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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8861

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22291 Posts
September 27 2017 15:46 GMT
#177201
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here


I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

yes please continue to avoid the point.

If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43959 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 15:57:51
September 27 2017 15:49 GMT
#177202
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

Surely that ought to be an easy concession to make towards the left. If the right were pushing for a demilitarization of the war on Christmas I wouldn't fight them on that. If someone offers you an open goal you take the shot.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45707 Posts
September 27 2017 15:53 GMT
#177203
An informative and unbiased article describing the #TakeAKnee situation right now, and this is an especially great resource for teachers who are having open dialogues with students... they ask just as many questions- and have just as strong opinions- as the adults. And they need to be well-informed, because they'll be voting and leading the country before we know it.

Discussing #TakeAKnee in Class
With the spotlight once again on the act of kneeling during the national anthem, students will bring this conversation to the classroom. Here’s how to guide that discussion.

Within the lines of the First Amendment, there is room. Room to stand—or kneel—for self-defined virtues and constitutionally defined rights. Room for interpretation. Room for context. Room for growth.

But in the classroom, there is little margin for error by omission. As professional athletes and allies #TakeAKnee, educators may not have the option to sit out the discussion surrounding peaceful protests during the national anthem.

The conversation intensified over the weekend. With endless debate appearing on sports and news networks and on social media platforms, students will bring that conversation to the classroom.

Here’s the context you need to teach this moment and connect it to the United States’ history of peaceful protest and opposition.

Why are people taking a knee during the national anthem?
At the beginning of the NFL’s 2016 season, Colin Kaepernick, then a quarterback with the San Francisco 49ers, took a knee during the “Star Spangled Banner.” When asked why he kneeled during the anthem, Kaepernick stated, “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. ... There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.”

Kaepernick's decision to kneel, rather than sit on the bench, was inspired by a conversation with a former NFL player and Green Beret who saw it as a more respectful gesture toward the military.

In keeping with a long tradition of athletes protesting social issues, Kaepernick decided to use his platform to draw attention to police violence against people of color and the lack of accountability for police officers. Since then, Kaepernick has received both widespread support and criticism for his chosen form of protest. Now, a year later, Kaepernick finds himself without a team for the season amidst allegations that he is being blackballed from the NFL for his beliefs. Many players, including international athletes, have decided to kneel in solidarity with Kaepernick and otherwise show support. And the protest has spread to the larger realm of sports: from baseball to peewee football and high school soccer.

The protests escalated this past weekend after President Trump encouraged owners of NFL teams to fire players who refused to stand during the national anthem. Ben Watson, a tight end for the Baltimore Ravens, was one of the players who protested this past weekend. “Obviously, the name-calling is something we don't [stand] for,” he said, “but even to imply that we don't have the right to express ourselves in that way is something that we really took to heart.” Entire teams refused to come onto the field for the anthem; others knelt en masse. For the first time since the beginning of the protest, team owners and coaches linked arms and protested with their players as a show of collective action to shine attention on the original message: the unjust killing of people of color and the lack of accountability for police officers who commit these acts.

How is this form of protest connected to protests from the past?
#TakeAKnee has direct ties to the civil rights movement of the 1950s and ‘60s. For example, the civil rights campaign in Birmingham, Alabama, was effective in large part because of its public nature. Television viewers around the world could see nonviolent protesters being brutalized by police officers using water hoses, dogs, and billy clubs. The same goes for peaceful protesters in Selma. In both of these moments, the catalyst for change was television. Today, much of Sunday television is dominated by full-day coverage of NFL games on major networks and sports channels. Today’s protests, much like those of the past, are meant to encourage meaningful dialogue and action by making viewers uncomfortable. As with protests of the past, that discomfort isn’t a bad thing.

Backlash to the civil rights activism often led to threats and very real acts of violence, surges in white supremacist ideals and imagery, and an outpour of “us versus them” rhetoric. Today, resistance comes in the forms of demanding protesters be fired and changing the narrative of the protest to be about the American flag and U.S. troops and veterans, as opposed to police brutality and injustice against people of color.

Protests have almost always been met with resistance. For example, a 1961 Gallup poll found that 61 percent of respondents disapproved of the Freedom Rides, and 57 percent believed that civil rights demonstrations hurt the integration cause. In many ways, that resistance is the point. Change usually occurs through these clashes of ideals. Civil rights activism of the past shares an underlying theme with today’s activism: Injustice can only be ignored for so long before everyone has to face it, whether it’s on the nightly news or during a Sunday NFL broadcast.

Discussion Questions
1. Why might an athlete choose to participate in this form of protest? Why might an athlete choose not to participate?
2. Is there a “proper” time or place for engaging in collective action? What’s the significance of this action taking place at sporting events?
3. The concerns raised by Colin Kaepernick aren’t new, so why are these protests sparking such attention now?
4. How does this form of collective action connect to past movements?
5. What role might empathy play in helping people to understand the oppression at the center of these protests?
6. What could people do beyond taking a knee to help address the concerns behind that action?
https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/discussing-takeaknee-in-class
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 27 2017 16:05 GMT
#177204
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

Please take the time to read posts or cease complaining that other people don’t read yours. Thank you in advance.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 27 2017 16:05 GMT
#177205
On September 28 2017 00:46 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

yes please continue to avoid the point.

If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games.


So if that's what you want.

Let's talk about the execution.

You need people to bring that up and apparently load of people here wants to be as disruptive as possible to make their political statement.

So you will go through a vetting system, which will most likely not get passed through in the NFL management to not alienate people that wants the flag there due to profit reason.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 27 2017 16:10 GMT
#177206
There is nothing disruptive about kneeling during the anthem. It is respectful, silent and harms no one. It maybe the best modern example of non-violent protest.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
September 27 2017 16:17 GMT
#177207
On September 28 2017 00:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Do we have anyone here see Roy Moore as a net positive over the guy he just ejected? This honestly sounds like it goes a few steps beyond what I normally see people advocating for here:

Show nested quote +

After two failed gubernatorial bids, Moore was elected for a second six-year term as chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court in 2012. Again, he invoked the Bible during his swearing-in ceremony.

“We’ve got to remember that most of what we do in court comes from some Scripture or is backed by Scripture,” Moore said after taking the oath of office.

Again, the panel ousted him — this time, in 2016, permanently — after Moore reportedly urged state judges to defy the U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized same-sex marriage. Moore has compared homosexuality to bestiality and called it “an inherent evil against which children must be protected.”

Moore does not celebrate all religions. This summer, he called Islam a “false religion” on the campaign trail.


Show nested quote +


"I think homosexuality should be illegal," Moore said. "Sodomy was declared illegal by the United States Supreme Court in 1987, it said there was no right under the constitution to enlarge the fundamental rights of homosexuals."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/09/27/a-short-history-of-roy-moores-controversial-interpretations-of-the-bible/


Yeah, he sounds like a whole lot more fun.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 27 2017 16:20 GMT
#177208
On September 28 2017 01:10 Plansix wrote:
There is nothing disruptive about kneeling during the anthem. It is respectful, silent and harms no one. It maybe the best modern example of non-violent protest.


Talking about removing the anthem here and it is absolutely divisive.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 16:25:47
September 27 2017 16:24 GMT
#177209
On September 28 2017 01:20 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 01:10 Plansix wrote:
There is nothing disruptive about kneeling during the anthem. It is respectful, silent and harms no one. It maybe the best modern example of non-violent protest.


Talking about removing the anthem here and it is absolutely divisive.

That was in response to your post about wanting “politics out of sports”. We were providing the ultimate solution to the problem. Plenty of sports do not play the anthem.

If someone wants the anthem but doesn't want protests, they don't want "no politics in sports". They want their politics in sports at the exclusion of other people's politics.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35172 Posts
September 27 2017 16:25 GMT
#177210
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

My mistake, the anthem. It's all the same shit to me.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 27 2017 16:27 GMT
#177211
On September 28 2017 01:25 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

My mistake, the anthem. It's all the same shit to me.

Precisely what I wanted to know from you. Thanks.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43959 Posts
September 27 2017 16:31 GMT
#177212
On September 28 2017 01:24 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 01:20 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 28 2017 01:10 Plansix wrote:
There is nothing disruptive about kneeling during the anthem. It is respectful, silent and harms no one. It maybe the best modern example of non-violent protest.


Talking about removing the anthem here and it is absolutely divisive.

That was in response to your post about wanting “politics out of sports”. We were providing the ultimate solution to the problem. Plenty of sports do not play the anthem.

If someone wants the anthem but doesn't want protests, they don't want "no politics in sports". They want their politics in sports at the exclusion of other people's politics.

It's baffling to me that people can be so oblivious to the non neutral position of the status quo. If removing the national anthem is a political stance by definition retaining it must also be a political stance. And yet somehow this is lost on a lot of people.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22291 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 16:34:10
September 27 2017 16:32 GMT
#177213
On September 28 2017 01:05 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 00:46 Gorsameth wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

yes please continue to avoid the point.

If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games.


So if that's what you want.

Let's talk about the execution.

You need people to bring that up and apparently load of people here wants to be as disruptive as possible to make their political statement.

So you will go through a vetting system, which will most likely not get passed through in the NFL management to not alienate people that wants the flag there due to profit reason.

Let me walk you through the conversation here (note also that removing the anthem isn't my standpoint. I'm just trying to get Danglers (and you) to answer a question someone else posted.

Someone made a political statement during a sport event.
The right answered with "I don't want politics during my sport" (and a lot of disrespect stuff but lets ignore that for now)
The left goes "ok, if you want politics out of sports then we should also remove the anthem because it itself is a political statement, are you ok with that?"

so, are you ok with that?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 27 2017 16:37 GMT
#177214
On September 28 2017 01:31 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 01:24 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 01:20 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 28 2017 01:10 Plansix wrote:
There is nothing disruptive about kneeling during the anthem. It is respectful, silent and harms no one. It maybe the best modern example of non-violent protest.


Talking about removing the anthem here and it is absolutely divisive.

That was in response to your post about wanting “politics out of sports”. We were providing the ultimate solution to the problem. Plenty of sports do not play the anthem.

If someone wants the anthem but doesn't want protests, they don't want "no politics in sports". They want their politics in sports at the exclusion of other people's politics.

It's baffling to me that people can be so oblivious to the non neutral position of the status quo. If removing the national anthem is a political stance by definition retaining it must also be a political stance. And yet somehow this is lost on a lot of people.

People have a hard time grasping the concept that avoiding having a political stance is, in reality, a political stance. The act of avoiding political conflict is a passive endorsement of the status quo. That doesn’t make it wrong or bad, just a point of view with equal weight to protesting.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 27 2017 16:40 GMT
#177215
On September 28 2017 01:32 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 01:05 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:46 Gorsameth wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

yes please continue to avoid the point.

If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games.


So if that's what you want.

Let's talk about the execution.

You need people to bring that up and apparently load of people here wants to be as disruptive as possible to make their political statement.

So you will go through a vetting system, which will most likely not get passed through in the NFL management to not alienate people that wants the flag there due to profit reason.

Let me walk you through the conversation here (note also that removing the anthem isn't my standpoint. I'm just trying to get Danglers (and you) to answer a question someone else posted.

Someone made a political statement during a sport event.
The right answered with "I don't want politics during my sport" (and a lot of disrespect stuff but lets ignore that for now)
The left goes "ok, if you want politics out of sports then we should also remove the anthem because it itself is a political statement, are you ok with that?"

so, are you ok with that?


All I want is the country is to come unifying and the flag/anthem are part of the glue that hold us together.

But if you think that removing of the two would help the country to unify together, you are free to protest for it.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9641 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 16:44:40
September 27 2017 16:41 GMT
#177216
On September 28 2017 01:40 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 01:32 Gorsameth wrote:
On September 28 2017 01:05 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:46 Gorsameth wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

yes please continue to avoid the point.

If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games.


So if that's what you want.

Let's talk about the execution.

You need people to bring that up and apparently load of people here wants to be as disruptive as possible to make their political statement.

So you will go through a vetting system, which will most likely not get passed through in the NFL management to not alienate people that wants the flag there due to profit reason.

Let me walk you through the conversation here (note also that removing the anthem isn't my standpoint. I'm just trying to get Danglers (and you) to answer a question someone else posted.

Someone made a political statement during a sport event.
The right answered with "I don't want politics during my sport" (and a lot of disrespect stuff but lets ignore that for now)
The left goes "ok, if you want politics out of sports then we should also remove the anthem because it itself is a political statement, are you ok with that?"

so, are you ok with that?


All I want is the country is to come unifying and the flag/anthem are part of the glue that hold us together.

But if you think that removing of the two would help the country to unify together, you are free to protest for it.


so in answer to the question, it is indeed only your politics you think belong in sports? ‘don’t put words in my mouth that’s mean’

inviting you to use your own but dodging questions like oj on the stand
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1961 Posts
September 27 2017 16:42 GMT
#177217
You should get rid of your nationalism not only in sports. I mean, Germany is maybe not the best example of healthy amount of national pride, but finding a more moderate position on all of that might be good for you
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 27 2017 16:46 GMT
#177218
On September 28 2017 01:41 brian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2017 01:40 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 28 2017 01:32 Gorsameth wrote:
On September 28 2017 01:05 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:46 Gorsameth wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:
On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
On September 27 2017 23:35 RealityIsKing wrote:
Dave Rubin summarized the NFL situation perfectly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNvlbLeFVA

I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events.

The pledge is not present at any sporting events.

All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved.

Remove what’s not present. Right.

yes please continue to avoid the point.

If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games.


So if that's what you want.

Let's talk about the execution.

You need people to bring that up and apparently load of people here wants to be as disruptive as possible to make their political statement.

So you will go through a vetting system, which will most likely not get passed through in the NFL management to not alienate people that wants the flag there due to profit reason.

Let me walk you through the conversation here (note also that removing the anthem isn't my standpoint. I'm just trying to get Danglers (and you) to answer a question someone else posted.

Someone made a political statement during a sport event.
The right answered with "I don't want politics during my sport" (and a lot of disrespect stuff but lets ignore that for now)
The left goes "ok, if you want politics out of sports then we should also remove the anthem because it itself is a political statement, are you ok with that?"

so, are you ok with that?


All I want is the country is to come unifying and the flag/anthem are part of the glue that hold us together.

But if you think that removing of the two would help the country to unify together, you are free to protest for it.


so in answer to the question, it is indeed only your politics you think belong in sports?

dodging questions like oj on the stand


If you want to remove the unifying symbolism for the country, go for it.

But don't be dumbfounded of the repercussion.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9641 Posts
September 27 2017 16:52 GMT
#177219
i mean you must be missing the entire point of the protest to continue claiming it is the lone unifier of the country

hey congrats on the new icon tho !!
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 27 2017 16:52 GMT
#177220
The flag, anthem and pledge have never been a universal unifying force. They are like every other part of our history, varied, complex and with changing implications with context.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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