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On November 24 2016 03:10 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs?
Its the one allowed by society.
Right now you need consent if both are sober.
Right now you need consent if only one of you is sober.
But people are arguing that consent is not needed if neither are sober.
Hence, the emphasis on legalized and popular modes of de-sobreity.
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On November 24 2016 03:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:08 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here. I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you. Can you justify this? I honestly can not remember the last time I did something I wouldn't normally do when drunk. The key to your argument seems to be the complete dismantling of consent as soon as someone is drunk. I think you need to more thoroughly define what you are saying constitutes "drunk". Do you drink? It feels like you have a very skewed understanding of what alcohol does to people. No, that was a conversation I had with Velr. In that discussion, he said he has fucked people he regretted fucking before and then said that that doesn't count as rape. I then said to him majority of rape victims don't report their cases for the same reason. I then said to him that if your ability to make decisions should you have been in sound mind gets hampered, then it is possible you have been raped. ie--the statement "you would not have done it if you weren't drunk" is as bad as saying "would not have done it if I didn't imbibe a ruffie" Being of sound enough mind to consent is the whole point of my argument. And if you believe that being intoxicated enough that you make decisions you regret counts as being of sound mind, then I disagree with you.
would not have done it if not horny, would not have done it if not stressed, would not have if not for peer pressure. Why are you arbitrarily singling out alcohol as a cause to disrupt someone's state of mind? This is childish.
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On November 24 2016 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here. I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you.
You called it rape several times yourself. No, i myself don't see it like that. There needs to be a diffrence between doing something stupid and doing something truely horrible. We make this distinction just about everywhere.
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On November 24 2016 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust. If you want to discuss me again, please post in good faith. If you really think this style of posting is going to get us somewhere, then you probably aren't responsible enough to drink.
You said that men aren't held to a higher standard, but then you said that men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. If that were true, then the things I said would also be true, no matter how I happened to phrase it.
You claim that we are discussing this because men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. How is this not saying that woman are helpless? They could just not drink correct? You also dodge the actual issue we have been discussing the entire time in which both persons are drunk. I even specifically said in my first post in this discussion that someone getting another intoxicated for the express purposes of taking advantage of them is rape.
I can understand you not appreciating the tone I took, and for that I apologize, but the underlying points still stand.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 24 2016 03:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it? Why are those the only two options? More likely seems to be you go somewhere to drink. Other people are there for the same reason. Occasionally you meet people less drunk than you. Occasionally drunker. I think a lot of people of both genders drink for the express reason of easing inhibitions. Honestly I'm not entirely sure what this post is arguing, could you elaborate? Going to a bar where you know the men/women there are intoxicated and hence are of unsound mind means you went there knowing that the people you'd be sleeping with are of unsound mind. It seems normal to you to do that, because we live in a rape culture society where fucking people of unsound mind is considered normal, and to some people preferred.
It seems normal to me because that has been the state of human affairs for the entire existance of our society.
I bet more people drink to deal with their own shyness than any other reason.
We can argue whether that's a desireable state of things (I dont drink and am in long term relationship so doesnt affect me) but it is normal.
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On November 24 2016 03:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:10 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs? Its the one allowed by society. Right now you need consent if both are sober. Right now you need consent if only one of you is sober. But people are arguing that consent is not needed if neither are sober. Hence, the emphasis on legalized and popular modes of de-sobreity.
I think in the third one, people are arguing that consent is possible when both parties are not sober. My reading of your opinion is that the consent given by non-sober parties is not applicable as they are not of sound mind when giving that consent.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 24 2016 03:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:10 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs? Its the one allowed by society. Right now you need consent if both are sober. Right now you need consent if only one of you is sober. But people are arguing that consent is not needed if neither are sober. Hence, the emphasis on legalized and popular modes of de-sobreity.
Actually I guess Im arguing that if both people are equally drunk then the consent given is valid.
Kinda like how consent between two underage people is valid (at least where I come from, as far as i am aware) but if one party isnt then consent can not be given.
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On November 24 2016 03:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it? Why are those the only two options? More likely seems to be you go somewhere to drink. Other people are there for the same reason. Occasionally you meet people less drunk than you. Occasionally drunker. I think a lot of people of both genders drink for the express reason of easing inhibitions. Honestly I'm not entirely sure what this post is arguing, could you elaborate? Going to a bar where you know the men/women there are intoxicated and hence are of unsound mind means you went there knowing that the people you'd be sleeping with are of unsound mind. It seems normal to you to do that, because we live in a rape culture society where fucking people of unsound mind is considered normal, and to some people preferred. It seems normal to me because that has been the state of human affairs for the entire existance of our society. I bet more people drink to deal with their own shyness than any other reason. We can argue whether that's a desireable state of things (I dont drink and am in long term relationship so doesnt affect me) but it is normal.
I agree that society normalizes it.
Which is why I believe the problem is societal, not individual.
I don't think everything is good and these evil rapists are out there trying to trick the system. I believe we are in a society that makes it cloudy what rape is because of the types of institutions and cultural practices it allows and considers normal, and these gray areas cause both intended and unintended cases of rape.
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On November 24 2016 03:15 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here. I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you. Can you justify this? I honestly can not remember the last time I did something I wouldn't normally do when drunk. The key to your argument seems to be the complete dismantling of consent as soon as someone is drunk. I think you need to more thoroughly define what you are saying constitutes "drunk". Do you drink? It feels like you have a very skewed understanding of what alcohol does to people. No, that was a conversation I had with Velr. In that discussion, he said he has fucked people he regretted fucking before and then said that that doesn't count as rape. I then said to him majority of rape victims don't report their cases for the same reason. I then said to him that if your ability to make decisions should you have been in sound mind gets hampered, then it is possible you have been raped. ie--the statement "you would not have done it if you weren't drunk" is as bad as saying "would not have done it if I didn't imbibe a ruffie" Being of sound enough mind to consent is the whole point of my argument. And if you believe that being intoxicated enough that you make decisions you regret counts as being of sound mind, then I disagree with you. would not have done it if not horny, would not have done it if not stressed, would not have if not for peer pressure. Why are you arbitrarily singling out alcohol as a cause to disrupt someone's state of mind? This is childish.
Do you believe being horny makes people of unsound mind? Like, if you signed a lease but the lawyer was sexy the judge should revoke that contract?
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United States15275 Posts
On November 24 2016 03:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Are you saying that when we were cavemen living in the darkness, the one thing women wanted to do was get drunk in nightclubs and bars? OR is it that we live in a society that has nightclubs and bars, and now women want to go to it?
Men and women want to get drunk to the extent that drunkenness is liberating. Social drinking is not a Western phenomenon, and communal activities along the same vein have existed since Sumer.
On November 24 2016 03:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Society is not a monolithic "thing" it is the world around us as it is.
Which is:
1. A meaningless statement without definition.
2. A claim without any particulars to discuss.
3. Contradicts the basis of your argument, unless you want to take a deontological view of morality.
On November 24 2016 03:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Do you believe being horny makes people of unsound mind?
If you can make assumptions about the nature of consent without evidence or a explanatory theory, other people can too. What constitutes "unsound mind" anyway when we are not talking about psychological deviance?
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On November 24 2016 03:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:15 biology]major wrote:On November 24 2016 03:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here. I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you. Can you justify this? I honestly can not remember the last time I did something I wouldn't normally do when drunk. The key to your argument seems to be the complete dismantling of consent as soon as someone is drunk. I think you need to more thoroughly define what you are saying constitutes "drunk". Do you drink? It feels like you have a very skewed understanding of what alcohol does to people. No, that was a conversation I had with Velr. In that discussion, he said he has fucked people he regretted fucking before and then said that that doesn't count as rape. I then said to him majority of rape victims don't report their cases for the same reason. I then said to him that if your ability to make decisions should you have been in sound mind gets hampered, then it is possible you have been raped. ie--the statement "you would not have done it if you weren't drunk" is as bad as saying "would not have done it if I didn't imbibe a ruffie" Being of sound enough mind to consent is the whole point of my argument. And if you believe that being intoxicated enough that you make decisions you regret counts as being of sound mind, then I disagree with you. would not have done it if not horny, would not have done it if not stressed, would not have if not for peer pressure. Why are you arbitrarily singling out alcohol as a cause to disrupt someone's state of mind? This is childish. Do you believe being horny makes people of unsound mind? Like, if you signed a lease but the lawyer was sexy the judge should revoke that contract?
Being horny definitely makes people of unsound mind
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On November 24 2016 03:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:10 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs? Its the one allowed by society. Right now you need consent if both are sober. Right now you need consent if only one of you is sober. But people are arguing that consent is not needed if neither are sober. Hence, the emphasis on legalized and popular modes of de-sobreity.
No, you are arguing that it's not consent if they're not sober. Nobody is arguing they don't need it. You're arguing you can't give it. It's completely different. Also, you brought alcohol into the discussion and have some unreasonable focus on it. Even bringing cavemen and their fetish for nightclubs into this bizarre construct of yours.
People can consent when drunk. People can consent when on weed. People can consent when on fucking heroin.
People can be taken advantage when sober.
People can be taken advantage of when drunk.
People can be taken advantage of when stoned.
People can be taken advantage of when high.
See, alcohol is not necessary for this discussion. Because people can be horny as fuck when sober, and be perfectly capable of regretting of having sex with that fugly girl the next day. That doesn't mean the girl raped him. But then your entire construct goes down the toilet, so you fixate on alcohol instead.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 24 2016 03:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 03:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it? Why are those the only two options? More likely seems to be you go somewhere to drink. Other people are there for the same reason. Occasionally you meet people less drunk than you. Occasionally drunker. I think a lot of people of both genders drink for the express reason of easing inhibitions. Honestly I'm not entirely sure what this post is arguing, could you elaborate? Going to a bar where you know the men/women there are intoxicated and hence are of unsound mind means you went there knowing that the people you'd be sleeping with are of unsound mind. It seems normal to you to do that, because we live in a rape culture society where fucking people of unsound mind is considered normal, and to some people preferred. It seems normal to me because that has been the state of human affairs for the entire existance of our society. I bet more people drink to deal with their own shyness than any other reason. We can argue whether that's a desireable state of things (I dont drink and am in long term relationship so doesnt affect me) but it is normal. I agree that society normalizes it. Which is why I believe the problem is societal, not individual. I don't think everything is good and these evil rapists are out there trying to trick the system. I believe we are in a society that makes it cloudy what rape is because of the types of institutions and cultural practices it allows and considers normal, and these gray areas cause both intended and unintended cases of rape.
I think your terminology is doing you a huge disservice. Using such a loaded term that conflates this normalized behavior with that of violent predators will only lead to people closing themselves off to your points.
There should be better terms than accidental rape... that feels almost like an oxymoron.
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On November 24 2016 03:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:15 biology]major wrote:On November 24 2016 03:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here. I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you. Can you justify this? I honestly can not remember the last time I did something I wouldn't normally do when drunk. The key to your argument seems to be the complete dismantling of consent as soon as someone is drunk. I think you need to more thoroughly define what you are saying constitutes "drunk". Do you drink? It feels like you have a very skewed understanding of what alcohol does to people. No, that was a conversation I had with Velr. In that discussion, he said he has fucked people he regretted fucking before and then said that that doesn't count as rape. I then said to him majority of rape victims don't report their cases for the same reason. I then said to him that if your ability to make decisions should you have been in sound mind gets hampered, then it is possible you have been raped. ie--the statement "you would not have done it if you weren't drunk" is as bad as saying "would not have done it if I didn't imbibe a ruffie" Being of sound enough mind to consent is the whole point of my argument. And if you believe that being intoxicated enough that you make decisions you regret counts as being of sound mind, then I disagree with you. would not have done it if not horny, would not have done it if not stressed, would not have if not for peer pressure. Why are you arbitrarily singling out alcohol as a cause to disrupt someone's state of mind? This is childish. Do you believe being horny makes people of unsound mind? Like, if you signed a lease but the lawyer was sexy the judge should revoke that contract?
Its proven that men actually get dumber when talking to attractive woman.
So, how can you ever argue with "having a sound mind"?
You are the one that wants consent to only be possible when on the height of our senses, everyone else seems to tell you that this is not how humans work. Its your hill to die on.
Edit: and jinro just spoke out my biggest problem in this whole discussion.
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On November 24 2016 03:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:10 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs? Its the one allowed by society. Right now you need consent if both are sober. Right now you need consent if only one of you is sober. But people are arguing that consent is not needed if neither are sober. Hence, the emphasis on legalized and popular modes of de-sobreity. Actually I guess Im arguing that if both people are equally drunk then the consent given is valid. Kinda like how consent between two underage people is valid (at least where I come from, as far as i am aware) but if one party isnt then consent can not be given.
Requiring both parties to be drunk doesn't make sense to me. I mean, you're hitting it off with a person who's somewhat drunk, so now you're obligated to get drunk for it to be socially acceptable?
I would think you either accept consent can be given while drunk (up to a certain point) or you don't. I'm inclined towards the former.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 24 2016 03:33 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 24 2016 03:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:10 Acrofales wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs? Its the one allowed by society. Right now you need consent if both are sober. Right now you need consent if only one of you is sober. But people are arguing that consent is not needed if neither are sober. Hence, the emphasis on legalized and popular modes of de-sobreity. Actually I guess Im arguing that if both people are equally drunk then the consent given is valid. Kinda like how consent between two underage people is valid (at least where I come from, as far as i am aware) but if one party isnt then consent can not be given. Requiring both parties to be drunk doesn't make sense to me. I mean, you're hitting it off with a person who's somewhat drunk, so now you're obligated to get drunk for it to be socially acceptable? I would think you either accept consent can be given while drunk (up to a certain point) or you don't. I'm inclined towards the former.
You are correct, in that that's how I feel. The both being drunk bit is a carryover from earlier example situations.
The underage example is more for if both peoplr are drunk enough that if one party was sober, it would be sketchy.
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On November 24 2016 03:16 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust. If you want to discuss me again, please post in good faith. If you really think this style of posting is going to get us somewhere, then you probably aren't responsible enough to drink. You said that men aren't held to a higher standard, but then you said that men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. If that were true, then the things I said would also be true, no matter how I happened to phrase it. You claim that we are discussing this because men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. How is this not saying that woman are helpless? They could just not drink correct? You also dodge the actual issue we have been discussing the entire time in which both persons are drunk. I even specifically said in my first post in this discussion that someone getting another intoxicated for the express purposes of taking advantage of them is rape. I can understand you not appreciating the tone I took, and for that I apologize, but the underlying points still stand.
No, that's not my claim. We're having this discussion because people don't all put the level of incapacitation at the same point. To some people, it means "passed out drunk". They are wrong. To some people, it means "having had a sip of beer". They are wrong as well.
My point, regarding this, would be that in unclear cases, caution is the much better choice. That's a simple point.
Now, in this broader conversation, your side brings up the argument that there is a different standard for women and men. And you are correct, there is. This different standard happens because when I get drunk with my friends, I'm not going to get raped. I get to enjoy drinking a lot of alcohol without wondering whether my irresponsible action of drinking a lot of alcohol that night is going to lead to me getting fucked when I didn't want to. There is a different standard because based on my gender, I have a different situation.
Now this observation is obviously true. So you have two options. Either you can acknowledge it, and stop complaining about different standards being applied to different situations, or you can move to hyperboles where women are helpless and men are predators. Those are your two choices. One of them is much less appealing than the other for an honest conversation.
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On November 24 2016 03:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Ha! Anyone can sound reasonable and intelligent when they have all the time in the world to craft a post.
This site seems full of proof to the contrary 
On an unrelated note, let the looting begin.
President-elect Donald Trump on Wednesday selected two prominent Republican women for Cabinet-level positions, adding diversity to an inner circle that was already coming under fire for being composed mostly of white men.
In a potentially controversial choice, Trump intends to nominate billionaire philanthropist Betsy DeVos for education secretary, people familiar with the selection said, turning to a conservative activist who has forcefully pushed for private school voucher programs.
Hours earlier, Trump had announced that he will fill the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations slot with South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, a rising Republican star and daughter of Indian immigrants.
Haley’s nomination had marked Trump’s first female appointment to a Cabinet-level post and comes as his advisers are seeking to diversify the incoming administration’s ranks. Haley, a former Trump critic, is generally considered a mainstream Republican, with views on military and national security matters that fall within the GOP’s hawkish mainstream. She has little foreign policy experience.
“Governor Haley has a proven track record of bringing people together regardless of background or party affiliation to move critical policies forward for the betterment of her state and our country,” Trump said in a statement. “She will be a great leader representing us on the world stage.”
Trump nominates two prominent GOP women: DeVos as education secretary, Haley as U.N. ambassador
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@nebuch
You could be decieved into having sex, which is rape according to some here. Thats the whole problem.
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On November 24 2016 03:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:16 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:09 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust. If you want to discuss me again, please post in good faith. If you really think this style of posting is going to get us somewhere, then you probably aren't responsible enough to drink. You said that men aren't held to a higher standard, but then you said that men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. If that were true, then the things I said would also be true, no matter how I happened to phrase it. You claim that we are discussing this because men are out getting woman drunk and taking advantage of them. How is this not saying that woman are helpless? They could just not drink correct? You also dodge the actual issue we have been discussing the entire time in which both persons are drunk. I even specifically said in my first post in this discussion that someone getting another intoxicated for the express purposes of taking advantage of them is rape. I can understand you not appreciating the tone I took, and for that I apologize, but the underlying points still stand. No, that's not my claim. We're having this discussion because people don't all put the level of incapacitation at the same point. To some people, it means "passed out drunk". They are wrong. To some people, it means "having had a sip of beer". They are wrong as well. My point, regarding this, would be that in unclear cases, caution is the much better choice. That's a simple point. Now, in this broader conversation, your side brings up the argument that there is a different standard for women and men. And you are correct, there is. This different standard happens because when I get drunk with my friends, I'm not going to get raped. I get to enjoy drinking a lot of alcohol without wondering whether my irresponsible action of drinking a lot of alcohol that night is going to lead to me getting fucked when I didn't want to. There is a different standard because based on my gender, I have a different situation. Now this observation is obviously true. So you have two options. Either you can acknowledge it, and stop complaining about different standards being applied to different situations, or you can move to hyperboles where women are helpless and men are predators. Those are your two choices. One of them is much less appealing than the other for an honest conversation.
I've just been arguing that two people being drunk, having sex, and one regretting it later, is not rape. You then came in with stuff along the lines of "we are having this discussion because men go out and track down drunk woman", yet I began the discussion by making a clear distinction between two drunk people (which is what the entire thread has been discussing for the last several pages) and someone going out with the purpose of taking advantage of drunk chicks (which I said was rape when I first entered the conversation).
At this point we aren't even arguing the same thing anymore, so this is rather pointless when I am discussing "two people being drunk and having sex isn't rape" and you are discussing something else.
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