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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 24 2016 02:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:52 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Being that you brought up women while I was only using Person A and Person B in my examples, the real question is why did you bring it up? My first example to Jinro was literally of a woman taking advantage of a man without his consent. I didn't read the past few pages because that sounds miserable. I jumped in at this point and saw you use a woman as an example.
You literally brought it up.
On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine.
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On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it?
What if I go out drinking with friends not intending to hook up with someone? I happen to be drunk, and so do they. If I am able to still prevent myself from making regretful decisions, why should I assume they are not? Why do I have to assume such complete lack of responsibility?
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On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them.
So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public?
+ Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape?
User was warned for this post
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On November 24 2016 02:54 Velr wrote:
Even animals get drunk from fruits and they actually do it on purpose.
I mainly think its bad to fight "rape culture" this way because it hugely dimishes "real" rape.
Same with sexual harassment, the meaning of these words just gets more and more inflated and i think this makes them weaker/dimishes the gravitas of the actual cases and how it makes our societies feel about the victims.
That's a different argument altogether.
Does it seem inflated because its more reported or does it seem inflated because you don't think the experience is that big a deal?
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On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:36 Velr wrote:
I actually had this situation in all variations, normally when i'm out to party i don't look for sex. It has happened, sometimes it was good, sometimes not so much and i also have refused it plenty of times.
I just find the notion that consent does't count, as you elaborated nicely, if the parties are drunk plain ridiculous.
I'm actually a really nice guy when it comes to this stuff, probably "nicer" than I should be. Wrongfully so, but I actually assume most people here on TL (even the ones I yell at a lot) are really good intelligent people. But that's because of my bias as a fellow TL poster. The issue is not with what you've done and how you feel about it (anecdotal evidence is not good enough for peer review for a reason) but on the philosophy at hand. My issue is societal. ie, consent is very much placed as a gray area and lots of men (and women) actually have learned to get turned on by this idea of consent being a gray area because of how much society forces them to. This, of course, is merely a response to what the society projects to the citizens at hand. The more this gray area gets expanded, the more difficult it will be to actually stop, prevent, or curb actual perpetrators of rape.A woman does not have to be out cold drunk to be raped. Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. The reason alcohol gets put up a lot is because we don't have ruffie parties; but if society did these types of parties then these types of conversations will pop up for those as well. Alcohol was not invented until mankind invented it. It is merely a tool that is out there, one that has side effects both good and bad. Is it really so dangerous and weird to suggest that of the many tools we have, that we start talking about one of them with caution a tiny bit more? that is a chicken and the egg argument.
you present two choices, pick the one you think came first(the one that drives the change) then act accordingly.
i believe that some/most men and women want to be fucked in gray areas. the society doesn't make them want it, they just do.
like love, it's not a choice.
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It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it?
Why are those the only two options? More likely seems to be you go somewhere to drink. Other people are there for the same reason. Occasionally you meet people less drunk than you. Occasionally drunker.
I think a lot of people of both genders drink for the express reason of easing inhibitions.
Honestly I'm not entirely sure what this post is arguing, could you elaborate?
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On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape?
It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't.
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On November 24 2016 03:00 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:36 Velr wrote:
I actually had this situation in all variations, normally when i'm out to party i don't look for sex. It has happened, sometimes it was good, sometimes not so much and i also have refused it plenty of times.
I just find the notion that consent does't count, as you elaborated nicely, if the parties are drunk plain ridiculous.
I'm actually a really nice guy when it comes to this stuff, probably "nicer" than I should be. Wrongfully so, but I actually assume most people here on TL (even the ones I yell at a lot) are really good intelligent people. But that's because of my bias as a fellow TL poster. The issue is not with what you've done and how you feel about it (anecdotal evidence is not good enough for peer review for a reason) but on the philosophy at hand. My issue is societal. ie, consent is very much placed as a gray area and lots of men (and women) actually have learned to get turned on by this idea of consent being a gray area because of how much society forces them to. This, of course, is merely a response to what the society projects to the citizens at hand. The more this gray area gets expanded, the more difficult it will be to actually stop, prevent, or curb actual perpetrators of rape.A woman does not have to be out cold drunk to be raped. Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. The reason alcohol gets put up a lot is because we don't have ruffie parties; but if society did these types of parties then these types of conversations will pop up for those as well. Alcohol was not invented until mankind invented it. It is merely a tool that is out there, one that has side effects both good and bad. Is it really so dangerous and weird to suggest that of the many tools we have, that we start talking about one of them with caution a tiny bit more? that is a chicken and the egg argument. you present two choices, pick the one you think came first(the one that drives the change) then act accordingly. i believe that some/most men and women want to be fucked in gray areas. the society doesn't make them want it, they just do. like love, it's not a choice.
People don't fetish something until it is present and seen as real.
Cavemen did not fetish cars, because cars did not exist then.
The Middle Ages did not fetish airplane pilots, because airplanes did not exist then.
When society acknowledges something is there, only then do people fetish it. The West places great emphasis that consent is important but not required to fuck someone (ie, a gray zone) and because society acknowledges that to be true, people fetish it.
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On November 24 2016 03:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:00 xM(Z wrote:On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:36 Velr wrote:
I actually had this situation in all variations, normally when i'm out to party i don't look for sex. It has happened, sometimes it was good, sometimes not so much and i also have refused it plenty of times.
I just find the notion that consent does't count, as you elaborated nicely, if the parties are drunk plain ridiculous.
I'm actually a really nice guy when it comes to this stuff, probably "nicer" than I should be. Wrongfully so, but I actually assume most people here on TL (even the ones I yell at a lot) are really good intelligent people. But that's because of my bias as a fellow TL poster. The issue is not with what you've done and how you feel about it (anecdotal evidence is not good enough for peer review for a reason) but on the philosophy at hand. My issue is societal. ie, consent is very much placed as a gray area and lots of men (and women) actually have learned to get turned on by this idea of consent being a gray area because of how much society forces them to. This, of course, is merely a response to what the society projects to the citizens at hand. The more this gray area gets expanded, the more difficult it will be to actually stop, prevent, or curb actual perpetrators of rape.A woman does not have to be out cold drunk to be raped. Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. The reason alcohol gets put up a lot is because we don't have ruffie parties; but if society did these types of parties then these types of conversations will pop up for those as well. Alcohol was not invented until mankind invented it. It is merely a tool that is out there, one that has side effects both good and bad. Is it really so dangerous and weird to suggest that of the many tools we have, that we start talking about one of them with caution a tiny bit more? that is a chicken and the egg argument. you present two choices, pick the one you think came first(the one that drives the change) then act accordingly. i believe that some/most men and women want to be fucked in gray areas. the society doesn't make them want it, they just do. like love, it's not a choice. People don't fetish something until it is present and seen as real. Cavemen did not fetish cars, because cars did not exist then. The Middle Ages did not fetish airplane pilots, because airplanes did not exist then. When society acknowledges something is there, only then do people fetish it. The West places great emphasis that consent is important but not required to fuck someone (ie, a gray zone) and because society acknowledges that to be true, people fetish it.
Btw I really really don't think you should bring fetishes into this conversation.
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On November 24 2016 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk. So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there. Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex? Which lifestyle is it? Which one is it? Why are those the only two options? More likely seems to be you go somewhere to drink. Other people are there for the same reason. Occasionally you meet people less drunk than you. Occasionally drunker. I think a lot of people of both genders drink for the express reason of easing inhibitions. Honestly I'm not entirely sure what this post is arguing, could you elaborate?
Going to a bar where you know the men/women there are intoxicated and hence are of unsound mind means you went there knowing that the people you'd be sleeping with are of unsound mind. It seems normal to you to do that, because we live in a rape culture society where fucking people of unsound mind is considered normal, and to some people preferred.
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On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here.
I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 24 2016 02:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Right now western culture emphasizes that people should intentionally drug themselves before making these decisions, which is why its really hard to differentiate when its rape and when it isn't (hello, rape culture) and the people within those assumed truths cannot see it any other way (hello, rape culture) and hence they assume that this is the natural state of how people interact. (hello, rape culture)
I see you are unfamiliar with the history of Western civilization. Please brush up on the past and acquaint yourself with any of the innumerable variations of bacchanalia that served as license for irresponsible sex (primarily among the aristocracy).
It's a bit odd that all discussions of rape in this thread focus on drunkenness, as if alcohol is the only thing that lowers inhibition and clouds judgment. Any realistic attempt to tackle the conditions that produce 'rape culture' must also address the different ways in which men and women relate to the sexuality, and the personal and social connotations that come with it. Also we would need to discuss whether a 'culture of victimhood' exists, the level of responsibility women need to accept in avoiding/preventing/watching out for each other in situations where rape can occur (a pragmatic concern that can't be ignored for the sake of sanctimony), and whether different norms for women are justifiable if we continually stress the importance of 'equality' in the most nebulous sense imaginable.
On November 24 2016 02:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The issue is that we are currently pushing a fairly new lifestyle that emphasizes the de-emphasis of consent. Where the expectation is that you go to room of people who can't consent, and just walking away with one of them and hope for the best.
No. I wish I had a more elegant response to this, but this is simply a ridiculous assertion. Who is pushing this? And don't say the "patriarchy", the essential boogeyman for any argument that seeks to avoid precision and rigor in its logic.
On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Wrongfully so, but I actually assume most people here on TL (even the ones I yell at a lot) are really good intelligent people. But that's because of my bias as a fellow TL poster.
Ha! Anyone can sound reasonable and intelligent when they have all the time in the world to craft a post.
On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The issue is not with what you've done and how you feel about it (anecdotal evidence is not good enough for peer review for a reason) but on the philosophy at hand. My issue is societal. ie, consent is very much placed as a gray area and lots of men (and women) actually have learned to get turned on by this idea of consent being a gray area because of how much society forces them to. This, of course, is merely a response to what the society projects to the citizens at hand. The more this gray area gets expanded, the more difficult it will be to actually stop, prevent, or curb actual perpetrators of rape.
A woman does not have to be out cold drunk to be raped. Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. The reason alcohol gets put up a lot is because we don't have ruffie parties; but if society did these types of parties then these types of conversations will pop up for those as well. Alcohol was not invented until mankind invented it. It is merely a tool that is out there, one that has side effects both good and bad. Is it really so dangerous and weird to suggest that of the many tools we have, that we start talking about one of them with caution a tiny bit more?
One can hardly have an informed, sensible discussion when 'society' is treated as a monolithic entity and generalizations are posited as facts.
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On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't.
Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them.
I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust.
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On November 24 2016 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here. I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you.
Can you justify this? I honestly can not remember the last time I did something I wouldn't normally do when drunk. The key to your argument seems to be the complete dismantling of consent as soon as someone is drunk. I think you need to more thoroughly define what you are saying constitutes "drunk".
Do you drink? It feels like you have a very skewed understanding of what alcohol does to people.
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On November 24 2016 03:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:00 xM(Z wrote:On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:36 Velr wrote:
I actually had this situation in all variations, normally when i'm out to party i don't look for sex. It has happened, sometimes it was good, sometimes not so much and i also have refused it plenty of times.
I just find the notion that consent does't count, as you elaborated nicely, if the parties are drunk plain ridiculous.
I'm actually a really nice guy when it comes to this stuff, probably "nicer" than I should be. Wrongfully so, but I actually assume most people here on TL (even the ones I yell at a lot) are really good intelligent people. But that's because of my bias as a fellow TL poster. The issue is not with what you've done and how you feel about it (anecdotal evidence is not good enough for peer review for a reason) but on the philosophy at hand. My issue is societal. ie, consent is very much placed as a gray area and lots of men (and women) actually have learned to get turned on by this idea of consent being a gray area because of how much society forces them to. This, of course, is merely a response to what the society projects to the citizens at hand. The more this gray area gets expanded, the more difficult it will be to actually stop, prevent, or curb actual perpetrators of rape.A woman does not have to be out cold drunk to be raped. Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. The reason alcohol gets put up a lot is because we don't have ruffie parties; but if society did these types of parties then these types of conversations will pop up for those as well. Alcohol was not invented until mankind invented it. It is merely a tool that is out there, one that has side effects both good and bad. Is it really so dangerous and weird to suggest that of the many tools we have, that we start talking about one of them with caution a tiny bit more? that is a chicken and the egg argument. you present two choices, pick the one you think came first(the one that drives the change) then act accordingly. i believe that some/most men and women want to be fucked in gray areas. the society doesn't make them want it, they just do. like love, it's not a choice. People don't fetish something until it is present and seen as real. Cavemen did not fetish cars, because cars did not exist then. The Middle Ages did not fetish airplane pilots, because airplanes did not exist then. When society acknowledges something is there, only then do people fetish it. The West places great emphasis that consent is important but not required to fuck someone (ie, a gray zone) and because society acknowledges that to be true, people fetish it. i don't agree with you calling it a fetish. what is the object here?. you associated gray areas with objects?.
the gray area is not a setting but a feeling. at best, the setting helps with the expression of that feeling.
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On November 24 2016 03:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Right now western culture emphasizes that people should intentionally drug themselves before making these decisions, which is why its really hard to differentiate when its rape and when it isn't (hello, rape culture) and the people within those assumed truths cannot see it any other way (hello, rape culture) and hence they assume that this is the natural state of how people interact. (hello, rape culture) I see you are unfamiliar with the history of Western civilization. Please brush up on the past and acquaint yourself with any of the innumerable variations of bacchanalia that served as license for irresponsible sex (primarily among the aristocracy). It's a bit odd that all discussions of rape in this thread focus on drunkenness, as if alcohol is the only thing that lowers inhibition and clouds judgment. Any realistic attempt to tackle the conditions that produce 'rape culture' must also address the different ways in which men and women relate to the sexuality, and the personal and social connotations that come with it. Also we would need to discuss whether a 'culture of victimhood' exists, the level of responsibility women need to accept in avoiding/preventing/watching out for each other in situations where rape can occur (a pragmatic concern that can't be ignored for the sake of sanctimony), and whether different norms for women are justifiable if we continually stress the importance of 'equality' in the most nebulous sense imaginable. Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The issue is that we are currently pushing a fairly new lifestyle that emphasizes the de-emphasis of consent. Where the expectation is that you go to room of people who can't consent, and just walking away with one of them and hope for the best. No. I wish I had a more elegant response to this, but this is simply a ridiculous assertion. Who is pushing this? And don't say the "patriarchy", the essential boogeyman for any argument that seeks to avoid precision and rigor in its logic. Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Wrongfully so, but I actually assume most people here on TL (even the ones I yell at a lot) are really good intelligent people. But that's because of my bias as a fellow TL poster. Ha! Anyone can sound reasonable and intelligent when they have all the time in the world to craft a post. Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The issue is not with what you've done and how you feel about it (anecdotal evidence is not good enough for peer review for a reason) but on the philosophy at hand. My issue is societal. ie, consent is very much placed as a gray area and lots of men (and women) actually have learned to get turned on by this idea of consent being a gray area because of how much society forces them to. This, of course, is merely a response to what the society projects to the citizens at hand. The more this gray area gets expanded, the more difficult it will be to actually stop, prevent, or curb actual perpetrators of rape.
A woman does not have to be out cold drunk to be raped. Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. The reason alcohol gets put up a lot is because we don't have ruffie parties; but if society did these types of parties then these types of conversations will pop up for those as well. Alcohol was not invented until mankind invented it. It is merely a tool that is out there, one that has side effects both good and bad. Is it really so dangerous and weird to suggest that of the many tools we have, that we start talking about one of them with caution a tiny bit more? One can hardly have an informed, sensible discussion when 'society' is treated as a monolithic entity and generalizations are posited as facts.
Fine then.
Are you saying that when we were cavemen living in the darkness, the one thing women wanted to do was get drunk in nightclubs and bars? OR is it that we live in a society that has nightclubs and bars, and now women want to go to it?
Society is not a monolithic "thing" it is the world around us as it is.
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On November 24 2016 03:08 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:57 Kickstart wrote:On November 24 2016 02:54 Nebuchad wrote:On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them. So woman are helpless creatures and men need to be held to a higher standard of acting responsibly when out drinking in public? + Show Spoiler +Also, you should get some gay friends! + Show Spoiler +Not that all of them try to make a pass on their drunk straight buds + Show Spoiler +But if you are drunk and they are drunk maybe something could happen, would it be rape? It's not a higher standard. If women were out getting men drunk and then raping men a lot, we'd be speaking about that as well. It just so happens that it's not the case, and so we don't. Oh. So woman aren't helpless creatures. You are arguing that men are going out, getting women absurdly drunk with the woman being totally unaware, and then taking advantage of them. I see, you are arguing that woman are helpless AND that men have no control over their lust.
If you want to discuss me again, please post in good faith. If you really think this style of posting is going to get us somewhere, then you probably aren't responsible enough to drink.
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On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask?
What is your fixation with alcohol and other drugs?
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On November 24 2016 03:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 03:01 Velr wrote:
It gets inflated because people like you call stuff like drunken "mistakes" rape, hell, you said its rape even if both parties enjoyed it during and after.
It shifts the whole conversation and you alienate most people, just look at the wind blowing in your direction here. I said that sex without consent is rape. And I said being intoxicated leads to you doing things you would not consent to if you were of sound mind. If you believe that means rape that is up to you. Can you justify this? I honestly can not remember the last time I did something I wouldn't normally do when drunk. The key to your argument seems to be the complete dismantling of consent as soon as someone is drunk. I think you need to more thoroughly define what you are saying constitutes "drunk". Do you drink? It feels like you have a very skewed understanding of what alcohol does to people.
No, that was a conversation I had with Velr.
In that discussion, he said he has fucked people he regretted fucking before and then said that that doesn't count as rape. I then said to him majority of rape victims don't report their cases for the same reason. I then said to him that if your ability to make decisions should you have been in sound mind gets hampered, then it is possible you have been raped.
ie--the statement "you would not have done it if you weren't drunk" is as bad as saying "would not have done it if I didn't imbibe a ruffie"
Being of sound enough mind to consent is the whole point of my argument. And if you believe that being intoxicated enough that you make decisions you regret counts as being of sound mind, then I disagree with you.
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EPT
