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On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech is offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it.
We were not whining, we were discussing. You don't get to decided was offends others.
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On November 20 2015 11:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:14 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:08 YumYumGranola wrote:On November 20 2015 10:36 Kickstart wrote:
I have trouble concerning myself with what others find offensive. All this talk about costumes or whatever being offensive to some people and I'm still waiting for a point to be made. Sure a costume can be inappropriate or in poor taste, but so what, the person who wears such a costume will have to deal with the consequences of doing so. But to say that a costume is offensive is saying nothing. So you are offended, get over it.
Or, as Stephen Fry puts it:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Your post seems to be implying that it hasn't been extensively explained how any why wearing blackface is seen as offensive, and doing so is inadvisable. Your final two sentences are contradictory. You say that people should have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but then immediately after say that other people should just "get over it". People not just "getting over it" is the consequence of their actions. Yes, and I'd venture to say that anyone wearing blackface or a Nazi uniform or a KKK robe will surely face consequences depending on where they wear said costumes. Me saying people shouldn't whine about it and that people who do these things will face the consequences of doing so is in no way contradictory. To me it the same as free speech. People can say just about whatever they want, in any forum. Getting offended over people saying, or in this case wearing, stupid things does no one any good. But you can be sure that someone ranting on like a lunatic is going to face consequences from people who hear it, just as someone who wears something ridiculous will. This is just another example of manufactured outrage over something so trivial. Go be mad about something else, not about what costume someone wears. I would point out that you don't get to decide what is trivial for someone else. You can only do that for yourself and no on is required to agree with you. And attempting to enforce that belief is saying "You shouldn't be offended by this, it is trivial."
While I agree with this, it needs to be noted that outside of college people are going to be racially insensitive. People don't generally spend too much time thinking about the feelings of others. Attempting to eliminate any speech that can be construed as racist or bigoted on college campuses may make certain people feel safer but one day they're going to have to leave the cocoon.
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On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech are offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it.
They don't work differently. You have the legal right to wear all of the examples you posted earlier for Halloween.
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you guys aren't actually arguing about anything. You both agree that he can dress up as he wants, you both agree that if you dress up in something absolutely outrageous you'll need to deal with the consequences, and you both agree that you are fully within your rights to do so regardless of if somebody else gets offended.
right?
and P6 I don't think he's trying to decide anything. He's acknowledging it can be offensive to somebody else and saying it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things in regards to what Mohdoo was asking about as far as I can tell.
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On November 20 2015 11:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech is offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. We were not whining, we were discussing. You don't get to decided was offends others.
I can see this is going nowhere. It is the same line you give for any such issue. I am aware that I don't get to decide what others find offensive. My question, for the nth time, is what do you think should be done. I already granted you that some costumes are offensive, we don't disagree there. I just don't understand how this 'discussion' you claim to be having is more than a whine when all you are saying is "this and that are offensive". What isn't being done now that should be happening in your mind. I would posit that there is nothing that should be done that doesn't already happen, so there is little point in getting all bent out of shape over it.
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On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech are offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it.
I'm confused by your point. Are you expecting that people will say things, but that they shouldn't be upset by it? People say things because they're upset by it. Speech is how you express yourself. I don't get how you're separating the two in your mind.
Nothing has to be done about it. A hypothetical person might dress up in blackface. Hypothetical other people might think it's offensive and use their free speech to inform that person. The first person may choose to apologize and not wear the costume, or they may ignore those comments and instead engage in intellectual masturbation about the true meaning of offensiveness. It doesn't really matter either way.
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On November 20 2015 11:34 YumYumGranola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech are offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. I'm confused by your point. Are you expecting that people will say things, but that they shouldn't be upset by it? People say things because they're upset by it. Speech is how you express yourself. I don't get how you're separating the two in your mind. Nothing has to be done about it. A hypothetical person might dress up in blackface. Hypothetical other people might think it's offensive and use their free speech to inform that person. The first person may choose to apologize and not wear the costume, or they may ignore those comments and instead engage in intellectual masturbation about the true meaning of offensiveness. It doesn't really matter either way.
It seems we pretty much agree then. Your last paragraph sums up what I've been trying to say, which is that things are going to happen the way they happen so there is little use in getting oneself worked up about it. Can you do so? Yes. Does it do anything? No. So save yourself the stress of letting what someone wears or says upset you so much. That isn't to say you shouldn't let them know they are dolts and being offensive, but that is about all you can.
Omni had it right, we all seem to agree on the basic points.
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On November 20 2015 11:31 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:27 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech is offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. We were not whining, we were discussing. You don't get to decided was offends others. I can see this is going nowhere. It is the same line you give for any such issue. I am aware that I don't get to decide what others find offensive. My question, for the nth time, is what do you think should be done. I already granted you that some costumes are offensive, we don't disagree there. I just don't understand how this 'discussion' you claim to be having is more than a whine when all you are saying is "this and that are offensive". What isn't being done now that should be happening in your mind. I would posit that there is nothing that should be done that doesn't already happen, so there is little point in getting all bent out of shape over it.
I disagree, people should talk and have an understanding on what is and isn't offensive. You can't stop people from offending others, but the dialog that results can be less defensive and not laced with denial of the offense.
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On November 20 2015 11:29 OmniEulogy wrote:
you guys aren't actually arguing about anything. You both agree that he can dress up as he wants, you both agree that if you dress up in something absolutely outrageous you'll need to deal with the consequences, and you both agree that you are fully within your rights to do so regardless of if somebody else gets offended.
right?
and P6 I don't think he's trying to decide anything. He's acknowledging it can be offensive to somebody else and saying it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things in regards to what Mohdoo was asking about as far as I can tell.
He is entitled to his opinion that it shouldn't matter. I am not required to agree and I have my own feelings on people who don't care if they offend others.
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Yeah I could imagine going as a US pilot covered in dead babies (dolls) would get the same people arguing "people are just whining that it hurts their feelings and it doesn't matter, they should just get over it" Surely you wouldn't see outrage on every right leaning site around talking about how the disrespect is unacceptable...
It really astonishes me how oblivious some folks can be.
Anyway on today's "Why bigots are making everything worse"
NEW YORK -- The US is racked with fear and paranoia. Following last week's attacks in Paris, a raft of ugly sentiment has surfaced from across the political right demonising not only Syrian refugees but anyone who professes to follow the Islamic faith.
The fear was stoked on Tuesday when Republican governors from Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Illinois, Iowa, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Mexico, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas signed a pledge promising to ban refugees from being resettled in their states. Constitutional experts suggest such a ban would be illegal, but the move is symbolic of the type of rightwing rhetoric infecting the country following the massacre in France.
Also on Tuesday, Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush suggested there should be a religious test for entry into the United States -- if you're Christian you're in, if you're Muslim you're out. How this test would be administred, the younger Bush failed to answer.
This type of overt bigotry was quickly reflected in the populace when on Wednesday a man interrupted a presentation for the building of a new mosque in Virginia, lambasting the speaker with racist abuse. “All Muslims are terrorists,” he shouted at Samer Shalaby, who was presenting the plans.
“I’ll do everything in my power to make sure that does not happen," he continued. "We don’t want it because you are terrorists. Every one of you are terrorists. I don’t care what you say. You can smile at me. You can say whatever you want, but every Muslim is a terrorist.” (audience applauds)
Source
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On November 20 2015 11:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:31 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:27 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech is offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. We were not whining, we were discussing. You don't get to decided was offends others. I can see this is going nowhere. It is the same line you give for any such issue. I am aware that I don't get to decide what others find offensive. My question, for the nth time, is what do you think should be done. I already granted you that some costumes are offensive, we don't disagree there. I just don't understand how this 'discussion' you claim to be having is more than a whine when all you are saying is "this and that are offensive". What isn't being done now that should be happening in your mind. I would posit that there is nothing that should be done that doesn't already happen, so there is little point in getting all bent out of shape over it. I disagree, people should talk and have an understanding on what is and isn't offensive. You can't stop people from offending others, but the dialog that results can be less defensive and not laced with denial of the offense.
But again we get into sticky territory here. Some people won't agree on what is offensive. I've seen some people say that men who dress as woman for Halloween is offensive, and I think that anyone who finds that offensive is a moron. If I dressed as a woman for whatever reason ( I wouldn't), and someone told me it offended them, I would think they are a moron no matter the reason for their offense, and I would not think I should change my costume. If someone dresses as a black character and paints their face black, I don't see that as being offensive. If someone dressed up in what we call 'blackface', then yes, that is offensive.
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On November 20 2015 11:42 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:38 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:31 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:27 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech is offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. We were not whining, we were discussing. You don't get to decided was offends others. I can see this is going nowhere. It is the same line you give for any such issue. I am aware that I don't get to decide what others find offensive. My question, for the nth time, is what do you think should be done. I already granted you that some costumes are offensive, we don't disagree there. I just don't understand how this 'discussion' you claim to be having is more than a whine when all you are saying is "this and that are offensive". What isn't being done now that should be happening in your mind. I would posit that there is nothing that should be done that doesn't already happen, so there is little point in getting all bent out of shape over it. I disagree, people should talk and have an understanding on what is and isn't offensive. You can't stop people from offending others, but the dialog that results can be less defensive and not laced with denial of the offense. But again we get into sticky territory here. Some people won't agree on what is offensive. I've seen some people say that men who dress as woman for Halloween is offensive, and I think that anyone who finds that offensive is a moron. If I dressed as a woman for whatever reason ( I wouldn't), and someone told me it offended them, I would think they are a moron no matter the reason for their offense, and I would not think I should change my costume. If someone dresses as a black character and paints their face black, I don't see that as being offensive. If someone dressed up in what we call 'blackface', then yes, that is offensive.
And the response to that is "don't be an asshole". If someone is offended by what you do, you have two options:
1: Let them know you feel they shouldn't' be offended.
2: Say that you are sorry you offended them and that you wouldn't have done it if you knew it would have.
I know which why I respond, but that is me. I don't set out to offend people or make them upset and I feel bad when I do. If you don't give a shit, thats fine. But the offended party doesn't have to be pumped about it. They can tell you to "get fucked".
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On November 20 2015 11:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Yeah I could imagine going as a US pilot covered in dead babies (dolls) would get the same people arguing "people are just whining that it hurts their feelings and it doesn't matter, they should just get over it" Surely you wouldn't see outrage on every right leaning site around talking about how the disrespect is unacceptable... It really astonishes me how oblivious some folks can be. Anyway on today's "Why bigots are making everything worse" Show nested quote +NEW YORK -- The US is racked with fear and paranoia. Following last week's attacks in Paris, a raft of ugly sentiment has surfaced from across the political right demonising not only Syrian refugees but anyone who professes to follow the Islamic faith.
The fear was stoked on Tuesday when Republican governors from Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Illinois, Iowa, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Mexico, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas signed a pledge promising to ban refugees from being resettled in their states. Constitutional experts suggest such a ban would be illegal, but the move is symbolic of the type of rightwing rhetoric infecting the country following the massacre in France.
Also on Tuesday, Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush suggested there should be a religious test for entry into the United States -- if you're Christian you're in, if you're Muslim you're out. How this test would be administred, the younger Bush failed to answer.
This type of overt bigotry was quickly reflected in the populace when on Wednesday a man interrupted a presentation for the building of a new mosque in Virginia, lambasting the speaker with racist abuse. “All Muslims are terrorists,” he shouted at Samer Shalaby, who was presenting the plans.
“I’ll do everything in my power to make sure that does not happen," he continued. "We don’t want it because you are terrorists. Every one of you are terrorists. I don’t care what you say. You can smile at me. You can say whatever you want, but every Muslim is a terrorist.” (audience applauds) Source
Indeed some people are oblivious. You don't think people dressed as suicide bombers after 9/11? They did. People even host parties for 'most offensive costumes'. I bet that blows your mind. People can wear things that they know are offensive and have a laugh about it. This "I bet if the thing in question offended right wing sensibilities" is amusing and pretty vapid.
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People are only "allowed" to say what they want if it's PC. Otherwise you're subject to mob mentality, and subsequently the loss of your job/schooling, reputation, and maybe even imprisonment.
I'm curious how far the "that offends me so get rid of it" mentality will actually go though before people realize it's just pandering to the people crying the loudest, and not actually helping anything.
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On November 20 2015 11:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Yeah I could imagine going as a US pilot covered in dead babies (dolls) would get the same people arguing "people are just whining that it hurts their feelings and it doesn't matter, they should just get over it" Surely you wouldn't see outrage on every right leaning site around talking about how the disrespect is unacceptable...
It really astonishes me how oblivious some folks can be.
So you start out with a giant exaggeration, don't actually address any of my or other people's points, shrug them off smugly, and decide that's a good post?
I think I made good points in a respectful and appropriate way, but you ignored them and talk about dead babies.
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On November 20 2015 11:37 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:34 YumYumGranola wrote:On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On November 20 2015 10:34 farvacola wrote:
I mean, let's be real, you can go ahead and dress like Blade with blackface. Just don't be surprised if you run into some resistance lol. I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech are offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. I'm confused by your point. Are you expecting that people will say things, but that they shouldn't be upset by it? People say things because they're upset by it. Speech is how you express yourself. I don't get how you're separating the two in your mind. Nothing has to be done about it. A hypothetical person might dress up in blackface. Hypothetical other people might think it's offensive and use their free speech to inform that person. The first person may choose to apologize and not wear the costume, or they may ignore those comments and instead engage in intellectual masturbation about the true meaning of offensiveness. It doesn't really matter either way. It seems we pretty much agree then. Your last paragraph sums up what I've been trying to say, which is that things are going to happen the way they happen so there is little use in getting oneself worked up about it. Can you do so? Yes. Does it do anything? No. So save yourself the stress of letting what someone wears or says upset you so much. That isn't to say you shouldn't let them know they are dolts and being offensive, but that is about all you can. Omni had it right, we all seem to agree on the basic points.
But again, the motivation for letting them know is that the offended party is personally affected by it. I mean, I get that not letting things get to you is perhaps a good life philosophy in general. But it is often suggested by certain groups of people in power (not saying you) in order to suppress or delegitimize opposing viewpoints or feelings. An example is the predominantly white opinion pieces on Fox News telling black people that racism isn't real or that they need to get over it, and then 30 seconds later losing their shit and calling the not-quite-Christmasy enough Starbucks coffee cup a literal attack on Christianity.
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On November 20 2015 11:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:42 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:38 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:31 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:27 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I suppose my point is that using makeup to be a black character is not the same as "blackface". Blackface became what it is because it was about the entire idea of "lol, black people are fucking silly and dumb", which is obviously really offensive and awful. And while yes, that is clearly a bad thing, people aren't thinking about the fact that other situations are using black makeup to convey something totally different. It's like saying the word "apple" is offensive because it contains the letter a, and you know what else contains the letter a? Faggot. And faggot is offensive. So let's just totally quarantine the letter a because we don't even wanna go CLOSE to the word faggot. Way too much baggage with the letter a. The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine. The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended." Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech is offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. We were not whining, we were discussing. You don't get to decided was offends others. I can see this is going nowhere. It is the same line you give for any such issue. I am aware that I don't get to decide what others find offensive. My question, for the nth time, is what do you think should be done. I already granted you that some costumes are offensive, we don't disagree there. I just don't understand how this 'discussion' you claim to be having is more than a whine when all you are saying is "this and that are offensive". What isn't being done now that should be happening in your mind. I would posit that there is nothing that should be done that doesn't already happen, so there is little point in getting all bent out of shape over it. I disagree, people should talk and have an understanding on what is and isn't offensive. You can't stop people from offending others, but the dialog that results can be less defensive and not laced with denial of the offense. But again we get into sticky territory here. Some people won't agree on what is offensive. I've seen some people say that men who dress as woman for Halloween is offensive, and I think that anyone who finds that offensive is a moron. If I dressed as a woman for whatever reason ( I wouldn't), and someone told me it offended them, I would think they are a moron no matter the reason for their offense, and I would not think I should change my costume. If someone dresses as a black character and paints their face black, I don't see that as being offensive. If someone dressed up in what we call 'blackface', then yes, that is offensive. And the response to that is "don't be an asshole". If someone is offended by what you do, you have two options: 1: Let them know you feel they shouldn't' be offended. 2: Say that you are sorry you offended them and that you wouldn't have done it if you knew it would have. I know which why I respond, but that is me.
Again it seems we don't disagree that much. My response would be a mixture of both. "I am sorry that you are offended as that was not my intent, but I think you may be a bit too sensitive" or something to that effect.
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On November 20 2015 11:48 killa_robot wrote:
People are only "allowed" to say what they want if it's PC. Otherwise you're subject to mob mentality, and subsequently the loss of your job/schooling, reputation, and maybe even imprisonment.
I'm curious how far the "that offends me so get rid of it" mentality will actually go though before people realize it's just pandering to the people crying the loudest, and not actually helping anything.
Are you offended by other people being offended? Aren't you just asking for the thing that offends you to be removed because it offends you?
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On November 20 2015 11:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:48 killa_robot wrote:
People are only "allowed" to say what they want if it's PC. Otherwise you're subject to mob mentality, and subsequently the loss of your job/schooling, reputation, and maybe even imprisonment.
I'm curious how far the "that offends me so get rid of it" mentality will actually go though before people realize it's just pandering to the people crying the loudest, and not actually helping anything. Are you offended by other people being offended? Aren't you just asking for the thing that offends you to be removed because it offends you?
No. The point is that one being offended isn't saying anything or adding anything to the discussion. That is a different point than "you being offended offends me". We want the offended people to add something of substance, not to just whine "I'm offended".
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On November 20 2015 11:49 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:47 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:42 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:38 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:31 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:27 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:25 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:21 Plansix wrote:On November 20 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote:On November 20 2015 11:09 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
The whole point of offensive is its based on someone else's rational and that doesn't invalidate it. There are no set rules that you can follow to assure you are "ok" with a costume. In a general sense, if you are thinking "this might offend someone" then it likely will because you thought of it. As long as you are willing to say "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this would offend you. If I was, I wouldn't have done it," not dig your heels in and become defensive, you should be fine.
The problem comes when people go the road of "I"m wearing this and it shouldn't offend you," with the full knowledge that it likely will. And that is where some colleges are at, expanded out across a lot of campus interactions. There was a black student interviewed recently that talked about white female students touching her hair without asking, because they had never "seen hair like that". And classically they could get upset if voiced her disapproval. The classic "I'm going to do/say this thing and you shouldn't be offended."
Edit: Ah, the classic Stephen Fry quote. The response to that is "You first". How do you square this with the idea of free speech? People are allowed to say or write any number of inflammatory things and this is protected speech. How is a costume any different? I agree costumes can be offensive to some and in poor taste, but that says nothing about the fact that people should still have the right to wear whatever costume they want. And the "You first"response makes no sense. I am aware of how free speech works. This isn't about the government stopping you from doing anything, so its not relevant to the matter at hand. We are not discussing that. We are discussion interactions between people. I know you are aware, that's why I am asking you why in your mind they should work differently. Why should people be able to say whatever they want, but not be allowed to wear whatever they want? Are they not both forms of expressing oneself? Again, my point is that you being offended about it does literally nothing. Social norms already dictate that certain costumes or certain speech is offensive and in poor taste and you can be sure that someone who says certain things or wears certain costumes will face consequences for doing so. I mean it just goes back to my original point. You lot are whining about some costumes being offensive, so my question is "so what", as in, what do you think should be done about it. We were not whining, we were discussing. You don't get to decided was offends others. I can see this is going nowhere. It is the same line you give for any such issue. I am aware that I don't get to decide what others find offensive. My question, for the nth time, is what do you think should be done. I already granted you that some costumes are offensive, we don't disagree there. I just don't understand how this 'discussion' you claim to be having is more than a whine when all you are saying is "this and that are offensive". What isn't being done now that should be happening in your mind. I would posit that there is nothing that should be done that doesn't already happen, so there is little point in getting all bent out of shape over it. I disagree, people should talk and have an understanding on what is and isn't offensive. You can't stop people from offending others, but the dialog that results can be less defensive and not laced with denial of the offense. But again we get into sticky territory here. Some people won't agree on what is offensive. I've seen some people say that men who dress as woman for Halloween is offensive, and I think that anyone who finds that offensive is a moron. If I dressed as a woman for whatever reason ( I wouldn't), and someone told me it offended them, I would think they are a moron no matter the reason for their offense, and I would not think I should change my costume. If someone dresses as a black character and paints their face black, I don't see that as being offensive. If someone dressed up in what we call 'blackface', then yes, that is offensive. And the response to that is "don't be an asshole". If someone is offended by what you do, you have two options: 1: Let them know you feel they shouldn't' be offended. 2: Say that you are sorry you offended them and that you wouldn't have done it if you knew it would have. I know which why I respond, but that is me. Again it seems we don't disagree that much. My response would be a mixture of both. "I am sorry that you are offended as that was not my intent, but I think you may be a bit too sensitive" or something to that effect.
But you're not really sorry. You don't value their feels or perspective, because if you did you would leave that last part off.
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EPT
