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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 14 2016 03:47 GMT
#80861
That is already a crime, it's called being an accessory to the crime. No need for new laws.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 04:04:32
June 14 2016 04:00 GMT
#80862
On June 14 2016 12:42 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 11:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On June 14 2016 11:25 oBlade wrote:
We need to make sure every single last person involved in this plan – including anyone who knew something but didn't tell us – is brought to justice.

If it can be proven that somebody had information about any attack, and did not give this information to authorities, they must serve prison time .

We're not talking about outing people for being secret Jews or something. Is it not already a crime not to report when someone discloses a terrorist conspiracy to you? I'm not really sure. But that seems like a straightforward and good thing to be able to prosecute. Aren't people with professional confidentiality, like doctors and lawyers, obligated to report threats to life?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/help-prevent-terrorist-attacks

On June 14 2016 10:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
On June 14 2016 09:22 oBlade wrote:
I mean, they titled an article "Donald Trump suggests President Obama was involved with Orlando shooting," it didn't just come out of nowhere. He engages with the press far more than HRC, who has hardly been holding any press conferences to kick people out of to begin with.


You may think you have lowered your standards enough for Trump today, but he will make you lower them. By the time Nov 9 rolls around he will have broken every last alleged principle you think you have. There is a reason the conservative intelligentsia has gone #NeverTrump. Stay on that train at your own peril.

I'm not a conservative, so I wouldn't be bound by their hashtags. With respect to demanding a higher standard from Buzzfeed, Gawker, and the Huffington Post, our principles are definitely aligned.


Remember that story a few weeks ago about the woman who reported the terrorist on the airplane and saved the day? No you don't because she reported some guy doing math on a plane like a dumb ass.

The movies you watch where the average American saves the day doesn't happen in real life. You're just asking people to pollute our police and investigators with false reports. Penalties for not reporting will just increase these false reports.

I do remember the story. While we're on anecdotes, we live in a world where Stephano snuck a knife onto an airliner, so I do feel more comfortable knowing people of good conscience keep their eyes open. I'm going to assume you didn't mean one woman's retarded mistake a month ago is enough to destabilize law enforcement.

Reporting something as maybe suspicious, which has been going on in air travel for years and law enforcement forever, is different than reporting an active terrorist conspiracy. Michael Fortier was convicted for not warning authorities about the Oklahoma City bombing, no? If someone has actual substantive knowledge of a terrorist plot, and they don't alert anyone, they're culpable.


One woman's mistake isn't enough to bring down law enforcement, but when a million people report that muslim looking guy who lives near them for doing everyday tasks that aren't terrorism because they're scared of being punished it does become a problem.

What Trump is suggesting is so far beyond Michael Fortier that I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up. Or is this another one of those you're interpreting Trump wrong moments and we should just cease discussion.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 04:17:39
June 14 2016 04:16 GMT
#80863
On June 14 2016 12:42 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 11:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On June 14 2016 11:25 oBlade wrote:
We need to make sure every single last person involved in this plan – including anyone who knew something but didn't tell us – is brought to justice.

If it can be proven that somebody had information about any attack, and did not give this information to authorities, they must serve prison time .

We're not talking about outing people for being secret Jews or something. Is it not already a crime not to report when someone discloses a terrorist conspiracy to you? I'm not really sure. But that seems like a straightforward and good thing to be able to prosecute. Aren't people with professional confidentiality, like doctors and lawyers, obligated to report threats to life?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/help-prevent-terrorist-attacks

On June 14 2016 10:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
On June 14 2016 09:22 oBlade wrote:
I mean, they titled an article "Donald Trump suggests President Obama was involved with Orlando shooting," it didn't just come out of nowhere. He engages with the press far more than HRC, who has hardly been holding any press conferences to kick people out of to begin with.


You may think you have lowered your standards enough for Trump today, but he will make you lower them. By the time Nov 9 rolls around he will have broken every last alleged principle you think you have. There is a reason the conservative intelligentsia has gone #NeverTrump. Stay on that train at your own peril.

I'm not a conservative, so I wouldn't be bound by their hashtags. With respect to demanding a higher standard from Buzzfeed, Gawker, and the Huffington Post, our principles are definitely aligned.


Remember that story a few weeks ago about the woman who reported the terrorist on the airplane and saved the day? No you don't because she reported some guy doing math on a plane like a dumb ass.

The movies you watch where the average American saves the day doesn't happen in real life. You're just asking people to pollute our police and investigators with false reports. Penalties for not reporting will just increase these false reports.

I do remember the story. While we're on anecdotes, we live in a world where Stephano snuck a knife onto an airliner, so I do feel more comfortable knowing people of good conscience keep their eyes open. I'm going to assume you didn't mean one woman's retarded mistake a month ago is enough to destabilize law enforcement.

Reporting something as maybe suspicious, which has been going on in air travel for years and law enforcement forever, is different than reporting an active terrorist conspiracy. Michael Fortier was convicted for not warning authorities about the Oklahoma City bombing, no? If someone has actual substantive knowledge of a terrorist plot, and they don't alert anyone, they're culpable.


As you must know Trump is not merely talking about "substantive knowledge of a terrorist plot". He's saying if you see people move in to a house that you think are suspicious (they're brown and Muslimy), you should report them even if you're most likely wrong. You really should own the entirety of Trump's statements when defending him, I know it makes it very hard.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
June 14 2016 04:19 GMT
#80864
“Her plan is to disarm law-abiding Americans, abolishing the Second Amendment and leaving only the bad guys and terrorists with guns,” he said. “She wants to take away Americans’ guns, then admit the very people who want to slaughter us.”

This is actually what Trump said in a major speech. Can a Trump apologist in here please argue this is not an instance of him lying through his teeth?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 14 2016 04:21 GMT
#80865
Lawyers for Donald Trump are fighting a legal move that could result in the public seeing videos of the presumptive GOP presidential nominee being subjected to pointed questions about his Trump University real estate seminar program.

Class-action lawyers suing Trump for fraud over the Trump University business attempted last week to file 48 video clips of the real estate mogul at two recent depositions, including segments where he offered prickly responses to what he called "harassment questions."

The plaintiffs said they needed to file the videos to show Trump's demeanor and to clarify some video segments not transcribed by a court reporter, but in a filing Monday with a federal court in San Diego, Trump's legal team called those reasons "disingenuous."

"Plaintiff offers no legitimate reason for seeking submission of these videos, which are clearly intended to prejudice Mr. Trump," Trump lawyers Dan Petrocelli and David Kirman wrote. "Plaintiff's request to use video transcripts is an obvious attempt to prejudice Mr. Trump."

Trump's attorneys did not explicitly refer to his presidential bid or say what type of "prejudice" they believed was intended. However, they noted that the credibility of witnesses is not supposed to be considered by the judge at this point in a case.

Petrocelli and Kirman also served up a warning of sorts to U.S. District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel and the plaintiffs by saying that, if video submissions are permitted, Trump's side will seek to file potentially unflattering video clips of depositions from Trump University students and others "whose credibility could be called into question based on their demeanor in the video."

"Admission of [the plaintiffs' video clips] could necessitate defendant to respond in kind with similar videos, all of which will result in many inefficiencies and will make the record unnecessarily unmanageable," Trump's lawyers wrote.

A coalition of media organizations filed a motion with the judge Friday asking him to lift any limits on the plaintiffs' authority to release the full videos of Trump's depositions conducted in December in New York and in January in Las Vegas.
Curiel has yet to rule on that motion, but set a hearing on that issue for June 30.

Trump launched a series of racially-charged attacks on the judge earlier this month and has insisted that the judge has been unfair, but the real estate developer's attorneys have never raised those issues in court, nor have they moved to recuse Curiel.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5488 Posts
June 14 2016 04:35 GMT
#80866
On June 14 2016 12:47 Plansix wrote:
That is already a crime, it's called being an accessory to the crime. No need for new laws.

I asked that a few posts ago, so thanks for confirming it.

On June 14 2016 13:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 12:42 oBlade wrote:
On June 14 2016 11:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On June 14 2016 11:25 oBlade wrote:
We need to make sure every single last person involved in this plan – including anyone who knew something but didn't tell us – is brought to justice.

If it can be proven that somebody had information about any attack, and did not give this information to authorities, they must serve prison time .

We're not talking about outing people for being secret Jews or something. Is it not already a crime not to report when someone discloses a terrorist conspiracy to you? I'm not really sure. But that seems like a straightforward and good thing to be able to prosecute. Aren't people with professional confidentiality, like doctors and lawyers, obligated to report threats to life?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/help-prevent-terrorist-attacks

On June 14 2016 10:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
On June 14 2016 09:22 oBlade wrote:
I mean, they titled an article "Donald Trump suggests President Obama was involved with Orlando shooting," it didn't just come out of nowhere. He engages with the press far more than HRC, who has hardly been holding any press conferences to kick people out of to begin with.


You may think you have lowered your standards enough for Trump today, but he will make you lower them. By the time Nov 9 rolls around he will have broken every last alleged principle you think you have. There is a reason the conservative intelligentsia has gone #NeverTrump. Stay on that train at your own peril.

I'm not a conservative, so I wouldn't be bound by their hashtags. With respect to demanding a higher standard from Buzzfeed, Gawker, and the Huffington Post, our principles are definitely aligned.


Remember that story a few weeks ago about the woman who reported the terrorist on the airplane and saved the day? No you don't because she reported some guy doing math on a plane like a dumb ass.

The movies you watch where the average American saves the day doesn't happen in real life. You're just asking people to pollute our police and investigators with false reports. Penalties for not reporting will just increase these false reports.

I do remember the story. While we're on anecdotes, we live in a world where Stephano snuck a knife onto an airliner, so I do feel more comfortable knowing people of good conscience keep their eyes open. I'm going to assume you didn't mean one woman's retarded mistake a month ago is enough to destabilize law enforcement.

Reporting something as maybe suspicious, which has been going on in air travel for years and law enforcement forever, is different than reporting an active terrorist conspiracy. Michael Fortier was convicted for not warning authorities about the Oklahoma City bombing, no? If someone has actual substantive knowledge of a terrorist plot, and they don't alert anyone, they're culpable.


One woman's mistake isn't enough to bring down law enforcement, but when a million people report that muslim looking guy who lives near them for doing everyday tasks that aren't terrorism because they're scared of being punished it does become a problem.

What Trump is suggesting is so far beyond Michael Fortier that I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up. Or is this another one of those you're interpreting Trump wrong moments and we should just cease discussion.

Is this the million reports thing you're talking about?
Trump’s proposal that Americans be forced to report their neighbors expands on an idea he’s been peddling since last year, when he told a crowd in South Carolina, “People move into a house a block down the road, you know who’s going in. You can see and you report them to the local police. Most likely you’ll be wrong, but that’s OK. That’s the best way. Everybody’s their own cop in a way.”

Because that was mined and injected, as HuffPost says, from apparently a campaign rally a year ago. The author* is the one drawing a connection to his speech today where there is none. In that quote, he's just advocating see something, say something; not see something, say nothing, see Himmler. This is from the source of his statement after the attack, he seems to be talking about co-conspirators or "accessories," not proposing any kind of "new law" about introducing punishments for not calling the police when people are brown in front of you or whatever spin it is this time:
We need to make sure every single last person involved in this plan – including anyone who knew something but didn't tell us – is brought to justice.

If it can be proven that somebody had information about any attack, and did not give this information to authorities, they must serve prison time .

*This is apparently a footnote of every HuffPost article on the candidate, including the one StealthBlue linked, made me laugh, and it's unfortunate because there are many controversial things in the speech, as usual, which are interesting to talk about if you actually go to the primary source and digest it rather than getting one twisted nugget through HuffPost:
+ Show Spoiler +
Editor’s note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 14 2016 04:43 GMT
#80867
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 04:53:14
June 14 2016 04:46 GMT
#80868
"Hey you know those laws that make you an accessory to a crime if you have substantive knowledge but don't tell anyone, they should apply to terrorism too. They already do though, so nevermind."

Is that really all Trump's saying in this speech about what he'll do as President?
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 14 2016 05:27 GMT
#80869
On June 14 2016 13:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWGc_4ZcTM

Bill needs a higher grade of guest on his show.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5488 Posts
June 14 2016 05:41 GMT
#80870
On June 14 2016 13:46 Doodsmack wrote:
"Hey you know those laws that make you an accessory to a crime if you have substantive knowledge but don't tell anyone, they should apply to terrorism too. They already do though, so nevermind."

Is that really all Trump's saying in this speech about what he'll do as President?

Here's the rest of the speech:

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-addresses-terrorism-immigration-and-national-security
Here's the video, the text doesn't reflect the liberties and stumbles he takes in delivery:
+ Show Spoiler +


But in that snippet, yes, he's trying to display strength after a tragedy, that's all. He's saying someone murdered 50 people, do a full investigation, and if anyone else was involved, go after them. It seems more obvious than controversial, blown up by HuffPost for I guess their own reasons.

The shot he took at HRC was hyperbolic, but they are opponents, right?
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
June 14 2016 06:19 GMT
#80871
On June 14 2016 14:27 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 13:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWGc_4ZcTM

Bill needs a higher grade of guest on his show.

hillary refuses to be a guest
i wonder why

obama also has never been on the show even after Bill donated a million
© Current year.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44114 Posts
June 14 2016 06:37 GMT
#80872
On June 14 2016 15:19 CorsairHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 14:27 xDaunt wrote:
On June 14 2016 13:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWGc_4ZcTM

Bill needs a higher grade of guest on his show.

hillary refuses to be a guest
i wonder why

obama also has never been on the show even after Bill donated a million


I honestly don't understand why Obama hasn't been a guest on his show; Obama is far smarter than Bill Maher, and it's not like Bill Maher would be the first person to ever hold Obama accountable for saying and doing things on a talk show before.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
JW_DTLA
Profile Joined December 2015
242 Posts
June 14 2016 07:17 GMT
#80873
Bill's Alt-Left Atheism** is a no go for a national candidate. Bernie went on there, but he was never actually a national candidate outside of the white liberals. There is this whole rest of the country that takes their religion and conservatism very seriously. HRC/Obama have to (1) win votes from a broader electorate than just Democratic primary voters and (2) actually expect to be the president and responsible for that larger electorate. Bill is just too politically incorrect.

**I say this as an Alt-Left Atheist who loves Bill Maher
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
June 14 2016 07:30 GMT
#80874
Trump banning the Washington Post from his events for saying things about him, based on his own words, that he didn't like. Guy clearly feels he isn't accountable to a free press.

In the words of Klay Thompson, "I guess his feelings got hurt."
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
June 14 2016 07:41 GMT
#80875
On June 14 2016 16:30 On_Slaught wrote:
Trump banning the Washington Post from his events for saying things about him, based on his own words, that he didn't like. Guy clearly feels he isn't accountable to a free press.

In the words of Klay Thompson, "I guess his feelings got hurt."

Was the Washington Posts headline accurate? Apparently not because they changed it.
© Current year.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7878 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 09:08:35
June 14 2016 09:05 GMT
#80876
A Krugman note about the seriousness of the people Trump recruited to figure out the economy in his campaign. We have Stephen Moore the chief economist from the Heritage Foundation (big fat red light turning on) and Lary Kudlow who... well, just read the article.

Send in the Clowns

Still boggled by reports that Trump, having realized that the numbers on his tax plan aren’t remotely credible, has decided to fix things by bringing in as experts … Larry Kudlow and Stephen Moore. I mean, at some level this was predictable. But it still tells you a lot about both Donald the Doofus and his chosen party.

Granted that Trump is deeply ignorant about policy; still, you might have thought that he would try to signal his independence from the establishment by, say, turning to some business economist. Instead, he turned to the usual suspects from the right-wing noise machine. And what a choice!

I mean, Kudlow is to economics what William Kristol is to political strategy: if he says something, you know it’s wrong. When he ridiculed “bubbleheads” who thought overvalued real estate could bring down the economy, you should have rushed for the bomb shelters; when he proclaimed Bush a huge success, because a rising stock market is the ultimate verdict on a presidency (unless the president is a Democrat), you should have known that the Bush era would end with epochal collapse.

And then there’s Moore, who has a similarly awesome forecasting record, and adds to it an impressive lack of even minimal technical competence. Seriously: read the CJR report on his mess-up over job numbers:

"The recurring “oops,” intended as a dig at Krugman, took on an unintended irony after Abouhalkah discovered that Moore’s numbers did not match those of the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

In fact, Moore later acknowledged, he was using BLS numbers not from “the last five years” but from an earlier five-year period: December 2007 to December 2012. Focusing on that period is arguably dubious, because the span captures the depths of the Great Recession and the housing crash, which hit some states harder than others—and whose impact likely would have swamped any tax-rate effect. There are other issues with the quality of Moore’s argument, too, like its glancing-at-best treatment of how factors like housing costs shape population and job growth.

In any case, Abouhalkah found, Moore’s numbers were wrong even for 2007-12, in ways that complicated the “low taxes = more jobs” message.

Texas did not gain 1 million jobs in the 2007-2012 period Moore measured. The correct figure was a gain of 497,400 jobs.

Florida did not add hundreds of thousands of jobs in that span. It actually lost 461,500 jobs.

New York, with [its] very high income tax rates, did not lose jobs during that time. It gained 75,900 jobs.

Oops, indeed."


Of course, Moore remains the chief economist at Heritage. And maybe Trump believes that this is a certificate of quality, that anyone in that position must be a real expert.

Truly, Donald Trump, you know nothing.


source
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Surth
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Germany456 Posts
June 14 2016 09:45 GMT
#80877
But it still tells you a lot about both Donald the Doofus and his chosen party.
People have to stop equating Trump with Republicans whenever they see fit. How is it that we simultaneously have discussions about how Trump is barely accepted by most of the big players in the GOP, and at the same time have cheap potshots like "Trump is like, soooo typical republican." Also, in general, Krugman can shut the hell up.
i believe your actions dishonour Starcraft 2 LotV cybersport!
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 11:22:11
June 14 2016 11:19 GMT
#80878
republican strat was having the elites lead the captive trumpkin voters but the table has turned. try to follow the zombie apocalypse more closely


heritage in particular is just trash
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44114 Posts
June 14 2016 11:34 GMT
#80879
This is a great explanation as to why diplomacy should always be on the table, and while listening to your enemy- not necessarily just to undermine and trick them, but because they're actually human beings- is important.

"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44114 Posts
June 14 2016 11:37 GMT
#80880
On June 14 2016 18:45 Surth wrote:
Show nested quote +
But it still tells you a lot about both Donald the Doofus and his chosen party.
People have to stop equating Trump with Republicans whenever they see fit. How is it that we simultaneously have discussions about how Trump is barely accepted by most of the big players in the GOP, and at the same time have cheap potshots like "Trump is like, soooo typical republican." Also, in general, Krugman can shut the hell up.


While Trump doesn't hold all of the typical, traditional Republican values, the majority of American Republican voters believe that he represents their views moreso than any other candidate. So whether or not he's a Reagan Republican, he's officially the face of the Republican Party because Republicans want him to be. The Republican Party made their bed, and now they have to lie in it.

This is the new Republican Party, for better or for worse, for at least the next few years.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
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