In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
In which reporters leap over denials of campaign strategy to arrive at denials of policy conversations in wiggle room "campaign-related." It just refuses to end.
Right, nothing where he was under oath and thus committed perjury.
He didn't say anything contradictory in his sworn testimony. You're just like these reporters grasping at straws.
You seem like a pretty smart guy to me, which is why I'm confused as to why you are continuing to defend Trump over his Russian ties.
It is plain as day that there is a host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit. After so many concealed interactions with these characters, and the number of lies that have been told in service to the coverup, how can you not ask, "What is this man hiding?"
You'd have to be a pretty dumb guy to believe the latest Sessions story. But you want to take it broad, so I'll detail some of my perspective. It's obvious right now that Trump and the Trump campaign hired shady characters and didn't care. That's reflective of a poor executive at the top and just under. Trump Jr's behavior is also unethical and indefensible. None of it rises to clear evidence that Trump coordinated or was aware of collusion between the Putin regime and his campaign. No payment for releasing hacks or whatever. That his son was eager for oppo no matter where it came from changes little; he was duped by a special pleader for the Magnitsky act whose vagueness should've been a red flag from the start.
He obviously has authoritarian tendencies which makes him more receptive to Putin's foreign policy and internal strong-man character. Another mark against him.
We've had a bevy of retracted stories, stories proved wrong via congressional testimony, and reporters embarrassed. This thread has documented much of the sheer idiocy of the partisan leak campaign and wrong anonymously sourced stories. So I wonder how people are still so blind to not see what's going on. In many other cases, I'd presume you and others would have more doubts about the motivation to lie and conceal in a high-level war between the Democrat party with media and government allies and Trump and his administration and former campaign. And, as an aside, the "host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit" is absolutely false from the start. You got Manafort, who probably did some stuff on their behalf in Ukraine for cash that was not above board. That's it. Take a few steps back and reexamine your presuppositions.
Kushner setting up a secret back channel through the Russian embassy?
DJr email literally stating This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump
In which reporters leap over denials of campaign strategy to arrive at denials of policy conversations in wiggle room "campaign-related." It just refuses to end.
Right, nothing where he was under oath and thus committed perjury.
He didn't say anything contradictory in his sworn testimony. You're just like these reporters grasping at straws.
You seem like a pretty smart guy to me, which is why I'm confused as to why you are continuing to defend Trump over his Russian ties.
It is plain as day that there is a host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit. After so many concealed interactions with these characters, and the number of lies that have been told in service to the coverup, how can you not ask, "What is this man hiding?"
You'd have to be a pretty dumb guy to believe the latest Sessions story. But you want to take it broad, so I'll detail some of my perspective. It's obvious right now that Trump and the Trump campaign hired shady characters and didn't care. That's reflective of a poor executive at the top and just under. Trump Jr's behavior is also unethical and indefensible. None of it rises to clear evidence that Trump coordinated or was aware of collusion between the Putin regime and his campaign. No payment for releasing hacks or whatever. That his son was eager for oppo no matter where it came from changes little; he was duped by a special pleader for the Magnitsky act whose vagueness should've been a red flag from the start.
He obviously has authoritarian tendencies which makes him more receptive to Putin's foreign policy and internal strong-man character. Another mark against him.
We've had a bevy of retracted stories, stories proved wrong via congressional testimony, and reporters embarrassed. This thread has documented much of the sheer idiocy of the partisan leak campaign and wrong anonymously sourced stories. So I wonder how people are still so blind to not see what's going on. In many other cases, I'd presume you and others would have more doubts about the motivation to lie and conceal in a high-level war between the Democrat party with media and government allies and Trump and his administration and former campaign. And, as an aside, the "host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit" is absolutely false from the start. You got Manafort, who probably did some stuff on their behalf in Ukraine for cash that was not above board. That's it. Take a few steps back and reexamine your presuppositions.
I remember 2 or 3 reports getting retracted by CNN. I also remember a ton of stories about Trump and Russia that were subsequently confirmed by the White House, which has gone from "no contacts with Russia ever, so certainly no collusion lol how could you even THINK that" to "Manafort, Kushner, Trump Jr all met with representatives of the Russian government because we were promised info on HRC. But they just wanted to talk about adoptions, pinky swear." That reversal is truly stunning, it shows that there is ample grounds for appointing the Special Counsel, and congressional R's continued defense of Trump's side in the Russia investigation is dumbfounding to me.
Also: It's not just Manafort with lots of weird shady Russian ties. There's Mike Flynn, Carter Page, all of the people who met with Kislyak and subsequently lied or misled others about the details of their interactions with him (or do you really believe that they all "forgot?" Kislyak should be investigated to see if he is part of the Xmen in that case.) There are a bunch of other Trump-related people with extensive Russian ties that I haven't got the time or inclination to look up and list out here.
EDIT: also the post above mine. That doesn't look suspicious?
The chief of police in Minneapolis has resigned at the request of the city’s mayor, Betsy Hodges, after Hodges said she had “lost the confidence of the people”.
Janeé Harteau has faced criticism for her handling of the shooting of unarmed Australian woman Justine Damond, as well as previous killings going back to 2013.
“I’ve lost confidence in the chief’s ability to lead us further,” said Hodges in a media statement. “And from the many conversations I’ve had with people around our city, it is clear that she has lost the confidence of the people of Minneapolis as well. For us to continue to transform policing ... we need new leadership at [Minneapolis Police Department].
Hodges’ own media conference later on Friday evening quickly descended into chaos as protesters angrily called for the mayor to resign as well, saying they “had been terrorized enough”. The crowd – a coalition of community groups pushing for police reform – drowned out her comments with chants of “Bye bye Betsy.”
Echoing the catchcry used in calls for justice after the 2016 shooting death of Philando Castile, they shouted: “If Justine don’t get it, shut it down.” The initial round of protests were led by Jonathan Thompson, a friend and coworker of Castile.
After the room was cleared and the conference restarted, Hodges said it had been a “heartbreaking and challenging and awful week for the people of our city”.
“I share people’s frustration about the pace of change in our policing and building community trust. Transformational change is difficult, it is uncomfortable and it takes time,” she said.
Hodges nominated assistant chief Medaria Arradondo to be the next chief. Nicknamed “Rondo”, he served as the department’s public face after Damond’s shooting while Harteau was on personal leave. Arradondo, who is African-American, has been with the department since 1989.
Reached after the protest, Thompson said it was important that he had confronted the mayor in front of an assembled crowd of reporters that included many Australian journalists.
“Betsy Hodges was trying to appease the international press, trying to say, ‘I did something about it. I did something really good. I asked the chief to step down,’ and thinking that’s going to end what’s happening, but it’s not going to end nothing,” he said.
Thompson, who now runs an organization called New North, added that he hoped Australians would find ways to get involved. “The fight for Justine is not over. It’s just begun. We got a lot of allies. We need Australia right here with us ... and we won’t stop fighting for Justine and victims like Justine.”
Mel Reeves, a long time community activist in Minneapolis, was part of the group that stormed the media conference. He said that initially they had just planned a street protest, but went to city hall when they heard about the meeting, and after a few failed attempts, managed to get inside.
“What you witnessed there was frustration. The frustration in this city is building over. The international community needs to understand that the Minneapolis Police Department has been a very abusive one. The killings are just the tip of the iceberg. People get brutalized on a regular basis,” he said.
Bi-Partisan support from congress to actively try and to stop the Trump administration's dealings with Russia. This is how compromised this administration is.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Republicans aren’t usually big on raising taxes, but they’re really eager to eliminate the federal deduction for state and local taxes.
Why? A look at the states that benefit the most from the tax break helps explain it – they are all Democratic strongholds. New York, Connecticut, New Jersey and California top the list of states where taxpayers get the biggest deductions. Not a single Republican-leaning state ranks in the top 10.
“Although Republicans usually recoil at any type of tax increase, cutting this tax break would almost be fun for them,” said Martin Sullivan, chief economist for Tax Analysts. “It provides massively disproportionate deductions to high-tax states controlled by Democrats.”
Proposals by House Republican leaders and President Donald Trump would repeal the tax break as part of their packages to overhaul the American tax code. But they are getting a lot of pushback from Republican lawmakers in Democratic-controlled states.
The standoff illustrates how hard it is for Congress to eliminate any popular tax break, even one that primarily benefits the ruling party’s political opponents.
Almost 44 million claimed the deduction in 2014, according to IRS statistics. That’s nearly every taxpayer who itemizes deductions, a little less than 30 percent of all taxpayers. Sullivan analyzed which states would be hit hardest by repealing the tax deduction. The Associated Press did a similar analysis and came to the same conclusion.
Nationally, the average deduction is about $11,800, but it is much bigger in many blue states. New York is tops with an average deduction of more than $21,000. Connecticut is next at $18,900, followed by New Jersey at $17,200 and California at $17,100.
These are states with high property values, high costs of living, high incomes and relatively high state and local taxes compared to other states. They are also states President Donald Trump lost in last year’s election. Though the president is from New York, he lost the state to Democrat Hillary Clinton by 22 percentage points.
The highest-ranked state won by Trump is Wisconsin, which came in at No. 13, with an average deduction of $11,300.
At the bottom is Alaska, with an average deduction of $4,800. It is followed by Tennessee and Alabama. Among the bottom 10 states, Nevada and New Mexico are the only ones won by Clinton.
The deduction allows taxpayers to write off real estate taxes, and state and local income taxes. If your state doesn’t have an income tax, you can deduct sales taxes. The deduction is heavily weighted to families with high incomes. Seventy-five percent of the benefits went to families making more than $100,000.
Rep. Kevin Brady, R-Texas, says eliminating a tax break that helps some people will help lawmakers lower tax rates for everyone.
“We’re proposing a much simpler code with lower rates where everyone gets help whether they are paying their state and local taxes or they are putting their kids in college,” said Brady, who chairs the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee.
Eliminating the tax break would raise $1.3 trillion over the next decade, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, money that could be used to help pay for lower income tax rates.
The House Republican plan would eliminate most itemized deductions while nearly doubling the standard deduction, to $24,000 for married couples. Notably, the plan would keep the deductions for mortgage interest and charitable contributions.
The White House and congressional Republicans have been privately negotiating their tax package for weeks, with no public sign that they’re near a consensus. Democrats have been excluded from the talks.
Some Republicans claim the deduction for state and local taxes encourages states to spend and tax more because the taxes can be deducted at the federal level. Some also complain that the deduction forces low-tax Republican states to subsidize high taxes in Democratic states.
However, many blue-state Republicans don’t buy those arguments. They note that most high-cost blue states send more tax dollars to Washington than they receive in federal benefits. And who benefits from those tax dollars? Low-cost red states where incomes are generally lower.
“If we’re going to have a discussion about who is subsidizing whom, it must be across the board. It can’t be just one provision,” said Rep. Leonard Lance, R-N.J.
Lance is teaming up with Rep. Bill Pascrell, Jr., D-N.J., in an effort to maintain the tax break.
“In New Jersey, (the deduction) encourages very strong public schools,” Lance said. “I want to maintain strong public schools. For there to be strong public schools, there has to be adequate spending.”
Rep. Tom MacArthur, R-N.J., said he brings up the deduction every time he sees Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, one of Trump’s top advisers on taxes.
“The minute he walked into the room and saw me he pointed and said, ‘I know, state and local tax deduction,'” MacArthur said.
“I know the White House is committed to bringing taxes down for everybody,” MacArthur said. “But people in high-tax states under the plan they’re proposing would basically be at a break-even while everyone else in the county enjoys tax relief. That’s not fair.”
Trump is just on a rampage this morning with his tweets. I really wish I could be a fly on the wall while he's furiously pounding away at his phone while screaming at the world. The modern day president everybody.
@Danglers you gotta look at sources. While some have been proven wrong, others are also true. The administration has also proven to constantly lie/misrepresent/redirect etc as more and more dirt comes up. It may have started as almost nothing, but the press have been poking holes in a dam, and it's looking less and less stable every day.
On July 23 2017 01:27 farvacola wrote: Those tweets reek of fearful pretext-laying, I think Mueller's firing is on the horizon.
It seems too messy to pull off. Rosenstein would have to be fired first correct? I'm not sure how they can pull that firing off without coming off as blatant bias. Then they have to hope the next in line would fire Mueller, and so on and so forth. It's too reminiscent of Nixon. Let's not forget that when Nixon did eventually find someone to fire the special prosecutor, it was ruled to be illegal.
If Sessions resigns(or is fired, which would be the first in US history), would the new appointed AG be given oversight of the special council? I'm sure they'd be grilled to hell and back over their stance on the investigation during their confirmation hearing to assure that they wouldn't interfere.
I think Muelluer is just fine outside of some extreme circumstances that wouldn't come without a shit ton of political blowback.
In which reporters leap over denials of campaign strategy to arrive at denials of policy conversations in wiggle room "campaign-related." It just refuses to end.
Right, nothing where he was under oath and thus committed perjury.
He didn't say anything contradictory in his sworn testimony. You're just like these reporters grasping at straws.
You seem like a pretty smart guy to me, which is why I'm confused as to why you are continuing to defend Trump over his Russian ties.
It is plain as day that there is a host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit. After so many concealed interactions with these characters, and the number of lies that have been told in service to the coverup, how can you not ask, "What is this man hiding?"
You'd have to be a pretty dumb guy to believe the latest Sessions story. But you want to take it broad, so I'll detail some of my perspective. It's obvious right now that Trump and the Trump campaign hired shady characters and didn't care. That's reflective of a poor executive at the top and just under. Trump Jr's behavior is also unethical and indefensible. None of it rises to clear evidence that Trump coordinated or was aware of collusion between the Putin regime and his campaign. No payment for releasing hacks or whatever. That his son was eager for oppo no matter where it came from changes little; he was duped by a special pleader for the Magnitsky act whose vagueness should've been a red flag from the start.
He obviously has authoritarian tendencies which makes him more receptive to Putin's foreign policy and internal strong-man character. Another mark against him.
We've had a bevy of retracted stories, stories proved wrong via congressional testimony, and reporters embarrassed. This thread has documented much of the sheer idiocy of the partisan leak campaign and wrong anonymously sourced stories. So I wonder how people are still so blind to not see what's going on. In many other cases, I'd presume you and others would have more doubts about the motivation to lie and conceal in a high-level war between the Democrat party with media and government allies and Trump and his administration and former campaign. And, as an aside, the "host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit" is absolutely false from the start. You got Manafort, who probably did some stuff on their behalf in Ukraine for cash that was not above board. That's it. Take a few steps back and reexamine your presuppositions.
I remember 2 or 3 reports getting retracted by CNN. I also remember a ton of stories about Trump and Russia that were subsequently confirmed by the White House, which has gone from "no contacts with Russia ever, so certainly no collusion lol how could you even THINK that" to "Manafort, Kushner, Trump Jr all met with representatives of the Russian government because we were promised info on HRC. But they just wanted to talk about adoptions, pinky swear." That reversal is truly stunning, it shows that there is ample grounds for appointing the Special Counsel, and congressional R's continued defense of Trump's side in the Russia investigation is dumbfounding to me.
Also: It's not just Manafort with lots of weird shady Russian ties. There's Mike Flynn, Carter Page, all of the people who met with Kislyak and subsequently lied or misled others about the details of their interactions with him (or do you really believe that they all "forgot?" Kislyak should be investigated to see if he is part of the Xmen in that case.) There are a bunch of other Trump-related people with extensive Russian ties that I haven't got the time or inclination to look up and list out here.
EDIT: also the post above mine. That doesn't look suspicious?
Not to mention I randomly caught a Maddow segment sometime in the past couple weeks where she said they got a really spicy document that turned out to be a big shop job from the parts of the Reality Winner print, leading to the idea that there's somebody/group out there making fake governmental documents and sending them to news outlets in attempts to discredit them.
On July 22 2017 07:15 Nevuk wrote: Is this even legal?
Tenn. county inmates given reduced jail time if they get a vasectomy
Inmates in White County, Tennessee have been given credit for their jail time if they voluntarily agree to have a vasectomy or birth control implant, a popular new program that is being called “unconstitutional” by the ACLU.
On May 15, 2017 General Sessions Judge Sam Benningfield signed a standing order that allows inmates to receive 30 days credit toward jail time if they undergo a birth control procedure.
Women who volunteer to participate in the program are given a free Nexplanon implant in their arm, the implant helps prevent pregnancies for up to four years. Men who volunteer to participate are given a vasectomy, free of charge, by the Tennessee Department of Health.
County officials said that since the program began a few months ago 32 women have gotten the Nexplananon implant and 38 men were waiting to have the vasectomy procedure performed.
Judge Benningfield told Nashville-based WTVF that he was trying to break a vicious cycle of repeat offenders who constantly come into his courtroom on drug related charges, subsequently can’t afford child support and have trouble finding jobs.
“I hope to encourage them to take personal responsibility and give them a chance, when they do get out, to not to be burdened with children. This gives them a chance to get on their feet and make something of themselves,” Judge Benningfield said in an interview.
First elected in 1998, Judge Benningfield decided to implement the program after speaking with officials at the Tennessee Department of Health.
“I understand it won’t be entirely successful but if you reach two or three people, maybe that’s two or three kids not being born under the influence of drugs. I see it as a win, win,” he added. Inmates in the White County jail were also given two days credit toward their jail sentence if they complete a State of Tennessee, Department of Health Neonatal Syndrome Education Program. The class aimed to educate those who are incarcerated about the dangers of having children while under the influence of drugs.
“Hopefully while they’re staying here we rehabilitate them so they never come back,” the judge said.
District Attorney Bryant Dunaway, who oversees prosecution of cases in White County said he is worried the program may be unethical and possibly illegal.
“It’s concerning to me, my office doesn’t support this order,” Dunaway said.
“It’s comprehensible that an 18-year-old gets this done, it can’t get reversed and then that impacts the rest of their life,” he added.
On Wednesday, the ACLU released this statement on the program:
"Offering a so-called 'choice' between jail time and coerced contraception or sterilization is unconstitutional. Such a choice violates the fundamental constitutional right to reproductive autonomy and bodily integrity by interfering with the intimate decision of whether and when to have a child, imposing an intrusive medical procedure on individuals who are not in a position to reject it. Judges play an important role in our community – overseeing individuals’ childbearing capacity should not be part of that role."
But holy shit, you only get 30 days credit for a vasectomy. That's the real crime. That's gotta be worth at least a year.
Seriously though, doesn't help when you think about this part.
Just hoping some already infertile imprisoned people are able to take advantage.
Got racial offender statistics?
On July 22 2017 06:44 Wulfey_LA wrote: I remember having all these stern arguments about the horrors of unmasking. How serious it was. How Hannity was totally right in his accusations that Susan Rice was UNMASKING AMERICAN PATRIOTS. And now for the lulz conclusion. Burr is the Republican Senate Chair of whatever sub-group is investigating Trump/Russia.
The pump fake so fast everybody misses it. The HPSCI will continue investigating; Susan Rice has been subpoena'd and will testify soon. So will Samantha Power. The fallout from that will be the senator's big chance to prove he's not full of shit.
lol. Of all the related causes, I can count on you to lean on "racial offender statistics". Conceding for the moment that those statistics would show what you presume (higher offending rates among Black people) do you acknowledge that it's not a great representation of the actual rate of crime?
Like if you looked at who and where cocaine arrests are made and tried to use that to make assumptions about it's criminal users you would be drastically off.
As long as you can also admit that races that offend at higher rates can be expected to be a bigger share of incarcerated persons.
Of course. But in the example of drugs and as you've admitted, the rate at which people are arrested/tried/convicted is a poor measure of how much criminal activity is actually happening or who is committing it.
Surely you don't actually think that there are so many more black criminals in Tennessee than there are white (per 100k)?
I think the attempt to cite their proportion of the population and their incarceration rates means the offense rates are closer than makes for pretty graphs. I know if you take all those convicted of drug crimes out of prisons, you still get racial division.
I honestly don't know what your first sentence is supposed to mean. What gave you the impression I would argue that, sans drugs, the jail/prison population wouldn't still poorly reflect the rate and perpetrators of crime in general?
You quote population breakdown versus incarceration rates. Knowing that various races do not offend at the same rates, it's foolish to not include crime reports on offender/victim or offender reports. When they aren't provided and they're obviously needed to complete the picture, I think maybe their inclusion diminishes the shock value of the graph. I'm well aware of the cultural and societal problems of inner cities that are also part of the story alongside possible policing malpractice and sentencing mismatches.
Yeah they are part of the story. One that is unimportant to the point I was making and can't possibly explain the disparity we see. The shocking part of the graph doesn't go away if you add in the fundamentally flawed crime reports.
This reminds me of when folks on your side of this argument would quote the FBI statistics on police shooting civilians like they weren't basically worthless.
Re: State Tax Deduction ...looks enough like class warfare that it feels like it should be a Democrat proposal. This deduction mostly applies to blue states, as the article says. But it mostly applies to rich people in blue states, because of those states' highly progressive tax structures. Poor people usually don't pay more state income tax than the standard deduction, and raising the standard deduction would shift the benefits of the deduction even further onto the high-income earners.
In which reporters leap over denials of campaign strategy to arrive at denials of policy conversations in wiggle room "campaign-related." It just refuses to end.
Right, nothing where he was under oath and thus committed perjury.
He didn't say anything contradictory in his sworn testimony. You're just like these reporters grasping at straws.
You seem like a pretty smart guy to me, which is why I'm confused as to why you are continuing to defend Trump over his Russian ties.
It is plain as day that there is a host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit. After so many concealed interactions with these characters, and the number of lies that have been told in service to the coverup, how can you not ask, "What is this man hiding?"
You'd have to be a pretty dumb guy to believe the latest Sessions story. But you want to take it broad, so I'll detail some of my perspective. It's obvious right now that Trump and the Trump campaign hired shady characters and didn't care. That's reflective of a poor executive at the top and just under. Trump Jr's behavior is also unethical and indefensible. None of it rises to clear evidence that Trump coordinated or was aware of collusion between the Putin regime and his campaign. No payment for releasing hacks or whatever. That his son was eager for oppo no matter where it came from changes little; he was duped by a special pleader for the Magnitsky act whose vagueness should've been a red flag from the start.
He obviously has authoritarian tendencies which makes him more receptive to Putin's foreign policy and internal strong-man character. Another mark against him.
We've had a bevy of retracted stories, stories proved wrong via congressional testimony, and reporters embarrassed. This thread has documented much of the sheer idiocy of the partisan leak campaign and wrong anonymously sourced stories. So I wonder how people are still so blind to not see what's going on. In many other cases, I'd presume you and others would have more doubts about the motivation to lie and conceal in a high-level war between the Democrat party with media and government allies and Trump and his administration and former campaign. And, as an aside, the "host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit" is absolutely false from the start. You got Manafort, who probably did some stuff on their behalf in Ukraine for cash that was not above board. That's it. Take a few steps back and reexamine your presuppositions.
Your post was several minutes too slow. In the post above you DJT himself confirms the truth of the Sessions story. You know this game. WaPo comes out with a story. You say, but wait, it might not be true. Libs here say "no, this one will be true like all the others". Then you write a big long post about skepticism, doubt, and presuming too much. Then DJT himself confirms the story in a tweet. You were literally minutes too slow this time.
EDIT: holy shit today's Trump tweets. He believes everything Hannity says like it is real. The nation is in terrible peril.