|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 24 2016 03:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 03:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it? Why are those the only two options? More likely seems to be you go somewhere to drink. Other people are there for the same reason. Occasionally you meet people less drunk than you. Occasionally drunker. I think a lot of people of both genders drink for the express reason of easing inhibitions. Honestly I'm not entirely sure what this post is arguing, could you elaborate? Going to a bar where you know the men/women there are intoxicated and hence are of unsound mind means you went there knowing that the people you'd be sleeping with are of unsound mind. It seems normal to you to do that, because we live in a rape culture society where fucking people of unsound mind is considered normal, and to some people preferred. It seems normal to me because that has been the state of human affairs for the entire existance of our society. I bet more people drink to deal with their own shyness than any other reason. We can argue whether that's a desireable state of things (I dont drink and am in long term relationship so doesnt affect me) but it is normal. I agree that society normalizes it. Which is why I believe the problem is societal, not individual. I don't think everything is good and these evil rapists are out there trying to trick the system. I believe we are in a society that makes it cloudy what rape is because of the types of institutions and cultural practices it allows and considers normal, and these gray areas cause both intended and unintended cases of rape.
Wasn't there some survey done that found that younger people seem to be pretty confused about the whole issue? Like a good portion of them didn't really know what constitutes consent.
|
No wonder, just look at this discussion.
"Don't be an asshole" somehow isn't enough anymore
|
On November 24 2016 03:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:16 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust. If you want to discuss me again, please post in good faith. If you really think this style of posting is going to get us somewhere, then you probably aren't responsible enough to drink. You said that men aren't held to a higher standard, but then you said that men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. If that were true, then the things I said would also be true, no matter how I happened to phrase it. You claim that we are discussing this because men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. How is this not saying that woman are helpless? They could just not drink correct? You also dodge the actual issue we have been discussing the entire time in which both persons are drunk. I even specifically said in my first post in this discussion that someone getting another intoxicated for the express purposes of taking advantage of them is rape. I can understand you not appreciating the tone I took, and for that I apologize, but the underlying points still stand. No, that's not my claim. We're having this discussion because people don't all put the level of incapacitation at the same point. To some people, it means "passed out drunk". They are wrong. To some people, it means "having had a sip of beer". They are wrong as well. My point, regarding this, would be that in unclear cases, caution is the much better choice. That's a simple point. Now, in this broader conversation, your side brings up the argument that there is a different standard for women and men. And you are correct, there is. This different standard happens because when I get drunk with my friends, I'm not going to get raped. I get to enjoy drinking a lot of alcohol without wondering whether my irresponsible action of drinking a lot of alcohol that night is going to lead to me getting fucked when I didn't want to. There is a different standard because based on my gender, I have a different situation. Now this observation is obviously true. So you have two options. Either you can acknowledge it, and stop complaining about different standards being applied to different situations, or you can move to hyperboles where women are helpless and men are predators. Those are your two choices. One of them is much less appealing than the other for an honest conversation.
Wait. So when a guy wakes up and thinks "damn, I had sex with her?!!!" it's not rape, but when a girl thinks that it is? Or the lesser version, but still regretting what happened: "whoops. shit. I made a huge mistake having sex with her last night."
Is it because your machista world can only conceive of men taking advantage of drunk girls and not the other way round?
Because there doesn't seem to be any real reason why a girl has to worry when getting blind drunk, but a man doesn't.
And I have done plenty of really stupid shit when blind drunk that I regretted the next morning. So there's a very good reason why men shouldn't get blind drunk either.
|
On November 24 2016 04:00 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:36 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 03:16 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust. If you want to discuss me again, please post in good faith. If you really think this style of posting is going to get us somewhere, then you probably aren't responsible enough to drink. You said that men aren't held to a higher standard, but then you said that men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. If that were true, then the things I said would also be true, no matter how I happened to phrase it. You claim that we are discussing this because men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. How is this not saying that woman are helpless? They could just not drink correct? You also dodge the actual issue we have been discussing the entire time in which both persons are drunk. I even specifically said in my first post in this discussion that someone getting another intoxicated for the express purposes of taking advantage of them is rape. I can understand you not appreciating the tone I took, and for that I apologize, but the underlying points still stand. No, that's not my claim. We're having this discussion because people don't all put the level of incapacitation at the same point. To some people, it means "passed out drunk". They are wrong. To some people, it means "having had a sip of beer". They are wrong as well. My point, regarding this, would be that in unclear cases, caution is the much better choice. That's a simple point. Now, in this broader conversation, your side brings up the argument that there is a different standard for women and men. And you are correct, there is. This different standard happens because when I get drunk with my friends, I'm not going to get raped. I get to enjoy drinking a lot of alcohol without wondering whether my irresponsible action of drinking a lot of alcohol that night is going to lead to me getting fucked when I didn't want to. There is a different standard because based on my gender, I have a different situation. Now this observation is obviously true. So you have two options. Either you can acknowledge it, and stop complaining about different standards being applied to different situations, or you can move to hyperboles where women are helpless and men are predators. Those are your two choices. One of them is much less appealing than the other for an honest conversation. Wait. So when a guy wakes up and thinks "damn, I had sex with her?!!!" it's not rape, but when a girl thinks that it is? Or the lesser version, but still regretting what happened: "whoops. shit. I made a huge mistake having sex with her last night." Is it because your machista world can only conceive of men taking advantage of drunk girls and not the other way round? Because there doesn't seem to be any real reason why a girl has to worry when getting blind drunk, but a man doesn't. And I have done plenty of really stupid shit when blind drunk that I regretted the next morning. So there's a very good reason why men shouldn't get blind drunk either.
I don't think you read his post.
|
On November 24 2016 03:56 Velr wrote:
No wonder, just look at this discussion.
"Don't be an asshole" somehow isn't enough anymore
I think the discussion is specifically "where is the line between asshole and well intentioned"
|
On November 24 2016 03:51 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 03:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it? Why are those the only two options? More likely seems to be you go somewhere to drink. Other people are there for the same reason. Occasionally you meet people less drunk than you. Occasionally drunker. I think a lot of people of both genders drink for the express reason of easing inhibitions. Honestly I'm not entirely sure what this post is arguing, could you elaborate? Going to a bar where you know the men/women there are intoxicated and hence are of unsound mind means you went there knowing that the people you'd be sleeping with are of unsound mind. It seems normal to you to do that, because we live in a rape culture society where fucking people of unsound mind is considered normal, and to some people preferred. It seems normal to me because that has been the state of human affairs for the entire existance of our society. I bet more people drink to deal with their own shyness than any other reason. We can argue whether that's a desireable state of things (I dont drink and am in long term relationship so doesnt affect me) but it is normal. I agree that society normalizes it. Which is why I believe the problem is societal, not individual. I don't think everything is good and these evil rapists are out there trying to trick the system. I believe we are in a society that makes it cloudy what rape is because of the types of institutions and cultural practices it allows and considers normal, and these gray areas cause both intended and unintended cases of rape. Wasn't there some survey done that found that younger people seem to be pretty confused about the whole issue? Like a good portion of them didn't really know what constitutes consent.
Which is part of the reason there are laws stating only certain age groups are considered "of sound mind"
|
On November 24 2016 03:18 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:10 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs? Its the one allowed by society. Right now you need consent if both are sober. Right now you need consent if only one of you is sober. But people are arguing that consent is not needed if neither are sober. Hence, the emphasis on legalized and popular modes of de-sobreity. I think in the third one, people are arguing that consent is possible when both parties are not sober. My reading of your opinion is that the consent given by non-sober parties is not applicable as they are not of sound mind when giving that consent.
Yes, that is the current societal norm in western societies. You're considered unable to give consent unless the other person is also unable to give consent. There is no logical reason why this makes the consent go from bad to good, but westerners are simply okay with it.
|
United States15275 Posts
On November 24 2016 04:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Yes, that is the current societal norm in western societies. You're considered unable to give consent unless the other person is also unable to give consent. There is no logical reason why this makes the consent go from bad to good, but westerners are simply okay with it.
There's a perfectly logical reason, you're just not using logic to figure it out.
Also, stop using "Westerners" as a catch-all phrase for God knows what. It's painfully obvious that you lack the historical knowledge to make such a claim. There's nothing more tiresome than when people try to imply that certain bad norms are uniquely "Western", as if they suffer some bizarre sense of shame for the sins of whatever they are bothered about. If you're going to attempt such a claim, have the decency to trace the genealogy of the norm/idea.
|
On November 24 2016 04:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 04:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Yes, that is the current societal norm in western societies. You're considered unable to give consent unless the other person is also unable to give consent. There is no logical reason why this makes the consent go from bad to good, but westerners are simply okay with it. There's a perfectly logical reason, you're just not using logic to figure it out. Also, stop using "Westerners" as a catch-all phrase for God knows what. It's painfully obvious that you lack the historical knowledge to make such a claim.
Are we not part of western culture? Aren't most people I am talking to currently people who fee part of western culture?
EDIT:
What's the reason? Do tell. How can a person's consent go from bad or acceptable dependent on the requester as opposed to the consenter?
|
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/307393-trump-jr-holds-private-talks-on-syria-with-pro-russia-figure-report Donald Trump Jr. held private talks with a pro-Russia figure in Paris last month that included how the U.S. might cooperate with Russia to bring an end to the civil war in Syria, The Wall Street Journal reports.
The Oct. 11 meeting reportedly included 30 diplomats, businessmen and politicians. It was hosted by a French think tank founded by Fabien Baussart, who, along with wife Randa Kassis, has worked with Russia to bring an end to the violence.
Kassis, who was born in Syria, heads an opposition group that seeks to cooperate with President Bashar al-Assad to ensure a smooth political transition in Syria. The group is endorsed by Moscow.
Kassis reported that she pressed President-elect Donald Trump's son on the need for cooperation with Russia to bring an end to the conflict.
“We have to be realistic. Who’s on the ground in Syria? Not the U.S., not France,” Kassis told the Journal from Moscow. “Without Russia, we can’t have any solution in Syria.”
“I think he’s very pragmatic and is flexible,” Kassis said of Trump Jr.
Kassis said she has discussed the meeting with senior Russian officials, including Russian foreign ministry deputy head Mikhail Bogdanov.
Kellyanne Conway, a senior adviser to the president-elect, confirmed Trump Jr.’s attendance at the October meeting but downplayed the discussions about Syria, according to the Journal.
“Don was addressing a roundtable in Paris, and he was present for that talk and at a group dinner for 30 people,” she told the Journal. “This event featured a number of opinion leaders from all over the world who were interested in the U.S. elections.”
|
United States15275 Posts
On November 24 2016 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Are we not part of western culture? Aren't most people I am talking to currently people who fee part of western culture?
Aren't most people in Japan part of Western culture since they culturally adapted consumerism post-WWII? Or do we get to choose what constitutes Western culture a la carte whenever it's convenient?
On November 24 2016 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:
What's the reason? Do tell. How can a person's consent go from bad or acceptable dependent on the requester as opposed to the consenter?
If a person kills someone while they're sleepwalking, are they charged with first-degree murder?
|
This is getting retarded. Neb starts with saying woman have to worry about things men don't. To which I reply "so woman are helpless and men are held to a different standard" followed by Neb saying that no it isn't a higher standard:
On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't.
So he says men are out getting women drunk and raping them a lot. So I respond again, doubling down that he is painting woman as helpless and now men as predatory (in perhaps the wrong tone for an actual discussion but anyways):
On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust.
Which, he was. How is saying "men are out getting woman drunk and raping them" not saying that woman are in danger whenever they go drinking in public and that men are predatory.
Then I get accused of posting in bad faith. K, fine.
But the annoying part of all of this, is that he(?) then says "you are correct there is a double standard", and then says that I am being hyperbolic in saying woman are helpless and men predators when he(?) was the one who said men are out raping woman.
On November 24 2016 03:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:16 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust. If you want to discuss me again, please post in good faith. If you really think this style of posting is going to get us somewhere, then you probably aren't responsible enough to drink. You said that men aren't held to a higher standard, but then you said that men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. If that were true, then the things I said would also be true, no matter how I happened to phrase it. You claim that we are discussing this because men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. How is this not saying that woman are helpless? They could just not drink correct? You also dodge the actual issue we have been discussing the entire time in which both persons are drunk. I even specifically said in my first post in this discussion that someone getting another intoxicated for the express purposes of taking advantage of them is rape. I can understand you not appreciating the tone I took, and for that I apologize, but the underlying points still stand. No, that's not my claim. We're having this discussion because people don't all put the level of incapacitation at the same point. To some people, it means "passed out drunk". They are wrong. To some people, it means "having had a sip of beer". They are wrong as well. My point, regarding this, would be that in unclear cases, caution is the much better choice. That's a simple point. Now, in this broader conversation, your side brings up the argument that there is a different standard for women and men. And you are correct, there is. This different standard happens because when I get drunk with my friends, I'm not going to get raped. I get to enjoy drinking a lot of alcohol without wondering whether my irresponsible action of drinking a lot of alcohol that night is going to lead to me getting fucked when I didn't want to. There is a different standard because based on my gender, I have a different situation. Now this observation is obviously true. So you have two options. Either you can acknowledge it, and stop complaining about different standards being applied to different situations, or you can move to hyperboles where women are helpless and men are predators. Those are your two choices. One of them is much less appealing than the other for an honest conversation.
You don't get to start off by saying that woman are in danger of being raped by men whenever they go out drinking and then say I am being hyperbolic when I say you are painting woman as helpless and men as predators.
|
Hyrule18980 Posts
Can everyone stop posting terribly? You were all doing so well for a while there.
|
From what I've been reading, the standards of prosecuting rape when intoxication is involved varies from state to state. Some require proof of intent that the rapist knowingly took advantage of their intoxicated state, while others only need to show that the victim was sufficiently intoxicated to the point where they were too mentally incapacitated to consent to sex. I read about a case where the victim was black out drunk, didn't remember much the morning after, but gave clear consent before the act, so the defendant was exonerated.
The only real constant is that there is no defined, measurable limit of intoxication (prior to unconsciousness) where they are deemed unworthy to give consent. It's largely treated on a case by case basis with other influencing factors taken into account.
When it comes to college campuses, their codes of conduct tend to be much more strict. Some require no intoxication between the parties at all for consent to be given, like California and their recently passed senate bill #967. They are also not bound by due process or presumptions of innocence, so you can be expelled on accusations alone as seen in a case like this, among others.
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/04/19/csu-pueblo-grant-neal-suspension-consensual-sex/
If you're an adult, use common sense. Don't take advantage of people. If you're a college student, don't uh...just don't...don't do anything. at all.
|
On November 24 2016 04:53 tofucake wrote:
Can everyone stop posting terribly? You were all doing so well for a while there.
It'd be helpful if this were clarified more; if ban/warning reasons were collected and specified somewhere so people could review problematic cases and such. I checked the ABL for instance, and the'res no link ot the offending post so it's hard to learn from others' lessons.
|
On November 24 2016 04:53 tofucake wrote:
Can everyone stop posting terribly? You were all doing so well for a while there.
I'm sure every person thinks to themselves "time to post terribly", right? Perhaps some detail would be helpful for people.
|
On November 24 2016 03:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I believe we are in a society that makes it cloudy what rape is because of the types of institutions and cultural practices it allows and considers normal, and these gray areas cause both intended and unintended cases of rape.
it can be cloudy. that is the nature of reality and not of a culture. the libertarians i know try to do the same thing with threat aspect of the crime of assault. they try to turn these 2 crimes into something binary and in certain instances threats and rape are cloudy issues.
very smart people take advantage of the ambiguous nature of human communication to make it almost impossible to ever be prosecuted for making a threat even though the threat is all too real.
very smart people will always get away with more crimes and be almost impossible to catch. its part of living in a free society.
very smart viewbotters will be able to rig the system and get higher up on Twitch.tv. dumb viewbotters got caught.
another example,
Did OJ Simpson commit murder?
|
Hyrule18980 Posts
On November 24 2016 05:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 04:53 tofucake wrote:
Can everyone stop posting terribly? You were all doing so well for a while there. I'm sure every person thinks to themselves "time to post terribly", right? Perhaps some detail would be helpful for people.
Abide by the TL 10 Commandments; abide by the thread rules; don't be a condescending ass; discuss points, don't argue with posters; if at any point you question whether you should post something, don't post it.
It's pretty straightforward
|
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 24 2016 05:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 04:53 tofucake wrote:
Can everyone stop posting terribly? You were all doing so well for a while there. I'm sure every person thinks to themselves "time to post terribly", right? Perhaps some detail would be helpful for people.
I think his point was that the discussion started out well then people resorted to one-liners, started posting irritationally or not contributing to the discussion. Eventually, posts became more passive aggressive and weren't as full of substance.
|
On November 24 2016 05:15 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 05:12 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 04:53 tofucake wrote:
Can everyone stop posting terribly? You were all doing so well for a while there. I'm sure every person thinks to themselves "time to post terribly", right? Perhaps some detail would be helpful for people. Abide by the TL 10 Commandments; abide by the thread rules; don't be a condescending ass; discuss points, don't argue with posters; if at any point you question whether you should post something, don't post it. It's pretty straightforward
Don't argue with posters in a political thread?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
