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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On June 14 2016 23:18 oneofthem wrote:
this idea that you can still build europe back up after it is destroyed is basically european version of bernieorbust
Its been done before so why not.
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On June 14 2016 23:25 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 22:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:If your debt is related to a worthwhile investment, then it might be that you have done a wise choice despite the debt interest you have to pay (because the result of your investment means you are better off despite the loss from the interests). In a time of crisis, trying to reduce your debt by cutting public spending is suicidal. That's what Europe is doing now, and it doesn't work. At all. Of course spending trillions in two wars that brought nothing but chaos was not a good idea. Maybe cutting massively taxes for rich people because of some hypothetical growth that never happened coming out of it wasn't either (that's what I call vodoo economics). As for Japan, it's 15% unless you decide to trust Sovereign Man more than Bloomberg. Your choice. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-09-24/japan-s-debt-trap Somewhat hard to apply capitalist theory when the president spent trillions bailing out banks and carmakers.He chooses what fails and what survives? Not right. Europe is a total mess with the negative interest rates and totally unsustainable welfare system.It's beyond help now.The bankrupt nation states need to ditch the euro and go back to their own currencies.Created by the nations treasury not a reserve bank.There is no real long term solution involving the Euro currency.
Europe is in a mess because our strategy makes no sense at all, period. Austerity in time of crisis simply doesn't work.
As for welfare state being the root of all evils, well, what about the fact that multinational corporations pay basically 0 taxes or that taxation on highest income is incredibly low compared to what it used to be? Of course it's easier to bash social programs. I don't think the poor are doing so well in Europe that it's urgent to make their life much worse.
As for the US bailing banks, last time it didn't in a time of crisis and let survive what's healthy and die what's not was in 1929. That worked wooooonderfully well.
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On June 14 2016 23:58 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 23:18 oneofthem wrote:
this idea that you can still build europe back up after it is destroyed is basically european version of bernieorbust Its been done before so why not.
When if I may ask?
Jumping into a huge crisis hoping it will get better after that has never been a great way to deal with stuff.
Europe doesn't work let's fix Europe. The nation state is not the adequate tool anymore considering the weight of big corporations. Ironically the ones that have blocked the most the harmonious development of Europe towards a federal system are the Brits.
But that belongs to another thread.
On June 14 2016 23:09 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 14 2016 20:57 RvB wrote:On June 14 2016 20:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 14 2016 18:45 Surth wrote: But it still tells you a lot about both Donald the Doofus and his chosen party. People have to stop equating Trump with Republicans whenever they see fit. How is it that we simultaneously have discussions about how Trump is barely accepted by most of the big players in the GOP, and at the same time have cheap potshots like "Trump is like, soooo typical republican." Also, in general, Krugman can shut the hell up. Well on that subject (the economy), Trump is just another Republican who believes in vodoo economics. On that level he is not that different from his colleagues. In fact his "clowns" as K puts it, and in particular, that Moore guy and Heritage Foundation, have been the economics "wonks" of the GOP for years. Since you like Krugman so much, I let him explain it himself: Trump didn't put the con in conservatism
So, I’m in a time zone far, far away — and also still shaky, although I’m finally managing to hold down some food. Output will still be low, but I wanted to note something about the reactions to the John Harwood interview with Paul Ryan, which are very relevant to understanding the Republican mess.
Liberals have been jumping, rightly, on Ryan’s extraordinary dismissal of any attempt to look at the distribution of tax cuts as “ridiculous.” But conservative writers — even those who are relatively moderate, or at least try to seem that way — clearly still view Ryan as an almost saintly figure: serious, intellectually honest, and compassionate toward the poor.
He isn’t, of course. His various budgets all have the same basic outline: huge tax cuts for the rich combined with savage cuts in benefits for the poor, with the net effect being to increase, not reduce the budget deficit. But he pretends that they’re deficit-reduction proposals by claiming that he will raise trillions in revenue by closing unspecified loopholes and achieve trillions more in unspecified savings. In other words, Ryan has been playing a con game in which he uses magic asterisks to mask a reverse Robin Hood agenda — take from the poor, give to the rich — as deficit hawkery.
This isn’t hard to see, and it has been pointed out many times. Back in 2011, at the height of media Ryanolatry, the truth even became slightly mainstream, as reporters started to point out the absurdities of his assumptions.
But moderate Republican pundits can’t, won’t see the obvious. For them it’s all about affect — how he comes across — which is also why they saw tax-slashing, war-starting Marco Rubio as somehow a break from the failures of the Bush years.
So when these commentators lament the blindness of primary voters, their willingness to be taken in by an obvious con, they might want to take a look in the mirror. Is it really the con that bothers them, or just the vulgarity? sourceI get you don't like Krugman, but why should he "shut the fuck up"? He at least is a serious economist who knows damn damn well what he is talking about. If he was a serious economist he'd actually use facts and analysis to make his point. His blogs are a joke since it contains hardly any substance. He is Nobel prize in economy and his blog has plenty of substance, figures and graphs. Just read it because you criticism is plainly unfounded. He addresses a public of non-economists and doesn't do a whole lot of maths in his posts, although all those written (wonkish) need substantial understanding of economic mechanism to be understood. On June 14 2016 21:21 Surth wrote:On June 14 2016 20:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I get you don't like Krugman, but why should he "shut the fuck up"? He at least is a serious economist who knows damn damn well what he is talking about. He should shut the hell up. I don't condone the use of the word "fuck"! :D For one thing, he's a serious economist. I find serious economists suspect. They generally lack any knowledge of history. How many economists do you know that produce studies which actually deal on the scale of centuries? Little wonder that Moritz Schularick's and Alan Taylor mined their one dataset for so long. Their position on politics generally collapses into a (myopic) position on economics. Krugman's position on the brexit is "it would be bad for the economy", nevermind that the EU continues to be a fundamentally undemocratic institution that needs to be destroyed and built up again from the ground up. Same I don't think you have read his blog, because Krugman is constantly making historical analysis. And if you find serious economists suspects, who do you trust on economics? How is this anti-intellectual posture helpful? You should find non serious economists, such as Moore, suspect. And Krugman position on Brexit is very nuanced because he is a ferocious critics of the Eu as it is. He has debunked catastrophist claims again and again, even though he doesn't think Brexit would be a good idea at all. The "stay" is just a lesser of two evils in his eyes. For example: I guess it’s time to weigh in on an issue I have mostly been avoiding: Britain’s vote on whether to leave the EU, aka Brexit.
Not to keep you in suspense: if I had a vote, I’d vote “remain.” But I wouldn’t be as enthusiastic as I’d like – and if “remain” wins, as I hope it does, I’ll still feel a sense of dread about what the future holds. sourceand his analysis of the impact of the Brexit on British economy looks like that : Here it goes: before it joined the EU, Britain did only about a third of its trade with Europe. Now it’s about half, and it’s unlikely that much of that represents trade diversion. So unless Britain can negotiate something that looks like Norway’s deal – which would basically mean accepting EU policies in which it would no longer have a voice – we might expect Brexit to reduce the share of trade in British GDP from about 30 percent to about 25 percent.
What’s that worth? I’ve previously used the elegant Eaton-Kortum trade analysis as a benchmark for assessing globalization; it tells us that real income, for given technology, is (1-trade share)^(-1/theta), where theta is a parameter reflecting how much comparative advantage there is in the world (don’t ask). Eaton-Kortum suggest theta=4 fits best. In that case, Brexit would reduce British real income by 1.7 percent. Call it 2 percent, with the understanding that there are big error margins around all of this. sourceReally unsubstantial and clearly biased on Brexit. Or not. His brexit blog is alright and the fed one had some substance but for every one that has some substance a lot of it has little. He has a nobel prize on international trade that doesn't make him an expert on everything economics.
I read his blog regularly and an enormous amount of what he posts is insightful and substantial.
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I hear the Great Depression was really bad. I’ll take the bank bailout.
And pure, unchecked capitalism is not something a nation strives for. Stopping the worst from happening is what Governments are designed to do and we can debate the effectiveness after the fact.
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Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source
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On June 15 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +
Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source
There is no difference between doing this and breaking into a building and taking pictures of cabinets full of documents. This should be responded to with sanctions. I am really sick of shit not being taken seriously because someone used a computer to do it.
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A federal appeals court on Tuesday fully upheld the so-called Open Internet rules, regulations backing the principle of net neutrality.
It's the idea that phone and cable companies should treat all of the traffic on their networks equally — no blocking or slowing their competitors, and no fast lanes for companies that can pay more.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit rejected the petition filed by telecom, cable and wireless industry associations alongside AT&T, CenturyLink and several smaller providers. President Obama and various Internet and venture companies and public interest groups backed the Federal Communications Commission.
This was the third time in less than a decade that the court has tackled the FCC's attempts at regulating Internet service providers.
Source
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 15 2016 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source There is no difference between doing this and breaking into a building and taking pictures of cabinets full of documents. This should be responded to with sanctions. I am really sick of shit not being taken seriously because someone used a computer to do it.
Do we suddenly live in a world where espionage between two not-so-friendly nations doesn't happen?
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On June 15 2016 00:16 Plansix wrote:
I hear the Great Depression was really bad. I’ll take the bank bailout.
And pure, unchecked capitalism is not something a nation strives for. Stopping the worst from happening is what Governments are designed to do and we can debate the effectiveness after the fact.
There are very few people who advocate laissez-faire. Even a self admitted radical like Friedman did not.
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On June 15 2016 01:12 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source There is no difference between doing this and breaking into a building and taking pictures of cabinets full of documents. This should be responded to with sanctions. I am really sick of shit not being taken seriously because someone used a computer to do it. Do we suddenly live in a world where espionage between two not-so-friendly nations doesn't happen?
So we should just take the perspective that everyone is fucking everyone, so let's just let it slide? What incentive do we have to not use evidence of foul play to leverage our allies to weaken an enemy? We should be using this as much as we can.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 15 2016 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On June 15 2016 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source There is no difference between doing this and breaking into a building and taking pictures of cabinets full of documents. This should be responded to with sanctions. I am really sick of shit not being taken seriously because someone used a computer to do it. Do we suddenly live in a world where espionage between two not-so-friendly nations doesn't happen? So we should just take the perspective that everyone is fucking everyone, so let's just let it slide? What incentive do we have to not use evidence of foul play to leverage our allies to weaken an enemy? We should be using this as much as we can.
Maybe Germany should have put sanctions on the US for the wiretapping Merkel as was discussed a year or two ago?
The fact that you refer to Russia as an enemy, rather than just another nation with its own geopolitical interests (like, you know, every other country in the world) probably means that your perspective on this is blinded by knee-jerk emotional reactions. If we all had these knee-jerk disproportional reactions to every unhappy event that affects the US then the world would be a much shittier place. Thankfully our diplomats are a bit more level-headed than that.
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On June 15 2016 01:20 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 00:16 Plansix wrote:
I hear the Great Depression was really bad. I’ll take the bank bailout.
And pure, unchecked capitalism is not something a nation strives for. Stopping the worst from happening is what Governments are designed to do and we can debate the effectiveness after the fact.
There are very few people who advocate laissez-faire. Even a self admitted radical like Friedman did not.
I was responding to the comment that the President deciding who fails and who doesn’t, as if there is anything fair about the process of saving the country from finical crisis. Once the government becomes involved at that level, capitalism is about to stop functioning in a manner that is useful for the US.
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On June 15 2016 01:27 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On June 15 2016 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source There is no difference between doing this and breaking into a building and taking pictures of cabinets full of documents. This should be responded to with sanctions. I am really sick of shit not being taken seriously because someone used a computer to do it. Do we suddenly live in a world where espionage between two not-so-friendly nations doesn't happen? So we should just take the perspective that everyone is fucking everyone, so let's just let it slide? What incentive do we have to not use evidence of foul play to leverage our allies to weaken an enemy? We should be using this as much as we can. Maybe Germany should have put sanctions on the US for the wiretapping Merkel as was discussed a year or two ago? The fact that you refer to Russia as an enemy, rather than just another nation with its own geopolitical interests (like, you know, every other country in the world) probably means that your perspective on this is blinded by knee-jerk emotional reactions. If we all had these knee-jerk disproportional reactions to every unhappy event that affects the US then the world would be a much shittier place. Thankfully our diplomats are a bit more level-headed than that.
It is annoying that it happened, but I prefer a world where we are aware the other nations are spying on us and it’s part of doing business. At least then we can spy back. Heavy handed retribution for stuff like this is not productive.
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On June 15 2016 01:27 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On June 15 2016 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source There is no difference between doing this and breaking into a building and taking pictures of cabinets full of documents. This should be responded to with sanctions. I am really sick of shit not being taken seriously because someone used a computer to do it. Do we suddenly live in a world where espionage between two not-so-friendly nations doesn't happen? So we should just take the perspective that everyone is fucking everyone, so let's just let it slide? What incentive do we have to not use evidence of foul play to leverage our allies to weaken an enemy? We should be using this as much as we can. Maybe Germany should have put sanctions on the US for the wiretapping Merkel as was discussed a year or two ago? The fact that you refer to Russia as an enemy, rather than just another nation with its own geopolitical interests (like, you know, every other country in the world) probably means that your perspective on this is blinded by knee-jerk emotional reactions. If we all had these knee-jerk disproportional reactions to every unhappy event that affects the US then the world would be a much shittier place. Thankfully our diplomats are a bit more level-headed than that.
Russia and the US are in as close to direct military conflict as it gets modern day. Pretending we are all just a bunch of humans trying to get by is silly. Geopolitical power struggles exist and pretending we are all some united people is silly.
If it was in Germany's interest to put sanctions on the US, it would have. It has no such interest.
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Obama going hard after people who say it is problematic that he doesn't use the term "Islamic Extremists" and the like. Speech is live now.
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On June 15 2016 01:31 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 01:27 LegalLord wrote:On June 15 2016 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On June 15 2016 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:On June 15 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Russian government hackers penetrated DNC, stole opposition research on Trump
Russian government hackers penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee and gained access to the entire database of opposition research on GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to committee officials and security experts who responded to the breach.
The intruders so thoroughly compromised the DNC’s system they also were able to read all e-mail and chat traffic, said DNC officials and the security experts.
The intrusion into the DNC was one of several targeting American political organizations. The networks of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were also targeted by Russian spies, as were the computers of some GOP political action committees, U.S. officials said. But details on those cases were not available.
Source There is no difference between doing this and breaking into a building and taking pictures of cabinets full of documents. This should be responded to with sanctions. I am really sick of shit not being taken seriously because someone used a computer to do it. Do we suddenly live in a world where espionage between two not-so-friendly nations doesn't happen? So we should just take the perspective that everyone is fucking everyone, so let's just let it slide? What incentive do we have to not use evidence of foul play to leverage our allies to weaken an enemy? We should be using this as much as we can. Maybe Germany should have put sanctions on the US for the wiretapping Merkel as was discussed a year or two ago? The fact that you refer to Russia as an enemy, rather than just another nation with its own geopolitical interests (like, you know, every other country in the world) probably means that your perspective on this is blinded by knee-jerk emotional reactions. If we all had these knee-jerk disproportional reactions to every unhappy event that affects the US then the world would be a much shittier place. Thankfully our diplomats are a bit more level-headed than that. Russia and the US are in as close to direct military conflict as it gets modern day. Pretending we are all just a bunch of humans trying to get by is silly. Geopolitical power struggles exist and pretending we are all some united people is silly. If it was in Germany's interest to put sanctions on the US, it would have. It has no such interest.
We were close to military conflict in the Cold War too. But our efforts to spy on each other and obtain information about our opponents true intent was one of the ways that war was prevented. Nations spy on each other to find out what the other side is really planning and thinking. When Reagan was shot, many Russians back in Russia believed there would be a coup. It was only the people in the Russian embassy that knew that wouldn’t take place.
Expect some response, but we are doing the exact same thing to them right now. And they know it. Its part of the game both sides play.
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On June 15 2016 01:33 On_Slaught wrote:
Obama going hard after people who say it is problematic that he doesn't use the term "Islamic Extremists" and the like. Speech is live now.
He's giving them a big ole' f you
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On June 15 2016 01:38 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 01:33 On_Slaught wrote:
Obama going hard after people who say it is problematic that he doesn't use the term "Islamic Extremists" and the like. Speech is live now. He's giving them a big ole' f you
He definitely is, and he just specifically went after Trump for a minute there. Didn't mention him by name, but called him "Presumptive Republican Nominee" and then attacked him for basically helping ISIS push its propaganda.
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On June 15 2016 01:38 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 01:33 On_Slaught wrote:
Obama going hard after people who say it is problematic that he doesn't use the term "Islamic Extremists" and the like. Speech is live now. He's giving them a big ole' f you
link? 
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On June 15 2016 01:42 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 01:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On June 15 2016 01:33 On_Slaught wrote:
Obama going hard after people who say it is problematic that he doesn't use the term "Islamic Extremists" and the like. Speech is live now. He's giving them a big ole' f you link?
It just finished. It'll be up somewhere soon.
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EPT
