On March 03 2014 03:02 darkness wrote: I think Russia plays this badly in the long run. Not only are they going to be isolated from EU-US, but even Ukrainians may start hating Russia, and they're one of the closest to them. It's a big hit in my opinion if it happens.
Yeah, western Ukraine may start hating Russia even more. Lets see what happens next, will eastern&southern parts obey new Maidan's Kiev at some time or Kiev government become more legit.
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts. What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now? He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.
the way...a fascist country might? one party, one putin, one russia!
The thing is that Russian special forces have no idea about how to wage informational war, that successfully works from west.
I keep telling them to hire zeo and you, you are both quite excellent.
Haha. But really all those Russian officials are not able to state something clearly and prove with logic so that people from west could believe them at least a bit.
On March 03 2014 03:06 Ghanburighan wrote: This is a picture of the border crossing where the Russian media reported a mass exodus of refugees: + Show Spoiler +
On March 03 2014 03:02 darkness wrote: I think Russia plays this badly in the long run. Not only are they going to be isolated from EU-US, but even Ukrainians may start hating Russia, and they're one of the closest to them. It's a big hit in my opinion if it happens.
Yeah, western Ukraine may start hating Russia even more. Lets see what happens next, will eastern&southern parts obey new Maidan's Kiev at some time or Kiev government become more legit.
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts. What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now? He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."
But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.
the way...a fascist country might? one party, one putin, one russia!
The thing is that Russian special forces have no idea about how to wage informational war, that successfully works from west.
I keep telling them to hire zeo and you, you are both quite excellent.
Haha. But really all those Russian officials are not able to state something clearly and prove with logic so that people from west could believe them at least a bit.
Yes, its their inability to explain things logically and not the underlying illogical position thats the problem. "Look guys, we are just pursuing a rational policy that states we can invade any territory anywhere that has members of our race under theoretical threat from people our media spends a month declaring are all fascist nazis" Maybe at the end they can end with All Glory to Glorious Putin, the one and true Tsar! But no, that would be too clumsy. They would be clever like you. "Look we dont support Putin, but when our race is theoretically threatened by potential violence from obviously Nazis we have no choice but to launch a full scale invasion. What, you dont believe me? AMERICANS ARE EVIL TOO"
Pretty hilarious seeing S&B member John Kerry on the news talking about agression and violation from Russia considering Irak, Afganistan, Lybia, Kosovo, Palestine, etc. ... edit: UAV in Pakistan
On March 03 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote: Pretty hilarious seeing S&B member John Kerry on the news talking about agression and violation from Russia considering Irak, Afganistan, Lybia, Kosovo, Palestine, etc. ... edit: UAV in Pakistan
On March 03 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote: Pretty hilarious seeing S&B member John Kerry on the news talking about agression and violation from Russia considering Irak, Afganistan, Lybia, Kosovo, Palestine, etc. ... edit: UAV in Pakistan
Palestine?...
Is a UN violation and the US are backing it up like crazy
On March 03 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote: Pretty hilarious seeing S&B member John Kerry on the news talking about agression and violation from Russia considering Irak, Afganistan, Lybia, Kosovo, Palestine, etc. ... edit: UAV in Pakistan
But he's still able to sound convincing in contrast to Russian officials.
On March 03 2014 02:54 ImFromPortugal wrote: Ukraine navy chief switches allegiance to Crimea pro-Russia authorities, a day after he was appointed - @AFP
awkward
He was already fired today in the morning after disobeying orders. source
Earlier reports about the Ukrainian flagship switching sides were false. Once again russian propaganda. Ship is under Ukrainian control. source
Yaroslav Trofimov Wall Street Journal tweets: So far the only ethnic Russians beaten/arrested/persecuted are the ones trying to demonstrate in Moscow against the war on #Ukraine
On March 03 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote: Pretty hilarious seeing S&B member John Kerry on the news talking about agression and violation from Russia considering Irak, Afganistan, Lybia, Kosovo, Palestine, etc. ... edit: UAV in Pakistan
That aim would encourage Putin to expand his influence from Crimea into eastern Ukraine, dismissing Kiev's authority, and broadly cutting the country in two – Kiev and the west versus the east and the south.
That raises the prospect of civil war. Already, in the initial skirmishing, the tactics and the methodology that made Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic so ascendant in the Yugoslav wars of 1991-95 and Kosovo in 1998-99 (although he lost them all in the end) are evident. There is the establishing and no doubt arming of local loyal militias, new pro-Russian leaders handpicked by the Russian security services, quick referendums to lend a "democratic" veneer to pre-ordained decisions taken in Moscow, the funding of loyalist forces, the staging of "provocations" then amplified by outrage and the clamour for retaliation in the Kremlin-controlled media, the creation of parallel state structures, say, in Kharkov in the east – Ukraine's second city and its capital during the Russian civil war because it was "red" and Kiev was "white". There are also the ethnic, confessional and cultural divisions that sunder Ukraine, between the Catholic and nationalist west and the Orthodox and often pro-Russian east, also recalling Yugoslavia.
These, however, are far from insuperable problems. There is nothing inevitable about an east-west clash, given benign and careful political leadership.
But if the state is resolved to magnify these underlying tensions into a casus belli, it is easily, as Milosevic proved, accomplished.
If Putin opts to be the new Milosevic, the west will be staring a new division of Europe in the face.
On March 03 2014 02:54 ImFromPortugal wrote: Ukraine navy chief switches allegiance to Crimea pro-Russia authorities, a day after he was appointed - @AFP
awkward
He was already fired today in the morning after disobeying orders. source
Earlier reports about the Ukrainian flagship switching sides were false. Once again russian propaganda. Ship is under Ukrainian control. source
If George Orwell was still alive, he would have had twelve aneurysms already.
On March 03 2014 02:54 ImFromPortugal wrote: Ukraine navy chief switches allegiance to Crimea pro-Russia authorities, a day after he was appointed - @AFP
awkward
He was already fired today in the morning after disobeying orders. source
German media (spiegel) as well as others (Al Jazeera) are reporting he was fired, because of him not opposing Russian troops. And that he has also been charged with high treason, because of that.
The order is important - the media suggests that he first switched sides and then was fired, because of that. The way you word it is suggesting the other.
On March 03 2014 02:54 ImFromPortugal wrote: Ukraine navy chief switches allegiance to Crimea pro-Russia authorities, a day after he was appointed - @AFP
awkward
He was already fired today in the morning after disobeying orders. source
German media (spiegel) as well as others (Al Jazeera) are reporting he was fired, because of him not opposing Russian troops. And that he has also been charged with high treason, because of that.
The order is important - the media suggests that he first switched sides and then was fired, because of that. The way you word it is suggesting the other.
Early in the morning today he ordered some captains to not oppose Russians. After this he was fired. Some time later during today this happened + Show Spoiler +
, where he swore loyality to Crimean authority. This is what I thought the very first post was referencing to.
“The Sochi project to create an attractive, modern Russia may be considered closed,” commentator Alexander Baunov wrote on slon.ru. “The medieval project of gathering up territories has prevailed.” Government-controlled media are already whipping Russians into a patriotic frenzy. The strongest anti-Putin opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, has been placed under house arrest. On Sunday, police in Moscow detained several dozen people who attempted to demonstrate against a war with Ukraine.
On March 03 2014 04:53 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I don't understand why Putin could be limited in any way by US/Europe cutting ties with him. He can always turn to the Chinese, can't he?
Russia doesn't have the infrastructure to export all of its gas production to China. Plus plenty of billionaires close to Putin have assets in the west, most of which can't be moved to China. They would be kinda upset if they had to chose between supporting Putin or losing their assets. Finally, it's not like China would go out of their way to help Russia. They wouldn't join in the sanctions but as far as they're concerned the best outcome would be if everyone just stopped fighting and were nice to each other.
On March 03 2014 01:45 craaaaack wrote:[...]the countries of the west did not fulfill their promises and broke on what they agreed to do - now they have to be confronted by facts. What kind of promises did the west countries break that would legitimate what Russia is doing right now? He says: "The west did something bad and this got us mad. Now we do something bad back to them."
I explained in this thread previously that west publicly supports the maidan leaders who did not fulfill the agreement in Kiev that was witnessed by foreign ministers. But of course it's a stupid position to react with military forces to this. It just shows how weak Russia is being unable to affect the situation without forces.
This. What is happening now in Ukraine is exclusively the fault of the people running euromaidan. All the opposition leaders signed the agreement and all everyone had to do was to wait until elections. But no, because crazy radicals had long since taken over the protests they of course, broke all agreements and forcefully seized power. Sending the country into turmoil, good job euromaidan.
What? Sure the opposition leaders should have honored the agreement and waited for an election.
But why does that justify a Russian invasion? Putin used the excuse that the Russian people living in Crimea was in danger. When in fact the only ones with weapons was the Russians themself.
No one was killing Russians in Crimea, Putin just want Crimea back as part of Russia
A referendum in Crimea about joining Russia seems like the only democratic solution
Would there have been a Russian peacekeeping force in Crimea if Kiev hadn't have been taken over by a junta? NO This can only be put solely at the feet of the junta. The junta doesn't even control the military, the people don't want them in power.
There is no such thing as the people...
And without an election how could you know what the majority wants?
That guy knows everything about the current situation in Ukraine. It's the only way he could keep making baseless arguments supported by nothing for 3 days straight. The amount of presumptions this guy makes without any citations is as amazing as his need to use the word "junta" in every single one of his posts.
Yeah, I would ignore the whole "junta" thing. I've only seen two users use it here: zeo and zeomx. It's main definition means something other than what zeo is using it for, and the only alternative is something that almost all governments could be labeled as.
Is it a democratically elected government? No.
lol. The government is not elected in Ukraine. It's being approved by the Parliament. And the current government was.
Did it overthrow a democratically elected government? Yes.
No. Azarov resigned himself when Yanukovich made a decision that he should go.
EPT![[image loading]](http://echo.msk.ru/files/1136940.jpg?1393762883)
