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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
I still think there's a lot of jumping to conclusions going on here.
I don't think you can call it jumping to conclusions at this point anymore. If there's a dead body, with a bloody knife next to it that has my fingerprints, and the police finds a bloody shirt in my washing machine matching the blood of the body, it's not "jumping to conclusions" if i get arrested and suspected of murder because people think im guilty.
Same here. It's not jumping to conclusions after the trump campaign has proven to be constantly, and blatantly, lying. It has also proven that it constantly tries to justify it with stupidity ("i didn't know it was illegal/not ethical etc" - "i don't THINK that's illegal/not ethical etc").
Lets put it this way, lets go all the way to the very basics. The trump campaign stated way back then that there was no contacts to russians or intent to collude etc. For how many people (including people of the innermost circle of trump) turned that out to be a lie? Not to mention that it didn't just turn out a lie, people got called out and they flat out denied it, like that greasestain Don Jr - to then, well, what?
If you have this timeline: "I never met a russian" to "We got called out for meeting with russians, that's so phony, all lies, SAD!" to in the end releasing the proof of it yourself, then really, it's not jumping to conclusions. Could it turn out to be the wrong conclusion? Of course. That can, does, did and always will happen every now and then, just take the estimate for innocent people in jail as example. But is it jumping to conclusions after so much stuff got first: called out, then B: denied, and then C: proven? Hell no. It's "coming" to a conclusion based on a repeating pattern.
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I have a mental picture of White House descending into some Lord of the Flies shenanigans soon. Reince and the establishment holed up on one floor, hardcore Trump supporters in the West Wing, various small enclaves elsewhere holed up for safety and Bannon dressed in rags roaming the halls picking off unfortunate interns. Legislators who have meetings have to tread carefully and bring gifts of food. There is a secret knock to get into the West Wing, and you have to whisper the password, which is of course MAGA.
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On July 22 2017 13:53 ticklishmusic wrote:
I have a mental picture of White House descending into some Lord of the Flies shenanigans soon. Reince and the establishment holed up on one floor, hardcore Trump supporters in the West Wing, various small enclaves elsewhere holed up for safety and Bannon dressed in rags roaming the halls picking off unfortunate interns. Legislators who have meetings have to tread carefully and bring gifts of food. There is a secret knock to get into the West Wing, and you have to whisper the password, which is of course MAGA.
This is hilarious and amazing. I love this so much.
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On July 22 2017 13:53 m4ini wrote:I don't think you can call it jumping to conclusions at this point anymore. If there's a dead body, with a bloody knife next to it that has my fingerprints, and the police finds a bloody shirt in my washing machine matching the blood of the body, it's not "jumping to conclusions" if i get arrested and suspected of murder because people think im guilty. Same here. It's not jumping to conclusions after the trump campaign has proven to be constantly, and blatantly, lying. It has also proven that it constantly tries to justify it with stupidity ("i didn't know it was illegal/not ethical etc" - "i don't THINK that's illegal/not ethical etc"). Lets put it this way, lets go all the way to the very basics. The trump campaign stated way back then that there was no contacts to russians or intent to collude etc. For how many people (including people of the innermost circle of trump) turned that out to be a lie? Not to mention that it didn't just turn out a lie, people got called out and they flat out denied it, like that greasestain Don Jr - to then, well, what? If you have this timeline: "I never met a russian" to "We got called out for meeting with russians, that's so phony, all lies, SAD!" to in the end releasing the proof of it yourself, then really, it's not jumping to conclusions. Could it turn out to be the wrong conclusion? Of course. That can, does, did and always will happen every now and then, just take the estimate for innocent people in jail as example. But is it jumping to conclusions after so much stuff got first: called out, then B: denied, and then C: proven? Hell no. It's "coming" to a conclusion based on a repeating pattern.
I never said I thought Trump was innocent. It's a matter of time before Trump is probably impeached imo.
I'm questioning whether this WaPo article is going to evolve into anything significant, as some posters had suggested it was going to.
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Hugh Hewitt said on MSNBC that Sessions was done if the WaPo story was true. If Hugh won't even spin for a Trumpkin, that Trumpkin is no longer a Trumpkin and will quickly be thrown out.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Awww and he was just about to win the war on drugs!
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On July 22 2017 13:53 ticklishmusic wrote:
I have a mental picture of White House descending into some Lord of the Flies shenanigans soon. Reince and the establishment holed up on one floor, hardcore Trump supporters in the West Wing, various small enclaves elsewhere holed up for safety and Bannon dressed in rags roaming the halls picking off unfortunate interns. Legislators who have meetings have to tread carefully and bring gifts of food. There is a secret knock to get into the West Wing, and you have to whisper the password, which is of course MAGA.
Oh man, that's hilarious! You sir, just made my night. I'd pay good money to see that movie! 
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My post was pointless, removed it.
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On July 22 2017 13:04 mozoku wrote:
I don't know. If you want to put blood in the water (from the WH's perspective), why only leak to one news outlet? Why not several?
And aren't there cleaner ways to get rid of Sessions? Ones that don't involve pouring more gasoline on the Trump-Russia fire? If Trump just asked Sessions to resign, I feel like there's a decent chance he would.
Then again, this is an administration that's shown countless times that assuming competence on their part is just a mistake.
If Trump asks Sessions to resign so he can put a non-recused AG in place then its an easy step to yet another attempt at obstructing justice.
To fire Sessions without an obstruction over his head he needs a situation where Sessions cannot remain, like perjury.
Plus while this further incriminates Trump in the yes of the public it has no effect on the actual investigation because they were already aware of this lie. (Assuming this is the classified information Comey mentioned in his hearing that would demand Sessions recuse himself)
Note tho that none of this matters because no matter who replaces Sessions, that person won't be able to fire Meuller without it backfiring utterly (assuming the Republicans have any form of spine, which remains to be seen).
But ofcourse Trump doesn't think that far ahead. This is about loyalty and Sessions not telling Trump he would have to recuse himself and therefor could not impede the investigation.
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On July 22 2017 10:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2017 10:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2017 09:55 Danglars wrote:On July 22 2017 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2017 08:38 Danglars wrote:On July 22 2017 07:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2017 07:15 Nevuk wrote:Is this even legal?
Tenn. county inmates given reduced jail time if they get a vasectomy
Inmates in White County, Tennessee have been given credit for their jail time if they voluntarily agree to have a vasectomy or birth control implant, a popular new program that is being called “unconstitutional” by the ACLU.
On May 15, 2017 General Sessions Judge Sam Benningfield signed a standing order that allows inmates to receive 30 days credit toward jail time if they undergo a birth control procedure.
Women who volunteer to participate in the program are given a free Nexplanon implant in their arm, the implant helps prevent pregnancies for up to four years. Men who volunteer to participate are given a vasectomy, free of charge, by the Tennessee Department of Health.
County officials said that since the program began a few months ago 32 women have gotten the Nexplananon implant and 38 men were waiting to have the vasectomy procedure performed.
Judge Benningfield told Nashville-based WTVF that he was trying to break a vicious cycle of repeat offenders who constantly come into his courtroom on drug related charges, subsequently can’t afford child support and have trouble finding jobs.
“I hope to encourage them to take personal responsibility and give them a chance, when they do get out, to not to be burdened with children. This gives them a chance to get on their feet and make something of themselves,” Judge Benningfield said in an interview.
First elected in 1998, Judge Benningfield decided to implement the program after speaking with officials at the Tennessee Department of Health.
“I understand it won’t be entirely successful but if you reach two or three people, maybe that’s two or three kids not being born under the influence of drugs. I see it as a win, win,” he added.
Inmates in the White County jail were also given two days credit toward their jail sentence if they complete a State of Tennessee, Department of Health Neonatal Syndrome Education Program. The class aimed to educate those who are incarcerated about the dangers of having children while under the influence of drugs.
“Hopefully while they’re staying here we rehabilitate them so they never come back,” the judge said.
District Attorney Bryant Dunaway, who oversees prosecution of cases in White County said he is worried the program may be unethical and possibly illegal.
“It’s concerning to me, my office doesn’t support this order,” Dunaway said.
“It’s comprehensible that an 18-year-old gets this done, it can’t get reversed and then that impacts the rest of their life,” he added.
On Wednesday, the ACLU released this statement on the program:
"Offering a so-called 'choice' between jail time and coerced contraception or sterilization is unconstitutional. Such a choice violates the fundamental constitutional right to reproductive autonomy and bodily integrity by interfering with the intimate decision of whether and when to have a child, imposing an intrusive medical procedure on individuals who are not in a position to reject it. Judges play an important role in our community – overseeing individuals’ childbearing capacity should not be part of that role."
www.abc15.com Short answer: Yes, until the courts say no. But holy shit, you only get 30 days credit for a vasectomy. That's the real crime. That's gotta be worth at least a year. Seriously though, doesn't help when you think about this part. ![[image loading]](https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/2010rates/TN_Rates_2010.png) ![[image loading]](https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/disparities2010/TN_racial_disparities_2010.png) Just hoping some already infertile imprisoned people are able to take advantage. Got racial offender statistics? On July 22 2017 06:44 Wulfey_LA wrote:
I remember having all these stern arguments about the horrors of unmasking. How serious it was. How Hannity was totally right in his accusations that Susan Rice was UNMASKING AMERICAN PATRIOTS. And now for the lulz conclusion. Burr is the Republican Senate Chair of whatever sub-group is investigating Trump/Russia.
The pump fake so fast everybody misses it. The HPSCI will continue investigating; Susan Rice has been subpoena'd and will testify soon. So will Samantha Power. The fallout from that will be the senator's big chance to prove he's not full of shit. lol. Of all the related causes, I can count on you to lean on "racial offender statistics". Conceding for the moment that those statistics would show what you presume (higher offending rates among Black people) do you acknowledge that it's not a great representation of the actual rate of crime? Like if you looked at who and where cocaine arrests are made and tried to use that to make assumptions about it's criminal users you would be drastically off. As long as you can also admit that races that offend at higher rates can be expected to be a bigger share of incarcerated persons. Of course. But in the example of drugs and as you've admitted, the rate at which people are arrested/tried/convicted is a poor measure of how much criminal activity is actually happening or who is committing it. Surely you don't actually think that there are so many more black criminals in Tennessee than there are white (per 100k)? I think the attempt to cite their proportion of the population and their incarceration rates means the offense rates are closer than makes for pretty graphs. I know if you take all those convicted of drug crimes out of prisons, you still get racial division.
I honestly don't know what your first sentence is supposed to mean. What gave you the impression I would argue that, sans drugs, the jail/prison population wouldn't still poorly reflect the rate and perpetrators of crime in general?
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A broad industry and conservative coalition launched Friday to fight potential tariffs on imported solar panels.
Energy Trade Action Coalition includes mainly non-solar companies, along with trade associations, utilities, retailers, unions, conservative groups and others.
It was formed with the express purpose of fighting a petition by bankrupt domestic solar manufacturer Suniva Inc., which is asking the Trump administration to impose penalties on imported solar technology like cells and panels.
SolarWorld, another company manufacturing panels domestically, has signed on to support the request.
“Tariffs meant to protect one industry can, and often do, have significant damaging effects on other domestic industries,” Tori Whiting, research associate at the Heritage Foundation, said in a statement announcing the new coalition.
“Imposing tariffs under Section 201, as Suniva and SolarWorld request, would be a step backward by adding another layer of federal subsidies which is something the Heritage Foundation opposes in all instances,” she said.
“Protectionism is never the solution for an inability to compete globally,” said Bill Gaskin, former president of the Precision Metalforming Association. “Our country’s trade laws should never be co-opted into causing widespread pain for the broader U.S. economy.”
The coalition is planning to make its case to the Trump administration, Congress, the public, the media and other stakeholders that penalties for importing solar panels would be harmful to the economy as a whole.
The solar companies want either price floors or tariffs on imported technology.
The International Trade Commission has taken up their case. That group is due to decide later this year whether domestic companies have been injured by the imports.
If the ITC finds in the affirmative, President Trump would then have wide-ranging authority to impose penalties.
The Solar Energy Industries Association, which represents all facets of the solar industry, opposes the petition. It said 88,000 jobs are at risk in fields like installation, producing other parts and technology.
Source
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He is on another Clinton tweetfest. He just looks like....I don't even know anymore. When will his suporters finally get sick of thise loser?
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Trump doesn't deny the Sessions leak is true; Trump calling it an intelligence leak is one of the best signs for previous leaks that they've been accurate. Bumps up the likelihood it's true a decent chunk, I think, though of course because he's unhinged and citing random NYT articles from 2015 that were mentioned on Fox it's hard to predict his behavior.
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It's not even subtle haha
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On July 22 2017 10:59 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2017 10:05 Danglars wrote:On July 22 2017 08:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On July 22 2017 08:45 Danglars wrote:On July 22 2017 08:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
In which reporters leap over denials of campaign strategy to arrive at denials of policy conversations in wiggle room "campaign-related." It just refuses to end. Right, nothing where he was under oath and thus committed perjury. He didn't say anything contradictory in his sworn testimony. You're just like these reporters grasping at straws. You seem like a pretty smart guy to me, which is why I'm confused as to why you are continuing to defend Trump over his Russian ties. It is plain as day that there is a host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit. After so many concealed interactions with these characters, and the number of lies that have been told in service to the coverup, how can you not ask, "What is this man hiding?"
You'd have to be a pretty dumb guy to believe the latest Sessions story. But you want to take it broad, so I'll detail some of my perspective. It's obvious right now that Trump and the Trump campaign hired shady characters and didn't care. That's reflective of a poor executive at the top and just under. Trump Jr's behavior is also unethical and indefensible. None of it rises to clear evidence that Trump coordinated or was aware of collusion between the Putin regime and his campaign. No payment for releasing hacks or whatever. That his son was eager for oppo no matter where it came from changes little; he was duped by a special pleader for the Magnitsky act whose vagueness should've been a red flag from the start.
He obviously has authoritarian tendencies which makes him more receptive to Putin's foreign policy and internal strong-man character. Another mark against him.
We've had a bevy of retracted stories, stories proved wrong via congressional testimony, and reporters embarrassed. This thread has documented much of the sheer idiocy of the partisan leak campaign and wrong anonymously sourced stories. So I wonder how people are still so blind to not see what's going on. In many other cases, I'd presume you and others would have more doubts about the motivation to lie and conceal in a high-level war between the Democrat party with media and government allies and Trump and his administration and former campaign. And, as an aside, the "host of unsavory characters with strong ties to the Russian government swirling in Trump's orbit" is absolutely false from the start. You got Manafort, who probably did some stuff on their behalf in Ukraine for cash that was not above board. That's it. Take a few steps back and reexamine your presuppositions.
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He even says "so far" lmao. He is clearly downright scared.
At the very least, I am happy he is suffering emotionally from all this.
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On July 22 2017 13:27 Wulfey_LA wrote:
I thought, hey maybe Trump is smart enough to play this. Then I forgot the number 1 rule, no he isn't that smart. WaPo had the intercept in June. Adam Entous is the writer.
Feels like media organizations are selectively delaying certain stories based on how events go...and to maximize Trump's anger.
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On July 22 2017 19:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2017 10:10 Danglars wrote:On July 22 2017 10:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2017 09:55 Danglars wrote:On July 22 2017 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2017 08:38 Danglars wrote:On July 22 2017 07:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2017 07:15 Nevuk wrote:Is this even legal?
Tenn. county inmates given reduced jail time if they get a vasectomy
Inmates in White County, Tennessee have been given credit for their jail time if they voluntarily agree to have a vasectomy or birth control implant, a popular new program that is being called “unconstitutional” by the ACLU.
On May 15, 2017 General Sessions Judge Sam Benningfield signed a standing order that allows inmates to receive 30 days credit toward jail time if they undergo a birth control procedure.
Women who volunteer to participate in the program are given a free Nexplanon implant in their arm, the implant helps prevent pregnancies for up to four years. Men who volunteer to participate are given a vasectomy, free of charge, by the Tennessee Department of Health.
County officials said that since the program began a few months ago 32 women have gotten the Nexplananon implant and 38 men were waiting to have the vasectomy procedure performed.
Judge Benningfield told Nashville-based WTVF that he was trying to break a vicious cycle of repeat offenders who constantly come into his courtroom on drug related charges, subsequently can’t afford child support and have trouble finding jobs.
“I hope to encourage them to take personal responsibility and give them a chance, when they do get out, to not to be burdened with children. This gives them a chance to get on their feet and make something of themselves,” Judge Benningfield said in an interview.
First elected in 1998, Judge Benningfield decided to implement the program after speaking with officials at the Tennessee Department of Health.
“I understand it won’t be entirely successful but if you reach two or three people, maybe that’s two or three kids not being born under the influence of drugs. I see it as a win, win,” he added.
Inmates in the White County jail were also given two days credit toward their jail sentence if they complete a State of Tennessee, Department of Health Neonatal Syndrome Education Program. The class aimed to educate those who are incarcerated about the dangers of having children while under the influence of drugs.
“Hopefully while they’re staying here we rehabilitate them so they never come back,” the judge said.
District Attorney Bryant Dunaway, who oversees prosecution of cases in White County said he is worried the program may be unethical and possibly illegal.
“It’s concerning to me, my office doesn’t support this order,” Dunaway said.
“It’s comprehensible that an 18-year-old gets this done, it can’t get reversed and then that impacts the rest of their life,” he added.
On Wednesday, the ACLU released this statement on the program:
"Offering a so-called 'choice' between jail time and coerced contraception or sterilization is unconstitutional. Such a choice violates the fundamental constitutional right to reproductive autonomy and bodily integrity by interfering with the intimate decision of whether and when to have a child, imposing an intrusive medical procedure on individuals who are not in a position to reject it. Judges play an important role in our community – overseeing individuals’ childbearing capacity should not be part of that role."
www.abc15.com Short answer: Yes, until the courts say no. But holy shit, you only get 30 days credit for a vasectomy. That's the real crime. That's gotta be worth at least a year. Seriously though, doesn't help when you think about this part. Just hoping some already infertile imprisoned people are able to take advantage. Got racial offender statistics? On July 22 2017 06:44 Wulfey_LA wrote:I remember having all these stern arguments about the horrors of unmasking. How serious it was. How Hannity was totally right in his accusations that Susan Rice was UNMASKING AMERICAN PATRIOTS. And now for the lulz conclusion. Burr is the Republican Senate Chair of whatever sub-group is investigating Trump/Russia. https://twitter.com/yashar/status/888488364843970561 https://twitter.com/MZHemingway/status/888489491182346240The pump fake so fast everybody misses it. The HPSCI will continue investigating; Susan Rice has been subpoena'd and will testify soon. So will Samantha Power. The fallout from that will be the senator's big chance to prove he's not full of shit. lol. Of all the related causes, I can count on you to lean on "racial offender statistics". Conceding for the moment that those statistics would show what you presume (higher offending rates among Black people) do you acknowledge that it's not a great representation of the actual rate of crime? Like if you looked at who and where cocaine arrests are made and tried to use that to make assumptions about it's criminal users you would be drastically off. As long as you can also admit that races that offend at higher rates can be expected to be a bigger share of incarcerated persons. Of course. But in the example of drugs and as you've admitted, the rate at which people are arrested/tried/convicted is a poor measure of how much criminal activity is actually happening or who is committing it. Surely you don't actually think that there are so many more black criminals in Tennessee than there are white (per 100k)? I think the attempt to cite their proportion of the population and their incarceration rates means the offense rates are closer than makes for pretty graphs. I know if you take all those convicted of drug crimes out of prisons, you still get racial division. I honestly don't know what your first sentence is supposed to mean. What gave you the impression I would argue that, sans drugs, the jail/prison population wouldn't still poorly reflect the rate and perpetrators of crime in general?
You quote population breakdown versus incarceration rates. Knowing that various races do not offend at the same rates, it's foolish to not include crime reports on offender/victim or offender reports. When they aren't provided and they're obviously needed to complete the picture, I think maybe their inclusion diminishes the shock value of the graph. I'm well aware of the cultural and societal problems of inner cities that are also part of the story alongside possible policing malpractice and sentencing mismatches.
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President Donald Trump is incensed at reports that Robert Mueller, a former FBI director leading the independent investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, is investigating Trump's business dealings and finances, including his tax returns.
The Washington Post reported on Thursday that Trump has told aides he is particularly upset at the prospect of the investigators having access to several years of his tax returns.
Every president Since Jimmy Carter has released his tax returns, but Trump has refused, after initially promising to make them public following an IRS audit.
In a Wednesday interview with The New York Times, Trump said digging into his finances would be a "violation" of the investigation's limits.
"If you're looking at Russian collusion, the president’s tax returns would be outside that investigation," an adviser to the president told the Post.
But legal experts say Trump's financial history and business dealings are properly within the scope of the probe.
"This is Ken Starr times 1,000," a lawyer involved in the case told the Post, referring to the independent counsel who led the investigation into Bill Clinton that led to his impeachment trial in 1998. "Of course, it’s going to go into his finances."
www.yahoo.com
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EPT
