In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc.
Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards.
People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive.
But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one."
And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter.
I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that.
I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..."
Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:38 Introvert wrote: [quote]
I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't.
People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border
If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for.
Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited.
On August 09 2015 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote: Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online.
Enjoy
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
Calling all Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers seems to qualify.
He was referring to illegal immigrants, not all immigrants legal or illegal or all Mexican immigrants. Look up the crime statistics that a lot of these illegal immigrants bring, what he's saying is true. What kind of government allows a practically open border where illegal immigrants can come across and commit crime and murders that put its own citizens at risk?
All illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers.... ??? What the fuck.
And with that, I'm leaving this thread for a while, because my head is going to explode. I need a break from this.
If you have followed what he's been saying in his speeches, you'd know he doesn't mean all illegal immigrants. Instead of focusing on one poorly worded thing he said on illegal immigration, you should look at the bigger picture and realize that he has a good point. Many illegal immigrants bring a lot of unnecessary crime across to the US simply because the US government doesn't want to secure the border.
Is it a good point? Where's your/his proof of this?
Because all the immigration research I've ever read universally states that illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant communities, regardless of ethnicity, commit less violent crimes per capita than the general American population and have lower rates of incarceration.
People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive.
But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one."
And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter.
I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that.
I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..."
Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote: [quote]
People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border
If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for.
Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited.
On August 09 2015 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote: Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online.
Enjoy
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
Calling all Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers seems to qualify.
He was referring to illegal immigrants, not all immigrants legal or illegal or all Mexican immigrants. Look up the crime statistics that a lot of these illegal immigrants bring, what he's saying is true. What kind of government allows a practically open border where illegal immigrants can come across and commit crime and murders that put its own citizens at risk?
All illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers.... ??? What the fuck.
And with that, I'm leaving this thread for a while, because my head is going to explode. I need a break from this.
If you have followed what he's been saying in his speeches, you'd know he doesn't mean all illegal immigrants. Instead of focusing on one poorly worded thing he said on illegal immigration, you should look at the bigger picture and realize that he has a good point. Many illegal immigrants bring a lot of unnecessary crime across to the US simply because the US government doesn't want to secure the border.
Is it a good point? Where's your/his proof of this?
Because all the immigration research I've ever read universally states that illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant communities, regardless of ethnicity, commit less violent crimes per capita than the general American population and have lower rates of incarceration.
It's a myth.
His point was illegal immigrants commit crimes that would not be committed if they were not there. You supported that by saying they commit crimes, just at a lower rate.
People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive.
But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one."
And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter.
I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that.
I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..."
Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote: [quote]
People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border
If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for.
Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited.
On August 09 2015 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote: Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online.
Enjoy
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
Calling all Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers seems to qualify.
He was referring to illegal immigrants, not all immigrants legal or illegal or all Mexican immigrants. Look up the crime statistics that a lot of these illegal immigrants bring, what he's saying is true. What kind of government allows a practically open border where illegal immigrants can come across and commit crime and murders that put its own citizens at risk?
All illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers.... ??? What the fuck.
And with that, I'm leaving this thread for a while, because my head is going to explode. I need a break from this.
If you have followed what he's been saying in his speeches, you'd know he doesn't mean all illegal immigrants. Instead of focusing on one poorly worded thing he said on illegal immigration, you should look at the bigger picture and realize that he has a good point. Many illegal immigrants bring a lot of unnecessary crime across to the US simply because the US government doesn't want to secure the border.
Is it a good point? Where's your/his proof of this?
Because all the immigration research I've ever read universally states that illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant communities, regardless of ethnicity, commit less violent crimes per capita than the general American population and have lower rates of incarceration.
It's a myth.
That is completely false and ridiculous.
"Let’s take homicide as an example. The GAO estimates “criminal aliens” were arrested, convicted and incarcerated for 25,064 homicides. If non-citizens committed them over seven years, the annual rate would be 14.2 per 100,000 non-citizens. If illegal aliens committed them over four years, the annual rate would be 58.0 per 100,000 illegal aliens. Either way you compute, those are high rates.
By comparison, the FBI reports the murder rates for the entire U.S. from 2003 through 2009 varied from 5.0 to 5.8 per 100,000 inhabitants for an average rate of 5.5. To be clear, 5.5 is much lower than either 14.2 or 58.0.
Or look at the total number of homicides in those years. Per the FBI, there were 67,642 murders in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. Per the GAO, criminal aliens committed 25,064 of them. That means they committed 22% to 37% of all murders in the U.S., while being only 3.52% to 8.25% of the population.
Conclusion: criminal and illegal aliens commit murder at much higher rates than all inhabitants of the U.S. – at least 3 to 10 times higher."
On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that.
I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..."
Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for.
Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited.
[quote]
Enjoy
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
Calling all Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers seems to qualify.
He was referring to illegal immigrants, not all immigrants legal or illegal or all Mexican immigrants. Look up the crime statistics that a lot of these illegal immigrants bring, what he's saying is true. What kind of government allows a practically open border where illegal immigrants can come across and commit crime and murders that put its own citizens at risk?
All illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers.... ??? What the fuck.
And with that, I'm leaving this thread for a while, because my head is going to explode. I need a break from this.
If you have followed what he's been saying in his speeches, you'd know he doesn't mean all illegal immigrants. Instead of focusing on one poorly worded thing he said on illegal immigration, you should look at the bigger picture and realize that he has a good point. Many illegal immigrants bring a lot of unnecessary crime across to the US simply because the US government doesn't want to secure the border.
Is it a good point? Where's your/his proof of this?
Because all the immigration research I've ever read universally states that illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant communities, regardless of ethnicity, commit less violent crimes per capita than the general American population and have lower rates of incarceration.
It's a myth.
His point was illegal immigrants commit crimes that would not be committed if they were not there. You supported that by saying they commit crimes, just at a lower rate.
It's not a myth at all.
This is a horribly bad argument. Of course some illegal immigrants commit crimes. Some of any population commit crimes. Some illegal immigrants are also victims of crimes.
The only question that should be relevant to you is if illegal immigrants increase the chance that you will be a victim of a crime. Thus, the only reasonable question to ask is if they commit more crimes than other people.
On August 09 2015 03:54 Eskendereya wrote: [quote]
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote: [quote]
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
Calling all Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers seems to qualify.
He was referring to illegal immigrants, not all immigrants legal or illegal or all Mexican immigrants. Look up the crime statistics that a lot of these illegal immigrants bring, what he's saying is true. What kind of government allows a practically open border where illegal immigrants can come across and commit crime and murders that put its own citizens at risk?
All illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers.... ??? What the fuck.
And with that, I'm leaving this thread for a while, because my head is going to explode. I need a break from this.
If you have followed what he's been saying in his speeches, you'd know he doesn't mean all illegal immigrants. Instead of focusing on one poorly worded thing he said on illegal immigration, you should look at the bigger picture and realize that he has a good point. Many illegal immigrants bring a lot of unnecessary crime across to the US simply because the US government doesn't want to secure the border.
Is it a good point? Where's your/his proof of this?
Because all the immigration research I've ever read universally states that illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant communities, regardless of ethnicity, commit less violent crimes per capita than the general American population and have lower rates of incarceration.
It's a myth.
His point was illegal immigrants commit crimes that would not be committed if they were not there. You supported that by saying they commit crimes, just at a lower rate.
It's not a myth at all.
This is a horribly bad argument. Of course some illegal immigrants commit crimes. Some of any population commit crimes. Some illegal immigrants are also victims of crimes.
The only question that should be relevant to you is if illegal immigrants increase the chance that you will be a victim of a crime. Thus, the only reasonable question to ask is if they commit more crimes than other people.
On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that.
I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..."
Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for.
Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited.
[quote]
Enjoy
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
Calling all Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers seems to qualify.
He was referring to illegal immigrants, not all immigrants legal or illegal or all Mexican immigrants. Look up the crime statistics that a lot of these illegal immigrants bring, what he's saying is true. What kind of government allows a practically open border where illegal immigrants can come across and commit crime and murders that put its own citizens at risk?
All illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers.... ??? What the fuck.
And with that, I'm leaving this thread for a while, because my head is going to explode. I need a break from this.
If you have followed what he's been saying in his speeches, you'd know he doesn't mean all illegal immigrants. Instead of focusing on one poorly worded thing he said on illegal immigration, you should look at the bigger picture and realize that he has a good point. Many illegal immigrants bring a lot of unnecessary crime across to the US simply because the US government doesn't want to secure the border.
Is it a good point? Where's your/his proof of this?
Because all the immigration research I've ever read universally states that illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant communities, regardless of ethnicity, commit less violent crimes per capita than the general American population and have lower rates of incarceration.
It's a myth.
That is completely false and ridiculous.
"Let’s take homicide as an example. The GAO estimates “criminal aliens” were arrested, convicted and incarcerated for 25,064 homicides. If non-citizens committed them over seven years, the annual rate would be 14.2 per 100,000 non-citizens. If illegal aliens committed them over four years, the annual rate would be 58.0 per 100,000 illegal aliens. Either way you compute, those are high rates.
By comparison, the FBI reports the murder rates for the entire U.S. from 2003 through 2009 varied from 5.0 to 5.8 per 100,000 inhabitants for an average rate of 5.5. To be clear, 5.5 is much lower than either 14.2 or 58.0.
Or look at the total number of homicides in those years. Per the FBI, there were 67,642 murders in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. Per the GAO, criminal aliens committed 25,064 of them. That means they committed 22% to 37% of all murders in the U.S., while being only 3.52% to 8.25% of the population.
Conclusion: criminal and illegal aliens commit murder at much higher rates than all inhabitants of the U.S. – at least 3 to 10 times higher."
The "source" for these percentages, randomly assigns years to the commited crimes, e.g. "If non-citizens committed them over seven years..." and "If illegal aliens committed them over four years..." to make up their calculations.
The GAO study says this:
Our analysis includes criminal aliens with arrests dating from August 1955 to April 2010. About 90 percent of the arrests in our study population occurred after 1990.
So these homicides didn't occur over four or seven years, but over 55 years.
On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that.
I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..."
Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:
On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for.
Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited.
[quote]
Enjoy
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
Calling all Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers seems to qualify.
He was referring to illegal immigrants, not all immigrants legal or illegal or all Mexican immigrants. Look up the crime statistics that a lot of these illegal immigrants bring, what he's saying is true. What kind of government allows a practically open border where illegal immigrants can come across and commit crime and murders that put its own citizens at risk?
All illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers.... ??? What the fuck.
And with that, I'm leaving this thread for a while, because my head is going to explode. I need a break from this.
If you have followed what he's been saying in his speeches, you'd know he doesn't mean all illegal immigrants. Instead of focusing on one poorly worded thing he said on illegal immigration, you should look at the bigger picture and realize that he has a good point. Many illegal immigrants bring a lot of unnecessary crime across to the US simply because the US government doesn't want to secure the border.
Is it a good point? Where's your/his proof of this?
Because all the immigration research I've ever read universally states that illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant communities, regardless of ethnicity, commit less violent crimes per capita than the general American population and have lower rates of incarceration.
It's a myth.
That is completely false and ridiculous.
"Let’s take homicide as an example. The GAO estimates “criminal aliens” were arrested, convicted and incarcerated for 25,064 homicides. If non-citizens committed them over seven years, the annual rate would be 14.2 per 100,000 non-citizens. If illegal aliens committed them over four years, the annual rate would be 58.0 per 100,000 illegal aliens. Either way you compute, those are high rates.
By comparison, the FBI reports the murder rates for the entire U.S. from 2003 through 2009 varied from 5.0 to 5.8 per 100,000 inhabitants for an average rate of 5.5. To be clear, 5.5 is much lower than either 14.2 or 58.0.
Or look at the total number of homicides in those years. Per the FBI, there were 67,642 murders in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. Per the GAO, criminal aliens committed 25,064 of them. That means they committed 22% to 37% of all murders in the U.S., while being only 3.52% to 8.25% of the population.
Conclusion: criminal and illegal aliens commit murder at much higher rates than all inhabitants of the U.S. – at least 3 to 10 times higher."
The flaw in the americanthinker analysis is that number of arrest records for illegal immigrants related to homicide is not equal the number of homicides committed by the population, as individuals in their sample could very easily have multiple arrest records for the same homicide. It's probably related, likely even directly related, but incredibly unlikely to be 1:1.
I suspect this is part of why relatively few people use the data for that type of analysis.
and nobody uses the analysis by americanthinker because it's made by a joke tabloid piece of shit
On August 09 2015 06:54 Eskendereya wrote: You've taken that little piece of out context.
"Our analysis includes criminal aliens with arrests dating from August 1955 to April 2010. About 90 percent of the arrests in our study population occurred after 1990."
That is referring to incarceration and arrest statistics. That is completely separate to the homicide statistics the article is referring to.
The "homicide statistics" are taken from a table listing arrest offences, not actual homicides.
%90 after 1990. So saying it occurred over 55 years without pointing out %90 of it occurred after 1990 doesn't quite tell the whole story. This is only referring to arrests and incarcerations.
The point I was trying to make was illegal immigrants commit crime at a much higher rate than natural born citizens.
"Let’s look at a few numbers. You haven’t seen them in the New York Times, Atlanta Constitution, or the Miami Herald, nor have they been featured on NBC Nightly news or CNN. So, the average American is blissfully unaware of them.
Between 2008 and 2014, 40% of all murder convictions in Florida were criminal aliens. In New York it was 34% and Arizona 17.8%.
During those years, criminal aliens accounted for 38% of all murder convictions in the five states of California, Texas, Arizona, Florida and New York, while illegal aliens constitute only 5.6% of the total population in those states.
That 38% represents 7,085 murders out of the total of 18,643.
That 5.6% figure for the average illegal alien population in those five states comes from US Census estimates. We know the real number is double that official estimate. Yet, even if it is 11%, it is still shameful that the percentage of murders by criminal aliens is more than triple the illegal population in those states.
Those astounding numbers were compiled by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) using official Department of Justice data on criminal aliens in the nation’s correctional system."
On August 09 2015 05:19 lastpuritan wrote: I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. In my amateur opinion, Bernie Sanders is correct about open borders being a Koch wet dream. That the far-left also wants open borders is regardless. It is a question of outcome, intent, and context. Different intents can pursue the same means if they believe the outcome will be in their favor. Depending on the context, both of them can be right at different times; but, for now, one of them just has to be wrong. When destroying well-paying industry at home to chase cheap, unregulated labor abroad isn't enough, you can let the cheap, unregulated labor come to you. In both instances, you play the working class against itself, and their consciousness becomes instead one of nationalism -- another end-game of the far-right. The idea of international labor is dead if workers in one country are primarily concerned with protecting their piddling slice of the pie from poorer workers somewhere else. One mission of the corporate class is to profit financially from cheap labor while profiting politically from the xenophobia it produces.
It strikes me as a dangerous game, because, if the nationalism goes too far, it will produce protectionist policies, perhaps via a nationalist candidate or movement that, like a marionette, grows too big for its strings. Protectionism was the old weapon of choice before the corporate class went global. Companies no longer need borders to protect their profits -- borders are in the way of profits -- but workers, in an odd way, do need borders. An irony for me to study further; along with the essential question: how can borders be transcended in a way conducive to the happiness of the working class? Under a neoliberal economy, both nationalism and protectionism have to be shoved aside for talk of unity, deregulation, and the kind of globalization for the 1% that leftists do not like. And then we come full circle. The far-left believes in globalization, as does the far-right, but they believe in it in different contexts, and want it at different times in the hopes it will achieve different things. So if someone on the left says they oppose open borders, do not confuse that for opposing the rights of immigrants to travel and work (though, don't assume of them any sense of internationalism, either). In the ever-shifting dialectic of economies, the rights of immigrants to travel and work, without the necessary privileges and protections of the nation-state, are but rights to further exploitation, striding fully with the xenophobic paranoia the corporate class at once wishes to foment and control -- distinctions I imagine they would start a war over.
The open borders of the left are ones which afford equal protection under the law. The open borders of the right look very, very different.
If both the Koch and Bernie Sanders desire to "open borders" it just means that they are both liberals. You can be a liberal from an economic standpoint or from a political standpoint, but in practice the both are oftentime really similar - which also explains the inhability of the "far left" to clearly oppose capitalism (the term left was a joke and an insult in Marx's familly, as pointed out by Jenny Marx's letters).
2004-2008, 249,000 aliens (illegal and legal) were convicted of the following crimes:
25,064 murders (%30 of all murders in the US) 69,929 sex crimes 213,047 assaults 14,788 kidnappings
And that's in 4 years alone.
At 6:21 it shows:
2008-2014 illegal aliens committed an average of 428 murders a year with the statewide rate being 1,228 a year meaning illegal aliens committed about %33 of all murders in those 6 years while being anywhere from %5 to %10 of the total population (video says %5).
Would anyone like to explain this one? Still think Trump is full of shit when he's talking about illegal immigration crime in the US? Feel free to watch the whole video.
You're assuming that the conviction rate against illegal immigrants in the US legal system is identical to that of US citizens. That's quite an assumption you make there.
2004-2008, 249,000 aliens (illegal and legal) were convicted of the following crimes:
25,064 murders (%30 of all murders in the US) 69,929 sex crimes 213,047 assaults 14,788 kidnappings
And that's in 4 years alone.
At 6:21 it shows:
2008-2014 illegal aliens committed an average of 428 murders a year with the statewide rate being 1,228 a year meaning illegal aliens committed about %33 of all murders in those 6 years while being anywhere from %5 to %10 of the total population (video says %5).
Would anyone like to explain this one? Still think Trump is full of shit when he's talking about illegal immigration crime in the US? Feel free to watch the whole video.
Those first stats all come from the GAO report table two (page 21) which, again, does not count how many convictions occurred but rather estimates how many arrests occurred amongst the incarcerated population it had access to.
His presentation is wrong.
Most of this stuff seems just based on misinterpretation of a GAO table by people who have an agenda. Do you even question what you read at all?
Edit: In fact, I'm pretty sure everything you've posted is pretty much based on that one GAO report that wasn't even designed to answer the questions being asked.
2004-2008, 249,000 aliens (illegal and legal) were convicted of the following crimes:
25,064 murders (%30 of all murders in the US) 69,929 sex crimes 213,047 assaults 14,788 kidnappings
And that's in 4 years alone.
At 6:21 it shows:
2008-2014 illegal aliens committed an average of 428 murders a year with the statewide rate being 1,228 a year meaning illegal aliens committed about %33 of all murders in those 6 years while being anywhere from %5 to %10 of the total population (video says %5).
Would anyone like to explain this one? Still think Trump is full of shit when he's talking about illegal immigration crime in the US? Feel free to watch the whole video.
Those first stats all come from the GAO report table two (page 21) which, again, does not count how many convictions occurred but rather estimates how many arrests occurred amongst the incarcerated population it had access to.
His presentation is wrong.
Most of this stuff seems just based on misinterpretation of a GAO table by people who have an agenda. Do you even question what you read at all?
Edit: In fact, I'm pretty sure everything you've posted is pretty much based on that one GAO report that wasn't even designed to answer the questions being asked.
Do you? Apparently, you didn't. They were convictions and no, his presentation is not wrong, you are.
"Now here is where the data get dicey: how do we convert these numbers to rates so that we can compare illegal aliens and non-citizens to other groups, such as U.S. citizens or inhabitants? We have to look at how the GAO determined those estimates.
“To determine the type of offenses for which criminal aliens were convicted, we analyzed data from the U.S. Sentencing Commission on federal convictions of criminal aliens from fiscal years 2003 through 2009 and conviction data from five states – Arizona, California, Florida, New York, and Texas – from fiscal years 2005 through 2008.” - GAO
So now we have an apples and oranges problem. The federal data cover seven years and all non-citizens. The state and local data cover four years and illegal aliens only (and only those reported via SCAAP).
Let’s take homicide as an example. The GAO estimates “criminal aliens” were arrested, convicted and incarcerated for 25,064 homicides. If non-citizens committed them over seven years, the annual rate would be 14.2 per 100,000 non-citizens. If illegal aliens committed them over four years, the annual rate would be 58.0 per 100,000 illegal aliens. Either way you compute, those are high rates.
By comparison, the FBI reports the murder rates for the entire U.S. from 2003 through 2009 varied from 5.0 to 5.8 per 100,000 inhabitants for an average rate of 5.5. To be clear, 5.5 is much lower than either 14.2 or 58.0.
Or look at the total number of homicides in those years. Per the FBI, there were 67,642 murders in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. Per the GAO, criminal aliens committed 25,064 of them. That means they committed 22% to 37% of all murders in the U.S., while being only 3.52% to 8.25% of the population.
Conclusion: criminal and illegal aliens commit murder at much higher rates than all inhabitants of the U.S. – at least 3 to 10 times higher.
And I believe these are low-end estimates. For one, murder is almost always handled at the state and local level, not the federal level. So the GAO’s homicide data are skewed toward the state and local data, which cover fewer years (four) and a smaller population (illegals only). The Washington Post states that “Federal prisoners made up 10 percent of the total incarcerated populations in the United States in 2013.”
OK, let’s assume that 90% of the crimes listed by the GAO (other than immigration itself) were committed by SCAAP persons in state and local institutions. That would mean illegal aliens committed 22,558 murders over four years. That is a rate of 5,639 per year, or over 15 per day. (For reference, Rep. Steve King reported a figure of 12 per day. A sheriffs’ association is reported to estimate it at 25 per day. I don’t know how reliable these values are, but they are not totally out of line with the GAO’s data.)
That would give a murder rate for illegal aliens of 52 per 100,000 (5,639 in a population of 10.8 million) – about 10 times that of U.S. citizens."
This all goes back to the point who commits crime at a higher rate, natural born citizens or illegal immigrants. Preposterous to think people immigrating illegally, ILLEGALLY, follow the law more than natural born citizens and commit less crime.
WASHINGTON -- The CIA is willing to overlook some of its shadier partners’ human rights records if they can still get the goods, according to agency Director John Brennan.
In a letter sent to a trio of lawmakers and provided to The Huffington Post, Brennan expanded on the agency’s controversial relationships with less-than-desirable characters, offering an unusually candid glimpse into the spies' liaison partnerships.
The letter, a response to Sens. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) Martin Heinrich (D-N.M.) and Mazie Hirono (D-Hawaii), sought to clarify public remarks made by Brennan earlier this year. The unclassified response was dated Thursday.
"While we neither condone nor participate in activities that violate human rights standards, we do maintain cooperative liaison relationships with a variety of intelligence and security services around the world, some of whose constituent entities have engaged in human rights abuses. We strive to identify and, where possible, avoid working with individuals whom we believe to be responsible for such abuses," the letter says. "In some cases, we have decided to continue those relationships, despite unacceptable behavior, because of the critical intelligence those services provide, including information that allows us to disrupt terrorist plotting against the United States."
At a rare public appearance in March at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York City, Brennan said the U.S. would not work with liaison services that committed human rights abuses. The remarks came just days after news reports revealed that U.S.-trained Iraqi security forces were being investigated for horrendous war crimes, like torturing prisoners and executing civilians.
On August 09 2015 09:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So they disrupt the one candidate who marched with MLK, protested segregated housing?
There were a lot of people debating "PC" earlier. The Black Lives Matter movement is a perfect example of why PC has nothing to do with respect or being an asshole. Those people are clearly assholes and/or not showing respect, but calling them on it is not PC, but what they are doing is PC. Moreover, if you point to stats/etc that don't back up their and/or contradict their movement, that is also not PC. That its a one way street is a hallmark of PC-ness.
I'd contrast that with something like "Gamergate" (which I don't know much about substantively), where media basically wholeheartedly accepted the narrative of one side, and probably due to ignorance of the internet, basically smeared the whole movement due to a few Twitter threats and a doxxing. Things that happen to people like Thorin, Liquid112, etc all the time, and they take steps to avoid it (which these victims did not, and possibly intentionally did not).
EPT
