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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23932 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 19:44:57
June 14 2016 19:33 GMT
#80941
On June 15 2016 03:49 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 03:43 On_Slaught wrote:
Pistol rounds aren't as devestating as rifle rounds and he would have to reload the pistol more often, leaving him vulnerable more times.


Nah he wouldn't have to reload more often, you just take multiple pistols with you. On top, you can get extended mags.

You're right with the damage though - a rifle is certainly deadlier. Everyone trying to argue that it isn't, is a deliberate liar. Especially in packed crowds where a single round can and will easily hit and penetrate multiple people, whereas a pistol won't.


Simply being a "pistol" doesn't make it less deadly. There are other aspects one has to consider. See video for an example of a pistol that easily could have done more damage, though not as a result of rounds passing through victims.

+ Show Spoiler +


or if one thinks shotguns by nature are less dangerous than something like a AR 15

+ Show Spoiler +


You may understand the nuance (I don't know) but some people just think pistols and shotguns are less dangerous than AR-15's because they believe the hype without having any context beyond battlefield or movies.


In non gun related news though...

Goldman Sachs Finally Admits it Defrauded Investors During the Financial Crisis

From 2005 to 2007, Goldman issued and underwrote many mortgages and securities that had been backed by residential loans borrowed by consumers with shoddy credit ratings. That helped tip the economy into recession after the housing bubble burst in 2007, leading to a tsunami of foreclosures and delinquencies. That caused billions of dollars in losses for investors. The settlement mentioned mortgage loans that had been originated by Countrywide, Fremont, and others. Countrywide was bought by Bank of America is early 2008. Fremont is no longer in business.

Goldman agreed to pay $2.39 billion in civil penalties, and another $1.8 billion in relief in the form of loan forgiveness and financing for affordable housing. An additional $875 million will be paid in cash to resolve claims from other federal and state entities.

“This resolution holds Goldman Sachs accountable for its serious misconduct in falsely assuring investors that securities it sold were backed by sound mortgages, when it knew that they were full of mortgages that were likely to fail,” said Acting Associate Attorney General Stuart F. Delery in a statement.

As part of the settlement, New York-based Goldman agreed to a list of facts put together by the DoJ that stated Goldman had misled investors about the mortgage-backed securities while knowing that the repackaged loans were indeed riskier than what they had told investors.

Goldman also agreed to say the bank had failed do to its due diligence. In one case, the bank’s due diligence noticed an “unusually high” percentage of loans with credit and compliance of defects. When asked by Goldman’s Mortgage Capital Committee: “How do we know we caught everything?” A transaction manager responded “because of the limited sampling … we don’t catch anything.” No further due diligence was undertaken.


Source

Settlement was weak monetarily (and criminally of course) but they did at least get them to admit they did the opposite of their job to make money.

Astoundingly (not really) everyone got confirmation that a financial institution defrauded it's clients, yet it's stock barely moves. Why on earth would GS still be able to exist when it told it's clients and the world "yeah we told you those were safe investments when we knew they weren't and also told you other lies to profit off of your pain, but you should totally keep investing with us because...."
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 14 2016 19:48 GMT
#80942
it's priced in already, years ago.

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23932 Posts
June 14 2016 19:52 GMT
#80943
On June 15 2016 04:48 oneofthem wrote:
it's priced in already, years ago.



How do you price in the idea that they can't be trusted to tell you the truth about what they are selling you?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 14 2016 19:53 GMT
#80944
That is like a couple non-profitable quarters for them. Nothing of substance. It really bothers me that there are no criminal charges being filed for any of these. But the party of the FBI that investigates and brings cases against Wall Street Firms lost most of its funding when everything shifted to fighting terrorism. And there has never been political will in congress to restore that funding and get agents to dig into this stuff.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
June 14 2016 19:59 GMT
#80945
On June 15 2016 04:53 Plansix wrote:
That is like a couple non-profitable quarters for them. Nothing of substance. It really bothers me that there are no criminal charges being filed for any of these. But the party of the FBI that investigates and brings cases against Wall Street Firms lost most of its funding when everything shifted to fighting terrorism. And there has never been political will in congress to restore that funding and get agents to dig into this stuff.


what do you think locking up some wall streeters will effectively accomplish? lock one up and another will appear in his place. how is society better off if a wall streeter spends a decade in a jail somewhere? how is anyone better off?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22345 Posts
June 14 2016 20:02 GMT
#80946
On June 15 2016 04:59 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 04:53 Plansix wrote:
That is like a couple non-profitable quarters for them. Nothing of substance. It really bothers me that there are no criminal charges being filed for any of these. But the party of the FBI that investigates and brings cases against Wall Street Firms lost most of its funding when everything shifted to fighting terrorism. And there has never been political will in congress to restore that funding and get agents to dig into this stuff.


what do you think locking up some wall streeters will effectively accomplish? lock one up and another will appear in his place. how is society better off if a wall streeter spends a decade in a jail somewhere? how is anyone better off?

Because people act differently when they do something wrong, get caught and the company is fine but 0 personal liability or if they have to go to jail over it.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 20:09:29
June 14 2016 20:07 GMT
#80947
On June 15 2016 04:59 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 04:53 Plansix wrote:
That is like a couple non-profitable quarters for them. Nothing of substance. It really bothers me that there are no criminal charges being filed for any of these. But the party of the FBI that investigates and brings cases against Wall Street Firms lost most of its funding when everything shifted to fighting terrorism. And there has never been political will in congress to restore that funding and get agents to dig into this stuff.


what do you think locking up some wall streeters will effectively accomplish? lock one up and another will appear in his place. how is society better off if a wall streeter spends a decade in a jail somewhere? how is anyone better off?

Well in the 80s we did it for insider trading and it discouraged them from doing it. As long as the people doing this believe that the only thing that can happen is a couple back quarters and some fines. They will continue to take the risks and bring the system close to failure in whatever way they can, knowing the government will bail them out.

I want that bail out to come with jail time and personal responsibility for their actions. I’ve worked these companies cleaning up their legal non-sense, I know exactly how dumb they can be. The fact that there is literally zero risk of jail time is part of the reason they give zero fucks and will never care. This last set of fines is nothing. They will ride it out and be idiots in 2-5 years with something else, all banking on the government to bail them out.

Personal responsibility is important when people have this much power over other people’s money.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9641 Posts
June 14 2016 20:11 GMT
#80948
On June 15 2016 04:59 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 04:53 Plansix wrote:
That is like a couple non-profitable quarters for them. Nothing of substance. It really bothers me that there are no criminal charges being filed for any of these. But the party of the FBI that investigates and brings cases against Wall Street Firms lost most of its funding when everything shifted to fighting terrorism. And there has never been political will in congress to restore that funding and get agents to dig into this stuff.


what do you think locking up some wall streeters will effectively accomplish? lock one up and another will appear in his place. how is society better off if a wall streeter spends a decade in a jail somewhere? how is anyone better off?

lol what? because it acts as deterrence. just like all sentences.

'what do you think locking up one murderer will do? there will always be more.'

well because maybe the idea of being punished for a crime will stop a person from committing one.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
June 14 2016 20:19 GMT
#80949
It's also worth pointing out that jail time is the ultimate end for these guys. If you make $50K and get fined $25K, you made a good investment. That fraud was a good decision. Keep going.

But if you are in jail, that is straight up failure. These people don't even cook their own food. I imagine jail is some sort of sick twisted hell to them.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 20:24:42
June 14 2016 20:24 GMT
#80950
what happened was mostly two sort of bad activities. first there is the imbalance of information in a transaction creating adverse selection, second there is moral hazard of making bad loans, creating bad securities knowing there will be a bail out, or the turnaround is fast enough that the risk can be moved out.

neither is enough for jail time but taken as a system there is catastrophic failure.

individual accountability is important, but new legal principles probably needed to address this sort of collective action problem.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 14 2016 20:29 GMT
#80951
If accountability at a bank so diffused that no one person can be held accountable for the bad actions, that would be one thing. But if accountability is systematically diffused to avoid responsibility across all instructions, it is by design with the intent to avoid criminal liability. If the current laws cannot support criminal cases, then they must be changed to prevent banks from spreading the responsibility so thin.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22345 Posts
June 14 2016 20:32 GMT
#80952
On June 15 2016 05:29 Plansix wrote:
If accountability at a bank so diffused that no one person can be held accountable for the bad actions, that would be one thing. But if accountability is systematically diffused to avoid responsibility across all instructions, it is by design with the intent to avoid criminal liability. If the current laws cannot support criminal cases, then they must be changed to prevent banks from spreading the responsibility so thin.

It should not be possible for such large scale company wide actions to happen without the board of directors knowing, therefor they should beheld criminally liable and yes this seems to not be possible at the moment, so much we should look at changing some rules around.



It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
June 14 2016 20:41 GMT
#80953
On June 15 2016 04:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 03:49 m4ini wrote:
On June 15 2016 03:43 On_Slaught wrote:
Pistol rounds aren't as devestating as rifle rounds and he would have to reload the pistol more often, leaving him vulnerable more times.


Nah he wouldn't have to reload more often, you just take multiple pistols with you. On top, you can get extended mags.

You're right with the damage though - a rifle is certainly deadlier. Everyone trying to argue that it isn't, is a deliberate liar. Especially in packed crowds where a single round can and will easily hit and penetrate multiple people, whereas a pistol won't.


Simply being a "pistol" doesn't make it less deadly. There are other aspects one has to consider. See video for an example of a pistol that easily could have done more damage, though not as a result of rounds passing through victims.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://youtu.be/8HPcAvIbNsk?t=31s


or if one thinks shotguns by nature are less dangerous than something like a AR 15

+ Show Spoiler +
https://youtu.be/jJHBfRXWpmM?t=7s


You may understand the nuance (I don't know) but some people just think pistols and shotguns are less dangerous than AR-15's because they believe the hype without having any context beyond battlefield or movies.



Did you just show videos of fully automatic weapons as an argument as to why pistols and shotguns are not less deadly than an assault rifle, because it's semi-automatic? Why not add a minigun, a 50cal machine gun and a 120mm smoothbore to that comparison?

Would make as much sense.
On track to MA1950A.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
June 14 2016 20:41 GMT
#80954
On June 15 2016 05:24 oneofthem wrote:
neither is enough for jail time but taken as a system there is catastrophic failure.


I would argue a punishment should be such that it lowers the % chance that someone would decide to do the bad thing. It doesn't make sense for us say "But that's not fair!" if we have no other options. It needs to stop. If people are consciously doing things that cause financial crises, they need to be punished in a way that they don't do it again.
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 20:49:40
June 14 2016 20:49 GMT
#80955
One of my co-workers says that an ar15 isn't really an assault rifle and it gets annoyed everytime someone calls it that. He is into guns but I dont know if he is a valid source of information. He is of the cynical natured, so he could just be an elitist. Thoughts gun gurus?
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 20:55:53
June 14 2016 20:51 GMT
#80956
On June 15 2016 05:41 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 04:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
On June 15 2016 03:49 m4ini wrote:
On June 15 2016 03:43 On_Slaught wrote:
Pistol rounds aren't as devestating as rifle rounds and he would have to reload the pistol more often, leaving him vulnerable more times.


Nah he wouldn't have to reload more often, you just take multiple pistols with you. On top, you can get extended mags.

You're right with the damage though - a rifle is certainly deadlier. Everyone trying to argue that it isn't, is a deliberate liar. Especially in packed crowds where a single round can and will easily hit and penetrate multiple people, whereas a pistol won't.


Simply being a "pistol" doesn't make it less deadly. There are other aspects one has to consider. See video for an example of a pistol that easily could have done more damage, though not as a result of rounds passing through victims.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://youtu.be/8HPcAvIbNsk?t=31s


or if one thinks shotguns by nature are less dangerous than something like a AR 15

+ Show Spoiler +
https://youtu.be/jJHBfRXWpmM?t=7s


You may understand the nuance (I don't know) but some people just think pistols and shotguns are less dangerous than AR-15's because they believe the hype without having any context beyond battlefield or movies.



Did you just show videos of fully automatic weapons as an argument as to why pistols and shotguns are not less deadly than an assault rifle, because it's semi-automatic? Why not add a minigun, a 50cal machine gun and a 120mm smoothbore to that comparison?

Would make as much sense.


I just looked it up. Ar15s are not assault rifles. Machine guns would fall under the assault rifle category or weapons that can switch between semi auto and full auto such as the m16 or m4
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 14 2016 21:05 GMT
#80957
The AR-15 is an assault rifle like fire arm that is as close to an assault rifle as the gun can get without being classified as one. Its semantics because the people who design guns build them to avoid being classified as assault rifles.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
June 14 2016 21:08 GMT
#80958
On June 15 2016 05:49 SolaR- wrote:
One of my co-workers says that an ar15 isn't really an assault rifle and it gets annoyed everytime someone calls it that. He is into guns but I dont know if he is a valid source of information. He is of the cynical natured, so he could just be an elitist. Thoughts gun gurus?


In hopes of keeping this thread alive, I think it is worth pointing out that we were encouraged to use the gun thread for any gun related discussion.
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
June 14 2016 21:10 GMT
#80959
On June 15 2016 06:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 05:49 SolaR- wrote:
One of my co-workers says that an ar15 isn't really an assault rifle and it gets annoyed everytime someone calls it that. He is into guns but I dont know if he is a valid source of information. He is of the cynical natured, so he could just be an elitist. Thoughts gun gurus?


In hopes of keeping this thread alive, I think it is worth pointing out that we were encouraged to use the gun thread for any gun related discussion.


Sorry, i was referring to m4ini and green horizons posts.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
June 14 2016 21:57 GMT
#80960
On June 15 2016 06:05 Plansix wrote:
The AR-15 is an assault rifle like fire arm that is as close to an assault rifle as the gun can get without being classified as one. Its semantics because the people who design guns build them to avoid being classified as assault rifles.

That is because "assault rifle" is a made up term.

No army in the world would use the guns used in the nightclub, or a commercially available AR-15 to "assault" a fortified location. Some of the things that were part of the Assault Weapons Bill of 1994 are good features to have on your military weapon, such as a pistol grip (in many situations better), a flash suppressor (prevents counterfire), a barrel shroud (burns and alternative grip), and collapsible stock (easier to transport). But those are just good features for guns because they make the gun easier to use, and, quite frankly, better in 9/10 uses.

Armies would trade all those features for selective fire in a heartbeat, then laugh at your dangerous looking "assault rifles".
Freeeeeeedom
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