|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Anyone who says, "no politics in sports" is willfully ignorant.
Politics has been and always will be inextricably intertwined with sports. It's been this way for decades.
"No politics in sports" is just an ironic plea for a safe space from being held accountable for one's political opinions.
If you want to remove the unifying symbolism for the country, go for it.
But don't be dumbfounded of the repercussion.
The American flag and national anthem have consistently been divisive and controversial. Just look at all of the protests throughout the decades with flag burning and the resulting controversy, or the entire concept of the Confederate Flag being celebrated in the south.
|
Having the national Anthem and all the other stuff isn't something sportsleagues do... Except in the US and, well, dictatorships?
I get why you like it but being triggered because someone is kneeling(!!!!) during or even before it paints a pretty facist picture.
|
On September 28 2017 02:04 Velr wrote:
Having the national Anthem and all the other stuff isn't something sportsleagues do... Except in the US and, well, dictatorships?
I get why you like it but being triggered because someone is kneeling(!!!!) during or even before it paints a pretty facist picture.
A lot of the shit that the U.S. does is pseudo-fascist.
All 13 years of my childhood education involved me standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance in class. Hope that paints an adequate picture.
|
On September 28 2017 02:04 Velr wrote:
Having the national Anthem and all the other stuff isn't something sportsleagues do... Except in the US and, well, dictatorships?
I get why you like it but being triggered because someone is kneeling(!!!!) during or even before it paints a pretty facist picture.
Take a look at who is agitated by it and who isn't. And if you can, their political leanings. Should tell you more than enough about the current state of affairs in the US.
Every liberal/dem/lefty I know, don't really care. And this includes military personnel who have a history of leaning right.
|
![[image loading]](https://am11.akamaized.net/med/cnt/uploads/2017/09/Screen-Shot-2017-09-27-at-11.44.55-AM.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://am12.akamaized.net/med/cnt/uploads/2017/09/Screen-Shot-2017-09-27-at-12.01.26-PM.jpg)
The story linked to by drudge there has this section
President Donald Trump and congressional Republicans are proposing a tax plan that they say will be simple and fair.
In a document obtained by The Associated Press on Wednesday, they outline a blueprint for almost doubling the standard deduction for married taxpayers filing jointly to $24,000, and $12,000 for individuals.
The plan calls for cutting the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 20 percent. The GOP proposal also calls for reducing the number of tax brackets from seven to three with a surcharge on the wealthiest Americans.
The plan also leaves intact the deduction for mortgage interest and charitable deductions.
The White House and Republicans plan a formal roll out later Wednesday.
apnews.com
|
On September 28 2017 01:46 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 01:41 brian wrote:On September 28 2017 01:40 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 28 2017 01:32 Gorsameth wrote:On September 28 2017 01:05 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 28 2017 00:46 Gorsameth wrote:On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:On September 27 2017 23:49 Gahlo wrote:
[quote]
I'll take the "I watch sports to escape politics." seriously when the same people want to remove the pledge from sporting events. The pledge is not present at any sporting events. All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved. Remove what’s not present. Right. yes please continue to avoid the point. If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games. So if that's what you want. Let's talk about the execution. You need people to bring that up and apparently load of people here wants to be as disruptive as possible to make their political statement. So you will go through a vetting system, which will most likely not get passed through in the NFL management to not alienate people that wants the flag there due to profit reason. Let me walk you through the conversation here (note also that removing the anthem isn't my standpoint. I'm just trying to get Danglers (and you) to answer a question someone else posted. Someone made a political statement during a sport event. The right answered with "I don't want politics during my sport" (and a lot of disrespect stuff but lets ignore that for now) The left goes "ok, if you want politics out of sports then we should also remove the anthem because it itself is a political statement, are you ok with that?" so, are you ok with that? All I want is the country is to come unifying and the flag/anthem are part of the glue that hold us together. But if you think that removing of the two would help the country to unify together, you are free to protest for it. so in answer to the question, it is indeed only your politics you think belong in sports? dodging questions like oj on the stand If you want to remove the unifying symbolism for the country, go for it. But don't be dumbfounded of the repercussion.
A) This is not the point. The point being made is that the "politics out of sport" people don't actually want politics out of sport. They want politics which are not their own politics out of sport. Flag & Anthem are definitively political. Military ads are political. Yet these are not a problem for the "politics out of sport" people.
A guy doing the most civil protest possible is a problem to them.
The logical conclusion is that it is not about "politics out of sports", it is about "I don't like that guys politics, make him go away".
Because if you actually were for "politics out of sports", you would also be for removing the flag and anthem, the military ads, etc...
B) There are a lot of countries that work perfectly well without that much flag and anthem stuff. Germany has barely any flag and anthem stuff going on, and we still exist as a nation, and are probably less divided then the US.
In fact, to me the US obsession with their flag and anthem evokes pretty scary associations in me. It feels militaristic and nationalistic to me. You only need a strong leader to lead your one nation under god and make america great again. We had that phase in our national history, too. Doesn't turn out well.
On September 28 2017 02:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 02:04 Velr wrote:
Having the national Anthem and all the other stuff isn't something sportsleagues do... Except in the US and, well, dictatorships?
I get why you like it but being triggered because someone is kneeling(!!!!) during or even before it paints a pretty facist picture. A lot of the shit that the U.S. does is pseudo-fascist. All 13 years of my childhood education involved me standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance in class. Hope that paints an adequate picture.
The fuck? That is scary.
|
On September 28 2017 01:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:Anyone who says, "no politics in sports" is willfully ignorant. Politics has been and always will be inextricably intertwined with sports. It's been this way for decades. "No politics in sports" is just an ironic plea for a safe space from being held accountable for one's political opinions. Show nested quote +If you want to remove the unifying symbolism for the country, go for it.
But don't be dumbfounded of the repercussion. The American flag and national anthem have consistently been divisive and controversial. Just look at all of the protests throughout the decades with flag burning and the resulting controversy, or the entire concept of the Confederate Flag being celebrated in the south.
“There I was, the black grandson of a slave, the son of a black sharecropper, part of a historic occasion, a symbolic hero to my people. The air was sparkling. The sunlight was warm. The band struck up the national anthem. The flag billowed in the wind. It should have been a glorious moment for me as the stirring words of the national anthem poured from the stands. Perhaps, it was, but then again, perhaps, the anthem could be called the theme song for a drama called The Noble Experiment. Today, as I look back on that opening game of my first world series, I must tell you that it was Mr. Rickey’s drama and that I was only a principal actor. As I write this twenty years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world. In 1972, in 1947, at my birth in 1919, I know that I never had it made.”
---Jackie Robinson, in his autobiography I Never Had It Made
That in 1972 a man, who played sports for years, felt the same way as a man in 2015/16 should speak volumes about the lack of progress on the issues that brought us to this point.
|
On September 28 2017 02:12 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 01:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:Anyone who says, "no politics in sports" is willfully ignorant. Politics has been and always will be inextricably intertwined with sports. It's been this way for decades. "No politics in sports" is just an ironic plea for a safe space from being held accountable for one's political opinions. If you want to remove the unifying symbolism for the country, go for it.
But don't be dumbfounded of the repercussion. The American flag and national anthem have consistently been divisive and controversial. Just look at all of the protests throughout the decades with flag burning and the resulting controversy, or the entire concept of the Confederate Flag being celebrated in the south. “There I was, the black grandson of a slave, the son of a black sharecropper, part of a historic occasion, a symbolic hero to my people. The air was sparkling. The sunlight was warm. The band struck up the national anthem. The flag billowed in the wind. It should have been a glorious moment for me as the stirring words of the national anthem poured from the stands. Perhaps, it was, but then again, perhaps, the anthem could be called the theme song for a drama called The Noble Experiment. Today, as I look back on that opening game of my first world series, I must tell you that it was Mr. Rickey’s drama and that I was only a principal actor. As I write this twenty years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world. In 1972, in 1947, at my birth in 1919, I know that I never had it made.” ---Jackie Robinson, in his autobiography I Never Had It Made That in 1972 a man, who played sports for years, felt the same way as a man in 2015/16 should speak volumes about the lack of progress on the issues that brought us to this point.
And many of the same kinds of people are telling them to hide their protests in much the same way.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Standing for the pledge of allegiance is pseudo-fascist now? Holy fuck, give me a break.
|
On September 28 2017 02:14 LegalLord wrote:
Standing for the pledge of allegiance is pseudo-fascist now? Holy fuck, give me a break.
nice misrepresentation; the concern is requiring it of children as a form of indoctrination, not standing per se.
please don't strawman the points made so often.
|
United States42605 Posts
On September 28 2017 02:14 LegalLord wrote:
Standing for the pledge of allegiance is pseudo-fascist now? Holy fuck, give me a break.
Now? No. This isn't some new thing since Trump took over. Also you're outing yourself as alien to the culture of the nations you pretend to be from right now.On July 19 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 02:50 Klondikebar wrote:
The teach obedience, repetition, and response to a bell. Highschool was originally designed with the assumption that you'd go work in a factory. You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. Also don't strawman so hard. You'll hurt yourself.
|
We should also remember that children must attend school by law. The state forces them to attend and then has them pledge alliance to the flag every day. And of course, the practice started growing in popularity around the nation in the early 1900s when nationalism was on the rise worldwide. The pledge has a weird, colorful history that isn’t that flattering.
|
Every student standing for the pledge of allegiance to country and flag in school every day is totally not fascist.
+ Show Spoiler +This is what that kind of ritual looks like to me. ![[image loading]](http://www.fg.vs.bw.schule.de/abi/abi47/chronik/appell.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.rothenburg-unterm-hakenkreuz.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Schule-Paam-anfang-udn-am-Schluss-des-Unterrichtstages1.jpg) Sowjets also did the exact same shit btw. Only apparently not even every day, only to special occasions. It is still disgusting nationalistic indoctrination of the youth in my opinion.
|
On September 28 2017 02:07 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 01:46 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 28 2017 01:41 brian wrote:On September 28 2017 01:40 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 28 2017 01:32 Gorsameth wrote:On September 28 2017 01:05 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 28 2017 00:46 Gorsameth wrote:On September 28 2017 00:43 Danglars wrote:On September 28 2017 00:30 Plansix wrote:On September 28 2017 00:13 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
The pledge is not present at any sporting events. All right, time to remove it and the anthem from the NFL. Politics removed. Problem solved. Remove what’s not present. Right. yes please continue to avoid the point. If you want to remove politics from sports lets get rid of the anthem before non-international games. So if that's what you want. Let's talk about the execution. You need people to bring that up and apparently load of people here wants to be as disruptive as possible to make their political statement. So you will go through a vetting system, which will most likely not get passed through in the NFL management to not alienate people that wants the flag there due to profit reason. Let me walk you through the conversation here (note also that removing the anthem isn't my standpoint. I'm just trying to get Danglers (and you) to answer a question someone else posted. Someone made a political statement during a sport event. The right answered with "I don't want politics during my sport" (and a lot of disrespect stuff but lets ignore that for now) The left goes "ok, if you want politics out of sports then we should also remove the anthem because it itself is a political statement, are you ok with that?" so, are you ok with that? All I want is the country is to come unifying and the flag/anthem are part of the glue that hold us together. But if you think that removing of the two would help the country to unify together, you are free to protest for it. so in answer to the question, it is indeed only your politics you think belong in sports? dodging questions like oj on the stand If you want to remove the unifying symbolism for the country, go for it. But don't be dumbfounded of the repercussion. A) This is not the point. The point being made is that the "politics out of sport" people don't actually want politics out of sport. They want politics which are not their own politics out of sport. Flag & Anthem are definitively political. Military ads are political. Yet these are not a problem for the "politics out of sport" people. A guy doing the most civil protest possible is a problem to them. The logical conclusion is that it is not about "politics out of sports", it is about "I don't like that guys politics, make him go away". Because if you actually were for "politics out of sports", you would also be for removing the flag and anthem, the military ads, etc... B) There are a lot of countries that work perfectly well without that much flag and anthem stuff. Germany has barely any flag and anthem stuff going on, and we still exist as a nation, and are probably less divided then the US. In fact, to me the US obsession with their flag and anthem evokes pretty scary associations in me. It feels militaristic and nationalistic to me. You only need a strong leader to lead your one nation under god and make america great again. We had that phase in our national history, too. Doesn't turn out well. Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 02:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 28 2017 02:04 Velr wrote:
Having the national Anthem and all the other stuff isn't something sportsleagues do... Except in the US and, well, dictatorships?
I get why you like it but being triggered because someone is kneeling(!!!!) during or even before it paints a pretty facist picture. A lot of the shit that the U.S. does is pseudo-fascist. All 13 years of my childhood education involved me standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance in class. Hope that paints an adequate picture. The fuck? That is scary.
You think that is scary?
They used to do it while giving the nazi salute (this started before the rise of hitler and nazism tho and was changed to a hand over the heart in 1942).
The parallels are disturbing to say the least.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 28 2017 02:26 Simberto wrote:Every student standing for the pledge of allegiance to country and flag in school every day is totally not fascist. + Show Spoiler +This is what that kind of ritual looks like to me. Sowjets also did the exact same shit btw. Only apparently not even every day, only to special occasions. It is still disgusting nationalistic indoctrination of the youth in my opinion.
It took just four short posts to go from the pledge of allegiance to full blown "look at the surface level similarity to HITLER and STALIN!" It would be funny if it weren't dangerous.
Sad thing is, the Europeans who are so quick to cry fascist at everything that moves are unwilling to draw attention to genuine fascism when it comes up. I don't doubt this utter lack of perspective will be lost on the individuals I am talking about.
|
On September 28 2017 02:37 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 02:26 Simberto wrote:Every student standing for the pledge of allegiance to country and flag in school every day is totally not fascist. + Show Spoiler +This is what that kind of ritual looks like to me. Sowjets also did the exact same shit btw. Only apparently not even every day, only to special occasions. It is still disgusting nationalistic indoctrination of the youth in my opinion. It took just four short posts to go from the pledge of allegiance to full blown "look at the surface level similarity to HITLER and STALIN!" It would be funny if it weren't dangerous. Sad thing is, the Europeans who are so quick to cry fascist at everything that moves are unwilling to draw attention to genuine fascism when it comes up. I don't doubt this utter lack of perspective will be lost on the individuals I am talking about.
Is this the same as when the left cries racist/racism at everything? Because if a German is calling it fascist...well...
|
On September 28 2017 02:37 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 02:26 Simberto wrote:Every student standing for the pledge of allegiance to country and flag in school every day is totally not fascist. + Show Spoiler +This is what that kind of ritual looks like to me. Sowjets also did the exact same shit btw. Only apparently not even every day, only to special occasions. It is still disgusting nationalistic indoctrination of the youth in my opinion. It took just four short posts to go from the pledge of allegiance to full blown "look at the surface level similarity to HITLER and STALIN!" It would be funny if it weren't dangerous. Sad thing is, the Europeans who are so quick to cry fascist at everything that moves are unwilling to draw attention to genuine fascism when it comes up. I don't doubt this utter lack of perspective will be lost on the individuals I am talking about.
Could you have a more simplistic, childish point of view on this subject? People spent decades studying the rise hyper nationalism and fascism. From nationalist fervor that drove the rush to World War 1 to the rise of the authoritarian regimes of the 1930s and1940s. Guess what? Compulsory pledges of alliance and to the nation and its iconography are common features all of the worst regimes in world history.
|
United States42605 Posts
On September 28 2017 02:37 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 02:26 Simberto wrote:Every student standing for the pledge of allegiance to country and flag in school every day is totally not fascist. + Show Spoiler +This is what that kind of ritual looks like to me. Sowjets also did the exact same shit btw. Only apparently not even every day, only to special occasions. It is still disgusting nationalistic indoctrination of the youth in my opinion. It took just four short posts to go from the pledge of allegiance to full blown "look at the surface level similarity to HITLER and STALIN!" It would be funny if it weren't dangerous. Sad thing is, the Europeans who are so quick to cry fascist at everything that moves are unwilling to draw attention to genuine fascism when it comes up. I don't doubt this utter lack of perspective will be lost on the individuals I am talking about.
Nobody here needs lessons on fascism from a Putin shill, thanks.
|
On September 28 2017 02:14 LegalLord wrote:
Standing for the pledge of allegiance is pseudo-fascist now? Holy fuck, give me a break.
Um...yes?
The whole flag worship and daily school pledge is weird as fuck for a lot of people outside the US. For pretty much the same reason that causes outrage Danglars and xDaunt, because of the whole Nation>State>Individual attitude that spawns from it.
Y'all need to learn to prioritize things that are actually important. Like Hockey and Poutine.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 28 2017 02:40 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Is this the same as when the left cries racist/racism at everything?
Read a few of my past posts and you will see that I mentioned them in a similar light. Though the "fascism" thing is probably a wee bit more dangerous.
On September 28 2017 02:40 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Because if a German is calling it fascist...well...
I know what you're getting at "blacks understand white-on-black racism, so Germans must understand fascism because of Hitler!" And that is just complete and utter horseshit. Yes, their grandparents or great-grandparents grew up in a time when Hitler was in charge and possibly aided him in his adventures across Europe. But living in a culture of shame for what one's ancestors did doesn't make you an expert on what is and isn't fascism. And even if it did, a German being obtuse is just a subset of a person being obtuse, which is a perfectly valid reason to say they're wrong.
You're using a thinly veiled appeal to authority, either on purpose or without realizing it, and a shitty one at that. If you want fascism, start with those that honor Nazi collaborators or the Nazis themselves, not with putting your hand on your heart and saying "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America." Or a guy cheering at a Trump rally which out of context looks like a Nazi salute, or an old woman that at an event shows a Nazi salute just so people see what it actually looks like. Yes, it's cut from the same cloth as the "racism" crap, just with a different audience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
