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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
September 27 2017 18:01 GMT
#177241
In more lighthearted news, Jared Kushner might be a woman

https://www.wired.com/story/jared-kushner-voter-registration-woman
Neosteel Enthusiast
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9617 Posts
September 27 2017 18:03 GMT
#177242
he’s certainly pretty enough
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 27 2017 18:06 GMT
#177243
On another note, are all of you folk happy that news on the presidency essentially turned into a tabloid magazine? I know that our president is that sort of attention-seeking celebrity, but is that really what we want?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11501 Posts
September 27 2017 18:08 GMT
#177244
I know that it is not good internet etiquette to compare stuff to things nazis did. But maybe stop doing things the way nazis do them if that bothers you.

I stand by the point that indoctrinating your youth into a culture of obedience to the flag, a culture where even kneeling while the national anthem is playing is unthinkable, a culture where the military is raised above all is scary. It is not about saying you pledge allegiance to whatever, feel free to do that when you want to. It is about making children do that in school, every day, until it is internalized. The flag above all. Country above all. Military above all. Support our troops! Fight for god and country! Bring democracy to iraq!

If you can't see how that is scary, i don't know what to say. Except maybe read a book on the rise of the third reich. Even if you don't go that far, this is the shit that starts wars.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9617 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 18:16:56
September 27 2017 18:09 GMT
#177245
absolutely not. a total stain on the office. so much so that by the end of it i expect the ‘office of the president of the united states’ will seem fairly less important. who’s growing up right now seeing this president and thinking ‘i want to be president one day!’

but i don’t think it’s irreversible or anything. but it’s like McGwire’s baseball record with the asterisk. maybe in history there’ll be an asterisk next to his presidency, and Aaron Judge’ll come and make everyone forget about it.

botched the analogy a bit since judge beat the rookie record, which afaik there’s no footnotes to McGwire’s rookie record. but i like aaron judge so.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
September 27 2017 18:10 GMT
#177246
on the issue of pledges, aside whether it's kind of fascist or not isn't it a little bit mental to do it non-stop in ritualistic fashion? I mean if you're a very loyal person to your country why do you have to proclaim it every other day, that just sounds like a guy standing in front of the mirror telling himself how great he looks.

If you're so firm in your patriotism why do people feel so easily attacked about someone kneeling and have to put up flags everywhere?
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21661 Posts
September 27 2017 18:14 GMT
#177247
On September 28 2017 03:10 Nyxisto wrote:
on the issue of pledges, aside whether it's kind of fascist or not isn't it a little bit mental to do it non-stop in ritualistic fashion? I mean if you're a very loyal person to your country why do you have to proclaim it every other day, that just sounds like a guy standing in front of the mirror telling himself how great he looks.

If you're so firm in your patriotism why do people feel so easily attacked about someone kneeling and have to put up flags everywhere?

The word your looking for is indoctrination.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 27 2017 18:25 GMT
#177248
On September 28 2017 03:08 Simberto wrote:
I know that it is not good internet etiquette to compare stuff to things nazis did. But maybe stop doing things the way nazis do them if that bothers you.

It's not about etiquette, it's about being hyperbolic and wrong. It's a naively reductionist approach to instantly jump to the most dangerous groups you could think of for something like that.

On September 28 2017 03:08 Simberto wrote:
I stand by the point that indoctrinating your youth into a culture of obedience to the flag, a culture where even kneeling while the national anthem is playing is unthinkable, a culture where the military is raised above all is scary. It is not about saying you pledge allegiance to whatever, feel free to do that when you want to. It is about making children do that in school, every day, until it is internalized. The flag above all. Country above all. Military above all. Support our troops! Fight for god and country! Bring democracy to iraq!

I can actually sort of sympathize with that. It definitely is sort of scary. Another American tradition I could see in a similar light within its religious sphere that bothers me is the "God is my shepherd" proclamations. If you think about it that's scary; that you are a sheep to be fattened up and then slaughtered at your master's whim. But then you go overboard:

On September 28 2017 03:08 Simberto wrote:
If you can't see how that is scary, i don't know what to say. Except maybe read a book on the rise of the third reich. Even if you don't go that far, this is the shit that starts wars.

Yeah, this is well over the line. Surface-level similarities, or even common sympathies towards nationalist movements, do not imply fascism. Keep your shit in perspective. A lot of things the Nazis did are not essential to a fascist movement, only incidental.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8982 Posts
September 27 2017 18:26 GMT
#177249
On September 28 2017 03:10 Nyxisto wrote:
on the issue of pledges, aside whether it's kind of fascist or not isn't it a little bit mental to do it non-stop in ritualistic fashion? I mean if you're a very loyal person to your country why do you have to proclaim it every other day, that just sounds like a guy standing in front of the mirror telling himself how great he looks.

If you're so firm in your patriotism why do people feel so easily attacked about someone kneeling and have to put up flags everywhere?

I think a lot of it has to do with a very, very narrow world view. Most of these people have either never left the city they were born in, never left the state, fear big cities, or never left the country. People who travel or interact with nationalities or have experience with different cultures, can see what's wrong with the country or what needs to be made better.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 18:35:55
September 27 2017 18:27 GMT
#177250
On September 28 2017 03:10 Nyxisto wrote:
on the issue of pledges, aside whether it's kind of fascist or not isn't it a little bit mental to do it non-stop in ritualistic fashion? I mean if you're a very loyal person to your country why do you have to proclaim it every other day, that just sounds like a guy standing in front of the mirror telling himself how great he looks.

Yeah, fascism aside, the ritual is sort of interesting and worth questioning. Without hyperbole, preferably.

A big part of the debate within the US focuses on the merits or lack thereof of "Under God."
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 27 2017 18:32 GMT
#177251
On September 28 2017 02:04 Velr wrote:
Having the national Anthem and all the other stuff isn't something sportsleagues do... Except in the US and, well, dictatorships?
I get why you like it but being triggered because someone is kneeling(!!!!) during or even before it paints a pretty facist picture.

Where’s our Canadian brothers and “O Canada?”

Or are they seeking to remove their own fascist and political flag and anthem so would rather not pipe up now?
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 27 2017 18:36 GMT
#177252
MONTGOMERY, Ala. — Insurgent Roy Moore’s rout of incumbent GOP Sen. Luther Strange in Alabama’s special election Tuesday has senior Republicans bracing for a wave of resource-draining primaries across the map that could undermine their best-laid plans to defeat Democrats in 2018.

Moore’s win — over an incumbent who benefited from millions of dollars in spending by a super PAC aligned with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell — is certain to provide fuel for conservative challengers lining up to take on sitting senators in states like Arizona, Nevada and Mississippi.

The result was a major setback for President Donald Trump, who went all-in for Strange in a state where the commander-in-chief is overwhelmingly popular. And it emboldened Trump’s former chief strategist, Steve Bannon, who said the Alabama race is the opening front in a pitched midterm war against GOP incumbents — and an opportunity to undermine his nemesis, McConnell. After the race was called, Bannon stood backstage with Moore as the victorious candidate prayed.

As he introduced Moore at Tuesday’s victory party, Bannon made clear that he was looking far beyond Alabama, which he called the start of a “revolution.”

“You’re going to see in state, after state, after state, people that follow the model of Judge Moore — that do not need to raise money from the elites, from the crony capitalists, from the fat cats in Washington, D.C.,” Bannon said. The race, he added, centered on the question of “who was sovereign — the people or the money — and Alabama answered today, the people.”

It’s “a huge win for the conservative movement, a great awakening,” said Chris McDaniel, a Mississippi Republican who is weighing a primary challenge to Sen. Roger Wicker. If the archconservative Moore could survive the McConnell-led offensive, McDaniel added, “then it can be said with confidence that the GOP establishment's stranglehold on American politics is finally coming to an end. It should encourage conservative challengers all across the republic.”

McConnell himself has expressed profound worries about primaries and the impact they could have on his party’s 2018 prospects. In the weeks leading up to the Alabama runoff, the Republican leader privately predicted that a Moore win would stoke insurgent bids across the country.

It's far from certain that other primary candidates can pull off what Moore did. The controversial former judge, who rose to national fame after defying a federal order to remove a monument of the Ten Commandments from a state building, is an established figure in Alabama who has a substantial following, particularly among social conservatives. And Strange's appointment was clouded by controversy over questions of impropriety, which he denied.

But either way, Republican Party leadership has a big problem on its hands. McConnell has vowed to do everything in his power to help incumbents win primaries, but that protection effort is likely to cost the party many millions of dollars.

It’s disappointing news for the GOP hierarchy, which initially believed that it would spend the midterms on offense. Going into 2018, 23 Democratic-held Senate seats were up for grabs, compared with just nine Republican ones. Republicans were convinced they had a golden opportunity to expand the majority they won in 2014 and retained in 2016.

Conservative primary challengers are looking to tap into the same anti-establishment fever that drove Trump’s presidential campaign. And, just as it did during the 2016 campaign, there are early indications that it is taking a toll on the mainstream wing of the party. Exacerbating matters is the party's trouble passing major legislation despite control of the White House and both chambers of Congress.

On Tuesday, veteran GOP Sen. Bob Corker announced that he wouldn’t run for reelection next year. Corker had drawn a potential challenger in state Sen. Mark Green, who, like McDaniel, has been in talks with Bannon. After attending a get-out-the-vote rally for Moore on Monday, Bannon, Green and McDaniel spoke until 1 a.m.

Bannon, who spent several days on the ground in Alabama, worked behind the scenes to marshal conservative support for Moore. In meetings with movement leaders, he cast the race as a defining battle between conservatives and the establishment. He urged them to focus not on House races for the time being, but on Senate primaries — and on launching a battle against McConnell.

Other big-name conservatives are getting in on the anti-incumbent effort. Radio show host Laura Ingraham has thrown her support to Arizona Republican Kelli Ward, who is trying to unseat Sen. Jeff Flake. Ingraham is expected to host an Oct. 17 fundraising event for Ward that is likely to draw a number of major donors, including jewelry company owner Bill Doddridge, financial services entrepreneur Hank Seale, and construction executive Martin Harmon.

Ward, who is leading Flake in polls, said she hoped Moore’s win would give her a further boost.

“I’m starting to not think of myself as the insurgent in this race,” she said. “I’m starting to think of myself as the front-runner.”

If McConnell had hoped his investment in Strange would deter 2018 primary challengers, his failure could have the opposite effect. By the time the Alabama runoff was over, the McConnell-controlled National Republican Senatorial Committee had dispatched dozens of staffers and a super PAC aligned with the majority leader had plowed millions of dollars into TV ads assailing Moore.

To top it off, McConnell had worked to persuade the White House to intervene in the race. None of it could save Strange.

As the results trickled in on Tuesday evening, some GOP donors and operatives said they wanted to know why the party had spent so much and fallen so short.

“It bodes very well for us because it shows that an incumbent U.S. senator, even with $9 million from McConnell’s super PAC, can lose reelection,” said Nevada Republican Danny Tarkanian, who is challenging Sen. Dean Heller.

Moore’s win also raises other challenging questions for the party. McConnell has privately voiced concern about the prospect that Moore, a hard-right figure, will face a competitive December general election against the Democratic nominee, former U.S. Attorney Doug Jones. It remains unclear whether the national party, which invested so heavily in Strange’s campaign, will need to expend resources to get Moore over the finish line.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 27 2017 18:38 GMT
#177253
On September 28 2017 03:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Moore’s win — over an incumbent who benefited from millions of dollars in spending by a super PAC aligned with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell — is certain to provide fuel for conservative challengers lining up to take on sitting senators in states like Arizona, Nevada and Mississippi.

This is actually perhaps a lesson the Democrats can take to heart: you can actually overcome a monetary deficit, as long as you have a movement people are willing to stand behind. And if your movement is actually more worthy than Moore's - well shouldn't that make it even easier?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42607 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 18:40:54
September 27 2017 18:39 GMT
#177254
On September 28 2017 03:27 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 03:10 Nyxisto wrote:
on the issue of pledges, aside whether it's kind of fascist or not isn't it a little bit mental to do it non-stop in ritualistic fashion? I mean if you're a very loyal person to your country why do you have to proclaim it every other day, that just sounds like a guy standing in front of the mirror telling himself how great he looks.

Yeah, fascism aside, the ritual is sort of interesting and worth questioning. Without hyperbole, preferably.

This entire conversation would be a whole lot easier if you could accept that calling something fascist does not mean "OMG GUYS THIS IS LITERALLY HITLER!" and cease turning every mention of it into an absurd straw man which you proceed to valiantly battle to the frustration of everyone else.

The doctrine of submission of the individual (in terms of their individual identity, needs, beliefs and priorities) into the greater Volk is a fundamentally fascist concept. There's no getting around that. In a free society the individual believes that the nation has value because individuals have value and the nation is composed of such individuals. Fascism reverses that, instead arguing that the Volk alone has value, that the nation embodies the Volk, and therefore the individual is worthless beyond their ability to serve the nation. Allegiance to the concept of the nation, and obedience to the great leader, is the only true virtue and the only way in which the intrinsic value of the nation may be passed down and fill the individual.

Hopefully you can understand why that's not in any way specific to the Nazis and is a fundamental philosophical divide.

The pledge of allegiance, and the indoctrination of schoolchildren with it, does not teach young Americans that it is their freely given participation within the nation that makes the nation worthy of their adoration. Rather it teaches young Americans that the nation is worthy of their adoration and therefore their own virtue depends upon their submission to it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15677 Posts
September 27 2017 18:44 GMT
#177255
On September 28 2017 03:38 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 03:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Moore’s win — over an incumbent who benefited from millions of dollars in spending by a super PAC aligned with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell — is certain to provide fuel for conservative challengers lining up to take on sitting senators in states like Arizona, Nevada and Mississippi.

This is actually perhaps a lesson the Democrats can take to heart: you can actually overcome a monetary deficit, as long as you have a movement people are willing to stand behind. And if your movement is actually more worthy than Moore's - well shouldn't that make it even easier?


Facebook and the internet in general make these kinds of grassroots movements a lot easier than people realize. Bernie was basically the Reddit/Facebook candidate.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 27 2017 18:47 GMT
#177256
On September 28 2017 03:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 03:38 LegalLord wrote:
On September 28 2017 03:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Moore’s win — over an incumbent who benefited from millions of dollars in spending by a super PAC aligned with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell — is certain to provide fuel for conservative challengers lining up to take on sitting senators in states like Arizona, Nevada and Mississippi.

This is actually perhaps a lesson the Democrats can take to heart: you can actually overcome a monetary deficit, as long as you have a movement people are willing to stand behind. And if your movement is actually more worthy than Moore's - well shouldn't that make it even easier?


Facebook and the internet in general make these kinds of grassroots movements a lot easier than people realize. Bernie was basically the Reddit/Facebook candidate.

Personal phone calls, a small postcard, and maybe even some door to door visits aren't even expensive either. But it's clearly beyond my local Democrats. And it would have made a difference and probably tipped the scales.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 18:50:06
September 27 2017 18:49 GMT
#177257
On September 28 2017 03:32 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 02:04 Velr wrote:
Having the national Anthem and all the other stuff isn't something sportsleagues do... Except in the US and, well, dictatorships?
I get why you like it but being triggered because someone is kneeling(!!!!) during or even before it paints a pretty facist picture.

Where’s our Canadian brothers and “O Canada?”

Or are they seeking to remove their own fascist and political flag and anthem so would rather not pipe up now?

Hey. Sup.

We started doing it because of the Star Spangled Banner being sung at NHL games. So like all Canadian traditions, it comes from hockey. And we really just sing the anthem, no hand on heart, no saluting or standing at attention to the flag.

It's probably ingrained enough in tradition that people will throw a fit if these leagues stopped doing it, but not enough that it'll spark national outrage.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 18:55:43
September 27 2017 18:53 GMT
#177258
On September 28 2017 02:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Y'all need to learn to prioritize things that are actually important. Like Hockey and Poutine.

You know, if you had said hockey and Putin then maybe you would have a point.

On September 28 2017 03:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:
And we really just sing the anthem, no hand on heart, no saluting or standing at attention to the flag.

In practice, standing at attention is the only thing that you will really get shit for not doing. And honestly, I don't see it as that big a deal. It's just one of those traditions the country has that doesn't really bother me.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 27 2017 18:57 GMT
#177259
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 27 2017 18:59 GMT
#177260
On September 28 2017 03:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/DavidBegnaud/status/913088574983168000

Puerto Rico has never been known for industrial efficiency.
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