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So, to sum up this thread, we have:
Group A - Na'Vi fans, who like them for their good values, such as
+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2012 19:44 Kipsate wrote:
Why Dendi is popular should be easy
He is a good player
He is young(he is pretty much a kid, which is awesome).
He is likeable(good personality, dances etc)
He plays the flashy role(solo mid)
He is slightly insane(makes big dives, big plays, sometimes dies for it, goes blink dagger force staff on like every hero)
He plays on Na'vi, the only non-Asian team to make it far.
Na'vi have a strong history of dominance in Dota 2.
Na'vi plays very aggressive and with interesting picks(this is not on Dendi but it does make their games in general more attractive to the general public.
On September 03 2012 11:06 hacklebeast wrote:
For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
You guys keep arguing your points, but what you don't understand is, everyone gets it already. I'm a Na'Vi (and Zenith) fan, you're a Na'Vi fan, most of us here and in the audience are Na'Vi fans. What you're failing to understand is...
Group B - Na'Vi fans, who are simply supporting them for retarded reasons such as
+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. ^ If you look closely at this idiotic post, you can see the poster used the word "we", as if ALL Na'Vi fans share the same reason he does, when in fact, we don't.
Also known as "Chinese DotA so boring lolol". Completely forgetting games like Na'Vi's 16 minute GG to iG, or LGD vs iG hitting over 60 kills in 40 minutes, or the several Xboct AM farm games, just because the players are "chinks".
/sarcasm on
Guess what, a Chinese team won. Oh, and they completely outplayed Na'Vi. So you know what that means? DotA2 sucks as a spectator/e-Sport game, where the "boring" teams win. Mind blown!
/sarcasm off
Group C - The Na'Vi anti-fans
Get over yourself. Close to half the viewers for TI2 were from China (275000 outside China, 500000 when including China). I'm pretty sure iG has a lot of support on their home soil. Yeah, TI2 was hosted Seattle, sucks for you, but get over it because I'm pretty sure that million dollar check was worth the boos that iG got. Team Liquid is an English forum, so if you want to hate on Na'Vi, I'm sure your thread will be much more appreciated on a .cn website.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 02:27 Skiblet wrote:
I really can't see with people thinking 'Dendi' or Na'Vi when dota is mentioned, don't we need super popular players and teams to promote esports? Its like if someone just blindly said MVP is the best player in the world even if they only played starcraft casually and didn't really watch. Are you offended by that? do you always feel the need to argue with that person? If you do then you've got some serious issues. You can't come with your 'hipster' attitude saying there are way better chinese players/teams that people don't know nearly as well as they know Dendi or Na'Vi
Just let people love who they love and just face the fact that Dendi IS the most popular Dota 2 player, and on top of that is EXCELLENT at the game, and streams almost every single day. I see no problem with a player who loves dota, and practices his ass off in it as a 'celebrity' in the dota community
Yeah... stop trying to convince Na'Vi fans that Na'Vi isn't the best, because they don't give a rats ass.
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On September 04 2012 03:22 adi_hsd wrote:
even though i think dendi is overrated he was their best player this international. his rubik was absolutely insane in the winner bracket games.
dota is a game where being pumped up elevates your game alot. imagine if your teammates does some insane move in a teamfight it makes your whole team go insane over it. that gives you alot of confidence and you play better. just imagine being one of na'vi knowing that whatever happens during pick stages dendi is there mid as an anchor in case anything goes wrong.
?
Dendi's Rubick was great, but alot of people forget how well LOH was doing with virtually no help when he was left on an island in the offlanes. LOH won at least 2 seperate games for Navi alone on Enigma, and contributed far more on a consistent basis than Dendi did the entire time. He was the literal backbone of Navi, and without him I doubt I see them going very far. Puppey when he was on a jungle was capable of literally taking over games by himself. Dendi really only had a couple of really big plays, but LOH not only had multiple instances of big plays, he also was far more solid and consistent than Dendi. There were at least 6 separate games where Dendi not only lost mid, he was getting crushed until he got help from his team.
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On September 04 2012 03:24 Xpace wrote:So, to sum up this thread, we have: Group A - Na'Vi fans, who like them for their good values, such as+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2012 19:44 Kipsate wrote:
Why Dendi is popular should be easy
He is a good player
He is young(he is pretty much a kid, which is awesome).
He is likeable(good personality, dances etc)
He plays the flashy role(solo mid)
He is slightly insane(makes big dives, big plays, sometimes dies for it, goes blink dagger force staff on like every hero)
He plays on Na'vi, the only non-Asian team to make it far.
Na'vi have a strong history of dominance in Dota 2.
Na'vi plays very aggressive and with interesting picks(this is not on Dendi but it does make their games in general more attractive to the general public.
On September 03 2012 11:06 hacklebeast wrote:
For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing. You guys keep arguing your points, but what you don't understand is, everyone gets it already. I'm a Na'Vi (and Zenith) fan, you're a Na'Vi fan, most of us here and in the audience are Na'Vi fans. What you're failing to understand is... Group B - Na'Vi fans, who are simply supporting them for retarded reasons such as+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. ^ If you look closely at this idiotic post, you can see the poster used the word "we", as if ALL Na'Vi fans share the same reason he does, when in fact, we don't.Also known as "Chinese DotA so boring lolol". Completely forgetting games like Na'Vi's 16 minute GG to iG, or LGD vs iG hitting over 60 kills in 40 minutes, or the several Xboct AM farm games, just because the players are "chinks". /sarcasm on Guess what, a Chinese team won. Oh, and they completely outplayed Na'Vi. So you know what that means? DotA2 sucks as a spectator/e-Sport game, where the "boring" teams win. Mind blown! /sarcasm off Group C - The Na'Vi anti-fansGet over yourself. Close to half the viewers for TI2 were from China (275000 outside China, 500000 when including China). I'm pretty sure iG has a lot of support on their home soil. Yeah, TI2 was hosted Seattle, sucks for you, but get over it because I'm pretty sure that million dollar check was worth the boos that iG got. Team Liquid is an English forum, so if you want to hate on Na'Vi, I'm sure your thread will be much more appreciated on a .cn website. + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 02:27 Skiblet wrote:
I really can't see with people thinking 'Dendi' or Na'Vi when dota is mentioned, don't we need super popular players and teams to promote esports? Its like if someone just blindly said MVP is the best player in the world even if they only played starcraft casually and didn't really watch. Are you offended by that? do you always feel the need to argue with that person? If you do then you've got some serious issues. You can't come with your 'hipster' attitude saying there are way better chinese players/teams that people don't know nearly as well as they know Dendi or Na'Vi
Just let people love who they love and just face the fact that Dendi IS the most popular Dota 2 player, and on top of that is EXCELLENT at the game, and streams almost every single day. I see no problem with a player who loves dota, and practices his ass off in it as a 'celebrity' in the dota community Yeah... stop trying to convince Na'Vi fans that Na'Vi isn't the best, because they don't give a rats ass.
Nice post. Yeah basically I was just a little sad when LGD and iG had basically 0 support from the audience. Sure Dendi's Rubick plays were super impressive, Puppey's drafting was awesome, and LoH had some amazing support play but I was more impressed with LGD's ridiculous undefeated streak and it's just sad that the entire audience was biased against the Chinese teams. But anyways, amazing play from all the teams and this was probably the most entertaining E-sports weekend for me ever. This tournament was fucking amazing.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
I don't understand this thread. What are you trying to say, you have to cheer for both teams equally? That's some class A socialism right there.
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Your thread about navi fanboys felt like a jealous why don't you support the team and players I am a fanboy off QQ. Who are you to tell people who to root for?;o
But Xspace pretty much hit the nail on the coffin. A big part of Dendi's popularity revolves around the story lines, fun to watch play style, and his likeable personality. So even if someone is better than Dendi but is boring otherwise, he still may have less fans just like in ALL other sports (otherwise ppl would root for only 1 team/player per sport, right?).
Also Dendi is not only more popular in the West than chinese players, he's more popular than any other Western player as well, so it's not simply a race bias thing.
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On September 04 2012 04:54 ahswtini wrote:
I don't understand this thread. What are you trying to say, you have to cheer for both teams equally? That's some class A socialism right there.
I think the OP mainly wants people to respect the Chinese scene especially considering that historically the Chinese scene has been remarkably stronger outside of a very few exceptions. You could tell from the crowd, spectators, shoutcasters/commentators, etc. that there was a huge amount of bias that was borderline disrespect for both IG and LGD.
People saying things like Dendi being the best player in the world when he isn't even the best solo mid in the tournament (430 at times utterly crapped on Dendi) annoy people. People saying things like XBOCT being a better farmer than Sylar, Zhou, and Burning when he is by far the weakest player on his team is pretty ridiculous. It's when people have a strong disregard for the high skill and discipline of the Chinese teams (such as their safe conservative style) that it becomes disrespectful.
It's actually very funny too, because the Koreans in Starcraft never have a huge problem with this, even when they practically couldn't speak much English at all. Flash, Jaedong, and other KesPA pros for example never really interacted with the non-Korean fans all that much at all up until VERY recently, and yet people have a ton of respect and admiration for their skill, despite the fact that there's no real connection. MVP for example is a HUGE fan favorite, and yet he plays a very safe and conservative style. He doesn't even talk all that much English from what I remember, and is actually not all that great in front of crowds for the most part. Yet no one in SC2 ever disrespects MVP to the level that quite a few DotA fans do in relation to the Chinese vs Foreign fan interaction.
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^ idk where you are getting this from? a few uninformed posts here and there or a few excited posts from fans, which I don't see anything wrong with. Again, same happens in other sports. I used to root for my soccer team chanting how they are the best even though I knew they wouldn't win the championship.
I got a sense that Chinese teams had and got plenty of respect. Even being knew to the scene, I quickly realized that the Chinese are the teams to beat and didn't think Navi would even go this far, because I read everywhere about how strong Chinese teams are. Only happened because the Chinese were given due respect.
I heard chants for Chinese teams and people clapping for good plays for them as well. Yes, not as much as Na'Vi, but it was still there (though didn't watch final with sound). I heard only 1 major booo and even that was directed more at Naga ult than anything else.
Sure majority of the crowd cheered for their favorites a lot more, but it wasn't like they completely shit on everything other teams did. get over it
edit:
and to be frank, navi did beat DK, IG, and LGN, and then lost to IG of course. But they did go 3-1 against Chinese power houses in the play offs of the most important tournament of the year. So all this talk about how Chinese are sooo much better and deserve much more respect than Na'Vi is in my opinion even more biased, silly and disrespectful to Na'Vi. You are basing this on what? Their 2nd finish at the biggest tourney in Dota history, ahead of LGN and DK, and even taking a series off the champs?
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Obvious fanbait thread. Players don't draw people into a game because they're necessarily "better" than anyone else. Personality is almost as big of a factor, if not bigger, as player skill when it comes to gaining fans. Dendi's hilarious, good-looking, and a great guy in general (IIRC, he bought a Chinese team dinner).
It's kind of weird to ask this kind of question on Teamliquid. If anyone's familiar with the separation between eastern and western scenes, it should be Starcraft fans.
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Lol this thread is like a melting pot of people trying to justify their racism. Obviously people identify better with people similar to them: whether it be color, nationality, or playstyle. There's nothing wrong with cheering for a team because they are similar to you. Look at the 2012 Olympics in Great Britain this year. The cheers for USA and Great Britain were much greater than the cheers for the Chinese or other Asian teams. It's because the British are more easily able to identify with the Americans due to a common culture. Look at the NBA, where Jeremy Lin's sudden appearance triggered a massive influx of Asian fans, many who were never fans of the sport before he came along. Or just look at college where people tend to congregate in cliques of their own race. This is just how the world works and there's nothing wrong with it.
It's silly to justify racism by saying stuff like, "Chinese teams are boring and play boring compositions" when teams like Navi played "4 protect 1 comps" as their bread and butter. And to everyone saying that the Chinese have no personality, did you not see Zhou jumping onto Puppey, who lifted him up after IG won in the grandfinals?
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On September 04 2012 05:07 iokke wrote:
^ idk where you are getting this from? a few uninformed posts here and there or a few excited posts from fans, which I don't see anything wrong with. Again, same happens in other sports. I used to root for my soccer team chanting how they are the best even though I knew they wouldn't win the championship.
I got a sense that Chinese teams had and got plenty of respect. Even being knew to the scene, I quickly realized that the Chinese are the teams to beat and didn't think Navi would even go this far, because I read everywhere about how strong Chinese teams are. Only happened because the Chinese were given due respect.
I heard chants for Chinese teams and people clapping for good plays for them as well. Yes, not as much as Na'Vi, but it was still there (though didn't watch final with sound). I heard only 1 major booo and even that was directed more at Naga ult than anything else.
Sure majority of the crowd cheered for their favorites a lot more, but it wasn't like they completely shit on everything other teams did. get over it
The commentator bias was pretty clear, especially from Tobi. The crowd was constantly booing IG/LGD when they would use Naga Siren to escape with, and were also booing when IG/LGD would run a 4 protect 1 strategy with someone like AM or Morph. And yet when Na'vi ran the exact same thing, people where cheering when they would display XBOCT's gold values, or Navi's overall EXP/Gold rates. Yet when Sylar's graph, Burning's graph, or Zhou's graph gets put up, no one says anything, no one claps, etc. etc. That's just the commentators and crowds, who in all honesty weren't that bad; they however did show an obvious bias that was borderline rude. They didn't even clap when IG was making a really big turn around against LGD in g1 at all, and hardly anyone watched the epic EHOME vs Orange match with a ridiculously huge Tiny.
It was so bad that 2GD and the analyst booth had to remind both the commentators and fans to not be disrespectful to the Chinese teams, because it was becoming blatantly obvious what was going on.
When we shift it to the online forums, it just becomes 300x worse. Azarkon totally just flame baited everyone in the LR thread, and there were plenty of other Navi "fanboys" that were dick riding harder than I could even imagine. People saying 430 overrated and a subpar mid (LOL), or saying Dendi was ridiculously beyond anyone else. That was just on the TL, where the moderators actually make an attempt to curb the ridiculous behavior. On GosuGamers.net, JoinDota, PlayDota, Reddit, etc. the amount of Navi dick riding was beyond me; at that point it wasn't even because they were fans of Na'vi (as clearly quite a few of them were fans of CLG, EG, Mouz, or coL), but because they simply didn't like the Chinese teams at all, and quite clearly didn't respect them one bit.
To say that there was a clear bias against Chinese teams isn't far from the truth at all. It WAS the truth, and it happened right in front of everyone. This wasn't even like SC2 where the crowd would cheer for their fan favorites, but still would be polite and recognize big plays from the opposing player. The crowd basically showed almost zero recognition for some really huge plays by YYF's Darkseer in the grand final, or Faith's ridiculous Disrupter play in G3, or some of the great Chinese vs Chinese games we had in the LB that were much more than just farm fests (only TWO games were farm fests, and really those games were decided pretty early on when the losing team gave up pretty big map control).
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Idk I was bored out of my mind at work so i read most of the LR for LGD/Na've games and while I saw lots of excited fans posts, I did not see anything disrespectful or biased beyond the biases of being a fan.
I also saw plenty of times when Chinese Naga used ulti and crowd didn't boo. But again, none of this matters. All this boils down to the fact that Navi had many more fans and much more reaction + support, as there should be for the fan favorite team :o
I guess if you wanted to push the argument you could argue that if it was let say mtw vs navi in the finals, crowd reactions would be different. Probably you would be right, as im assuming Na'Vi was seen as foreigner hope too so there was racial/regional bias because non-asian fans can identify with them more. But honestly I still think Na'vi plays would get more cheers out of the fans, you'd still get Navi the best posts etc.
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On September 04 2012 05:23 iokke wrote:
Idk I was bored out of my mind at work so i read most of the LR for LGD/Na've games and while I saw lots of excited fans posts, I did not see anything disrespectful or biased beyond the biases of being a fan.
I also saw plenty of times when Chinese Naga used ulti and crowd didn't boo. But again, none of this matters. All this boils down to the fact that Navi had many more fans and much more reaction + support, as there should be for the fan favorite team :o
LOL.
Please reread the LR from about WBs day 1/2 and you'll see plenty of idiotic posts that were complete flame baits. There were also people that were saying 430 overrated mid, and was average at best. Azarkon for example said that "Navi was MINDFUCKING everyone in the prelims and PURPOSELY lost games." That was just one fanboy. You haven't seen the other ones on other forums. There were like 15 page threads on JoinDota about how the Chinese did not deserve to be invited to The International 2 back in May.
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racism is racism; even in esports where it's not nearly as bad as real sports/real world.
grow some skin fellow chinese fans, who cares if commentators are biased and the crowd cheers only for non chinese teams. plus theres chinese commentators who are much more knowledgeable about dota.
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On September 04 2012 05:30 aintz wrote:
racism is racism; even in esports where it's not nearly as bad as real sports/real world.
grow some skin fellow chinese fans, who cares if commentators are biased and the crowd cheers only for non chinese teams. plus theres chinese commentators who are much more knowledgeable about dota.
If the Chinese fans have to put up with it, then the Western fans should stop trying to justify their racism. Racism is racism.
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On September 04 2012 05:26 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 05:23 iokke wrote:
Idk I was bored out of my mind at work so i read most of the LR for LGD/Na've games and while I saw lots of excited fans posts, I did not see anything disrespectful or biased beyond the biases of being a fan.
I also saw plenty of times when Chinese Naga used ulti and crowd didn't boo. But again, none of this matters. All this boils down to the fact that Navi had many more fans and much more reaction + support, as there should be for the fan favorite team :o
LOL. Please reread the LR from about WBs day 1/2 and you'll see plenty of idiotic posts that were complete flame baits. There were also people that were saying 430 overrated mid, and was average at best. Azarkon for example said that "Navi was MINDFUCKING everyone in the prelims and PURPOSELY lost games." That was just one fanboy. You haven't seen the other ones on other forums. There were like 15 page threads on JoinDota about how the Chinese did not deserve to be invited to The International 2 back in May.
let's see how work goes today;)
Um so some ppl were trolling and saying stupid shit, same goes for the Chinese teams. I saw ppl post that Chinese threw games to Na'Vi, so what?
again, i'm new to the scene, but from what I understand most people knew little of Chinese teams and Chinese powerhouses did not reemerge strongly till a few months ago? If think I even listened to a pro interview saying they did not worry about Chinese until a couple of months ago they saw how strong they are. If this is the case it's completely understandable that people in May thought those teams did not deserve the invited (especially if they were discussing a chance for them to qualify instead or smth). But I might be completely wrong here.
Anyway I want to play a little dota before work, was good chatting to you, though you really discouraged me from checking out other forums which I was gonna do to learn more about the game lol. Hope TL strategy section grows quickly;)
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This title of this thread is akin to asking "why so many Lebron/Heat fanboys?"
I'm sorry, but it's just a dumb question. Dendi is an awesome player, unquestionably one of the best, and the same can be said for Na'Vi as a team. Good players get fans. Good teams get fans.
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On September 04 2012 05:35 Rybka wrote:
This title of this thread is akin to asking "why so many Lebron/Heat fanboys?"
I'm sorry, but it's just a dumb question. Dendi is an awesome player, unquestionably one of the best, and the same can be said for Na'Vi as a team. Good players get fans. Good teams get fans.
Lebron is the undisputed best player in the NBA. Navi is definitely not the undisputed best team in Dota2, nor is Dendi the undisputed best player in Dota2. In the end, Navi got fans because they are not Chinese, nor Asian. If fans only cared about skill there would've been at least equal amounts of fans split between Navi and IG, if not more for IG.
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On September 04 2012 05:42 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 05:35 Rybka wrote:
This title of this thread is akin to asking "why so many Lebron/Heat fanboys?"
I'm sorry, but it's just a dumb question. Dendi is an awesome player, unquestionably one of the best, and the same can be said for Na'Vi as a team. Good players get fans. Good teams get fans. Lebron is the undisputed best player in the NBA. Navi is definitely not the undisputed best team in Dota2, nor is Dendi the undisputed best player in Dota2. In the end, Navi got fans because they are not Chinese, nor Asian. If fans only cared about skill there would've been at least equal amounts of fans split between Navi and IG, if not more for IG.
This pretty much sums it up.
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On September 04 2012 05:35 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 05:30 aintz wrote:
racism is racism; even in esports where it's not nearly as bad as real sports/real world.
grow some skin fellow chinese fans, who cares if commentators are biased and the crowd cheers only for non chinese teams. plus theres chinese commentators who are much more knowledgeable about dota. If the Chinese fans have to put up with it, then the Western fans should stop trying to justify their racism. Racism is racism.
im chinese....
you need to grow up. its kids like you who make the situation worse than what it is. even the chinese commentators whos sitting infront of all the fanboy crowd and biased english commentators didnt give a crap about what was happening. learn to accept the fucking community or dont be a part of it.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
I love how people are throwing out the race card here. Navi are an exciting team to watch, not afraid to try new things and entertain the crowd. Dendi and Puppey have great vibrant personalities and this endears them to the audience. Add in the fact that they are the defending champions. Plus, they had a massive following since the group stages. Look at their first game and the pennant counts.
Bias against China? Probably, but it's because people respect the Chinese powerhouse. An underdog fight makes for a great narrative.
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EPT
