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On November 20 2015 10:02 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 09:59 Plansix wrote:
I think if you were trying to be a specific person with an afro, it would be fine the rest of your costume is on point. Just don't go as "a black guy" like being black is a costume. That is when it gets weird. And yet in the case of blade, even with an otherwise convincing costume, adding the black makeup makes it offensive? Even when it is abundantly clear that the costume isn't just some black dude?
The idea is you might offend somebody or hurt their feelings and that is worse than trying to deny your right to dress up as Blade.
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On November 20 2015 10:31 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 10:02 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 09:59 Plansix wrote:
I think if you were trying to be a specific person with an afro, it would be fine the rest of your costume is on point. Just don't go as "a black guy" like being black is a costume. That is when it gets weird. And yet in the case of blade, even with an otherwise convincing costume, adding the black makeup makes it offensive? Even when it is abundantly clear that the costume isn't just some black dude? The idea is you might offend somebody or hurt their feelings and that is worse than trying to deny your right to dress up as Blade.
If someone was truly, deeply offended that I dressed up as a toaster, would it still be worse than denying my right to dress as a toaster?
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I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol.
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I have trouble concerning myself with what others find offensive. All this talk about costumes or whatever being offensive to some people and I'm still waiting for a point to be made. Sure a costume can be inappropriate or in poor taste, but so what, the person who wears such a costume will have to deal with the consequences of doing so. But to say that a costume is offensive is saying nothing. So you are offended, get over it.
Or, as Stephen Fry puts it:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
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On November 20 2015 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:
So how about wearing a black afro wig? What if was dressing up as someone who has an iconic afro? No makeup, but a really black person'ish afro wig? Is that offensive? It is distinctly and uniquely black, but it isn't skin.
Somebody will find it offensive, given a big enough exposure of the costume. Making fun of african american culture and all that. I'm glad blackface was brought up, since dressing up as some 19th century blackface actor would be beyond the pale.
But it is still beside the point. You're looking to delineate on rational lines of thought. You'll find none of it here. It's all perceived ridicule, racism, offense and that is in the eye of the beholder.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I understand getting crap for trying to dress like some generic black person (black face, big lips, watermelon, baggy clothes etc.), but if people give someone shit for trying to dress up as some famous fictional character then they need to take a step back. I definitely do not prescribe to the whole "if someone's offended they're in the right" PC crap many adhere to these days.
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On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol.
I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a.
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On November 20 2015 10:33 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 10:31 OmniEulogy wrote:On November 20 2015 10:02 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 09:59 Plansix wrote:
I think if you were trying to be a specific person with an afro, it would be fine the rest of your costume is on point. Just don't go as "a black guy" like being black is a costume. That is when it gets weird. And yet in the case of blade, even with an otherwise convincing costume, adding the black makeup makes it offensive? Even when it is abundantly clear that the costume isn't just some black dude? The idea is you might offend somebody or hurt their feelings and that is worse than trying to deny your right to dress up as Blade. If someone was truly, deeply offended that I dressed up as a toaster, would it still be worse than denying my right to dress as a toaster?
To some people probably. That's just the world we live in lol. I'm with the others in that I think it's ridiculous to try to censor you based on somebody elses feelings. I was just giving you my thoughts on why it's so "wrong" to do as you were suggesting as you didn't seem to be getting anywhere with P6 
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On November 20 2015 06:00 ticklishmusic wrote:Obama killing it usual: Show nested quote +I don't want you to think that a display of your strength is simply shutting other people up. And that part of your ability to bring about change is going to be by engagement and understanding the viewpoints and the arguments of the other side.
And so when I hear, for example, you know, folks on college campuses saying, "We're not going to allow somebody to speak on our campus because we disagree with their ideas or we feel threatened by their ideas--" you know, I think that's a recipe for dogmatism. And I think you're not going to be as effective…
I do worry if young people start getting trained to think that if somebody says something I don't like, if somebody says something that hurts my feelings, that my only recourse is to shut them up, avoid them, push them away, call on a higher power to protect me from that. Source
I entirely agree with him.
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In an shocking coincidence I've actually dressed up as Blade for Halloween. More specifically Blade 2 since that movie was complete dog shit.
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On November 20 2015 10:36 Kickstart wrote:
I have trouble concerning myself with what others find offensive. All this talk about costumes or whatever being offensive to some people and I'm still waiting for a point to be made. Sure a costume can be inappropriate or in poor taste, but so what, the person who wears such a costume will have to deal with the consequences of doing so. But to say that a costume is offensive is saying nothing. So you are offended, get over it.
Or, as Stephen Fry puts it:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Your post seems to be implying that it hasn't been extensively explained how any why wearing blackface is seen as offensive, and doing so is inadvisable.
Your final two sentences are contradictory. You say that people should have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but then immediately after say that other people should just "get over it". People not just "getting over it" is the consequence of their actions.
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What people find offensive doesn't always make sense. In fact, it usually doesn't in one way or another. There are a fair number of things we avoid in daily interactions simply because they bring about more trouble than they're worth. Wearing blackface is one of those things. Yeah, you can probably pretty successfully argue that you should be able to dress like Blade unfettered by the judgments of others, but you'll inevitably run into a similarly well established though opposing perspective, likely from a minority, that can meaningfully connect most representations of their race with racism of some kind. Yes, there'll be a lot of people who fail to make that case and yet will trumpet their offense the most loudly, but that isn't exactly license to ignore the likely quiet feelings of people who will, perhaps "illogically" so, be reminded of something painful or something hurtful when they see what appears to be a comical take on their race.
It doesn't have to make sense for it to still be something worth listening to, nor does any of this mean that you can't dress up as Blade if you want to lol. I wouldn't hold it against you, but I know some smart, interesting people who might, and sometimes they have good things to say.
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On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a.
The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine.
The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended."
Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first".
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On November 20 2015 11:08 YumYumGranola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 10:36 Kickstart wrote:
I have trouble concerning myself with what others find offensive. All this talk about costumes or whatever being offensive to some people and I'm still waiting for a point to be made. Sure a costume can be inappropriate or in poor taste, but so what, the person who wears such a costume will have to deal with the consequences of doing so. But to say that a costume is offensive is saying nothing. So you are offended, get over it.
Or, as Stephen Fry puts it:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Your post seems to be implying that it hasn't been extensively explained how any why wearing blackface is seen as offensive, and doing so is inadvisable. Your final two sentences are contradictory. You say that people should have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but then immediately after say that other people should just "get over it". People not just "getting over it" is the consequence of their actions.
Pretty sure he means people who wear a costume that is obviously offensive should be prepared to deal with people telling them they shouldn't be out in public wearing w/e but people still need to learn to get over it and not let it ruin their night because ultimately that person can wear whatever they want within the limits of the law. It's not really contradictory.
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On November 20 2015 11:08 YumYumGranola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 10:36 Kickstart wrote:
I have trouble concerning myself with what others find offensive. All this talk about costumes or whatever being offensive to some people and I'm still waiting for a point to be made. Sure a costume can be inappropriate or in poor taste, but so what, the person who wears such a costume will have to deal with the consequences of doing so. But to say that a costume is offensive is saying nothing. So you are offended, get over it.
Or, as Stephen Fry puts it:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Your post seems to be implying that it hasn't been extensively explained how any why wearing blackface is seen as offensive, and doing so is inadvisable. Your final two sentences are contradictory. You say that people should have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but then immediately after say that other people should just "get over it". People not just "getting over it" is the consequence of their actions.
Yes, and I'd venture to say that anyone wearing blackface or a Nazi uniform or a KKK robe will surely face consequences depending on where they wear said costumes. Me saying people shouldn't whine about it and that people who do these things will face the consequences of doing so is in no way contradictory. To me it the same as free speech. People can say just about whatever they want, in any forum. Getting offended over people saying, or in this case wearing, stupid things does no one any good. But you can be sure that someone ranting on like a lunatic is going to face consequences from people who hear it, just as someone who wears something ridiculous will. This is just another example of manufactured outrage over something so trivial. Go be mad about something else, not about what costume someone wears.
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On November 20 2015 10:33 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 10:31 OmniEulogy wrote:On November 20 2015 10:02 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 09:59 Plansix wrote:
I think if you were trying to be a specific person with an afro, it would be fine the rest of your costume is on point. Just don't go as "a black guy" like being black is a costume. That is when it gets weird. And yet in the case of blade, even with an otherwise convincing costume, adding the black makeup makes it offensive? Even when it is abundantly clear that the costume isn't just some black dude? The idea is you might offend somebody or hurt their feelings and that is worse than trying to deny your right to dress up as Blade. If someone was truly, deeply offended that I dressed up as a toaster, would it still be worse than denying my right to dress as a toaster?
You have the right to dress up however you want, including to wear blackface. The US government will not come knocking on your door if you wear blackface. You don't have the right to be free from other people exercising their right to free speech by criticizing your decision.
I often find the anti-PC crowd just as bad as they believe the PC crowd to be. In either case it's people not wanting to hear arguments they disagree with or don't recognize as valid.
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On November 20 2015 11:14 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:08 YumYumGranola wrote:On November 20 2015 10:36 Kickstart wrote:
I have trouble concerning myself with what others find offensive. All this talk about costumes or whatever being offensive to some people and I'm still waiting for a point to be made. Sure a costume can be inappropriate or in poor taste, but so what, the person who wears such a costume will have to deal with the consequences of doing so. But to say that a costume is offensive is saying nothing. So you are offended, get over it.
Or, as Stephen Fry puts it:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Your post seems to be implying that it hasn't been extensively explained how any why wearing blackface is seen as offensive, and doing so is inadvisable. Your final two sentences are contradictory. You say that people should have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but then immediately after say that other people should just "get over it". People not just "getting over it" is the consequence of their actions. Yes, and I'd venture to say that anyone wearing blackface or a Nazi uniform or a KKK robe will surely face consequences depending on where they wear said costumes. Me saying people shouldn't whine about it and that people who do these things will face the consequences of doing so is in no way contradictory. To me it the same as free speech. People can say just about whatever they want, in any forum. Getting offended over people saying, or in this case wearing, stupid things does no one any good. But you can be sure that someone ranting on like a lunatic is going to face consequences from people who hear it, just as someone who wears something ridiculous will. This is just another example of manufactured outrage over something so trivial. Go be mad about something else, not about what costume someone wears.
I would point out that you don't get to decide what is trivial for someone else. You can only do that for yourself and no on is required to agree with you. And attempting to enforce that belief is saying "You shouldn't be offended by this, it is trivial."
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On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first".
How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want.
And the "You first"response makes no sense.
On November 20 2015 11:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:14 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:08 YumYumGranola wrote:On November 20 2015 10:36 Kickstart wrote:
I have trouble concerning myself with what others find offensive. All this talk about costumes or whatever being offensive to some people and I'm still waiting for a point to be made. Sure a costume can be inappropriate or in poor taste, but so what, the person who wears such a costume will have to deal with the consequences of doing so. But to say that a costume is offensive is saying nothing. So you are offended, get over it.
Or, as Stephen Fry puts it:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Your post seems to be implying that it hasn't been extensively explained how any why wearing blackface is seen as offensive, and doing so is inadvisable. Your final two sentences are contradictory. You say that people should have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but then immediately after say that other people should just "get over it". People not just "getting over it" is the consequence of their actions. Yes, and I'd venture to say that anyone wearing blackface or a Nazi uniform or a KKK robe will surely face consequences depending on where they wear said costumes. Me saying people shouldn't whine about it and that people who do these things will face the consequences of doing so is in no way contradictory. To me it the same as free speech. People can say just about whatever they want, in any forum. Getting offended over people saying, or in this case wearing, stupid things does no one any good. But you can be sure that someone ranting on like a lunatic is going to face consequences from people who hear it, just as someone who wears something ridiculous will. This is just another example of manufactured outrage over something so trivial. Go be mad about something else, not about what costume someone wears. I would point out that you don't get to decide what is trivial for someone else. You can only do that for yourself and no on is required to agree with you. And attempting to enforce that belief is saying "You shouldn't be offended by this, it is trivial."
I am well aware. Certain types of people will jump at any chance they can to be offended. But I will stand by the point that what someone wears in the context of Halloween is trivial. If your day is ruined because some moron wore a SS officer uniform or a man dressed as Jenner then you are the one who has the issue of being too thin skinned.
And I agree with you on the point that certain costumes can be offensive. But my point is there is nothing that can be done or that should be done, people should be able to wear what they wish, offensive or not.
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On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense.
I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people.
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On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people.
I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself?
Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech are offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so.
I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it.
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