|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On July 11 2017 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2017 04:36 Plansix wrote:
I like Bernie’s plan to lead by example and draw big crowds in Republican strong holds. It is a much better tactic that trashing the entire democratic party. Now trashing the house leadership and DNC from 2016, that is a plan i support.
But it is all going to come down to just having better candidates. Bernie can do that because of who he is and what he is known for. The Democrats just need a better bench.
And Democrats can't because of who they are and what they are known for. Can't wave a wand at a bench and fix that, it's a structural and pervasive issue.
You are right, but that won’t change until 2018 and a new batch of candidates. Or they fail and then they just need to purge their leadership.
On July 11 2017 04:59 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2017 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 11 2017 04:33 NewSunshine wrote:On July 11 2017 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
When Democrats fall on their face in 2018 and probably 2020, remember they were too busy with the important Russia garbage to focus on a real strategy and all the Democrats ate it up.
I'm sure Democrats are already lining up excuses for why Democrats can't beat Republicans and none of them are Democrats fault.
The two parties in this country are absolute trash and there needs to be a healthy amount of shame associated with supporting either one of them at this point. The two parties are trash, but one of them has both majorities right now. When Trump, his family, and his administration, all the people in power right now, are being investigated for serious allegations, you don't get to pass that off as garbage. Other issues may be at play, but that doesn't allow you to sweep another issue under the rug. Two issues are allowed to exist, and be examined, simultaneously. I feel very strongly about healthcare too, but I'm aware that there is an ongoing investigation. It's garbage because our system is designed to not hold them accountable unless it is the politically desirable thing to do. There is no larger principal at play like some sort of "justice", it's merely a political calculation and it would do everyone some good to keep that in mind. It's garbage because it's never been going to amount to anything and it's been distracting Democrats from actually having a plan beyond "Have you seen the other guys!?" To be fair, even before the Russia stuff the primary message being used by the Democrats, including Obama, was "Have you seen the other guys?". It's a big part of what lost them the 2016 election. At the same time I don't think the Russia investigation matters insofar as the Democratic party's inability to come up with a plan or message for 2018 is concerned. It probably doesn't help, but it's not what's preventing the party from getting shit done.
The thing about 2018 is that we need to be way closer 2018 before the plan really start to form. It won’t come all at once. Midterm elections are smaller and don’t get the same national, front page internet coverage. Plus if they start running now and people might suffer from of political shell shock from the constant running for election.
On July 11 2017 05:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:
These investigations should matter if you had a functioning democratic system with voters who cared. The Sponsorship Scandal in Canada sank the Liberal party for over a decade until Trudeau came along.
If the voters don't care, then you have no accountability in the system at all.
Voters do care, but many are waiting for the investigation to finish. Some folks in this thread do not see it as a pressing issue worthy of news coverage.
|
These investigations should matter if you had a functioning democratic system with voters who cared. The Sponsorship Scandal in Canada sank the Liberal party for over a decade until Trudeau came along.
If the voters don't care, then you have no accountability in the system at all.
|
On July 11 2017 05:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2017 04:59 Seuss wrote:On July 11 2017 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 11 2017 04:33 NewSunshine wrote:On July 11 2017 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
When Democrats fall on their face in 2018 and probably 2020, remember they were too busy with the important Russia garbage to focus on a real strategy and all the Democrats ate it up.
I'm sure Democrats are already lining up excuses for why Democrats can't beat Republicans and none of them are Democrats fault.
The two parties in this country are absolute trash and there needs to be a healthy amount of shame associated with supporting either one of them at this point. The two parties are trash, but one of them has both majorities right now. When Trump, his family, and his administration, all the people in power right now, are being investigated for serious allegations, you don't get to pass that off as garbage. Other issues may be at play, but that doesn't allow you to sweep another issue under the rug. Two issues are allowed to exist, and be examined, simultaneously. I feel very strongly about healthcare too, but I'm aware that there is an ongoing investigation. It's garbage because our system is designed to not hold them accountable unless it is the politically desirable thing to do. There is no larger principal at play like some sort of "justice", it's merely a political calculation and it would do everyone some good to keep that in mind. It's garbage because it's never been going to amount to anything and it's been distracting Democrats from actually having a plan beyond "Have you seen the other guys!?" To be fair, even before the Russia stuff the primary message being used by the Democrats, including Obama, was "Have you seen the other guys?". It's a big part of what lost them the 2016 election. At the same time I don't think the Russia investigation matters insofar as the Democratic party's inability to come up with a plan or message for 2018 is concerned. It probably doesn't help, but it's not what's preventing the party from getting shit done. The thing about 2018 is that we need to be way closer 2018 before the plan really start to form. It won’t come all at once. Midterm elections are smaller and don’t get the same national, front page internet coverage. Plus if they start running now and people might suffer from of political shell shock from the constant running for election.
That didn't stop the Republicans from having a party-level message. Whatever else you can say about the party, around this time in Obama's first term you knew what Republicans were about even if they weren't talking directly about an election.
It's harder for the Democrats to do that for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that the party's inability to have a consistent, coherent message during the offseason (as it were) is a huge handicap.
|
On July 11 2017 05:15 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2017 05:01 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2017 04:59 Seuss wrote:On July 11 2017 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 11 2017 04:33 NewSunshine wrote:On July 11 2017 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
When Democrats fall on their face in 2018 and probably 2020, remember they were too busy with the important Russia garbage to focus on a real strategy and all the Democrats ate it up.
I'm sure Democrats are already lining up excuses for why Democrats can't beat Republicans and none of them are Democrats fault.
The two parties in this country are absolute trash and there needs to be a healthy amount of shame associated with supporting either one of them at this point. The two parties are trash, but one of them has both majorities right now. When Trump, his family, and his administration, all the people in power right now, are being investigated for serious allegations, you don't get to pass that off as garbage. Other issues may be at play, but that doesn't allow you to sweep another issue under the rug. Two issues are allowed to exist, and be examined, simultaneously. I feel very strongly about healthcare too, but I'm aware that there is an ongoing investigation. It's garbage because our system is designed to not hold them accountable unless it is the politically desirable thing to do. There is no larger principal at play like some sort of "justice", it's merely a political calculation and it would do everyone some good to keep that in mind. It's garbage because it's never been going to amount to anything and it's been distracting Democrats from actually having a plan beyond "Have you seen the other guys!?" To be fair, even before the Russia stuff the primary message being used by the Democrats, including Obama, was "Have you seen the other guys?". It's a big part of what lost them the 2016 election. At the same time I don't think the Russia investigation matters insofar as the Democratic party's inability to come up with a plan or message for 2018 is concerned. It probably doesn't help, but it's not what's preventing the party from getting shit done. The thing about 2018 is that we need to be way closer 2018 before the plan really start to form. It won’t come all at once. Midterm elections are smaller and don’t get the same national, front page internet coverage. Plus if they start running now and people might suffer from of political shell shock from the constant running for election. That didn't stop the Republicans from having a party-level message. Whatever else you can say about the party, around this time in Obama's first term you knew what Republicans were about even if they weren't talking directly about an election. It's harder for the Democrats to do that for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that the party's inability to have a consistent, coherent message during the offseason (as it were) is a huge handicap.
They have sucked at winning the midterms since the 1990s. The simplistic “less government across the board” message is easier for Republicans for sure. The Democrats need to get back to the worker’s rights and middle classic economic message. But that also means pushing issues like abortion and civil rights move out of the spotlight. It is hard to explain to some progressives that a candidate in Ohio can’t talk about police shootings because that is a concern for the voters he is courting.
|
On July 11 2017 05:15 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2017 05:01 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2017 04:59 Seuss wrote:On July 11 2017 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 11 2017 04:33 NewSunshine wrote:On July 11 2017 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
When Democrats fall on their face in 2018 and probably 2020, remember they were too busy with the important Russia garbage to focus on a real strategy and all the Democrats ate it up.
I'm sure Democrats are already lining up excuses for why Democrats can't beat Republicans and none of them are Democrats fault.
The two parties in this country are absolute trash and there needs to be a healthy amount of shame associated with supporting either one of them at this point. The two parties are trash, but one of them has both majorities right now. When Trump, his family, and his administration, all the people in power right now, are being investigated for serious allegations, you don't get to pass that off as garbage. Other issues may be at play, but that doesn't allow you to sweep another issue under the rug. Two issues are allowed to exist, and be examined, simultaneously. I feel very strongly about healthcare too, but I'm aware that there is an ongoing investigation. It's garbage because our system is designed to not hold them accountable unless it is the politically desirable thing to do. There is no larger principal at play like some sort of "justice", it's merely a political calculation and it would do everyone some good to keep that in mind. It's garbage because it's never been going to amount to anything and it's been distracting Democrats from actually having a plan beyond "Have you seen the other guys!?" To be fair, even before the Russia stuff the primary message being used by the Democrats, including Obama, was "Have you seen the other guys?". It's a big part of what lost them the 2016 election. At the same time I don't think the Russia investigation matters insofar as the Democratic party's inability to come up with a plan or message for 2018 is concerned. It probably doesn't help, but it's not what's preventing the party from getting shit done. The thing about 2018 is that we need to be way closer 2018 before the plan really start to form. It won’t come all at once. Midterm elections are smaller and don’t get the same national, front page internet coverage. Plus if they start running now and people might suffer from of political shell shock from the constant running for election. That didn't stop the Republicans from having a party-level message. Whatever else you can say about the party, around this time in Obama's first term you knew what Republicans were about even if they weren't talking directly about an election. It's harder for the Democrats to do that for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that the party's inability to have a consistent, coherent message during the offseason (as it were) is a huge handicap.
Did Republicans really have a coherent message in July 2009? The ACA was just starting to be developed at that point, and if there was one new message from the GOP that helped them win 2010 it was "we hate the ACA."
Unless you're saying they had a coherent No-Obama message, but that clearly isn't tenable for the Dems. Sure, the Tea Party was getting going, but they still were mostly protests in 2009 and I'm not sure they did much more than back people in 2010 and nuke some establishment people in their party.
|
On July 11 2017 04:59 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2017 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 11 2017 04:33 NewSunshine wrote:On July 11 2017 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
When Democrats fall on their face in 2018 and probably 2020, remember they were too busy with the important Russia garbage to focus on a real strategy and all the Democrats ate it up.
I'm sure Democrats are already lining up excuses for why Democrats can't beat Republicans and none of them are Democrats fault.
The two parties in this country are absolute trash and there needs to be a healthy amount of shame associated with supporting either one of them at this point. The two parties are trash, but one of them has both majorities right now. When Trump, his family, and his administration, all the people in power right now, are being investigated for serious allegations, you don't get to pass that off as garbage. Other issues may be at play, but that doesn't allow you to sweep another issue under the rug. Two issues are allowed to exist, and be examined, simultaneously. I feel very strongly about healthcare too, but I'm aware that there is an ongoing investigation. It's garbage because our system is designed to not hold them accountable unless it is the politically desirable thing to do. There is no larger principal at play like some sort of "justice", it's merely a political calculation and it would do everyone some good to keep that in mind. It's garbage because it's never been going to amount to anything and it's been distracting Democrats from actually having a plan beyond "Have you seen the other guys!?" To be fair, even before the Russia stuff the primary message being used by the Democrats, including Obama, was "Have you seen the other guys?". It's a big part of what lost them the 2016 election. At the same time I don't think the Russia investigation matters insofar as the Democratic party's inability to come up with a plan or message for 2018 is concerned. It probably doesn't help, but it's not what's preventing the party from getting shit done.
I fully agree and said as much during the election regarding the "have you seen the other guy" strategy. Including Hillary's intentional elevation of Trump as "the other guy" as that was pretty much the only viable Republican she consistently beat in polling.
Of course I also think the problem is deeper than the Russia thing, but this Russia thing has kept many rank and file Democrats from recognizing how terrible the leadership was and has been for a while now. It's kept them arguing about how bad the other guy is instead of looking at what Democrats are doing so wrong to lose to the walking dumpster fire that has been Republican elected leadership.
I can tell it's kind of starting to click with people, but every time The WaPo or NYT is able to make a headline out of some random anonymous leak it sucks Democrats back into the Russia gobbledygook and away from why it is that Democrats are so bad at beating Republicans. It's most definitely a leadership problem, and we all know how and why that happened, though many are still unwilling to truly come to terms with it.
Now, if this Russia thing was going somewhere, I could understand it remaining a constant, though reduced, presence. But as it is, it's going nowhere, and it gets more attention than practically anything else. Save for when Democrats had a "look at the other guy" moment on healthcare.
If young, intelligent, successful, upper-middle class, Democrats and liberals like yourselves can't pull your heads out the psychedelic mind warp that is the non-stop Russia kabuki, there's little hope for the people who have no idea how navigate the political landscape.
That's not to say the Russia thing itself is nothing, or that Mueller wont have some interesting tidbits that are probably embarrassing/funzies for the left, or that maybe someone get's caught up and Trump leaves them hanging for one reason or another. But Mueller is going to do what he is going to do and it's not based on how much people chatter about it.
I just can't help but deep sigh every time some other random tweet is posted about some stupid "bombshell" or "breaking" anonymous story about some discussion or meeting.
Meanwhile political incompetence and devotion to donors is killing/letting countless people die/suffer every damn day. I get why people paid to pontificate about this Russia crap are into it, I don't get why so many people give them their best ratings for it, and why folks like those here aren't sick of it themselves.
And no, that's not an excuse for Democrats to pander harder to racist people who don't want to hear about how police habitually and disproportionately violate PoC constitutional rights.
|
Dems don't have a strong message because they aren't calling for revolutionary policies. Dems want the policies we largely have now, but with more spending, liberal courts, more environment regs, and higher capital side taxes. It is hard to have a strong message when the country isn't in crisis and let me emphasize, the country is not in crisis except for the crises that the Trump administration is causing.
We aren't bleeding soldiers to some terrible war, the economy is at its best in a decade, environmental crises are largely managed, healthcare coverage is at its historical peak, and America's global power and influence is at the highest it ever was as measured by international agreements (this changed Jan 20). Obama's ISIS plan is actually working and CENTCOM is running out of targets.
This leaves the Trump administration as the principal crisis that needs to be dealt with. Trump's assault on the free press, objective reality, and America's international power over other nations really are the biggest threats to the country. Trump and the threat of the Republican congressional healthcare plan are the other terrible threat. EDIT: also, Trump selling us out to Russia wholesale at that last meeting with Putin by (1) refusing to commit to investigating and combating Russian election interference, (2) handing off the Assad decision to Putin, (3) not sticking up for Ukraine and simply letting the situation fester without a hint of pushback, and (4) legitimizing Putin as some kind of statesman even as his propaganda networks lay the groundwork for more green men invasions of eastern Europe.
The Dems aren't running on a revolution, they are running to stop a revolution. It isn't a sexy message but it is a worthy one if you are willing to look at the state of the nation on the basis of facts and evidence.
|
On July 11 2017 05:32 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2017 05:15 Seuss wrote:On July 11 2017 05:01 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2017 04:59 Seuss wrote:On July 11 2017 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 11 2017 04:33 NewSunshine wrote:On July 11 2017 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
When Democrats fall on their face in 2018 and probably 2020, remember they were too busy with the important Russia garbage to focus on a real strategy and all the Democrats ate it up.
I'm sure Democrats are already lining up excuses for why Democrats can't beat Republicans and none of them are Democrats fault.
The two parties in this country are absolute trash and there needs to be a healthy amount of shame associated with supporting either one of them at this point. The two parties are trash, but one of them has both majorities right now. When Trump, his family, and his administration, all the people in power right now, are being investigated for serious allegations, you don't get to pass that off as garbage. Other issues may be at play, but that doesn't allow you to sweep another issue under the rug. Two issues are allowed to exist, and be examined, simultaneously. I feel very strongly about healthcare too, but I'm aware that there is an ongoing investigation. It's garbage because our system is designed to not hold them accountable unless it is the politically desirable thing to do. There is no larger principal at play like some sort of "justice", it's merely a political calculation and it would do everyone some good to keep that in mind. It's garbage because it's never been going to amount to anything and it's been distracting Democrats from actually having a plan beyond "Have you seen the other guys!?" To be fair, even before the Russia stuff the primary message being used by the Democrats, including Obama, was "Have you seen the other guys?". It's a big part of what lost them the 2016 election. At the same time I don't think the Russia investigation matters insofar as the Democratic party's inability to come up with a plan or message for 2018 is concerned. It probably doesn't help, but it's not what's preventing the party from getting shit done. The thing about 2018 is that we need to be way closer 2018 before the plan really start to form. It won’t come all at once. Midterm elections are smaller and don’t get the same national, front page internet coverage. Plus if they start running now and people might suffer from of political shell shock from the constant running for election. That didn't stop the Republicans from having a party-level message. Whatever else you can say about the party, around this time in Obama's first term you knew what Republicans were about even if they weren't talking directly about an election. It's harder for the Democrats to do that for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that the party's inability to have a consistent, coherent message during the offseason (as it were) is a huge handicap. Did Republicans really have a coherent message in July 2009? The ACA was just starting to be developed at that point, and if there was one new message from the GOP that helped them win 2010 it was "we hate the ACA." Unless you're saying they had a coherent No-Obama message, but that clearly isn't tenable for the Dems. Sure, the Tea Party was getting going, but they still were mostly protests in 2009 and I'm not sure they did much more than back people in 2010 and nuke some establishment people in their party.
Obama bad, Obama-care bad, taxes and government are holding America back is a pretty easy message to sell. And it was super effective. Republicans have been crushing for almost 20 years by simply running against government itself, in the most cynical manner possible.
|
gh, what makes you think that it's just the russia issue causing that "blindness"? people always find an excuse, if not for russia they'd just latch onto some other excuse rather than look at issues with the leadership. there's no shortage of excuses in the world to look at.
people looking outward rather than inward for problems is extremely common everywhere, and moreso in politics; (and I note you yourself don't do much looking inward either, to yourself, and to your "group/leaders" all humans are like that)
|
The idea that Russia is making people blind to anything is silly. Just because some other issue didn't make the news on a day that something Russia-related did doesn't make those issues disappear. If the Democrats as a whole have a problem, it's not because of this Russia investigation, which is very new in the big picture. And just because the Democrats have problems doesn't make the Russia issue negligible. If nothing else, I will be holding our officials accountable to the results of the investigation come 2018. Your first duty as a citizen is to give a shit and vote.
And to begin with, I'm less inclined to complain about Democrats right now, because they aren't in a position to do much unless the Republicans get over themselves and work together. Once the elections come near, I'll start chewing them out for acting out and getting bad attention, because then it'll matter.
|
We are coming up on the debt ceiling and possible budget talks. If the health care debate sours the GOP on only working within their own party, we could see some movement from the democrats. But I wouldn’t count on it.
|
Initial rumors that they might have to work with the Democrats gave me some hope, but not much. When your health bill is so bad that not only does every single Democrat in the room hate the bill, but a lot of your own people hate it too, that points to much, much deeper issues than having a terrible slogan.
|
I just happened on a really good summary of what Dems want by John Stoehr . I am sure the usual Berners here will ignore this list and focus on nonsense and insane Us-V-1% junk. Even after posting this on point list, John Stoehr gets trolled by Berners whining about "but fracking" without any acknowledgment of how complex of an issue energy production is.
1. Health care for everyone.
2. Higher wages.
3. Equal rights.
4. Responsible gun laws.
5. Stronger unions.
6. Criminal justice reform.
What neoliberal shills want, con't:
7. Anti-monopoly legislation.
8. Campaign finance reform.
9. INFRASTRUCTURE!
10. Green energy policy.
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: to below, YES. The Benghazi investigations got Trump elected and put Republicans in congress. There is no either/or going on. National safe seat guys do the investigating, local and down ticket candidates run on platform.
|
Benghazi seemed to work just fine for the Republicans. I'm not sure it's a bad idea for Trump to be tarred with Russia.
|
I’ve always said that the only way to kill the House Republican’s desire to investigate their opposition is to burn them back. They won’t stop until their own party tells them to back off.
|
@Wulfey: A sensible list, and if Democrats as a whole were smart they'd center themselves on those 6 core issues. Stronger unions happens to be an effective way of securing higher wages for workers, just as effective gun legislature feeds into meaningful criminal justice reform. A lot of those values are just basic building blocks of effective social structures, see most of Europe, but they happen to clash with a lot of old-world American ideals, like how romanticized guns and capitalism are. Ideally though, that's a great platform to go forward with. It just doesn't boil down as cleanly as "less government everywhere", and while that slogan doesn't really mean anything, it gives them a catch phrase.
|
On July 11 2017 06:12 Wulfey_LA wrote:I just happened on a really good summary of what Dems want by John Stoehr . I am sure the usual Berners here will ignore this list and focus on nonsense and insane Us-V-1% junk. Even after posting this on point list, John Stoehr gets trolled by Berners whining about "but fracking" without any acknowledgment of how complex of an issue energy production is. 1. Health care for everyone. 2. Higher wages. 3. Equal rights. 4. Responsible gun laws. 5. Stronger unions. 6. Criminal justice reform. What neoliberal shills want, con't: 7. Anti-monopoly legislation. 8. Campaign finance reform. 9. INFRASTRUCTURE! 10. Green energy policy. + Show Spoiler +EDIT: to below, YES. The Benghazi investigations got Trump elected and put Republicans in congress. There is no either/or going on. National safe seat guys do the investigating, local and down ticket candidates run on platform.
This is a pretty good list. I spent the last 5 minutes trying to think of other things I want as a dem but this nailed most of it
|
The reality is that is going to need to look more like this on the national level:
1: Workers rights/Unions/wages.
2: Election reform/finance reform
3: Criminal justice reform
248th: that other democrat stuff
If people want a focused message about the future of the country, it needs to be that. You can’t have 10 number one priorities for 4 years. You can like 3. Maybe 4. In the midterms, you get like 1 maybe.
|
i'd slightly change healthcare for everyone to quality/ reasonably priced healthcare for everyone, but since it's my field i'm just being picky
and i wouldn't say stronger unions as much as stronger worker protections
maybe financial industry regulation
what about education?
I think you could get up to a 5 point plan, as long as you can sum up each point in like 1 word.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
