legacy. It is a crisis that has appeared to erupt in his face, in a swift and unexpected turn of events. And yet in many respects what has happened in the Crimean peninsula is no surprise at all. It has been a confrontation in the making for nearly a quarter century: Obama is in effect dealing with the backlash to eastward-expansionist policies that predate the end of the Cold War and span the presidencies of Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

The Russian president's decision to send some 6,000 Russian troops into the border region of Crimea, ostensibly to defend ethnic Russians living in that part of Ukraine, is in some ways a last-ditch Russian response to a two-decade period of eastward incursion by the United States and the West. Through the country-by-country enlargement of NATO and the European Union, Washington and Western Europe have been gradually moving into what used to be seen as the Soviet and Russian sphere, and it's no surprise that during this period Russian conservatives have tended to view Washington as a bully constantly poking a stick at Moscow's self-esteem. Putin's entire rise to political power was built on his pledge that he would permit no more disintegration of Russia, and most of what he has done as president, including his concept of a "Eurasian Union" and his attempts to wean the now-ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich from the EU, has been about reasserting Russia's historic power in that part of the world -- pushing back the relentless tide of the West.

And so Crimea, which many Russians see as their historic blood-brother and where the Russian Black Seat fleet is still quartered, is truly Putin's "red line." Judging from his rhetoric and actions since he first came to power in 1991, his move into Crimea was not surprising at all.

As a result, Obama and his partners in the G-8 and the West must now wrangle with some grim realities: First, a military response is unthinkable between the nuclear-armed former adversaries of the Cold War. The nightmarish outcome that Dwight Eisenhower avoided in 1956, when he declined to respond to the Soviet invasion of Hungary, and that John Kennedy found a way out of when he tested but did not provoke Soviet responses over Berlin and Cuba, is still something that an American president must think about. (According to the Arms Control Association, the U.S. still has about 5,113 nuclear warheads, and Russia has at least 4,462.)

Just as important, Putin understands all this very well. He also knows that the 140,000 Ukrainian land forces are in no position to take on his own. This is true not least because they are still, in another legacy of the Cold War, arrayed in the western part of the country rather than along the border with Russia, with the bulk of them in Kiev and Odessa and Carpathia toward the southwest. Did Putin violate international law by invading and make himself look like a hypocrite because previously he has been a stout defender of other nations' sovereignty (for example, in Syria). Yes, he did—but he also probably doesn't care a whit. "We're not going to fight Putin for Ukraine. He knows it," former Under Secretary of State and NATO ambassador Nicholas Burns said in a phone briefing with reporters on Sunday. "There are no good options. It's obvious that Putin starts with a major strategic advantage."

At the same time, however, it is critical that Obama respond strongly, and that this response be swift. At stake is not only the future of Ukraine, where the chaotically disorganized opposition to Yanukovich is waiting and wondering, but in the Middle East and throughout Asia, where many leaders have taken to questioning America's commitment to the world. After pledging and then backing down from strikes against Syria last year, and staking his presidency on the withdrawal from America's wars, Obama now has something to prove: He can take aggressive action. Whether he likes it or not, Putin and other world leaders appear to view him as indecisive and unwilling to take risks.

The only reasonable response, then, must be a powerful diplomatic thrust to isolate Putin and make immediately clear the costs of moving beyond Crimea into the rest of Ukraine. The risks for Obama in this are huge but he has no choice but to take them. Despite the fact that he needs the good will of Moscow in order to resolve the nuclear talks with Iran and peace negotiations over Syria, Obama must gamble that if he leads a decisive, united world response to the Crimean incursion, it will at once impress the Russian president and make Putin worry about his and Russia's international image, a concern of the Kremlin's that was so obvious during the just-concluded Sochi Olympics. Putin must be made to calculate that further recalcitrance not only over Ukraine but over Iran and Syria as well will only isolate him further.

Secretary of State John Kerry's description of Putin's move as an "act of aggression" on Sunday was a start. The next and most obvious step, say diplomats like Burns, should be to boycott the forthcoming G-8 summit in Sochi and, more importantly, enlist the other G-7 countries to expel Moscow from the G-8 altogether until it stands down from what is clearly a violation of international law. Obama should also, bilaterally, suspend negotiations over a bilateral investment treaty and enlist the help of an often more hawkish Congress, calling for a second round of "Magnitsky" sanctions against Russian leaders.

At the same time, the United States and Europe should immediately agree to a massive economic aid package for Ukraine. The protests in Kiev that began last year were touched off by Ukraine's economic straits and the question of whether membership in the European Union was forthcoming, and a show of economic force now will speak louder than an army. These responses should be be dragged out, not with Putin and the Ukrainians hanging on Obama's every move. "Time is important," says Burns. "Symbolism is going to be important." In other words, the last thing Obama should be doing now is convening a months-long policy review as he did with Afghanistan or Syria.

Another step Obama could take is to call for a vote in the UN Security Council calling on Moscow to rescind the authorization to use force. As former NATO ambassador Ivo Daalder puts it, "Russia will of course veto such a resolution, but it will be important for the other members (including China, which staunchly opposes such interference in internal affairs of another state) to stand together against Russia." In addition, even though NATO is not obligated to defend Ukraine, it should be called upon to deliver a strong statement reiterating its public support for Ukraine's independence and sovereignty.

This is far and away the most brazen response we have seen from Moscow since the humiliation of the Cold War's end. It is part of the same battle that so defined the 2012 presidential campaign, when GOP nominee Mitt Romney called Russia America's "No. 1 geopolitical foe" and stirred up Putin over missile defense deployed in Poland and other countries. It is much more perilous than what happened in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia in 2008, when the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia split from Georgia and Russia recognized both territories as independent countries. Both territories are now under Russian control, in effect, and Putin may wish for the same outcome with Crimea and the Russian-dominated portion of eastern Ukraine. That may well happen—but it shouldn't come without considerable cost to him.
Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6342 Posts
March 02 2014 17:04 GMT
#2625
On March 03 2014 01:17 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukraine is preparing to defend itself against Russia, Ukrainian ambassador to UN says - @Reuters

Deputy Commander of naval base in Simferopol, Ukraine, says he will not surrender and is ready to fight - @MarquardtA

Ukraine says its navy still has full fleet of 10 ships in Crimean port of Sevastopol, which remain loyal to Kiev and have not disarmed - @Reuters




“I, Denis Berezovsky, swear allegiance to the people of Crimea and undertake to protect them, as required by statute,” Berezovsky said at a press conference in Sevastopol. He was appointed to the post of Commander of the Ukrainian Naval Forces by decree of Acting President Alexander Turchinov 1 March...

Sureeeee, the navy is listening to the junta....
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
March 02 2014 17:05 GMT
#2626
On March 03 2014 01:56 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 01:05 Cheerio wrote:
On March 03 2014 00:41 maybenexttime wrote:
On March 02 2014 23:06 Maenander wrote:
On March 02 2014 22:43 zeo wrote:
LOL Ghanburighan, nowhere in that post did I say everyone on Team Liquid was sucking Hitlers cock. For those without reading deficiencies it clearly says hard nationalists who of course see nazi collaborators as heroes.

Please stop, its getting sad.

Nazi collaborators are long dead or old and sickly.

Yes, the right-wing Ukrainians might be crazy nationalists, I heard some of those live in Serbia, too. But this is not the time to brush up the old Soviet rhetoric, we live in the 21st century.

The Chinese might be correct in that some westerners still have a cold war mentality, but it seems that's actually a quite modern view compared to others ...


You are being willingly blind. Support for Svoboda in the last elections.

[image loading]

This is the equivalent of neonazi party getting 30% of votes in Bavaria, Germany - in 2012... Those three provinces is where the genocide of Volhynia took place (probably the most brutal genocide in modern history of Europe), and people who sympathize with Svoboda consider murderers as their national heroes.

The funny thing is that Ukrainian voters around the world voted (top right corner) for the party much more than Ukrainians in general: 23% against 10%. Guess the world is far more fascist than Ukraine on average.


And if you were at least slightly interested in the topic of the genocide of Volhynia, you'd know that UPA members have infiltrated Western intellectual circles the same way Communists have. While the latter put a lot of effort into making Stalin's genocidal practices look not as bad, the former did the same for the genocide of Volhynia.

yeah, right.
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5807 Posts
March 02 2014 17:09 GMT
#2627
On March 03 2014 02:05 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 01:56 maybenexttime wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:05 Cheerio wrote:
On March 03 2014 00:41 maybenexttime wrote:
On March 02 2014 23:06 Maenander wrote:
On March 02 2014 22:43 zeo wrote:
LOL Ghanburighan, nowhere in that post did I say everyone on Team Liquid was sucking Hitlers cock. For those without reading deficiencies it clearly says hard nationalists who of course see nazi collaborators as heroes.

Please stop, its getting sad.

Nazi collaborators are long dead or old and sickly.

Yes, the right-wing Ukrainians might be crazy nationalists, I heard some of those live in Serbia, too. But this is not the time to brush up the old Soviet rhetoric, we live in the 21st century.

The Chinese might be correct in that some westerners still have a cold war mentality, but it seems that's actually a quite modern view compared to others ...


You are being willingly blind. Support for Svoboda in the last elections.

[image loading]

This is the equivalent of neonazi party getting 30% of votes in Bavaria, Germany - in 2012... Those three provinces is where the genocide of Volhynia took place (probably the most brutal genocide in modern history of Europe), and people who sympathize with Svoboda consider murderers as their national heroes.

The funny thing is that Ukrainian voters around the world voted (top right corner) for the party much more than Ukrainians in general: 23% against 10%. Guess the world is far more fascist than Ukraine on average.


And if you were at least slightly interested in the topic of the genocide of Volhynia, you'd know that UPA members have infiltrated Western intellectual circles the same way Communists have. While the latter put a lot of effort into making Stalin's genocidal practices look not as bad, the former did the same for the genocide of Volhynia.

yeah, right.


I don't see a point to continue our discussion. Hard to take an apologist of facists seriously.
AleXoundOS
Profile Joined January 2011
Georgia458 Posts
March 02 2014 17:14 GMT
#2628
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.
https://bwapi.github.io - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1)
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6342 Posts
March 02 2014 17:22 GMT
#2629
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-02 17:26:09
March 02 2014 17:24 GMT
#2630
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

What? Sure the opposition leaders should have honored the agreement and waited for an election.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion? Putin used the excuse that the Russian people living in Crimea was in danger.
When in fact the only ones with weapons was the Russians themself.

No one was killing Russians in Crimea, Putin just want Crimea back as part of Russia

A referendum in Crimea about joining Russia seems like the only democratic solution
"Yeah buddy"
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
March 02 2014 17:25 GMT
#2631
When it is explained that a man holding a gun only does so by the actions of others, it is time to seek an alternate explanation.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-02 17:28:55
March 02 2014 17:26 GMT
#2632
nvm
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 02 2014 17:28 GMT
#2633
On March 03 2014 02:24 Ramong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

What? Sure the opposition leaders should have honored the agreement and waited for an election.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion? Putin used the excuse that the Russian people living in Crimea was in danger.
When in fact the only ones with weapons was the Russians themself.

No one was killing Russians in Crimea, Putin just want Crimea back as part of Russia


It's so easy to get caught in the desinformation coming from Russia (repeated here by Zeo). The opposition never broke any agreement. Yanukovich wasn't forced out, he ran off in the middle of the night. And he was impeached in the Parliament because his own party turned on him.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-02 17:30:30
March 02 2014 17:29 GMT
#2634
On March 03 2014 02:26 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:24 Ramong wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

What? Sure the opposition leaders should have honored the agreement and waited for an election.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion? Putin used the excuse that the Russian people living in Crimea was in danger.
When in fact the only ones with weapons was the Russians themself.

No one was killing Russians in Crimea, Putin just want Crimea back as part of Russia


Russia is using weapons now ?

Did you not hear about the storming of the Crimean parliament?
and does the Russian army not have weapons?

Not saying anyone is dying, but the only ones who have weapons are the Russians.

The minority Ukrainians in Crimea must be terrified
"Yeah buddy"
Roman666
Profile Joined April 2012
Poland1440 Posts
March 02 2014 17:29 GMT
#2635
On March 03 2014 02:04 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 01:17 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Ukraine is preparing to defend itself against Russia, Ukrainian ambassador to UN says - @Reuters

Deputy Commander of naval base in Simferopol, Ukraine, says he will not surrender and is ready to fight - @MarquardtA

Ukraine says its navy still has full fleet of 10 ships in Crimean port of Sevastopol, which remain loyal to Kiev and have not disarmed - @Reuters


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt9efnLV4UY

“I, Denis Berezovsky, swear allegiance to the people of Crimea and undertake to protect them, as required by statute,” Berezovsky said at a press conference in Sevastopol. He was appointed to the post of Commander of the Ukrainian Naval Forces by decree of Acting President Alexander Turchinov 1 March...

Sureeeee, the navy is listening to the junta....

Ever heard of hostages?
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6342 Posts
March 02 2014 17:30 GMT
#2636
On March 03 2014 02:24 Ramong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

What? Sure the opposition leaders should have honored the agreement and waited for an election.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion? Putin used the excuse that the Russian people living in Crimea was in danger.
When in fact the only ones with weapons was the Russians themself.

No one was killing Russians in Crimea, Putin just want Crimea back as part of Russia

A referendum in Crimea about joining Russia seems like the only democratic solution

Would there have been a Russian peacekeeping force in Crimea if Kiev hadn't have been taken over by a junta? NO
This can only be put solely at the feet of the junta. The junta doesn't even control the military, the people don't want them in power.
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
March 02 2014 17:31 GMT
#2637
On March 03 2014 02:30 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:24 Ramong wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

What? Sure the opposition leaders should have honored the agreement and waited for an election.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion? Putin used the excuse that the Russian people living in Crimea was in danger.
When in fact the only ones with weapons was the Russians themself.

No one was killing Russians in Crimea, Putin just want Crimea back as part of Russia

A referendum in Crimea about joining Russia seems like the only democratic solution

Would there have been a Russian peacekeeping force in Crimea if Kiev hadn't have been taken over by a junta? NO
This can only be put solely at the feet of the junta. The junta doesn't even control the military, the people don't want them in power.


There is no such thing as the people...

And without an election how could you know what the majority wants?
"Yeah buddy"
AleXoundOS
Profile Joined January 2011
Georgia458 Posts
March 02 2014 17:32 GMT
#2638
On March 03 2014 02:24 Ramong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion?

Do you read several texts at the same time or how you get this conclusion out of the context above in quotes??
Now I understand how some people think in EU about these events.
https://bwapi.github.io - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1)
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
March 02 2014 17:33 GMT
#2639
On March 03 2014 02:32 AleXoundOS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:24 Ramong wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion?

Do you read several texts at the same time or how you get this conclusion out of the context above in quotes??
Now I understand how some people think in EU about these events.

So you would not call what is happening in Crimea as an invasion?
"Yeah buddy"
AA.spoon
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium331 Posts
March 02 2014 17:34 GMT
#2640
On March 03 2014 02:30 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2014 02:24 Ramong wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:22 zeo wrote:
On March 03 2014 02:14 AleXoundOS wrote:
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts.
What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now?
He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."

I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers.
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.

This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.

What? Sure the opposition leaders should have honored the agreement and waited for an election.

But why does that justify a Russian invasion? Putin used the excuse that the Russian people living in Crimea was in danger.
When in fact the only ones with weapons was the Russians themself.

No one was killing Russians in Crimea, Putin just want Crimea back as part of Russia

A referendum in Crimea about joining Russia seems like the only democratic solution

Would there have been a Russian peacekeeping force in Crimea if Kiev hadn't have been taken over by a junta? NO
This can only be put solely at the feet of the junta. The junta doesn't even control the military, the people don't want them in power.


Junta : A junta is a government led by a committee of military leaders.
This very clearly does not apply to Ukraine (as there was no military coup / no soldiers involved whatsoever).
You probably won't stop using the term since you are pretty much trolling this thread, zeo.
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