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This conversation is (always) terrible.
- Drunk, when discussing this topic, means incapable of making a rational choice. There are cases where it's obvious: for example, when you are passed out drunk. There are cases where it's less obvious. And then there are cases where it's clearly not the case, for example the one that Acrofales brings up as if it was really important.
- In cases where it's less obvious, well... I would advise caution? Not because of the law or anything, but you know, decency? That doesn't seem a super hard thing to ask.
- Anyone who is talking about how he had an experience like this as a male and he didn't feel raped should really stop talking about this situation altogether. Or alternatively, think about how he would feel if he got drunk with a friend and then woke up to that friend fucking him even though they aren't together and he never indicated that he wanted to be.
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On November 24 2016 02:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
KwarK asked me to post this for him:
To respond to FrozenArbiter's hypothetical, two comparably drunk people wouldn't, in my book, be rape. But it would be a mistake that both should regret doing. If, in the morning, a girl says "fuck, I really regret this" then your response shouldn't be "doesn't matter, had sex". You should feel bad about that and try to avoid that in future because you should have a basic human responsibility to try and act ethically and try to avoid harming your sexual partners. Coming at this from a BDSM background gives me a different perspective than most but this is basically how I see it.
In BDSM both partners have a responsibility for ensuring the safety of both partners through consent. What that means is if you pre-negotiate a scene and one partner says "I'm not comfortable with X" then that means that even if mid scene they're really into it and say "totally do X to me" you still shouldn't do it. Because the responsibility to the partner isn't just "do the bare minimum acceptable to protect yourself from a rape accusation later". The responsibility is to act ethically and if you think you might be harming your partner then you're not absolved of that responsibility by what they say in the moment.
Both parties need to be satisfied by the validity of the consent given because you have an obligation to your partner as well as to yourself. If one party doesn't consent then obviously nothing happens, but if one party states that they do consent, that doesn't mean the other party is freed of all obligation. Mistakes can and do happen but if you are a good BSDM practitioner you should make it your active responsibility to try to minimize them to make sure that nobody has any regrets afterwards.
As you get deeper into the BDSM world consent gets more murky but because of that it also gets more important to be really responsible about it. But I don't see why it can't apply to drinking. If a girl is wasted and she says "fuck me now" then sure, you could record that and use it as a get out of jail free card for having sex with her, even if you knew that she wouldn't want to fuck you sober. But you shouldn't want to do that. You should hold yourself to a higher standard than that, just because she offers her consent does not mean you must accept her consent, you have a responsibility to try not to harm your partners and that includes exercising your judgement in accepting consent.
If a genuine fuckup happens, and I'm grouping two equally drunk people who both give drunken consent within that category, then I'm not going to go ahead and claim that it's rape. But I'm also not going to claim that it's a "good" outcome or that nothing bad happened. One party was engaged in sex that they would rather not have had, and that's a shitty outcome which neither of them should feel good about. There's the legal definition of rape, which has to be strict and clear cut and above question, and then there's failing to meet a basic level of ethical behaviour. Just because something doesn't meet the legal definition of rape doesn't mean it's okay, or that the other party wasn't a victim.
Also Kickstart/Velr insisting that obtaining the kind of consent that would satisfy my ethical standard is awkward and therefore they should just skip all of that and use their best judgement is really kind of ridiculous. If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent then you're not mature enough to be having sex yet. Grow the fuck up. And anyway, chicks fucking love consent. If you're on a college campus and you're the guy who is clearly not a rapist then you're not gonna struggle to get laid. A sober "no" becomes a sober "yes" if you're the guy who refused the drunk "yes" and said "call me in the morning".
I could just message Kwark elsewhere but I thought it would be more fun to yell at him here in public to serve out his ban and shush! (<3). I also don't think that something that is awkward is to be avoided, my problem is that the scenarios described are in no way realistic. Consent also means different things in different situations. Is the natural progression from drunken flirtation to sex consent? It would be hard to argue that it isn't, even though no contract was written out or "Yes, I would like to have sex with you" stated.
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On November 24 2016 02:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I almost feel like if we were to take this line of reasoning to its extreme then being horny would invalidate consent because it impairs judgement too...
Edit: I just realized this is the US politics thread. Maybe we should create a separate topic or something...
It only matters if charges pressed.
If Person A wakes up, regrets it, and walks away then ZERO impact happens and Person B might never know that Person A was hurt.
If Person A wakes up, regrets it, and reports it--that is when the discussion of "is it rape/isn't it rape" happens. That is when you need a paper trail, proof, and signs of consent.
Things are fairly simple if one was intoxicated, and the other wasn't.
Things get complex when both sides were intoxicated, in which case physical evidence is what is needed to show what the communication was between the two parties involved.
Right now western culture emphasizes that people should intentionally drug themselves before making these decisions, which is why its really hard to differentiate when its rape and when it isn't (hello, rape culture) and the people within those assumed truths cannot see it any other way (hello, rape culture) and hence they assume that this is the natural state of how people interact. (hello, rape culture)
The issue is that we are currently pushing a fairly new lifestyle that emphasizes the de-emphasis of consent. Where the expectation is that you go to room of people who can't consent, and just walking away with one of them and hope for the best.
Is it as bad as genital mutilation in some 3rd world countries? No.
Is it as bad as acid burnings in some 2nd world countries? No.
Of course its not as bad, of course there are worse things out there--but things don't have to reach genital mutilation for it to count as bad.
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I actually had this situation in all variations, normally when i'm out to party i don't look for sex. It has happened, sometimes it was good, sometimes not so much and i also have refused it plenty of times.
I just find the notion that consent does't count, as you elaborated nicely, if the parties are drunk plain ridiculous.
I'm actually a really nice guy when it comes to this stuff, probably "nicer" than I should be. Having sex and regretting it the next day feels bad, even if just your partner feels that way.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 24 2016 02:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
KwarK asked me to post this for him:
To respond to FrozenArbiter's hypothetical, two comparably drunk people wouldn't, in my book, be rape. But it would be a mistake that both should regret doing. If, in the morning, a girl says "fuck, I really regret this" then your response shouldn't be "doesn't matter, had sex". You should feel bad about that and try to avoid that in future because you should have a basic human responsibility to try and act ethically and try to avoid harming your sexual partners. Coming at this from a BDSM background gives me a different perspective than most but this is basically how I see it.
In BDSM both partners have a responsibility for ensuring the safety of both partners through consent. What that means is if you pre-negotiate a scene and one partner says "I'm not comfortable with X" then that means that even if mid scene they're really into it and say "totally do X to me" you still shouldn't do it. Because the responsibility to the partner isn't just "do the bare minimum acceptable to protect yourself from a rape accusation later". The responsibility is to act ethically and if you think you might be harming your partner then you're not absolved of that responsibility by what they say in the moment.
Both parties need to be satisfied by the validity of the consent given because you have an obligation to your partner as well as to yourself. If one party doesn't consent then obviously nothing happens, but if one party states that they do consent, that doesn't mean the other party is freed of all obligation. Mistakes can and do happen but if you are a good BSDM practitioner you should make it your active responsibility to try to minimize them to make sure that nobody has any regrets afterwards.
As you get deeper into the BDSM world consent gets more murky but because of that it also gets more important to be really responsible about it. But I don't see why it can't apply to drinking. If a girl is wasted and she says "fuck me now" then sure, you could record that and use it as a get out of jail free card for having sex with her, even if you knew that she wouldn't want to fuck you sober. But you shouldn't want to do that. You should hold yourself to a higher standard than that, just because she offers her consent does not mean you must accept her consent, you have a responsibility to try not to harm your partners and that includes exercising your judgement in accepting consent.
If a genuine fuckup happens, and I'm grouping two equally drunk people who both give drunken consent within that category, then I'm not going to go ahead and claim that it's rape. But I'm also not going to claim that it's a "good" outcome or that nothing bad happened. One party was engaged in sex that they would rather not have had, and that's a shitty outcome which neither of them should feel good about. There's the legal definition of rape, which has to be strict and clear cut and above question, and then there's failing to meet a basic level of ethical behaviour. Just because something doesn't meet the legal definition of rape doesn't mean it's okay, or that the other party wasn't a victim.
Also Kickstart/Velr insisting that obtaining the kind of consent that would satisfy my ethical standard is awkward and therefore they should just skip all of that and use their best judgement is really kind of ridiculous. If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent then you're not mature enough to be having sex yet. Grow the fuck up. And anyway, chicks fucking love consent. If you're on a college campus and you're the guy who is clearly not a rapist then you're not gonna struggle to get laid. A sober "no" becomes a sober "yes" if you're the guy who refused the drunk "yes" and said "call me in the morning".
I basically agree with almost all of this. It is quite a bit more nuanced than what you wrote previously.
It is obviously a regrettable outcome if either party feels bad about it in the morning, but it isn't rape without one party having ill intent or being completely out of it etc.
Edit: oh that was Kwark not you. Well, all the same, this is a position I agree with more.
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Wondering whether I should report that for KwarK subverting a ban bet. It's no fun if other people proxy post for him.
That said, I largely agree with what he said. There is a difference between being a rapist and being a shitty human being. And if you have sex with someone and that person says they regret that, then that should make you feel bad. And if you know beforehand that they're going to regret it and you do it anyway, then that makes you a shitty human being, even if they do say they want you to do it at the time.
That said, I don't think the latter case happens all that often. And in addition, I don't think any kind of laws or additional rules are needed to protect anybody from having drunk sex. Because while it is all of our responsibility to act as ethical human beings, it is ultimately our own responsibility to look out for number 1. And if you don't want to run the risk of consenting to having sex when drunk, don't get drunk. The same as in Kwark's BDSM scenario: if you don't want to do X, then stay away from situations where X might happen. The partner clearly shouldn't do X when looking at it analytically from behind a computer screen, but if the partner is also really into it and you're screaming "oh yes, do X to me" then he/she might just get really excited and do X. You might both regret it later, but you willingly put yourselves in that situation.
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"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
Also as pointed out by Acro, me and Velr were arguing against a position not nearly as rational and nuanced as your essay on the topic is Kwark.
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On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
Which btw, is probably the textbook case for the existence of a rape culture, so I hope that's what you're trying to say
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On November 24 2016 02:36 Velr wrote:
I actually had this situation in all variations, normally when i'm out to party i don't look for sex. It has happened, sometimes it was good, sometimes not so much and i also have refused it plenty of times.
I just find the notion that consent does't count, as you elaborated nicely, if the parties are drunk plain ridiculous.
I'm actually a really nice guy when it comes to this stuff, probably "nicer" than I should be.
Wrongfully so, but I actually assume most people here on TL (even the ones I yell at a lot) are really good intelligent people. But that's because of my bias as a fellow TL poster.
The issue is not with what you've done and how you feel about it (anecdotal evidence is not good enough for peer review for a reason) but on the philosophy at hand. My issue is societal. ie, consent is very much placed as a gray area and lots of men (and women) actually have learned to get turned on by this idea of consent being a gray area because of how much society forces them to. This, of course, is merely a response to what the society projects to the citizens at hand. The more this gray area gets expanded, the more difficult it will be to actually stop, prevent, or curb actual perpetrators of rape.
A woman does not have to be out cold drunk to be raped. Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. The reason alcohol gets put up a lot is because we don't have ruffie parties; but if society did these types of parties then these types of conversations will pop up for those as well. Alcohol was not invented until mankind invented it. It is merely a tool that is out there, one that has side effects both good and bad. Is it really so dangerous and weird to suggest that of the many tools we have, that we start talking about one of them with caution a tiny bit more?
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On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them.
On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety.
This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine.
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On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them.
Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them.
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On November 24 2016 02:43 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up." Which btw, is probably the textbook case for the existence of a rape culture, so I hope that's what you're trying to say
Perhaps it is, but I don't personally ever drink to the point of being drunk, I get a mild buzz going and quit. It seems I am more responsible than most.
The case of two people being drunk, having sex, and one regretting it afterwards, could be avoided by either person. If the more assertive of the two weren't drunk to the point where their inhibitions were down or if the other party weren't drunk to the point that they were not capable of giving consent. The problem is that TM has been arguing that one of those two people is a rapist and the other a rape victim, not that both were acting irresponsibly.
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On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them.
Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation?
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On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine.
Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask?
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On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask?
If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk.
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On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation?
Being that you brought up women while I was only using Person A and Person B in my examples, the real question is why did you bring it up?
My first example to Jinro was literally of a woman taking advantage of a man without his consent.
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On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation?
Because when I get drunk as fuck with my friends as a male, there is no point at which I have to wonder whether I'll end up being fucked by one of them.
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On November 24 2016 02:52 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:50 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. Thinking that talking to women when they are of sound mind instead of after they've drugged themselves seems the opposite of infantilizing them. Why is there such an emphasis on women for you? What do you see that separates women from men in this situation? Being that you brought up women while I was only using Person A and Person B in my examples, the real question is why did you bring it up? My first example to Jinro was literally of a woman taking advantage of a man without his consent.
I didn't read the past few pages because that sounds miserable. I jumped in at this point and saw you use a woman as an example.
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On November 24 2016 02:52 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 24 2016 02:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 24 2016 02:41 Kickstart wrote:
"If you're too socially awkward to obtain consent irresponsible that you can't drink in public without getting drunk to the point that you make decisions you regret the morning after then you're not mature enough to be having sex or drinking yet. Grow the fuck up."
This is my thought. The entire idea of treating women like some sub-human child incapable of making their own decisions is pretty insane. Women are not that useless. They aren't that stupid. It is so sad to see women lowered to such an insane degree by people who seem to actually be looking out for them. On November 24 2016 02:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: Women (and men) get raped in all levels of sobriety. This is just an argument of definition. This is the problem here. You have a wild definition of rape that no one else here agrees with. We are all fundamentally arguing entirely different things. The meaning you attach to the word "rape" looks nothing like mine. Lets make it simple then: Do you get consent from people when they are of sound mind or do you wait until they've been drugged by either pharmaceuticals or alcohol before you ask? If I go out drinking, and they also go out drinking, and we happen to meet when we are both drunk, and we both decide to have sex, is that rape? That's the situation I am describing and it is very different from "waiting" until someone is drunk. It's not waiting for someone to be drunk, it is just people happening to be drunk.
So you go to a place where you know people are drunk, then you take a drunk girl from there afterwards assuming she'd be drunk before you even get there.
Or do you go to the place, wait for girls to get there, start drinking at the same time as those girls start drinking, and then ask those girls to have sex?
Which lifestyle is it?
Which one is it?
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Even animals get drunk from fruits and they actually do it on purpose.
I mainly think its bad to fight "rape culture" this way because it hugely dimishes "real" rape.
Same with sexual harassment, the meaning of these words just gets more and more inflated and i think this makes them weaker/dimishes the gravitas of the actual cases and how it makes our societies feel about the victims.
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