This topic might sound like a rant, but I honestly just want to clarify information regarding the current dota 2 metagame.
I've been playing dota for 3 years now, started in dota 1 and was pretty into the game; I haven't been paying much attention to the current dota 2 international scene since I generally prefer dota 1.
I watched tournaments since an early stage. I started watching during the early versions when axe was popular. This eventually transitioned to the solo-mid era in which SF, bat, SS and lion mid were prominent (where players such as PIS, zhou, and DAI dominated). Eventually, versions where 4 supports protecting 1 carry were preferred (well- known farmers and carries who dominated were ZSMJ, burning, and zhou at this stage). Finally, the metagame shifted towards "gank / push", when new heroes such as AA/lina/CK/SD became more popular. This is probably my favourite era, and my favourite teams, LGD, NV.cn, and Ehome dominated.
eventually, i drifted my attention towards other stuff, and newer players such as seaking (haiwang), 430 (the pianist haha) and such emerged. This era lasted relatively short, and many teams have changed their rosters. Dota 2 came out, and the roster of my favourite teams changed, and i stopped paying attention to the competitive scene.
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when dota 2 was released, there seems to be a sudden surge of na'vi fanboys, and, in particular, dendi fanboys. i always thought dendi was a good player (i think he played for MYM?), but wasn't up to par with the chinese powerhouse. i understand many people thought his pudge / windrunner aggressive play and picks were interesting, but i personally prefer the old, organized style which consisted of roaming ganks. During previous versions, perhaps dota was less popular, but i didn't know of that many people who watched and followed the competitive scene.
my question is, why na'vi, and why dendi in particular? there are many good players, some of them, in my opinion, are far better than dendi. yet from what i've read, it seems like dendi is getting so much more attention that he deserves... did i miss out on something significant he did, or are european / americans just less conscious of the pro-chinese-dota players? or have the chinese teams less dominant now? from what i know, seems like DK and LGD are still doing pretty well...
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On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
this is a common response i get from na'vi fanboys when i ask them why they love dendi so much :s
my response would be, pudge is not exactly a "bad" hero, just an undiscovered hero. if you think of previous versions, people also thought omniknight, batrider, naga siren, and tauren chieftan to be useless. rather than being useless, i would rather say they were undiscovered.
chinese teams 'discovered' many heroes. ZSMJ showed how powerful a farmed medusa could be, and YYF and 830 popularized other heroes like Tauren Chieftan and Invoker. PIS (better known as yaphets) popularized Shadow Fiend, and Merlini popularized Zeus.
Yet first banning medusa / sf / zeus in older versions, and now banning tc / invoker, does not seem to invoke as big a response from the crowd as banning pudge against dendi... if i'm playing against zhou, i would selectively ban pugna / tiny, and i would definitely ban a windrunner if i'm against a star player like YYF. Wasn't picking shadow fiend originally a "weird" way of playing as well? I don't see so much attention going to PIS, despite icefrog renaming Nevermore...
Woudn't you agree that Chinese team also specialize in interesting styles of play; they just make things work so smoothly that their trend becomes the "standard" playstyle?
I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
If I remember right and got it right, the first international (which was the start of dota 2 beta) Na'vi, relatively unknown at the time, were just roflstomping everyone through the tournament, with dendi being their ace player. Since then their popularity have been as is.
It's because they feel the need to cling to a team that can actually remain competitive against Chinese teams. Everyone else gets stomped so of course all the non-Chinese fans will jump onto the Na'vi bandwagon.
Add to the playstyle of Na'vi, of course Na'vi will have plenty of fans. It's more entertaining to watch someone actually push the action of the game rather than play a methodical game that is boring as shit to watch at times.
Tbh I find Navi fanboys to be a bit annoying too, but maybe that's because I'm a big fan of the Chinese teams. I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi. It seems to me like a lot of casters (like Ayesee and Tobi) are also huge Navi fanboys and aren't always successful at separating their bias from what's going on in the games.
I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
Yeah I totally agree. I think it's because they're so afraid of Pudge disrupting their 5-man methodical stick-togetherness of late game. I don't think iG or LGD have had a hero get picked off past the 20-25 minute mark in any game yet; they're that good at following a gameplan and not making mistakes. Pudge probably messes that up, and I don't think they're used to playing against him, taking them out of their comfort zone.
On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
this is a common response i get from na'vi fanboys when i ask them why they love dendi so much :s
my response would be, pudge is not exactly a "bad" hero, just an undiscovered hero. if you think of previous versions, people also thought omniknight, batrider, naga siren, and tauren chieftan to be useless. rather than being useless, i would rather say they were undiscovered.
chinese teams 'discovered' many heroes. ZSMJ showed how powerful a farmed medusa could be, and YYF and 830 popularized other heroes like Tauren Chieftan and Invoker. PIS (better known as yaphets) popularized Shadow Fiend, and Merlini popularized Zeus.
Yet first banning medusa / sf / zeus in older versions, and now banning tc / invoker, does not seem to invoke as big a response from the crowd as banning pudge against dendi... if i'm playing against zhou, i would selectively ban pugna / tiny, and i would definitely ban a windrunner if i'm against a star player like YYF. Wasn't picking shadow fiend originally a "weird" way of playing as well? I don't see so much attention going to PIS, despite icefrog renaming Nevermore...
Woudn't you agree that Chinese team also specialize in interesting styles of play; they just make things work so smoothly that their trend becomes the "standard" playstyle?
I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad .
On September 02 2012 12:27 writer22816 wrote: I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi.
Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
IMO, dota starts with merlini, and ends with god knows what.
On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
this is a common response i get from na'vi fanboys when i ask them why they love dendi so much :s
my response would be, pudge is not exactly a "bad" hero, just an undiscovered hero. if you think of previous versions, people also thought omniknight, batrider, naga siren, and tauren chieftan to be useless. rather than being useless, i would rather say they were undiscovered.
chinese teams 'discovered' many heroes. ZSMJ showed how powerful a farmed medusa could be, and YYF and 830 popularized other heroes like Tauren Chieftan and Invoker. PIS (better known as yaphets) popularized Shadow Fiend, and Merlini popularized Zeus.
Yet first banning medusa / sf / zeus in older versions, and now banning tc / invoker, does not seem to invoke as big a response from the crowd as banning pudge against dendi... if i'm playing against zhou, i would selectively ban pugna / tiny, and i would definitely ban a windrunner if i'm against a star player like YYF. Wasn't picking shadow fiend originally a "weird" way of playing as well? I don't see so much attention going to PIS, despite icefrog renaming Nevermore...
Woudn't you agree that Chinese team also specialize in interesting styles of play; they just make things work so smoothly that their trend becomes the "standard" playstyle?
I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
The thing you're overlooking is that people don't just like players because they are the best or even really good at what they do: they like them because:
1. They've heard of and seen them play. I don't think the majority of dota players are very exposed to the Chinese scene. This is by far the biggest reason. You also have the language barrier for westerners, making harder to follow Chinese websites/interviews, etc. Dendi's even made some guides where he comments on his game in English (not his first language, or even one he is particularly good at).
2. They have personality. We always see Dendi joking around, dancing, and so on.
3. He has won the biggest Dota tournament in the world, money-wise.
It's not something to get upset over. I know a lot of people who have heard of Yaphets and how good he was, but have seen maybe 1 highlight clip on youtube of him playing. It's hard to be a fan of something you didn't fully experience yourself. With Dendi, people have watched him win and lose, so they feel a lot more for him.
Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
On September 02 2012 12:20 NTTemplar wrote: If I remember right and got it right, the first international (which was the start of dota 2 beta) Na'vi, relatively unknown at the time, were just roflstomping everyone through the tournament, with dendi being their ace player. Since then their popularity have been as is.
You couldn't even call Dendi the "ace" player for Na'Vi in the first International.
Honestly, I'd call it a product of: 1) Western fans really love their 2nd position ganker/tempo-carrying players 2) Na'Vi is the sole western team remaining in an increasingly Asian-dominated game
So even though Puppey/LoH have just as, if not more outstanding play (my personal opinion is that Dendi is somewhat overrated, and it's Puppey that really makes the Na'Vi machine tick), Dendi gets the attention because of the role he plays.
On September 02 2012 12:21 Seiferz wrote: He's the not-chinese Ferrari. Better at some heroes, worse at others.
That alone makes him really really fun to watch, and the not-chinese (underdog) status pushes him to popularity.
TBH I'd say that Dendi feels a lot like the 430 of late last year. He plays very well in lane and always does well personally, but there are definitely games where he CAN leverage his advantage into a good push/gank/teamfight tempo for his team but doesn't. He still definitely has room to grow as a player.
I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi.
It's not very dissimilar to people who wont watch gsl if there are no foreigners in it. In an international site, the chances of finding fans for teams that they can relate to are a lot higher. Fan power is not based of best plays alone, a lot of it has to do with other things. Casters will also have an inherent bias, even if they try to cover it, it will show.
People like to relate and DotA 2 (as with other E-sports) has the ability to have people really become support of their respective nations or similar. I mean, look at the International and the cheers for "USA, USA, USA". When that fell through, and not a single Chinese team really losing, people become supportive of Na'Vi.
On September 02 2012 12:27 writer22816 wrote: Tbh I find Navi fanboys to be a bit annoying too, but maybe that's because I'm a big fan of the Chinese teams. I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi. It seems to me like a lot of casters (like Ayesee and Tobi) are also huge Navi fanboys and aren't always successful at separating their bias from what's going on in the games.
I can understand the Na'Vi fanboying. It's actually more surprising that Dendi gets so much love when he's arguably much less outstanding than the other members of Na'Vi. Puppey is a much more exceptional captain, and LightOfHeaven a much more exceptional hard lane solo than Dendi is as a mid player. It's just that those roles get less recognition in general.
I agree with what most people in here say really, it's just bias towards what you can familiarize yourself with. I feel like have nothing in commin with the chinese, but a lot more in common with teams from Europe. And seeing as though you are from Hong Kong (if this is correct?) then I'd assume that you're biased towards asian/Chinese teams.
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
i think the most important thing of bein a navi "fanboy" is that this team is just showing such a large amount of emotions. western people just love that while chinese teams show how perfectly they can be at calculating games. so everyone can favour a team at each game, just by picking a favoured playstyle. like football (soccer :o), like the usual sport i love and party. so insane that i now can have fun with the "sport" i really love, i am really into. even realife mates that never played any computer game competetively are very into it. dont know how to impress my imagination/love for putting up this event. this post officialy might sound so gay, but no other way to express my feelings
I agree with most answers in this thread. Just compare it to sc2, where foreigner are almost always the fan-favorites. Also, Dendi and SingSing too, are popular among western fans, because they're streaming pretty often and receive a lot exposure in general. It's just entertaining to watch them play because of their high risk, high reward playstyle.
On September 02 2012 13:09 Plansix wrote: Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I mean, that's also by virtue of the fact that they get virtually no exposure to Western E-sports media.
On September 02 2012 13:09 Plansix wrote: Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I mean, that's also by virtue of the fact that they get virtually no exposure to Western E-sports media.
Yeah, huge shocker that entire teams that does not speak english does not get a ton of exposure Western E-sports. In other news, French television shows do really poorly when shown in countries that are not France.
On September 02 2012 13:09 Plansix wrote: Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I mean, that's also by virtue of the fact that they get virtually no exposure to Western E-sports media.
Yeah, huge shocker that entire teams that does not speak english does not get a ton of exposure Western E-sports. In other news, French television shows do really poorly when shown in countries that are not France.
On September 02 2012 13:09 Plansix wrote: Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I mean, that's also by virtue of the fact that they get virtually no exposure to Western E-sports media.
Yeah, huge shocker that entire teams that does not speak english does not get a ton of exposure Western E-sports. In other news, French television shows do really poorly when shown in countries that are not France.
Except in Canada.
Wait, part of Canada speaks French, you can't trick me!
On September 02 2012 13:10 RyzeDotA wrote: When a chinese team dominate for an entire year, their players will get fame aswell.
I mean, a Chinese team dominating Western play for a whole year is going to be impossible even if there is one strong enough, because they'd have to be playing in Western online tournaments at 400 ping, which is probably a waste of time compared to just winning Chinese events.
Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I don't think you read through my OP (I don't blame you, the post is indeed longer than I intended it to be), but I clearly stated that I didn't initially intend my post to be a rant, and I have probably been watching dota tournaments earlier than you have. Indeed I'm from Hong Kong, so what I say could possibly be biased, but that doesn't imply you could discard everything I say as being irrelevant... And neither am I judging what you say based on where you're from -_-
I'm indeed a little annoyed at Na'vi's popularity, and that's because I have seen many other dota teams who have displayed equal or superior skill. I haven't watched puppey's games, but I'm not denying that puppey is a great team captain. But you are overlooking other games that you may not have access to... You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
btw, the ck-lina combo got diminished due to the the shift to tri-laning, and ds-kunkka combo was no longer used due to it having no real late game pushing potential. Radiance alchemist was hard countered by morphling copying a replicate radiance tank, and AA's blast denying alchemist's ability to regen health. those are interesting plays you should definitely check out if you care.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I don't think you read through my OP (I don't blame you, the post is indeed longer than I intended it to be), but I clearly stated that I didn't initially intend my post to be a rant, and I have probably been watching dota tournaments earlier than you have. Indeed I'm from Hong Kong, so what I say could possibly be biased, but that doesn't imply you could discard everything I say as being irrelevant... And neither am I judging what you say based on where you're from -_-
I'm indeed a little annoyed at Na'vi's popularity, and that's because I have seen many other dota teams who have displayed equal or superior skill. I haven't watched puppey's games, but I'm not denying that puppey is a great team captain. But you are overlooking other games that you may not have access to... You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
btw, the ck-lina combo got diminished due to the the shift to tri-laning, and ds-kunkka combo was no longer used due to it having no real late game pushing potential. Radiance alchemist was hard countered by morphling copying a replicate radiance tank, and AA's blast denying alchemist's ability to regen health. those are interesting plays you should definitely check out if you care.
you've been around forever, we haven't.
we get it.
na'vi are our heroes and ever since the first international when i got into watching competative dota they've been dominant, fun to watch, full of personality and just generally awesome. It should be fairly easy to understand, for the same reasons that you revere the chinese players, we revere navi.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I don't think you read through my OP (I don't blame you, the post is indeed longer than I intended it to be), but I clearly stated that I didn't initially intend my post to be a rant, and I have probably been watching dota tournaments earlier than you have. Indeed I'm from Hong Kong, so what I say could possibly be biased, but that doesn't imply you could discard everything I say as being irrelevant... And neither am I judging what you say based on where you're from -_-
I'm indeed a little annoyed at Na'vi's popularity, and that's because I have seen many other dota teams who have displayed equal or superior skill. I haven't watched puppey's games, but I'm not denying that puppey is a great team captain. But you are overlooking other games that you may not have access to... You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
btw, the ck-lina combo got diminished due to the the shift to tri-laning, and ds-kunkka combo was no longer used due to it having no real late game pushing potential. Radiance alchemist was hard countered by morphling copying a replicate radiance tank, and AA's blast denying alchemist's ability to regen health. those are interesting plays you should definitely check out if you care.
you've been around forever, we haven't.
we get it.
na'vi are our heroes and ever since the first international when i got into watching competative dota they've been dominant, fun to watch, full of personality and just generally awesome. It should be fairly easy to understand, for the same reasons that you revere the chinese players, we revere navi.
The problem is not whether or not anyone respects / reveres teams or not. It's that sometimes Na'vi fans sometimes are so in love with their team that they forget that there are many teams that have had far more dominant runs than Na'vi has. And there are plenty of players in the Eastern world just as good as Na'vi and can beat them quite easily on any given day. Believing that Dendi is the best solo mid for instance, is quite funny especially considering he has been beat mid quite often this tournament, and his lane is covered up by LOH/Puppey's dominance this entire time.
Ok heres what i love about navi. They always play games that are fun to watch. Even if they pick standard heroes and the games are just amazingly fun to watch, epic team fights, epic plays, the team work is great, and they play with flair. Its like watching Spain play soccer in the world cup.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
Yup.
But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I don't think you read through my OP (I don't blame you, the post is indeed longer than I intended it to be), but I clearly stated that I didn't initially intend my post to be a rant, and I have probably been watching dota tournaments earlier than you have. Indeed I'm from Hong Kong, so what I say could possibly be biased, but that doesn't imply you could discard everything I say as being irrelevant... And neither am I judging what you say based on where you're from -_-
I'm indeed a little annoyed at Na'vi's popularity, and that's because I have seen many other dota teams who have displayed equal or superior skill. I haven't watched puppey's games, but I'm not denying that puppey is a great team captain. But you are overlooking other games that you may not have access to... You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
btw, the ck-lina combo got diminished due to the the shift to tri-laning, and ds-kunkka combo was no longer used due to it having no real late game pushing potential. Radiance alchemist was hard countered by morphling copying a replicate radiance tank, and AA's blast denying alchemist's ability to regen health. those are interesting plays you should definitely check out if you care.
Just because you say it is not a rant does not make it less of a rant. Its like saying "I don't mean to be rude" and then screaming at them. To be very frank, asking people why are they are fans of something is just dumb. The same goes for relating skill to whether or not people should be a fan of a team is also dumb. I have been a fan of the Boston Red Sox for most of my life. During the majority of that time, they had not won a World Series in 86 years. They were a very bad team.
People do not like teams based on skill. They can respect skill, but that does not mean they have to be fans of that team.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
Na'Vi is in my opinion one of the few dota 2 teams, where every single player has equal importance to the teams success. Dendi is the frontman because he's a) playing the ganking role, which is the most fun to watch I guess, and b) of his high risk, high reward playstyle. It can completely change teamfights, and if it doesn't the majority does not care too much. Most people don't appreciate a stellar, solid performance by the support player as much as ganks/kills by the mid/hc player.. It's comparable to Football, where the striker is the most popular person on a team.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
Na'Vi is in my opinion one of the few dota 2 teams, where every single player has equal importance to the teams success. Dendi is the frontman because he's a) playing the ganking role, which is the most fun to watch I guess, and b) of his high risk, high reward playstyle. It can completely change teamfights, and if it doesn't the majority does not care too much. Most people don't appreciate a stellar, solid performance by the support player as much as ganks/kills by the mid/hc player.. It's comparable to Football, where the striker is the most popular person on a team.
It's funny too because LOH on Broodmother is outfarming XBOCT most of the time (who generally plays the hard carry).
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
Na'Vi is in my opinion one of the few dota 2 teams, where every single player has equal importance to the teams success. Dendi is the frontman because he's a) playing the ganking role, which is the most fun to watch I guess, and b) of his high risk, high reward playstyle. It can completely change teamfights, and if it doesn't the majority does not care too much. Most people don't appreciate a stellar, solid performance by the support player as much as ganks/kills by the mid/hc player.. It's comparable to Football, where the striker is the most popular person on a team.
It's funny too because LOH on Broodmother is outfarming XBOCT most of the time (who generally plays the hard carry).
XBOCT is one of the most active hard carry player you can find in dota. He participates in a lot more teamfights then the normal hc player would. Of course there are way more better hardcarry player than him, but XBOCT isn't as plain bad as you make him. Na'Vi strategies aren't revolving around 4 on 1 and just creating space for your carry to win the game, atleast in this international so far.
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I don't think you read through my OP (I don't blame you, the post is indeed longer than I intended it to be), but I clearly stated that I didn't initially intend my post to be a rant, and I have probably been watching dota tournaments earlier than you have. Indeed I'm from Hong Kong, so what I say could possibly be biased, but that doesn't imply you could discard everything I say as being irrelevant... And neither am I judging what you say based on where you're from -_-
I'm indeed a little annoyed at Na'vi's popularity, and that's because I have seen many other dota teams who have displayed equal or superior skill. I haven't watched puppey's games, but I'm not denying that puppey is a great team captain. But you are overlooking other games that you may not have access to... You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
btw, the ck-lina combo got diminished due to the the shift to tri-laning, and ds-kunkka combo was no longer used due to it having no real late game pushing potential. Radiance alchemist was hard countered by morphling copying a replicate radiance tank, and AA's blast denying alchemist's ability to regen health. those are interesting plays you should definitely check out if you care.
Just because you say it is not a rant does not make it less of a rant. Its like saying "I don't mean to be rude" and then screaming at them. To be very frank, asking people why are they are fans of something is just dumb. The same goes for relating skill to whether or not people should be a fan of a team is also dumb. I have been a fan of the Boston Red Sox for most of my life. During the majority of that time, they had not won a World Series in 86 years. They were a very bad team.
People do not like teams based on skill. They can respect skill, but that does not mean they have to be fans of that team.
Look... I don't mean to be rude but... that was totally a rant.
All joking aside people like Na'Vi because they're an absolutely strong team with a lot of personality. They play exciting games using unique strategies and force bans on heroes like Pudge. Chinese teams don't seem to have that same personality and if they do it doesn't translate through interviews and same with their playstyles, passive-farm games aren't very exciting. Yes their execution will cause people to notice their ability but they aren't going to wow people and gain a huge fanbase after another 50 minute game of 4-protect-1.
I really like iG, I like their playstyle and they have some awesome players. Chuan is likable because you can find English interviews with him, there's a video that was posted on reddit of him playing a drinking game with some people at TI2 but he seems to be in the minority there.
@OP... I'm new to the forums - I've read the rules regarding conduct & such - but you're full of it. Not only was most of the content in your OP misleading and extremely inaccurate ; but then you claim you've watched plenty of tournaments?
I play DotA since 2003, before Guinsoo's Allstars version. I watch DotA since 2004 - I saw the 1st IGS tournaments ; the 1st WDC featuring DotA in Singapore etc. So based on what you said... Since I've seen far more tournaments than you probably have and have been in the competitive scene & top inhouses since 2005... I'm right and you're wrong? Doesn't quite work that way man.
A lot of what you said was wrong, and a lot of what was right happened too long ago for new comers to really care. The game has changed. Zhou will never play Pugna mid again. People are entitled to like a certain player or team for the right or wrong reasons - "just because" holds no grounds. Not everyone has the same point of view.
I think it's just a mix of great plays and an entertaining personality. He might not be the best (I personally prefer LoH for example), but he's a great player that plays crowd-favorite heroes (ie Pudge) and, just like MC for example, always jokes around outside of the game. What's not to love?
Your post reads like a classical BW > SC2 argument.
You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
That'd be like me telling someone who never followed BW competitively how he wasn't around when [insert nostalgic memory from 6 years ago].
I really don't think people view Navi as the end all be all of Dota. It is just due recognition for the winner of TI1. A lot of people here actually have their own favourite players from all parts of the world.
Navi's style is fresh and entertaining too. You can never count them out. They are a relatively new team, but their players have long history. From Ars-Art, VP's legendary Lina and Nerubian Assasin. LoH is probably the most accomplished player in the history of non-Chinese Dota. Puppey's reputation speaks for itself. Dendi has been there since the days of Wolker Gaming as a 15-16 years old prodigy.
Na'Vi takes everything in a more lighthearted way than the Chinese take it. Look at the game 2 of Na’Vi vs IG today. They smile and joke around during the picking phase. They look like they are actually having fun while playing a video game. Video games to me are supposed to be fun, and people tend to take ESPORTS too seriously and forget why we even watch them. Na'Vi practices a whole lot less than their Chinese counterparts but they still find a way to win. They might not be the very best individually but they play like a real team.
It also helps that the Na'Vi players speak English, this helps a lot of fans connect with them in a way that non-English speaking Chinese players just can't do. They just seem like lifeless machines out there; they are disciplined and hardly ever pop a smile. Mouz sports also have a great following despite not being a very good team; they are entertaining and try different things even though it might not give them the best chance of winning.
You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
That'd be like me telling someone who never followed BW competitively how he wasn't around when [insert nostalgic memory from 6 years ago].
okay i apologize. didn't intend it that way, just wanted to subtly raise consciousness to other teams that are in my opinion not as recognized as they should be.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
Yup.
But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
Dendi is a charismatic and extremely high skilled player, arguably the best solo mid in europe. The chinese might be really good also, even better (I personally think Ferrari is the best solo mid in Dota), but they don't really have exposure on the western scene, most of them don't know english, you don't really feel connected I guess.
And Zeus wasn't a "shit" hero when Merlini played him, the old Blink Dagger made him really strong (along with a smaller hero pool, different meta, etc), he was even a common ban at some point.
The first thing I did when I got interested in DotA last year was learn about the Chinese scene. There's a ton of amazing videos on YouTube translated from Chinese. I recommend them strongly to anyone struggling to identify with the Chinese teams. There is so much more to DotA than Na'Vi.
Azarkon in the LR thread in the tournament section is why some of the people who actually know about DotA's past history tend to get extremely annoyed. Mind you, he's not the only person. There are literally thousands of Navi fans out there who are just as bad as him.
to reference starcraft 2. a lot of people watch dota with commentators. the major commentators all love na'vi/dendi/puppey/LoH. so the people watching love them.it's like clide fanboys with tastosis.
The epic game 2/3 against IG speak for themselves. The entire team is fun to watch, and Dendi has a great personality outside of the game. He comes up with a lot of big plays as solo mid and in teamfights, there is absolutely no denying that.
Puppey's drafting + chen is insane. LightOfHeaven has been playing sick Enigma. Xboct is a great hard carry farmer. Dendi is an excellent solo mid and does some huge plays. His DOTAsense is over 9000. AA's support is top class.
etc
Also they're white in a sea of completely anonymous, emotionless Chinese teams.
1. They are still the best foreigner team, as we can still clearly see from TI2. Yeah, sometimes they lose 0-2 to Quantic and POTM Bottom, but when push comes to shove, look what happens. Top 4 at the $1,600,000 event.
2. They have a consistent roster (as consistent as u can get in the dota scene lol, they only changed 1 player since TI1)
3. They are by far the most handsome team on the scene. Period.
4. "Born to win" and trademark bright yellow uniforms - great attractor.
5. They play a fun style that doesn't revolve around letting morph or sylla farm for 30 minutes.
China has only just relatively recently taken Dota2 seriously. There were only really a couple of teams playing regularly and the SEA tournaments werent covered by Tobi till recently so doesnt get such a wide western audience. Unless you watched Godz and Triumphs streams you wouldnt have seen many chinese games at all this year. Then the TI2 invites started coming out Valve made sure they all had laptops they could use to play the game and they started playing Dota2 a lot more in preparation.
Also Dendi streams and you shouldnt underestimate this. Players can get extremely popular despite less skill if they are popular to watch, you get to know that person more and have more affinity with them. This is why Synderen and SingSing are arguably more popular than they should be. But NaVi have been the European team to beat all year pretty much and they were last years champions.
TLO got very popular for very similar reasons. Its the way it works, people like personalities and fun play/tactics. Dendi has this in spades.
He's like the Larry Bird of DotA. Westerners want a western hero to cheer for. I'm sure the longer the scene develops people will get to know the chinese players but atm it's easier for the average TL'er to identify with someone like Dendi
On September 02 2012 13:53 yotcarter wrote: @OP... I'm new to the forums - I've read the rules regarding conduct & such - but you're full of it. Not only was most of the content in your OP misleading and extremely inaccurate ; but then you claim you've watched plenty of tournaments?
I play DotA since 2003, before Guinsoo's Allstars version. I watch DotA since 2004 - I saw the 1st IGS tournaments ; the 1st WDC featuring DotA in Singapore etc. So based on what you said... Since I've seen far more tournaments than you probably have and have been in the competitive scene & top inhouses since 2005... I'm right and you're wrong? Doesn't quite work that way man.
A lot of what you said was wrong, and a lot of what was right happened too long ago for new comers to really care. The game has changed. Zhou will never play Pugna mid again. People are entitled to like a certain player or team for the right or wrong reasons - "just because" holds no grounds. Not everyone has the same point of view.
Yea im in the same boat you are, I found the 3 years thing pretty funny because its not long at all.
Valve hosted the international last year, which had more money than any dota tournament before by a large margin. Na'vi won that international, so they have the fame.
In the same way that you talk about ZSMJ, PIS and Zhou because they are the ones that get the kills and make the plays, everybody talks about Dendi because his pudge destroyed EHOME to win last year. You didn't mention 820's support when quoting chinese teams. Why is that? Because he doesn't get the attention that the carry heroes do.
Personally I'm a dendi fan because of how ballsy he can be. There was a game where he picked sandking, epicenter blink borrowed into the forest behind the sentinel first tower to kill a hero and missed the whole combo, only to kill him with sandstorm. The balls to the wall dendi thread we have here comes to mind. There are better players than him, and hes certainly not the flash/boxer of dota, but he is very popular because of how much exposure he gets and the way he plays. Also the gangnam dance at the end of the game today was hilarious, especially since vilat was asking for it at the end of the game.
Everyone remembers Dendi the same way everyone remembers Burning; they're the most memorable people on their respective teams. The other people on their teams are of equal importance, but Dendi and Burning pull photogenic plays and get the most screentime because of it.
Plus they have rather different playstyle from most players. Dendi's remembered because he generally takes big risks to make amazing plays, Burning because he generally kills everyone after twenty minutes of ricing.
and same with their playstyles, passive-farm games aren't very exciting. Yes their execution will cause people to notice their ability but they aren't going to wow people and gain a huge fanbase after another 50 minute game of 4-protect-1.
This ^^ and
They do different things like let the two most auto-ban heroes in the entire tournament go to their opponent and rape them. i.e.
1st - The International @ Gamescom, Cologne (2011) - $1,000,000 1st - Electronic Sports World Cup, Paris (2011) - $12,000 2nd - Star Championship, Kiev (2011) - $5,000 1st - The Defense (2012) - €6,000 1st - The Premier League (2012) - $5,000 1st - Star Ladder: Star Series #1, Kiev (2012) - $6,000 2nd - Dreamhack Summer, Sweden (2012) - €5,400 1st - The Premier League, season 2 (2012) - $5,000 1st - Star Ladder: Star Series #2, Kiev (2012) - $6,000 1st - joinDota Masters Special (2012) - €1,000
Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I can explain why I personally am such a fan of Na'Vi.
I have been playing dota for a long, long time (8ish years---I don't really remember when I started) and in that time I have just played the game for fun and did not follow the competitive scene at all. Then last year, I stumbled upon The Invitational having no idea that there were any plans on making dota a standalone game.
Needless to say I was fascinated, not only with the idea of having dota with an actually matchmaking system and a good engine, but by dota as a competitive game. I ended up watching pretty much the whole tourney, and as I knew nothing about the teams I picked my favorite (early on I might add) based entirely on their play style: Na'Vi. Coming from a background of dota pub games, seeing a well coordinated team just push early and smash face was so refreshing from the muck I spent years playing (you know what pubs are like), that I couldn't help but root for them. When Na'Vi kept winning that merely sealed the deal.
Na'Vi was the team that got me interested in dota2 (though I still haven't been able to play yet), and in dota as an esport, and as a result I'll be cheering for them as they win TI2.
I've watched like 6 games of Dota2, I find the game to be mostly boring from a spectator perspective. I don't know why and the more games I watch the more this idea cements itself for me. I still enjoy playing occassionally, and I think it's a great game, but I just don't think MOBA in general lends itself especially well to making good fan viewing.
Now, "why the hell is he just bashing DOTA2," you may be asking. Well I'm not really, I'm just saying I don't like watching, but I do have a point. With all the hype of TL beginning to cover DOTA2 and TI2 happening I thought I would give it a chance again. I mean the amount that Valve has pumped into this event is great and all the pomp and production around the event has been really cool to see and frankly just really impressive. So obviously it holds some sort of strong attraction to the people watching this, so I gave it another chance.
These last few days I think I've watched an additionally 6 to 7 games. Aaaaaaaaaaand after the first 4 or so games my perspective remain unchanged and my opinion that Dota2 is just not a good spectator sport held true. Then I watched Na'vi play IG I think, some super power Chinese team that the commentators were just lauding before the matches. Oh nvm, just Liquipediad it, it was DK. The first game lasted something like 25 minutes, and Na'vi smashed them 21-7. And the game was freakin' exciting.
After watching several 45-60 minute snore fests where one team would slowly, inevitably pull ahead of the other team until they were untouchable and then spend another 20 minutes bleeding them out, this was like I was watching a different game. It's probably unfair to attribute this entirely to Na'vi and Dendi I think they were two of the forces that made the game ridiculously exciting. The aggressive, gank happy playstyles were exciting. Even though it still felt like the was a a sort of mild grasp on game flow and disparate elements, it still made for a fairly exciting game because the action was centralized and non stop.
The two parties in question, Na'vi and Dendi, attract a lot of excitement because they exude that excitement in every fiber of their being. It's shoved in down the other teams throat in game, and out of game its always evident in the way they carry and conduct themselves. I may be a veritable noob as far as the Dota2 proscene goes, but I can recognize excitement when I see it, and I see it here. I think with my less than receptive demeanor and my general lack of familiarity with the players and teams it's even more poignant to see them raise a response like that in me.
Watching all these teams, and all the games, no players, or teams really stuck out to me, or even really interested me until I watched Na'vi. Their games, like the ones I've seen up until now, were magnetic.
TLDR I haven't like watching any of these TI2 games and dota2 in general, but Na'vi's games have excited me. Their team and players have a flare and magnetism that is undeniable.
On September 02 2012 15:47 Kupon3ss wrote: there are a lot of dendi/na'vi fanboys because they're the only team with white people that are able to compete
Because he is for western Dota 2 a bit like IdrA was for western BW. One of, if not the best in that scene, and able to compete with the Chinese/Koreans. And he's also awesome.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
Yup.
But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
just like basketball fans loved Jordan more than Stockton (not a fair comparison but you get the point)
On September 02 2012 12:27 writer22816 wrote: Tbh I find Navi fanboys to be a bit annoying too, but maybe that's because I'm a big fan of the Chinese teams. I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi. It seems to me like a lot of casters (like Ayesee and Tobi) are also huge Navi fanboys and aren't always successful at separating their bias from what's going on in the games.
I can understand the Na'Vi fanboying. It's actually more surprising that Dendi gets so much love when he's arguably much less outstanding than the other members of Na'Vi. Puppey is a much more exceptional captain, and LightOfHeaven a much more exceptional hard lane solo than Dendi is as a mid player. It's just that those roles get less recognition in general.
When I first started watching Dota 2, I thought Tobi was saying "LineOfHeaven". The first 5 or so games I saw of Na'Vi's all had LightOfHeaven as windrunner and I don't remember a single shackle into a fight that *didn't* latch onto two heroes including the carry. I was like "man, so that's why he's called line of heaven", lol.
Here's a fun thing iceiceice said in an interview. He was first asked who he thinks is the better invoker, him or dendi, and he settled that he is the best invoker in the world. Then, when asked what players would he choose for the perfect dota team; his instant first choice was Dendi.
Seeing as most people who occupy these forums, and the event being taken place in the US, it would be obvious that a lot of the audience is American/European.
I personally do think Dendi gets more credit than he deserves. I think Puppey, LightofHeaven, and AA are arguably more talented than Dendi and XBoct, but Dendi and XBoct happen to get the most attention. It seems that in the Western scene, having a personality to relate to, or a "fun" personality, is always more important than talent (much like the SC2 scene) while in the Eastern scene, talent is regarded as the epitome of a pro-gamer.
The same can be said about gameplay preference. A lot of people think it's enjoyable to watch a Na'Vi-style game where towers are pushed and game gets ended in 20ish minutes, but some others think that watching Chinese games display a certain form of perfected execution, positioning, and strategy is more enjoyable although it takes 40-60 minutes.
The reason for a lot of the blind fanboy-ism is that, in the end, it is still a lot easier to cheer/relate to a European team than it is a Chinese team, much like how in SC2, people ride the foreigner bandwagon a lot more than rooting for Korean players. Many Chinese players have equal if not greater skill than Na'Vi, but mostly go unrecognized.
People can have a million different reasons to get emotionally invested in something or someone. So you for instance, take skill as a measure. But it is more or less as arbitrary as everything else. Who should I root for in football. Barca or Real? Liverpool? Manu? Bayern? Should I always root for the latest Champions League winner and flip-flop like a flag in the wind every time the champion title changes hands?
"But X is better" is such a weak argument. It can be one reason.
They are really good. Best EU team hands down, and pulling punches with the top chinese teams.
They are constantly making big plays, and they are the team you can never count out.
Dendi is the one making the most flashy plays, so the majority of people just go OMG DENDI SOO GOOD (as someone who is bad at support, how AA does what he does blows my mind).
There's so many fans of Na'vi because people are fans of successful teams and players. Same reason why the most popular players and teams in any videogame or sport are so popular. They also stand out even more by being the western (non-chinese) team to have the most success in DotA 2 so far, and by having attractive/fun personalities. It's that simple, and pretty obvious why there's so many fanboys. I get annoyed by the fanboying too sometimes, like when I see the entire front page of /r/dota2 covered in "LOOK AT THIS THING NA'VI DID" while the success of other teams that also deserve some appreciation are buried and unnoticed, but that's just how it works in all competitive games and sports.
There's also been a distinct lack of Chinese scene knowledge and coverage in general on the websites that have been the frontrunners for DotA 2 coverage since the beta was released, like joinDota, among others, who focus their attention almost exclusively on the European scene (and to a much lesser extent, the NA scene), so I think that also definitely adds to people not caring as much about the Chinese scene simply because they don't know much about it. And in turn, when you don't know about the Chinese teams, the next obvious team for a large fanbase to latch onto is Na'vi because of their success over basically any other team in the European scene. But I won't really get too into that because I think it might be a touchy subject.
On September 02 2012 12:11 findingthelimit wrote: I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
That is taking too far, but Dendi really is to Dota 2 what boxer and flash were to broodwar. As for DotA, I'd say Vigoss is a bigger legend than Merlini, but that's just personal preference, I'd say.
i've been wtachin Dota2 only since the beginning of TI2, and if you wanna know why I like Na'vi and Dendi, watch Na'Vi vs iG game 2, around 27mn i think it is
That play was spectacular, and sure it wasnt made by Dendi only, but that + the caster bias is enough for me to be converted to the na'Vi Dendi cause
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
yeah, close this thread please.
Seems like a bunch of chinese fanboys that are mad about na'vi winning over IG
mouz fan myself and you don't see me making posts about why there are so many chinese fanboys out there....
Beside Na'vi won TI1, what have the chinese done in dota 2? Dominated dota 1, 2 years ago?! Only chinese team who are doing good would be lgd and ig and only lgd are in winner bracket.
Come back when LGD wins TI2, which I honestly think they will :p
The answer is really simple. Skill (fame or accomplishments) is not a primary and not the only one viable reason to root for/be a fan of somebody. Often times skills is not even involved at all, because different people find their own reasons to express their sympathy. And you can't judge them for that (doing otherwise is just... stupid).
I don't believe that OP was not capable to understand that simple fact and his post is indeed a simple rant and should be addressed properly.
On September 02 2012 12:11 findingthelimit wrote: I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
That is taking too far, but Dendi really is to Dota 2 what boxer and flash were to broodwar. As for DotA, I'd say Vigoss is a bigger legend than Merlini, but that's just personal preference, I'd say.
That is just so incredibly disrespectful to BoxeR and Flash. I can only assume you are saying that because you never followed Brood War.
On September 02 2012 12:11 findingthelimit wrote: I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
That is taking too far, but Dendi really is to Dota 2 what boxer and flash were to broodwar. As for DotA, I'd say Vigoss is a bigger legend than Merlini, but that's just personal preference, I'd say.
That is just so incredibly disrespectful to BoxeR and Flash. I can only assume you are saying that because you never followed Brood War.
LOL, BW fanboys are just as incredibly annoying if not more so. Incredibly disrespectful of Boxer....by comparing Dendi to him??????? Really??? You need to grow up or something.
Also, my reason loving Na'Vi is because they are an amazingly talented team that wins with incredibly flashy play and by being very aggressive at times. The Chinese just have the slow, boring, 600cs, methodical style that, while effective, is just BORING AS HELL.
On September 02 2012 20:45 Angra wrote: There's so many fans of Na'vi because people are fans of successful teams and players. Same reason why the most popular players and teams in any videogame or sport are so popular. They also stand out even more by being the western (non-chinese) team to have the most success in DotA 2 so far, and by having attractive/fun personalities. It's that simple, and pretty obvious why there's so many fanboys. I get annoyed by the fanboying too sometimes, like when I see the entire front page of /r/dota2 covered in "LOOK AT THIS THING NA'VI DID" while the success of other teams that also deserve some appreciation are buried and unnoticed, but that's just how it works in all competitive games and sports.
There's also been a distinct lack of Chinese scene knowledge and coverage in general on the websites that have been the frontrunners for DotA 2 coverage since the beta was released, like joinDota, among others, who focus their attention almost exclusively on the European scene (and to a much lesser extent, the NA scene), so I think that also definitely adds to people not caring as much about the Chinese scene simply because they don't know much about it. And in turn, when you don't know about the Chinese teams, the next obvious team for a large fanbase to latch onto is Na'vi because of their success over basically any other team in the European scene. But I won't really get too into that because I think it might be a touchy subject.
i agree with that 100%. i remember watching the game and reading a an observer state "why is this commentator biased?" when referring to ayesee when he had a favorable opinion for chinese dota and wasn't tooting navi's horn. it seems like it's only him, godz and triumph who truly cast chinese dota.
Dendi is probably currently the best solo mid, I mean when you can force 2/3 top chinese teams to ban pretty much all the mid heroes then you know the opposing player is highly rated amongst the Chinese teams.
NaVi and players like Dendi are so famous, because they keep DotA attractive for more than only the die-hard dota fans. Sure chinese teams executed their strategys very precise - they almost function like a clockwork. I also admire the perfection that is put into "clockworks", but I dont watch it for a long time.
Here NaVi comes into play: they manage to bring excitement, unpredictability, skill and the OMG-factor (i.e. Dendi`s rubic stealing ravage midfight and using it to turn the battle to their favor). Many fans want to see this because it entertains them more, than perfect lanecontrol and a 30+ Minute farm-marathon by the hardcarry. It`s very similar for mouz - they dont win everything, but have a huge fanbase, because they entertain a lot.
Why people are fans of Navi and Dendi? Well lets see:
1. They are a foreign team, they allways have more fans. 2. They play a very fun style and aren't affraid to play unorthodox when their tournament life is at stake. 3. They are able to compete with the best teams in the world. 4. Dendi has a very entertaining stream which helps a lot. 5. They have awesome personalities.
That's just some of the reasons. Just look at starcraft, the best players are korean. But do they have the most fans? Hell no, guys like Stephano and Idra do.
You talk about the Dendi/Na`Vi fans being biased - don't you think you're biased yourself, asking people why they like a team that has accomplished a lot and all you can say is that they're not terribly good?
Dendi streams and is fun to watch with his quirky play. I'm sure he's not the best player, and Na'vi not the best team, but he's entertaining. IMO, OP is just being a hipster and trying to show off how OG he is.
I think it's just as in every other sports in the world. Na´Vi is the team with the most success in Dota2 as winner of last year's TI. With many new players to the competetive scene and last year's TI being the first tournament they've ever watched, they got the Na´Vi > All image burnt into their heads. Let's add the fact, that most of them are just simple pubgamers, who obviously love to see kills all over the place and are entertained by this [Nothing wrong with that], but don't have a big enough understanding of what's going on behind all this. They just see the killcount, like Na´Vi 13 - 9 EG for example and think, that Na´Vi are better and are going to win, without a further look at the lineup, map control and farm distribution.
Most people become fans of a certain player or team, due to their succes and Na´Vi isn't the first team to attract such fans. 2006 VP [The Vigoss fanboyism even continues today], LGD 2009 and EHOME 2010 had those as well. It's how the whole fan thing in general works. As for Dendi: Just like in football for example, where either the striker with the most goals like Ronaldo, Torres, Ibrahimovic and Gomez, or the player with the most flashy plays like Özil, Messi, Iniest, Silva etc. usually gets the most recognition - Comparing this to DotA Dendi get's his recognition for his flash actions and kills, while players like Sylar or Burning are acknowledged for their insane farming capabilities. This is just what stands out the most. Going back to footbal most people have a hard time even mentioning some decent defending players and eventually goalkeepers, because they are expected to do certain things like stealing the ball from an attacking player or catching a goalshot - But there's rarely anything spectacular about that. It's the same with the support role. In my opinion, players like SanSheng, Faith, Akke, Miracle [Best support Duo in EU imho] do a beautiful job with [de]warding, lane controlling, still managing to find farm and even sacrificing themselves for their carry if necesary - And just like in football there's rarely anything spectacular about that, but just what people expect you to do.
Why are there merely and fans of chinese teams? Well just look at the exposure they have. Try getting your hands on replays of ACE, G-League etc. or find any VODs, which are NOT on youku. How do you want to know anything about them, if they keep everything secret.
So now going back to why Na´Vi has so many fans: Simply due to their success & achievenemts in the past year. Ever had a friend of yours who's never been into football [or insert any other sports you like/follow] and "suddenly" is a fan of the team, which won the last season, running around in a shirt of the team, bashing on every other team and saying, how his team is the best ever? I'm very sure most of you guys have expirienced something like this already. Being on the internet only makes things worse, with people being unfriendly as humanly possible, insulting your family down to the 1st generation and just general trolling, while hiding behind the anonymity, which the internet offers. You won't see someone running on the street holding his finger high in the air yelling: "u mad 'cuz your team lost, LOL! Stupid EU/NA/CN/SEA fanboy go F yourself! My team > yours!! I told you the whole time! The internet makes people idiots and sadly those stand out the most amoung all the fans. Not every Na´Vi fan is an ignorant trolling kid and not every LGD fan is a calm minded, analytical and understanding fan - They can be kids as well. We mostly just encounter the immature part. Rember all the pubgame with that idiot flaming kid on your team? Sure you do. You probably even remember, which hero he played. Remember the pubgame, where your team was coordinating like playing in WDC finals, yet you still lost, but were satisfied, because the game was actionpacked and fun? You probably don't and if most likely won't even know the hero you played yourself in that match.
tl;dr: Our brain remembers the bad times easier, than the good times and this let's it appear, like there are just dicks around us, while the distribution of "dumb fans" and "decent / acceptable fans" is probably even. Oh and one more thing: The Philosophy of games
Dendi and Navi have some personality, i'm no Dota2 fan but watched the game against iG last night. I find watching most Asian teams very boring to watch, they don't have personality and win or lose they show no emotions, where as you find most Western teams are quite the opposite.
I'm a fan of Dendi and Na'Vi. The reason is simple, i discovered Dota with The International and Dota2. I saw some boring as fuck games and then i saw Na'Vi and i said to myself "this game is not that boring after all, it's even really epic". So i cheered for them after the first game they did. Then i tried to get a beta key and now i play Dota 2 only, basically they made me want to play Dota.
Then they won everything so i was like this guys are real beasts.
Then they came to the TI2, and surprise one more time 85% of the great amazing shinny plays came from them even if they are maybe not the best ones this time. With the chinese being as boring as you can be especially LGD, it's really good to see Na'Vi play and i don't care if they win, they made TI2 good for me one more time and save it from being a snooze fest of chinese farm.
They are Top3 in the world, and only team able to resist China robots.
They are some kind of Dota artists whereas the Chinese are more like math pros, so chinese use stuff they know, with perfect gameplay no mistakes and Na'Vi come maybe not as disciplined but with sometimes the genius thing pop up and if they find the magic they can destroy everyone. Game 2 against iG yesterday was the best example of this magic thing.
And finally i'm a fan of Dendi because he can make the magic happen for Na'Vi with shinny plays.
On September 02 2012 12:11 findingthelimit wrote: I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
That is taking too far, but Dendi really is to Dota 2 what boxer and flash were to broodwar. As for DotA, I'd say Vigoss is a bigger legend than Merlini, but that's just personal preference, I'd say.
Guess what, that thread said Dendi is to Dota 2 what Boxer is to broodwar. People love to take things out of context, specially when they are complaining about something. I dare you to face someone to represent Dota2 so far better than Dendi.
I really have no idea how someone can be mad about people supporting Navi. And even less how you can be surprised about it. You don`t support the best team all the time, that wouldn`t be very fun would it? Mouz has a huge amount of fans and they are a mid tier team just because they are carismatic and fun to watch. Puppey is always amazing whenever he is interviewed or joins a cast, you can`t dislike the guy. Navi overall has a lot of characteristics that make they a fan favorite. They are very good, they have a tendency to rise to the challenge and pull it off on the hardest and most important situations, they do unorthodox strats and actually win, they stream, etc. Then looking at this tournament we even have the underdog effect going on for them. There was a reason everyone was rooting for mTw in DH as well.
And you expect people to be fans of chinese teams? Really? Teams that have no western media coverage, don`t play in western tournaments and most people watching probally have known about them for about a week? This is what doesn`t make sense. There are a few hardcore supporters that go out of their away to watch and support chinese teams, but it`s still not something readily avaible on the western media and not something you should expect of the majority of viewers.
On September 02 2012 12:11 findingthelimit wrote: I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
That is taking too far, but Dendi really is to Dota 2 what boxer and flash were to broodwar. As for DotA, I'd say Vigoss is a bigger legend than Merlini, but that's just personal preference, I'd say.
That is just so incredibly disrespectful to BoxeR and Flash. I can only assume you are saying that because you never followed Brood War.
LOL, BW fanboys are just as incredibly annoying if not more so. Incredibly disrespectful of Boxer....by comparing Dendi to him??????? Really??? You need to grow up or something.
Also, my reason loving Na'Vi is because they are an amazingly talented team that wins with incredibly flashy play and by being very aggressive at times. The Chinese just have the slow, boring, 600cs, methodical style that, while effective, is just BORING AS HELL.
LOL
On September 02 2012 13:35 TheYango wrote: But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
On September 02 2012 13:35 TheYango wrote: But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
but that is just plain wrong, puppy does some of the best drafting around. How do you think they won over IG?! because puppy drafted better.
They let them take naga siren because they knew exactly how to counter her
On September 02 2012 13:35 TheYango wrote: But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
but that is just plain wrong, puppy does some of the best drafting around. How do you think they won over IG?! because puppy drafted better.
They let them take naga siren because they knew exactly how to counter her
Which is exactly what he said. He said dendi takes all the spotlight from people like lightofheaven and puppey, even though they're arguably the two best players on the team.
Most accomplished team in an esports got lots of fans, I think this is an issue for sure. Maybe we should ask Valve to change the english client to chinese so all of those newschool idiots have to pilgrim to China, learn the language and take a class in dota history. After that those philistines should realize how foolish the choice of team was who they cheer for.
I'll be honest. You're kinda like someone who doesn't like watching parting play pvt. You may not be as enthused, but there will never be a way for you to be understood by standard fans of the game. We love parting, we love dendi
The answer is so obvious that this thread shouldn't even exist. Why don't you go write and article on Chinese dota teams instead, explaining how good they are and why? Don't you think it's a little bit stupid to ask why a player whose team has dominated dota 2 for a big chunk of its life is popular? I wonder what reaction you expected.
On September 02 2012 23:49 urdak wrote: The answer is so obvious that this thread shouldn't even exist. Why don't you go write and article on Chinese dota teams instead, explaining how good they are and why? Don't you think it's a little bit stupid to ask why a player whose team has dominated dota 2 for a big chunk of its life is popular? I wonder what reaction you expected.
More importantly; why does it matter? Because certain Chinese players "deserve" more attention? What the hell is that, just enjoy the nice plays regardless.
This thread is pointless, for sure. Inevitable flame war ignition :p.
Na'Vi won the first international. Huge exposure, and gives them huge appeal to Dota 2 fans (particularly those who don't follow the scene too closely). You say there are many players better than Dendi - I'd have to say I disagree. I'd say there are other players around that peak level, but I can't think of any that I'd say were flat out 'better'. Na'Vi have a very aggressive style which is fun to watch - this does not mean they don't make solid drafts. Just because they have huge playmakers and can pull off unusual strats/heroes well doesn't make them gimmicky. They also have a lot of character which shows in and out of game. Who wouldn't support Na'Vi? :D
What's more funny is the kneejerk reaction to Na'Vi losing some games in the group stages. Anyone who actually follows the scene knows that that was not Na'Vi playing well.
People like him because he's a good player and has style and flair both in the game and out. That's why Singsing, for example, is my favorite stream to watch. Sure his language isn't for everyone but I find him funny as hell.
The question is how can you not love dendi and navi? They've been dominating DotA2 so far, they're cool guys, they have an entertaining playstyle. Dendi, who is an extremly good player also plays the heroes which the crowd loves to see. Pudge for example is maybe the most popular hero, yet he is underused in competitve play. The chinese are really good, no doubt about that, but you dont get to see much of them here in the western world. And them being so good contributes even more to navis popularity because they're like "the foreign hope", similar to stephano in sc2 for example.
I never got why many people dont like the chinese play style of safe and going for late game because dont most people prefer the long macro games in bw compared to fast all in cheeses? I mean the later the game goes the weaker team will make more and more mistakes so the better team will come up?
I heard dota players always said that late game was more luck cuz if someone gets caught it can be a totally turn around though so idk. Just was always weird seeing many people hate on the chinese style when I always thought it was the most perfect/best strategy of all.
On September 02 2012 13:35 TheYango wrote: But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
but that is just plain wrong, puppy does some of the best drafting around. How do you think they won over IG?! because puppy drafted better.
They let them take naga siren because they knew exactly how to counter her
There really wasn't a counter; Puppey and everyone else on that team both know that Zhou really fucked up big time. It was more of the fact that most of the Chinese teams outside of Tongfu for one game completely messed up on most of the Naga combos.
If I had to make a choice between watching Na'vi + Dendi or watching the 2 best Chinese teams fight, I'd pick the former any day. Chinese teams are definitely good, but their matches are incredible snorefests. Farm farm farm, never taking a single risk. It's obvious that people would rather watch exciting games instead of 60 minute PvE.
On September 02 2012 13:35 TheYango wrote: But apparently the fans love Dagon Puck more than immaculate hard lane play or some of the smartest drafting in the game.
but that is just plain wrong, puppy does some of the best drafting around. How do you think they won over IG?! because puppy drafted better.
They let them take naga siren because they knew exactly how to counter her
Did you even read the context of my post? The "immaculate hard lane play" im referring to is LoH, and the "smartest drafting in the game" is Puppey.
I understand the Na'Vi hype, but Dendi definitely steals the spotlight from his teammates. LoH and Puppey in particular have been outstanding while Dendi's play, while flashy, honestly has not been exceptional compared to other 2nd position mid players this tournament.
On September 02 2012 13:25 Tevinhead wrote: Dendi is a player that likes to make stuff happen. He isn't afraid to do things that others would be. And when it pays off he makes really amazing plays, when it doesn't, well not as much notice is taken. However Dendi does deserve the hype in my opinion. His reaction times and consistency just speak of someone with a lot of natural talent. This is a player who was accused by the community in DOTA 1 for using macros and scripts because apparently no one can invoke with such speed and accuracy. Dendi responded by posting a video of himself in wtf mode with invoker and proceeding to cast every single spell in very quick succession whilst you can see his fingers. His fingers looked like that of a BW pro.
Puppey the hivemind, very very intelligent player, with deep game understanding.
Light Of Heaven the ever so consistent off-laner.
XBOCT the carry that seems to start carrying 15 minutes before other team's carry does.
Ars-art the secret carry, always linking with his team perfectly, creating kills and saving carries.
All of these players are amazing in their own right. But it's Dendi with that mechanical skill to pull off any idea he thinks of. The reaction time to dodge that which most couldn't and the balls to always try the improbable. And it's not just his skills, he's a funny guy, always likes to be a joker, always trolling. He's an entertainer in and out of the game as well as a very nice and mannered guy. Sort of like a cross between MC and White-Ra. Add all of this entertainment value and skill, then add the fact that he's in the most successful Dota 2 team, by far. And you have clear reasons for fanboyism.
OPA DENDI <3
Except if you compare Dendi's mid lane play to his counterparts on other teams, it's been arguably much less exceptional than Puppey or LoH.
The only reason it shines in the fans' eyes is because the 2nd position/mid lane role gets more attention, because it gets lots of kills.
Puppey/LOH have been carrying Na'vi the entire time. LOH in particular. Since they've made it into WB finals, LOH has been outperforming his team a vast majority of time.
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
I don't think you read through my OP (I don't blame you, the post is indeed longer than I intended it to be), but I clearly stated that I didn't initially intend my post to be a rant, and I have probably been watching dota tournaments earlier than you have. Indeed I'm from Hong Kong, so what I say could possibly be biased, but that doesn't imply you could discard everything I say as being irrelevant... And neither am I judging what you say based on where you're from -_-
I'm indeed a little annoyed at Na'vi's popularity, and that's because I have seen many other dota teams who have displayed equal or superior skill. I haven't watched puppey's games, but I'm not denying that puppey is a great team captain. But you are overlooking other games that you may not have access to... You weren't around when the CK-Lina DS-kunkka, radiance-alchemist combos got invented and shut down, but those games show spectacular play as well. I'm not in any way denying that Puppey / Na'vi is a strong team, I'm just saying that there are perhaps better teams out there that you are ignorant to or indifferent of.
btw, the ck-lina combo got diminished due to the the shift to tri-laning, and ds-kunkka combo was no longer used due to it having no real late game pushing potential. Radiance alchemist was hard countered by morphling copying a replicate radiance tank, and AA's blast denying alchemist's ability to regen health. those are interesting plays you should definitely check out if you care.
you've been around forever, we haven't.
we get it.
na'vi are our heroes and ever since the first international when i got into watching competative dota they've been dominant, fun to watch, full of personality and just generally awesome. It should be fairly easy to understand, for the same reasons that you revere the chinese players, we revere navi.
The problem is not whether or not anyone respects / reveres teams or not. It's that sometimes Na'vi fans sometimes are so in love with their team that they forget that there are many teams that have had far more dominant runs than Na'vi has. And there are plenty of players in the Eastern world just as good as Na'vi and can beat them quite easily on any given day. Believing that Dendi is the best solo mid for instance, is quite funny especially considering he has been beat mid quite often this tournament, and his lane is covered up by LOH/Puppey's dominance this entire time.
At that time they were also losing, the whole team was kinda demotivated, but after they beat DK they have been on fire man! Playing really well, owning iG (looked at as 2nd best team? with LGD 1st?) Look at the games vs DK, iG and after winner bracket finals today vs LGD and then say if he has playing bad or not.
Haha I think TheYango said it best. It is a combination of Dendi's personality + role that rockets him to the spotlight. Sure there are moments when Dendi does those ridiculous skill shots or plays but everyone on that team is worth their weight in gold.
Puppey & LoH amazing reaction speed and clarity through that intense moment.
XBocts farming and carry is almost on par with the revered Chinese monsters. (Sylar, Lord Burning, etc) Or as close as it is going to get for Western Dota2.
It's not too complicated to comprehend, every sport has it's 1 signature star. Boxer, Dendi, Michael Jordan , Tiger Woods, Federer, etc.
Dendi is overrated and can't do wrong. Commentators hype him whatever he does and he usually plays heroes and a style that can sometimes land big flashy plays, but when they don't work nobody notices. I don't even cheer for Navi because of this ridiculous hype, even though I like Puppey and LOH and even Xboct at times. Dendi and his army of fanboys behind him ruin everything. I really hope LGD lets him take Pudge and then crush his face.
How can you say he was losing his lane, the 2nd and 3rd game against iG he had higher farm than ferrarri, he started off a bit behind, but than he caught up and was beating him in lane once he hit level2/3 on rubick. You are asking people why they are a fan of Na'Vi, it's because to us, the western people, Na'Vi is known. You can bring up ben merlini, I've heard his name, heard he was good in dota1, but this is dota 2, im new to the dota scene, so to me Na'Vi was the first team I heard of when I started playing so I like them more. I never heard of Ferrari430 before this tournament or any of the other chinese teams really.
I don't get why it is so crazy that there are a lot of fans for the best Western team in TI2. It is not arguable they are the best team in TI2, it is literally fact + Show Spoiler +
because every other western team got knocked out early.
I'm a newly made fan of LGD, but having love for a great team with great personality isn't something that should be just thrown away because they aren't as good as other teams in an "objective" scale. Does Dendi get a higher proportion of love than he deserves, compared to the rest of his team? Sure. But does that mean he doesn't deserve any praise? Of course not, he is a strong player. Once again, which western 2 player would you have over him on your team?
On September 03 2012 01:22 Ramanujan wrote: Dendi is overrated and can't do wrong. Commentators hype him whatever he does and he usually plays heroes and a style that can sometimes land big flashy plays, but when they don't work nobody notices. I don't even cheer for Navi because of this ridiculous hype, even though I like Puppey and LOH and even Xboct at times. Dendi and his army of fanboys behind him ruin everything. I really hope LGD lets him take Pudge and then crush his face.
On the contrary, when Dendi got his ass rocked vs. Orange, a lot of people noticed and commented. Even though he has a giant fan base, and a lot of people can be blind fanboys, it doesn't mean you should hate on him and his team. Especially since you really like the other players on it!
I love Ars-Art's play honestly. No one ever mentions him LOL, he's the Ringo Starr of Navi.
On September 03 2012 01:23 EchelonTee wrote: I don't get why it is so crazy that there are a lot of fans for the best Western team in TI2. It is not arguable they are the best team in TI2, it is literally fact + Show Spoiler +
because every other western team got knocked out early.
I'm a newly made fan of LGD, but having love for a great team with great personality isn't something that should be just thrown away because they aren't as good as other teams in an "objective" scale. Does Dendi get a higher proportion of love than he deserves, compared to the rest of his team? Sure. But does that mean he doesn't deserve any praise? Of course not, he is a strong player. Once again, which western 2 player would you have over him on your team?
On September 03 2012 01:22 Ramanujan wrote: Dendi is overrated and can't do wrong. Commentators hype him whatever he does and he usually plays heroes and a style that can sometimes land big flashy plays, but when they don't work nobody notices. I don't even cheer for Navi because of this ridiculous hype, even though I like Puppey and LOH and even Xboct at times. Dendi and his army of fanboys behind him ruin everything. I really hope LGD lets him take Pudge and then crush his face.
On the contrary, when Dendi got his ass rocked vs. Orange, a lot of people noticed and commented. Even though he has a giant fan base, and a lot of people can be blind fanboys, it doesn't mean you should hate on him and his team. Especially since you really like the other players on it!
I love Ars-Art's play honestly. No one ever mentions him LOL, he's the Ringo Starr of Navi.
LightofHeaven or Puppey or Ars-Art I would take over Dendi any day of the week. Finding a strong mid player is not that difficult. You can pick up even very high level public players and turn them into strong mid players in a competitive atmosphere (Yaphets came from a public gaming background and came to note when he utterly stomped 2009's Tinker who at the time was basically unbeatable). You cannot just build strong off laners, drafters, or support players in a short amount of time. It's literally impossible. All three of those players are far more important than XBOCT or Dendi. They are literally the backbone of the team, and without those 3 Dendi and XBOCT look utterly bad. LOH and Puppey for instance played terribly for the first day of prelims, and Navi's play tremendously suffered. When those two picked up their play, all of a sudden Xboct and Dendi look ALOT better. That's not a coincidence no matter how you spin it.
Make no mistake at all. Without Puppey, Ars-Art, and LOH, Dendi and XBOCT could have their pick of any other western players in the world and they still would never be able to compete against the elite Chinese teams. LOH beasting on offlane, Puppey with his strong jungle/drafts, and Ars-Art with his great support are the reasons why they compete. People focus too much on the mid/carry players, but don't realize LGD, IG, and DK were successful against everyone else because their supports/offlaners were about 3x stronger than everyone else's (espec the Western world who puts way too much emphasis on their mid/hard carry players).
On September 03 2012 01:32 EchelonTee wrote: I don't disagree that LoH, Puppey, and Smile are ballers. Now which western mid player would you take over Dendi?
So he has now gone from "undisputed best player of the world, the FLASH of dota" to "perhaps the best western mid player". :D
There are many I would pick before Dendi, by the way.
What you are doing is assuming that I am a blind fanboy. Where in my post did I say that he is the best player in the world? Not even once. How could I even dare comparing Dendi to Flash? The whole problem I have with anti-fans like you is that you attribute baseless claims to the fanbase and act like we are the ones being unreasonable.
Who would you pick before Dendi? Only one name really comes to mind really. If Dendi is such a mediocre mid player, there should be tons of names popping up.
On September 03 2012 01:32 EchelonTee wrote: I don't disagree that LoH, Puppey, and Smile are ballers. Now which western mid player would you take over Dendi?
Your mid player is not as important as a strong offlaner, support, drafter/jungler. Period. Those three not only are ballers, they are the backbone that ensures Navi is in a position to even make plays. XBOCT/Dendi's plays are a by product of LOH/Puppey/AA's strong early game mid game play that ensures that Dendi has the opportunities to make plays. This is why in interviews, Dendi never comes off as a guy that believes he is better than his team (other than when he is completely trolling) because he knows for a fact that those three are the ones who makes sure that they get anywhere.
On September 03 2012 01:32 EchelonTee wrote: I don't disagree that LoH, Puppey, and Smile are ballers. Now which western mid player would you take over Dendi?
Your mid player is not as important as a strong offlaner, support, drafter/jungler. Period. Those three not only are ballers, they are the backbone that ensures Navi is in a position to even make plays. XBOCT/Dendi's plays are a by product of LOH/Puppey/AA's strong early game mid game play that ensures that Dendi has the opportunities to make plays. This is why in interviews, Dendi never comes off as a guy that believes he is better than his team (other than when he is completely trolling) because he knows for a fact that those three are the ones who makes sure that they get anywhere.
You realize we are not in disagreement about anything at all
This is why in interviews, Dendi never comes off as a guy that believes he is better than his team
I think the Flash comparison is completely off. Hell, the fact that Chinese teams are boring, but slow, patient, and methodical means that they are much more comparable to Flash than any Western teams.
Na'vi is my new favorite team. They are the only team who can stand against the chinese teams, and they are extremely likeable. I mean HOW can you dislike Na'vi?
He asked you WHO you would take over dendi twice.. and u still haven't answered his question. Saying "there are many I would take" isn't giving an answer, name some players of better caliber in the mid lane...
While some of the fanboyism can be a bit egregious (like when the commentators didn't notice that he blink daggered to base then totally whiffed a stolen ravage) he's still a great player and tends to play heroes that are fun to watch, so people like him.
This just reeks of jealousy. Plain and simple, Dendi and his teammates got a huge spotlight by winning the first international. If it were a chinese team, it might be different.
Also, strange and interesting plays are watch spectators become attracted to. For example, TLO and spanishwa (misspell).
its pretty simple, it's easier for the "west" to connect with dendi than it is for us to connect with a chinese star, there is no community interaction and the chinese scene is almost entirely separated. Sure, we can appreciate their amazing mechanical skill, but they aren't showing any sort of community interaction or personality. It's similar to how people root for idra, stephano, etc over their korean counterparts.
I don't really understand why so many people have problems with "fanbois"... Is it really that bad for people to like a team, player, or are you just mad because you don't agree with them and you think your opinion is more important.
On September 03 2012 04:05 Yamulo wrote: I don't really understand why so many people have problems with "fanbois"... Is it really that bad for people to like a team, player, or are you just mad because you don't agree with them and you think your opinion is more important.
I don't mind Navi fans. I'm not really that big of a fan of any of the teams right now (I much preferred the 820/2009 era). However when you got fans like Azarkon, and various other fans that say "NAVI GONNA STOMP EVERYONE, MIND FUCKING EVERYONE, etc." it gets extremely annoying.
Remember, this is TL, not GosuGamers.net; you're expected to follow a certain etiquette.
People like his style of play. Like Chu in HoN, people liked his unconventional playstyle and he made a name for himself through doing it (Pudge and his domination during the International etc...) people come to the top of the pile through their unique playstyles or their personal character, just like Destiny in SC2, not the best player in the world, but he has character, Dendi has a unique playstyle and that's why I think a lot of people gravitate to him.
If your argument is that people are too gung-ho about their favorite teams then you have obviously never seen the Brood War forum or been in any esports chatroom ever. This is what competition and sports/esports is about and why people love it. It's not bad etiquette for me to show my KT Rolster pride, or my Na`Vi pride, or my Oregon Duck pride. It's the spirit of competition and love of your team and their players.
If your argument is that Dendi/Na`Vi is bad, you obviously haven't seen their accomplishments. This thread is pointless and should be closed.
On September 03 2012 04:28 Crofteh wrote: People like his style of play. Like Chu in HoN, people liked his unconventional playstyle and he made a name for himself through doing it (Pudge and his domination during the International etc...) people come to the top of the pile through their unique playstyles or their personal character, just like Destiny in SC2, not the best player in the world, but he has character, Dendi has a unique playstyle and that's why I think a lot of people gravitate to him.
comparing Dendi to Destiny is kinda BM, cuz Dendis skill within his game ranks way higher than in Destinys case. He is one of the best players and has proven it very often. period.
its pretty simple... in the western scene na´vi are sort of the "last chance" against chinese... and so they are huge fan favorites since the last international.
now you might ask why dont people like the chinese teams as much. Simple its because we cannot identify whit people that dont even speak the language we use.
Someone posted a video showing yesterday's semi-final play in 4 screens, showing the play, the crowd and both teams. Can't find the video anymore, can someone post it?
I've only started watching dota 2 for TI2 and it's glaringly obvious for me already. Navi has: Puppey: Genius team captain with a lot of leadership and no fear to do unorthodox stuff with his team. Dendi: Amazing rubick/pudge who provides a ton of big plays and is aggressive. LightofHeaven: Solid player who is amazing with enigma, has a ton of great black holes and is great in team fights. AA: Selfless player who can gank early game and always sets up Xhost for his carry. Xhost: The guy who finishes the job, farms like hell and sweeps the floor with the other team.
Dendi's play in the last 2 games probably goes a ways towards explaining it, at least for me! Really on form.. or as far as an inexperienced viewer can tell ^_^
Yeah man Na'Vi is good. And Dendi has a ton of personality. They make some fun plays and dance about it. Who can argue with that? They're not technical genius's maybe but they are fun to watch and they could win the international again!
Oh, and Na'Vi DotA is fun to watch. I don't know if this is the absolute rule, as some of TI1 and most of TI2 encompass the whole of my experience watching DotA, but the Chinese teams seem to play a very boring, very safe, very passive style. Not sure if this is a consistent trend or just whatever, but watching a game with less than 20 kills by the 45 minute mark is kind of dreary.
Agree with OP that all this Dendi/Na`Vi fanboyism is getting annoying. 99% of the time, it comes with the often repeated mantra that Chinese Dota = boring farmfest, Na`Vi Dota = exciting ganks when more often than not we see iG trying to outpush and outgank Na`Vi, while Na`Vi sits back to farm with the harder carry. In games 1 and 3 against LGD, Na`Vi picks the harder carry and farms on them while LGD's hard carry pushes with team for most of mid-game. Honestly, I find it analogous to BW/SC2 where fanboys call foreign progamers "creative" and "innovative" while calling Korean progamers mindless robots who practice 12h a day to get good.
I find it amazing how na'vis playstyle is based on such fragile grounds. A single mistake in a teamfight and BAM its Naga ult into vaccuum into wall into ravage and 5man wipe. But navi refuses to make that mistake. Dendi ALWAYS stealing the ravage and turning the teamfight around XBOTC always landing a good chronosphere. And to address countchoculas post i'd like to just say this, China makes the metagame, Na'Vi breaks the metagame.
On September 03 2012 08:00 TheLunaticMonk wrote: I find it amazing how na'vis playstyle is based on such fragile grounds. A single mistake in a teamfight and BAM its Naga ult into vaccuum into wall into ravage and 5man wipe. But navi refuses to make that mistake. Dendi ALWAYS stealing the ravage and turning the teamfight around XBOTC always landing a good chronosphere. And to address countchoculas post i'd like to just say this, China makes the metagame, Na'Vi breaks the metagame.
I agree with most of your post. However the last part while nice-sounding isn't exactly relevant. Who gave China the right to make the metagame? Why can't European teams make the metagame?
On September 03 2012 08:04 ThaZenith wrote: People don't need to justify liking a player/team.
Anti-fanboyism is always annoying, in any form.
Go Na'Vi!
Sure you don't have to justify liking a player/team, but if you do and the reason you give is illogical, I reserve the right to point out the misconceptions in your viewpoints.
Just because you are a fan of someone doesn't mean you think they are the best player ever. There's some players I root for no matter how bad they are for various reasons.
I am a navi fanboy because they have giant balls. they kill chinese ricers with jugger or pudge. dendi is the best player in the world so its obvious that he has a big fanclub. puppey is a troll and a very good drafter, i love when he cocasting its very insightful. loh has some very bad games but when he is on his game he's just so fucking precise with his spells its amazing. xboct is one of the best ricers in the world and has some big balls too (sometime too big). AA is support so thats that. Usually they play very aggressive and crowd pleasing so if you add Dendi and the others' nice personalities and hilarious interviews you can see why they have such a big following.
On September 03 2012 08:49 nam nam wrote: Just because you are a fan of someone doesn't mean you think they are the best player ever. There's some players I root for no matter how bad they are for various reasons.
+1. What nam nam said needs special attention.
There is no real correlation between someone's popularity and their skill at some particular thing.
look at all the hate lebron gets. and hes the best player in the game atm.
I agree that the Dendi hype is maybe a bit over the top, but there is no denying that he is one of the best players in the world, arguably even the best.
I hope OP watched the NaVi vs LGD and NaVi vs iG series. Those two series should explain why people thing Dendi is so awesome. Most heroes he plays he really is able to dominate with and makes huge plays. Just look at how often he manages to steal Ravage with Rubick against high tier teams. Also, like previously stated that teams actually ban heroes like pudge and puck just because of what Dendi can do with them.
In addition to this he also has an really entertaining and lovable personality.
On September 03 2012 08:13 CountChocula wrote: I agree with most of your post. However the last part while nice-sounding isn't exactly relevant. Who gave China the right to make the metagame? Why can't European teams make the metagame?
The thing is that it usually works like this: China comes up with the new metagame, Europe modifies it, NA modifies the European modification, China gets the modified version and modifies it again.
Harder to fanboy a chinese player since they dont speak our language and we're not involved in their scene. They're anonymous monsters to me. While their skill impresses me, it doesnt make me care about them.
Dendi just happens to be most shining star outside of china, flashy and creative play wins alot fans.
i think all of today pretty much makes this entire post retarded. they're the only team to beat LGD and put them on tilt after going undefeated along with doing the most meta-breaking picks the whole tournament. and dendi goes and shatters them with rubick and probably gets the pimpest play of the tournament x5 and is going to get multiple highlights.
I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the overpowered Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, nothing to do with epic Blackholes and Chronospheres, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to fucking e-mail Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Was it all because they were trying to fit in? Appear to be a positive member of the "community"?
Then when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because white dudes get raped in BW/SC2, and in fighting games, and they're treating DotA2/Na'Vi as their "last stand"? Or is it a western cultural thing to hate the rising power that isn't white? Anyone explain?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
I agree, I root for Chinese teams because I enjoy the players ( their individual skill and farming capabilities are simply a level above the Western teams ) more and I enjoy their meta-game more ( I am from the US with European heritage, so this has nothing to do with any culture or locality, which is how it should be imo ). Everytime I voice my support or want to discuss games I get flamed by fanboys trying to imitate 4chan vernacular, SingSing dendi oriented phrases or other fanboys, that makes it impossible to discuss the games in any realistic sense. I mean really?
On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote: I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Why do people keep repeating this like it's true? More often than not we see iG trying to outpush and outgank Na`Vi, while Na`Vi sits back to farm with the harder carry. In games 1 and 3 against LGD, Na`Vi picks the harder carry and farms on them while LGD's hard carry pushes with team for most of mid-game. Granted Na`Vi plays a push strat with Jugg/Lycan once in a while, but the "boring playstyle" reason simply doesn't hold water when most of the time Na`Vi is the one sitting back playing a 4-protect-1 strat, and the Chinese team is executing a mid-game push.
On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote: I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Why do people keep repeating this like it's true? More often than not we see iG trying to outpush and outgank Na`Vi, while Na`Vi sits back to farm with the harder carry. In games 1 and 3 against LGD, Na`Vi picks the harder carry and farms on them while LGD's hard carry pushes with team for most of mid-game. Granted Na`Vi plays a push strat with Jugg/Lycan once in a while, but the "boring playstyle" reason simply doesn't hold water when most of the time Na`Vi is the one sitting back and playing a 4-protect-1 strat, and the Chinese team is executing a mid-game push.
They play 4 gank- 1 farm strat not this lets jungle for 50 minutes then clash once or twice then tap out what we are watching right now. I am 100% sure that there was no "western" game with this little kills.
On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote: I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago).
A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks.
On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote: I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago).
A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks.
There were very good games between asian teams, personally I really like LGD and DK, but you can see we have 8 kills in 35 min
On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote: I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Why do people keep repeating this like it's true? More often than not we see iG trying to outpush and outgank Na`Vi, while Na`Vi sits back to farm with the harder carry. In games 1 and 3 against LGD, Na`Vi picks the harder carry and farms on them while LGD's hard carry pushes with team for most of mid-game. Granted Na`Vi plays a push strat with Jugg/Lycan once in a while, but the "boring playstyle" reason simply doesn't hold water when most of the time Na`Vi is the one sitting back and playing a 4-protect-1 strat, and the Chinese team is executing a mid-game push.
They play 4 gank- 1 farm strat not this lets jungle for 50 minutes then clash once or twice then tap out what we are watching right now. I am 100% sure that there was no "western" game with this little kills.
LGD vs iG game 1 almost had more kills than Na'Vi vs LGD's entire set. The Chinese went wild on each other, fighting useless battles that had no meaning, just for the sake of racking up kills/ganks. It was exciting, and showed extreme individual skill (which the Chinese are renowned for), but it was scrappy play. And EVEN THEN, nobody acknowledged the fact that it was action-packed from start to finish.
And you know that whole "Chinese dominance" thing going around? Ever wonder why they're dominating with their so-called boring play? Yeah, exactly, senseless engagements are senseless, and are reminiscent of PUGs.
On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote: I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago).
A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks.
For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote: I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause.
But do we really need shit like this?
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black.
Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain?
I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago).
A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks.
For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
That's exactly what I mentioned in my first quote. I'm a Na'Vi fan, and you just highlighted a few reasons as to why. But a lot of comments in this thread don't reflect the reasons you and I have - theirs is purely a racial thing.
It's easier to say "Chinese" than "the non English speaking teams" because aside from possibly some of the SEA teams, the Chinese are exclusively the only one who can't speak English and are therefor harder to get to know.
This isn't really any different than popular personas and teams in SC2, is it?
Why is Team Liquid so popular? They don't have great results or players. They have persona though. They interact with the community, they have fun, outgoing, English-speaking players. And don't tell me English speaking isn't important... it's the language that is most likely to be understood by any foreign viewers.
Popular personas aren't even necessarily skilled. Some guys are popular strictly for personality and history, like Dragon. Most of the other big names are a mix of skill/persona. Take HuK... he's probably the most popular foreign player (though, Stephano challenging that these days) but his results are mediocre. He's not bad, but if you went solely by skill, there are many players that should be more popular.
People like Navi because they're a bunch of friendly, English speaking (somewhate) guys. The Chinese teams seem more reclusive and hard to relate to.
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the overpowered Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, nothing to do with epic Blackholes and Chronospheres, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese?
And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason?
I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to fucking e-mail Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Was it all because they were trying to fit in? Appear to be a positive member of the "community"?
Then when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese.
I don't quite get it. Is it because white dudes get raped in BW/SC2, and in fighting games, and they're treating DotA2/Na'Vi as their "last stand"? Or is it a western cultural thing to hate the rising power that isn't white? Anyone explain?
i support the continent i come from. a very small amount of people on TL are from the asian world. its perfectly normal to support the underdog. chinese teams have been dominating the tourny and now a none chinese team makes it to the finals.
I'm not going to speak for every Navi fan, but as somebody who has only started watching Dota 2 within the last year, I've had very little exposure to Chinese teams. They play in their own insular lan tourneys in China for the most part, so if I just watch the tournaments like The Defense or Dreamhack then all I see is western teams. Navi is the best of those western teams so naturally they have a lot of fans.
As for Dendi himself, he is an exciting player to watch, was arguably the best player in the first international, and is a very popular streamer.
On September 03 2012 12:58 svi wrote: Of course it's about race...
Just look at the international 2 stream chat on twitch or own3d. There's nonstop China flaming and the word "chink" appears constantly.
Lets not be delusional, people cheer for them because they're white and to deny this would be a head-scratcher...
People are racist on the internet, therefor all Navi fans are racists. :|
People are almost never racist to koreans, from what I've seen in SC2 streams.
I can't watch a DOTA2 china vs EU stream for 2 mins without seeing a discussion on "soulless chinks" or how they're essentially slaves who play 24/7.
TBH I've watched streams of a lot of games (fighting games, starcraft, WC3), and I've never seen any racism until in DOTA2.
Racism may or may not be a problem specific to Dota, my issue with your post was how it implies every fan has this ulterior skin-colored motive. This whole thread is people using broad brushes to paint everyone on either side in a negative light. Can't I just be a normal dude that likes the good games that Navi provide?
Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
On September 03 2012 15:44 Horse...falcon wrote: How can you be a fan of IG? Bought by some spoiled rich kid with $6 million of his father's money. They're pretty much the Yankees of Dota.
I would've preferred any other team, Chinese or not, to win it.
Don't have to be a fan, but at least be remotely objective. People complain that the Chinese teams ran boring farm strategies all the time, and yet that is exactly what Na'vi did every time they could get XBOCT a hard carry like Anti-Mage.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push.
Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all.
On September 03 2012 15:44 Horse...falcon wrote: How can you be a fan of IG? Bought by some spoiled rich kid with $6 million of his father's money. They're pretty much the Yankees of Dota.
I would've preferred any other team, Chinese or not, to win it.
You wonder how they can have fans then compare them to the baseball team with the most fans.
Dendi is a great player who makes the game fun with gameplay we don't get to see from most other players. In person, he's relatively good-looking and has a charming personality.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push.
Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all.
Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all.
And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it?
People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team.
When I see people claming racism in cases like these I just know that said people are running out of arguments. That is just a low blow.
If you watched the two hour+ interview with Tobi that was posted on reddit some time ago, he basically said that just now is he getting contacted by Chinese who wants him to stream some of their games. China (or Asia in general, but mostly China) more or less have their own world of Dota that they do almost nothing to advertise except for the occasional big tournament like SMM. Is it normal for people to cheer for teams they know almost nothing about? I don't think so.
I am personally not a Na'Vi fanboy, but I can certainly see why they are popular. Puppey's teams have a history of single handedly changing the meta game, and when he and Kuroky played in Ks.Int they started an unparalleled ganking era by themselves. They've pulled off strategies that have time and time again proved conventional wisdom wrong, which is exciting to se.
For the record, I think LightOfHeaven is their best and most consistant player. A true veteran that has always been among the best in the world, and have proven that he can play everything from superhard carry to a low death support.
On September 03 2012 15:51 [17]Purple wrote: People like other people more than others, why the fuck is that so hard to understand?
If I was closer to my white friend than my black friend, would that make me racists because I prefer one person over the other?
Sure, hating on the Chinese is awful but that doesn't mean we have like them as much as NaVi.
I don't mind people disliking the Chinese style of play, but straight up lying (which a vast majority of the Chinese "haters" are doing) it's just crossing the line. Na'vi probably played far more 4 protect 1 turtle carry strats than a vast majority of the Chinese teams did this tournament Saying that the Chinese were "boring" is just too funny considering more often than not China was the one who was pushing and playing aggressive throughout the tournament (espec EHOME, LGD when they got the heroes they wanted, and IG).
They are european, they are a lot of fun to watch compared to the chinese teams and they are the only "foreigner" team that fight on even ground with the chinese.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push.
Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all.
Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all.
And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it?
People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team.
Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm.
Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig.
However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push.
Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all.
Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all.
And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it?
People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team.
Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm.
Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig.
However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually.
Game 2 and Game 3 are classic examples of AM games in general when AM teams get ahead. The other team is powerless to stop them and can only camp their base. You act like this is a problem centered around Chinese style of play when that is exactly how every XBOCT AM game was when Xboct got ahead. So please stop with your arguments, becuase they are getting worse by the moment.
You're just hating to hate; those games turned out the way they did because LGD and IG were facing elimination and didn't want to do anything stupid or game throwing, especially since LGD just lost despite having a massively farmed Morphling.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push.
Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all.
Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all.
And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it?
People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team.
Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm.
Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig.
However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually.
Game 2 and Game 3 are classic examples of AM games in general when AM teams get ahead. The other team is powerless to stop them and can only camp their base. You act like this is a problem centered around Chinese style of play when that is exactly how every XBOCT AM game was when Xboct got ahead. So please stop with your arguments, becuase they are getting worse by the moment.
You're just hating to hate; those games turned out the way they did because LGD and IG were facing elimination and didn't want to do anything stupid or game throwing, especially since LGD just lost despite having a massively farmed Morphling.
Point me at a comparable XBOCT AM game please.
I don't even know why you think I hate. All I did was explain why Na'Vi is fun to watch, and why a lot of people like them (and why the LB finals game 3 was one of the only games in TI2 that had a 50-50 like/dislike ratio)
while organized teamplay is fun and impressive to see, it is also important for the individual plays as well. This is where dendi thrives and really makes the game so much more fun and interesting to view. When look at players such as burning they are incredible good at the game, and maybe better than dendi, however dendi makes the game so much more interesting which is why most people really gravitate towards dendi and, therefore, Na'vi
@ TheTester: I saw several AM games from Na'Vi where they played exactly the same way. If you honestly didn't see it then it just shows how biased you are in this discussion.
@ superstartran: I don't know how long you have followed Dota, but western teams have always had a more... "exciting" history when they clash with the east (generally speaking). Due to the Chinese playing a more refined game, western teams have usually been the ones to evolve the metagame with new strategies since that's their best shot at winning. An underdog never wins by playing by the same rules as the superior team (for those who remember, Ehomes manager said this himself a while back so this is hardly "hating").
I am sure that most people who have sticked around with Dota for a long time have similiar views and is easily biased toward western teams just because of this, and that is not even mentioning the language barrier or Chinese Dotas' relative isolation.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push.
Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all.
Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all.
And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it?
People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team.
Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm.
Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig.
However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually.
Game 2 and Game 3 are classic examples of AM games in general when AM teams get ahead. The other team is powerless to stop them and can only camp their base. You act like this is a problem centered around Chinese style of play when that is exactly how every XBOCT AM game was when Xboct got ahead. So please stop with your arguments, becuase they are getting worse by the moment.
You're just hating to hate; those games turned out the way they did because LGD and IG were facing elimination and didn't want to do anything stupid or game throwing, especially since LGD just lost despite having a massively farmed Morphling.
Point me at a comparable XBOCT AM game please.
What?
vs DK G1 and G3? What did XBOCT do? Farm. And farmed. And farmed. And farmed. When his team felt confident enough with their farm, they went to go win the game. G3 vs IG in the WB, Xboct didn't really do much but split push and farm too. G1 vs LGD, Xboct again isn't really doing much for the most part but farming. G2 vs Darer in prelims, XBOCT just afk farming, G1 vs MTW, etc. etc. etc.
You just love to pretend like Xboct is like running around the map actively making big plays all the time. No. He occasionally leaves his lane to tp and go be active, but you could say the same about the Chinese teams every time they were playing with Morph and Sylla; they were highly active early on with those two heroes, Sylla pushing towers, and Morph engaging in fights very early.
In fact, people love shitting on the Chinese just because they pick AM/Morph, and yet Na'vi probably picked AM like almost the entire tournament if they could fit it into their line-up. The amount of unwarranted hate is hilarious and amazing all at the same time, especially considering Na'vi does almost the exact same thing.
On September 03 2012 16:11 StarkOrange wrote: @ TheTester: I saw several AM games from Na'Vi where they played exactly the same way. If you honestly didn't see it then it just shows how biased you are in this discussion.
@ superstartran: I don't know how long you have followed Dota, but western teams have always had a more... "exciting" history when they clash with the east (generally speaking). Due to the Chinese playing a more refined game, western teams have usually been the ones to evolve the metagame with new strategies since that's their best shot at winning. An underdog never wins by playing by the same rules as the superior team (for those who remember, Ehomes manager said this himself a while back so this is hardly "hating").
I am sure that most people who have sticked around with Dota for a long time have similiar views and is easily biased toward western teams just because of this, and that is not even mentioning the language barrier or Chinese Dotas' relative isolation.
A vast majority of the metagame evolution past 2008 were all from China. Although the Radience/AC Sylla was nothing new (that was actually an American innovation), it was the Chinese that refined it and really abused it hard even after the leash nerf (which people thought would ruin the hero). Lycan, Naga, Panda, Invoker, Sniper (he was abused for quite sometime), tri-lanes, etc. etc. were all Eastern innovations. Beliving that the west drives the metagame is funny in itself, since virtually the entire metagame that we know it as today was built on SEA/Chinese metagame.
On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote: Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game.
Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.-
IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament.
Losers bracket finals, not grand finals.
The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams.
What?
Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL.
Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push.
Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all.
Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all.
And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it?
People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team.
Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm.
Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig.
However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually.
Game 2 and Game 3 are classic examples of AM games in general when AM teams get ahead. The other team is powerless to stop them and can only camp their base. You act like this is a problem centered around Chinese style of play when that is exactly how every XBOCT AM game was when Xboct got ahead. So please stop with your arguments, becuase they are getting worse by the moment.
You're just hating to hate; those games turned out the way they did because LGD and IG were facing elimination and didn't want to do anything stupid or game throwing, especially since LGD just lost despite having a massively farmed Morphling.
Point me at a comparable XBOCT AM game please.
What?
vs DK G1 and G3? What did XBOCT do? Farm. And farmed. And farmed. And farmed. When his team felt confident enough with their farm, they went to go win the game. G3 vs IG in the WB, Xboct didn't really do much but split push and farm too. G1 vs LGD, Xboct again isn't really doing much for the most part but farming. G2 vs Darer in prelims, XBOCT just afk farming, G1 vs MTW, etc. etc. etc.
Hmm, the game 1 where Na'Vi took rax at 25 with a 7-17 score or the game 3 where they took a rax at 26 with the fight that was claimed #1 play of that day? He farmed. And farmed. And yet, the games were much shorter and more action packed than both the LB game 2 and 3.
First of all, I have a ridiculous amount of respect for Na'Vi. For as good as they are, they're very humble, and they showed some great manners after losing the finals.
Dendi's blink + force staff Rubrick is ridiculously ballsy, and he deserves praise for using it in big tournaments.
I just don't like European fans here constantly post all this crap about Chinese dota being boring. There are a tiny handful of boring IG games, but they also provided some extremely fast games (16 min win and 20 min win against Na'Vi in groupstage) and a 12 min win vs Na'Vi with Night Stalker.
The thing is those fast wins are quickly forgotten, and the retards on the forums whine about their 1-2 long games as "evidence" of them being boring. This selective bias just makes me facepalm.
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with.
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with.
Despite his outlandish trolling, he is right in that alot of fans were pumping up Dendi as though he was gonna crush everyone mid when in today's final he was actually getting outdenied and out cs'd for quite sometime by Ferrari in the GF despite having help from Puppey (QoP vs DK).
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Haven't seen this much anger in a post for awhile. Were you mad that they made it through the winners bracket as well? iG got into Puppeh's head and beat him at what he's supposed to be best at in the drafting. However Na'Vi beat every chinese power house in a bo3 to get there. Equal teams and equally skilled players.
A vast majority of the metagame evolution past 2008 were all from China. Although the Radience/AC Sylla was nothing new (that was actually an American innovation), it was the Chinese that refined it and really abused it hard even after the leash nerf (which people thought would ruin the hero). Lycan, Naga, Panda, Invoker, Sniper (he was abused for quite sometime), tri-lanes, etc. etc. were all Eastern innovations. Beliving that the west drives the metagame is funny in itself, since virtually the entire metagame that we know it as today was built on SEA/Chinese metagame.
Please, you can't be that blind. Yes, the trilane during ESWC a couple of years back really taught the west a lesson, but saying that China is the innovators?
"Q: Do you think the game that was just lost is a fluke? Against well-prepared foreign teams, should domestic start taking things very seriously?
DC: Losing is never a fluke. There are always reasons.
Q: We interviewed DTS and they said that they deliberately developed new hero line-ups and strategies for Ehome and other top teams, and are well prepared for the tournament. Do you think that Chinese teams have problems in the new version?
DC: In dealing with new versions, European teams are often better than Asian teams in exploring new line-ups and coming up with new strategies. However, once you reach the mid and late stages of a version release, for various reasons they are not really able to contend with Asian teams. This is a trend we must break, because it's not right. It's why we fall behind in innovation and development - there's a problem here. As a professional team, you can't keep using "results" as an excuse. This is because innovating allows you to achieve even better results and reach greater heights. This is an issue with ourselves. This time should be a lesson for us that we need to correct our attitude. "
This is from the DTS era, which I'm sure you remember. I am not saying the Chinese never invents anything, but the majority have not come from them. In fact, most of the examples you are mentioning isn't even a result of the Asian scene.
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with.
Despite his outlandish trolling, he is right in that alot of fans were pumping up Dendi as though he was gonna crush everyone mid when in today's final he was actually getting outdenied and out cs'd for quite sometime by Ferrari in the GF despite having help from Puppey (QoP vs DK).
To be fair, that matchup is pretty lopsided and 430 knows that matchup VERY well because it's been fairly common in DotA 1 since the start of this year. With Dendi going into that matchup having not practiced Dragon Knight, he would literally have not gotten his bottle without Puppey's help.
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Haven't seen this much anger in a post for awhile. Were you mad that they made it through the winners bracket as well? iG got into Puppeh's head and beat him at what he's supposed to be best at in the drafting. However Na'Vi beat every chinese power house in a bo3 to get there. Equal teams and equally skilled players.
Some of his point are valid though. Navi and Dendi ARE good, they're just overrated. He's mad because of the fanboys obviously
A vast majority of the metagame evolution past 2008 were all from China. Although the Radience/AC Sylla was nothing new (that was actually an American innovation), it was the Chinese that refined it and really abused it hard even after the leash nerf (which people thought would ruin the hero). Lycan, Naga, Panda, Invoker, Sniper (he was abused for quite sometime), tri-lanes, etc. etc. were all Eastern innovations. Beliving that the west drives the metagame is funny in itself, since virtually the entire metagame that we know it as today was built on SEA/Chinese metagame.
Please, you can't be that blind. Yes, the trilane during ESWC a couple of years back really taught the west a lesson, but saying that China is the innovators?
"Q: Do you think the game that was just lost is a fluke? Against well-prepared foreign teams, should domestic start taking things very seriously?
DC: Losing is never a fluke. There are always reasons.
Q: We interviewed DTS and they said that they deliberately developed new hero line-ups and strategies for Ehome and other top teams, and are well prepared for the tournament. Do you think that Chinese teams have problems in the new version?
DC: In dealing with new versions, European teams are often better than Asian teams in exploring new line-ups and coming up with new strategies. However, once you reach the mid and late stages of a version release, for various reasons they are not really able to contend with Asian teams. This is a trend we must break, because it's not right. It's why we fall behind in innovation and development - there's a problem here. As a professional team, you can't keep using "results" as an excuse. This is because innovating allows you to achieve even better results and reach greater heights. This is an issue with ourselves. This time should be a lesson for us that we need to correct our attitude. "
This is from the DTS era, which I'm sure you remember. I am not saying the Chinese never invents anything, but the majority have not come from them. In fact, most of the examples you are mentioning isn't even a result of the Asian scene.
What?
China refined the Sylla push, as well as the Lycan play. Batrider (picked to counter Lycan BKB strats) sure as hell came from China too, as well as various other heroes too. CK/Panda were heavily used in Chinese play when they really never were in EU/NA. Trying to pretend that the Chinese didn't dictate the metagame past 2008 is hilarious, espec considering they pretty much had to since the pro scene outside of China/SEA in DotA 1 was virtually dead. You had a handful of EU teams that were playing against each other, but were pretty much stuck in the same gank meta forever until EHOME showed up and stomped the fuck out of them.
And past 2010, 2011 was basically an entirely a Chinese/SEA meta since by this point, virtually every EU/NA team was dead or on life support.
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with.
Despite his outlandish trolling, he is right in that alot of fans were pumping up Dendi as though he was gonna crush everyone mid when in today's final he was actually getting outdenied and out cs'd for quite sometime by Ferrari in the GF despite having help from Puppey (QoP vs DK).
To be fair, that matchup is pretty lopsided and 430 knows that matchup VERY well because it's been fairly common in DotA 1 since the start of this year. With Dendi going into that matchup having not practiced Dragon Knight, he would literally have not gotten his bottle without Puppey's help.
Yeah but 430 never really ever completely outright lost his lane to Dendi. He may have been very slightly behind in some games, but there was never a point where he was getting shut out. When put in reverse, there were games where 430 put his foot on Dendi's throat.
Wow. Really? You just wrote a thread about how you think that people shouldnt like Navi/Dendi? People love them because they roflstopmed TI1 and because of the huge plays they always make. When i think back at the TI2 i remember 2 plays, the one at the radiant mid rax where dendi stole brewmaster ult, and the one at the bottom dire tier1 towers("The play") where (amongst other big plays in that fight) dendi forcstaffs out of the ravage and then steals it.
Thats why people love Navi and Dendi. And why should you be unhappy with people having favourites?
Also i just realized why i stoped reading SC2 threads, there is way to much negative stuff going on that just doesnt make sense. Hopefully this will be a minority of the threads that gets posted here.
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Actually Na'Vi hasn't been bootcamping for 2 years at all. They actually do very little practicing as a team, which is a problem for them. They manage to overcome it pretty much with sheer determination when the chips are down. Watch the Live on Three interview with Puppey - he discussed all this stuff before the playoffs began.
They also defeated the other three top 4 finishers - all chinese teams. iG came back and beat them, yes. They also lost 2-1 to Na'Vi previously. It's completely absurd to suggest that after such a performance those two teams are not on the same level. The top 4 teams at the international 2 proved themselves the best four teams in the world. And only one of them could beat navi in the end- iG.
And in the closing ceremony, iG and NaVi showed enormous respect for one another. Do you really think that you have a better idea of what is worthy of respect in DOTA than Invictus fucking Gaming?
I'm not even a Na'Vi fanboy - my favorite team, hands down, is EHOME. What you're saying is just completely absurd.
On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote: let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years 2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter 3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage 4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage. 5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty 1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game 2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
You, sir, really needs an anger management class <3. Until then, I suggest you keep your posting here.
I personally really like Dendi because he has a flamboyant playstyle and is playing in a very unpredictable and generally fun-to-watch team. Also, I'm sure that a big reason why the chinese teams aren't much loved in the west is of course lack of exposure, as they have been a very insular community, with only joining the Dota2 scene in tourneys and the like recently.
Na'vi on the other hand has been part of pretty much every big tourney since TI1, and has won a lot so of course they have a lot of fans. I personally rooted for Zenith and EG this TI (even bought pennants) but Na'vi really won me over in game 2 vs IG.
The final day with 4 teams left, 3 of them Chinese, one of them western. Of course Na'Vi is the "underdog" but still they are not. I admit, in TI1 i was hoping for anyone to win but the Chinese, and its not because im racist, or think Chinese DOTA is boring, its because i dont like it when one nation dominates a game. Its why I lost intrest in SC2.
However what i really like about Na'Vi is that whenever they seem behind(and lets face it, they were behind in almost all games today, at least the ones i saw) they still pull some rabbit out of the hat with that crazy teamfight coordination. I was so sure they were losing to LGD, but from behind they came back and won. In the finals i think iG played brilliant. That disruptor changed everything. iG deserved the win but i was a bit sad that "my" team didnt win.
Dendi makes some insane plays that sometimes work and sometimes fail, and he is really funny, like in the interwiev before winners bracket final.
All in all what im trying to say is, I hope the Chinese scene doesent make a leap away from the western, because then DOTA will be boring. Not because Chinese teams play boring DOTA but because it will be THEIR game, and we get to borrow it, like it feels in SC2 now for me. I hope we can have in DOTA what we had in WC3 in its big days, when we had a lot of foreigners doing very good, and standing toe to toe with the Chinese and Korean players. It makes the tournaments more exciting
ok, ok settle down. that was just my back fire to blow the cloud of shit smoke you guys surrounded yourselves with to make dendi appear like a god. he's not. while it is commendable of what na'vi did, in fact amazing actually, the truth is dendi choked HARD in the finals. ferarri was the MOST consistent solo mid player and he is the one you should all be praising.
someone mentioned earlier that IG got into puppey's head, and it was absolutely true for the final game, but i also believe the arrogance of puppey was his undoing. in a interview BEFORE the grand finals, puppey stated "you will have to play against naga and those imbalanced heroes" he ate his own words as he picked the very heroes he didn't want to face, and LOST with them. he stated something along the lines of, you will eventually have to play them and be able to adapt, navi did NOT adapt. in fact they were GIVEN, both naga and darkseer first and 2nd game. lost first BADLY and won second right back.
when he had given them to IG in the final 2 games, he couldn't find an answer. and he pretty much dug his own coffin by giving ferarri his TA on top of naga and darkseer while not even drafting 1 aoe.
i will say credits to navi though, for their spectcular play in making LITTLE seem like ALOT. there are just many compositions where, if your skill level is about equal there should be NO WAY in hell do you win or even remotely kill 2-3 of the carrys. and they did just that in the final game where they made it seem like they had a chance, vs a pure AOE team with single spell target heroes. realistically speaking execution wise from naga's song, to dark seer's vaccum to instant wall and tide's ulti should be a 100% GG every single time no matter how good you are, but somehow they managed.
and to those only speaking on the terms of Na'Vi beating chinese teams in winners, did you guys forget prelims? navi lost to nearly every asian team, so despite beating them later on in winners, the score was practically even, if not more so in favor of the chinese. they were literally 1 game away from being shoved into losers, which we have seen time and time again, navi does lose those games vs teams like zenith, dk, etc.
On September 03 2012 16:53 Spykiller wrote: All in all what im trying to say is, I hope the Chinese scene doesent make a leap away from the western, because then DOTA will be boring. Not because Chinese teams play boring DOTA but because it will be THEIR game, and we get to borrow it, like it feels in SC2 now for me. I hope we can have in DOTA what we had in WC3 in its big days, when we had a lot of foreigners doing very good, and standing toe to toe with the Chinese and Korean players. It makes the tournaments more exciting
while i do agree somewhat? this is far too much about the western scene which is the very thing that i believe blindsided USA / European dota. I always believed the best deserve to be crowned the best, and i feel while navi "were" the best, they got comfortable. there was also alot of overconfidence coming from navi and the western scene in general, which made them stop innovating and being as hungry to get better overall and improve the current dota scene. literally no one in the western dota scene found an answer to morph which all the chinese went to, and wasted a ban because they couldn't figure out a proper answer. while all ehome did was farm a tiny to counter that.
and i don't agree this about being they're thing. if they are the current champions and absolute best, it means you have to go over to china and take it, not them coming here. it's the same in sc2. while you may not watch it anymore, i watch and support every MVP game and most MLG's and avoid all MLG's that contain only foreigners because i understand, there is no point to crown a champion who didn't beat the best to earn it and therefore boring to watch. simply put, if you love DOTA for what dota represents, you should be supporting the current best team, not a team just because they're the same race or overhyped. i'm not going to go into race issues but, there has been alot of blind bias towards navi even for USA, claiming NAVI as their own even though there is literally no association, which makes me think, people aren't here to cheer for the better team, they're here for trying to disprove that Chinese dota is better at any cost for whatever team who can do so.
there were also various comments made by tobi on the cast referring to "the chink in their armor" repeatedly. i mean i love tobi as much as the next guy, but when he brought that term up time and time again when he casted, it made me believe alot of the audience weren't there to witness who was truly the best, but just to try and prove the chinese were inferior.
none the less, when navi can hold a undefeated winning streak purely in the west without them getting pushed to earn it, it makes me think they're avoiding the best. no dota team should be undefeated for nearly a year if they're on par and are playing people of the same skill level. this is why i love the international, everyone plays on fair grounds and navi has actually for once, been pushed to prove themselves.
You really need to make TL:DR for your posts because they are a wall of uninteresting.
You don't like Na'vi, that's fine, but its not cool to flame others for liking them. Flame them all you want but saying things like "you should like HIM instead" is dumb. You mentioned you like MVP and support him, do you think it'd be cool if people said that he isn't the unbeatable beast he once was (my opinion), and that DRG is probably the more overall solid player (again, my opinion), so you should go like him instead (not my opinion but basically what you're saying about Dendi & Na'vi)?
While Na'Vi isn't my favorite team, and Dendi isn't even my favorite Na'Vi player, I definitely understand the appeal, and he is quite fun to watch. While he may not best mid player in the world(or even in the West), he is extremely entertaining to watch and also shows off his emotions so much, which is pretty damn sweet.
I'm so glad aomeone shared this, as I hadn't seen it before. Saved it in favorites haha. The crowd reaction was freakin awesome, Dendi getting all fired up, and the best part was just that smile on LoH's face.... just amazing.
On September 03 2012 17:39 PHILtheTANK wrote: While Na'Vi isn't my favorite team, and Dendi isn't even my favorite Na'Vi player, I definitely understand the appeal, and he is quite fun to watch. While he may not best mid player in the world(or even in the West), he is extremely entertaining to watch and also shows off his emotions so much, which is pretty damn sweet.
I'm so glad aomeone shared this, as I hadn't seen it before. Saved it in favorites haha. The crowd reaction was freakin awesome, Dendi getting all fired up, and the best part was just that smile on LoH's face.... just amazing.
On September 03 2012 16:57 saocyn wrote: simply put, if you love DOTA for what dota represents, you should be supporting the current best team, not a team just because they're the same race or overhyped.
Thats not simply put at all, are you saying that everyone should root for the current best team ignoring everything else? Thats not how being a sports or e-sports fan works. I root for my local hockey team, I root for my country in sports and I root for the entertaining and strong european team that Na'Vi is. This doesn't get dramatically changed by Ferrari/IG outplaying Dendi/Na'Vi in a couple matches.
They're obviously pretty damn good. Won the first international, 2nd place this time. They're not exactly bad lol. To even imply they don't deserved to be mentioned among the best is beyond stupid.
As for Dendi. He speaks English which is always going to be a strong thing. It's easier to identify with a player you can understand, it just is. He's very skilled, he's fun, he screws around a lot on his stream just to have fun. He's MEGA aggressive, on his stream he'll do stuff that seems like sheer suicide, that's just how he is. During TI2 there were times when you'd think they're screwed and Dendi just says "fuck it, go time!" and holy shit apparently we're doing this! He plays a very sort of high risk high reward style. When its going his way he's terrifying, when its not it just falls to pieces. He's just a likeable guy, how do can you not like or at the very least respect him?
Op confuses me, I can guarantee you that dendi/navi isn't really seen in god like status back over in the Chinese forums, which is like 60% of the scene and player base.
Navi is obviously a very great team, good enough to stand toe-to-toe against the best teams from China and not to mention very gm and great sports. Beating LGD, IG and DK in bo3s is definitely no mean accomplishment. However they also have to suffer from a rabid fanbase who let their bias cloud their judgment and are blind to the other side. I'm talking about the people for example deride Chinese dota for being boring farmfests while praising navi for adopting an entertaining dota style. Guess what Navi did every time they could get their hands on an AM? They just play 4 protect 1 and have Xboct freefarming the safe lane for the first 30 minutes. It's not like iG doesn't also have innovative strategies up their sleeves either (see their Luna, Disruptor, and KOTL picks).
It's true that watching LGD vs IG for example there was a lot of farming and very little fighting. However blaming this on the players is just silly. I never saw anyone farming and blatantly refusing to fight for no reason at all. All I saw was intelligent and safe playing in order to compound one team's advantage. I bet the people complaining about chinese farming are probably also stupid enough to turn around and complain about other teams who play "entertaining good dota" throwing away games. If i have a 10k gold lead and I siege the high ground, force buybacks and all the heroes on my team are on low health, you can bet I'm going to back the hell off and farm to compound my advantage instead of staying and risking the chance of getting team wiped and throwing.
Lastly don't hate the player, hate the game. If a hero like AM is one of the strongest carries used in competitive dota then it's no surprise that we're going to be seeing a lot of farmfests. If you don't like this kind of playing then you should file your complaints towards Icefrog instead of the players, they are playing to win and not to entertain.
People want to get entertained and there are different forms of entertainment. People like faces behind the games they watch and play, like MC who stands out for the koreans, like Dendi for an.entertaining/funny approach to dota. (singsing and destiny)
You like to see only the best players, that's fine. 'You should support the current best team' is laughable.
On September 03 2012 16:57 saocyn wrote: ok, ok settle down. that was just my back fire to blow the cloud of shit smoke you guys surrounded yourselves with to make dendi appear like a god. he's not. while it is commendable of what na'vi did, in fact amazing actually, the truth is dendi choked HARD in the finals. ferarri was the MOST consistent solo mid player and he is the one you should all be praising.
someone mentioned earlier that IG got into puppey's head, and it was absolutely true for the final game, but i also believe the arrogance of puppey was his undoing. in a interview BEFORE the grand finals, puppey stated "you will have to play against naga and those imbalanced heroes" he ate his own words as he picked the very heroes he didn't want to face, and LOST with them. he stated something along the lines of, you will eventually have to play them and be able to adapt, navi did NOT adapt. in fact they were GIVEN, both naga and darkseer first and 2nd game. lost first BADLY and won second right back.
when he had given them to IG in the final 2 games, he couldn't find an answer. and he pretty much dug his own coffin by giving ferarri his TA on top of naga and darkseer while not even drafting 1 aoe.
i will say credits to navi though, for their spectcular play in making LITTLE seem like ALOT. there are just many compositions where, if your skill level is about equal there should be NO WAY in hell do you win or even remotely kill 2-3 of the carrys. and they did just that in the final game where they made it seem like they had a chance, vs a pure AOE team with single spell target heroes. realistically speaking execution wise from naga's song, to dark seer's vaccum to instant wall and tide's ulti should be a 100% GG every single time no matter how good you are, but somehow they managed.
and to those only speaking on the terms of Na'Vi beating chinese teams in winners, did you guys forget prelims? navi lost to nearly every asian team, so despite beating them later on in winners, the score was practically even, if not more so in favor of the chinese. they were literally 1 game away from being shoved into losers, which we have seen time and time again, navi does lose those games vs teams like zenith, dk, etc.
On September 03 2012 16:53 Spykiller wrote: All in all what im trying to say is, I hope the Chinese scene doesent make a leap away from the western, because then DOTA will be boring. Not because Chinese teams play boring DOTA but because it will be THEIR game, and we get to borrow it, like it feels in SC2 now for me. I hope we can have in DOTA what we had in WC3 in its big days, when we had a lot of foreigners doing very good, and standing toe to toe with the Chinese and Korean players. It makes the tournaments more exciting
while i do agree somewhat? this is far too much about the western scene which is the very thing that i believe blindsided USA / European dota. I always believed the best deserve to be crowned the best, and i feel while navi "were" the best, they got comfortable. there was also alot of overconfidence coming from navi and the western scene in general, which made them stop innovating and being as hungry to get better overall and improve the current dota scene. literally no one in the western dota scene found an answer to morph which all the chinese went to, and wasted a ban because they couldn't figure out a proper answer. while all ehome did was farm a tiny to counter that.
and i don't agree this about being they're thing. if they are the current champions and absolute best, it means you have to go over to china and take it, not them coming here. it's the same in sc2. while you may not watch it anymore, i watch and support every MVP game and most MLG's and avoid all MLG's that contain only foreigners because i understand, there is no point to crown a champion who didn't beat the best to earn it and therefore boring to watch. simply put, if you love DOTA for what dota represents, you should be supporting the current best team, not a team just because they're the same race or overhyped. i'm not going to go into race issues but, there has been alot of blind bias towards navi even for USA, claiming NAVI as their own even though there is literally no association, which makes me think, people aren't here to cheer for the better team, they're here for trying to disprove that Chinese dota is better at any cost for whatever team who can do so.
there were also various comments made by tobi on the cast referring to "the chink in their armor" repeatedly. i mean i love tobi as much as the next guy, but when he brought that term up time and time again when he casted, it made me believe alot of the audience weren't there to witness who was truly the best, but just to try and prove the chinese were inferior.
none the less, when navi can hold a undefeated winning streak purely in the west without them getting pushed to earn it, it makes me think they're avoiding the best. no dota team should be undefeated for nearly a year if they're on par and are playing people of the same skill level. this is why i love the international, everyone plays on fair grounds and navi has actually for once, been pushed to prove themselves.
I actually agree with all of the points you made, it really feels like some people are trying to disprove that chinese dota is better at any cost, which makes me kinda sad. In all honesty, I like the team Navi, but I hate the fanbase they have. Most of their fans have started watching dota 2 from the first international, and since navi dominated dota 2 while the chinese were busy playing dota 1, some desperate fans are unable to admit even one good play from the chinese, simply because they dont want to see the truth: navi is not the best team in the world, there are actually a lot of other good teams out there. Bad thing about that is, most of those good teams come from one country, which leads to a lot of racism.
On September 03 2012 18:11 fearus wrote: Op confuses me, I can guarantee you that dendi/navi isn't really seen in god like status back over in the Chinese forums, which is like 60% of the scene and player base.
This!
plus who wouldn't like Navi/dendi after watching TI2 lol
Prior to TI2 i was also completely unaware of why there were so many fanboys of Dendi & Na'vi,
Post-TI2, i know exactly why, they're a great team. like holy shiznit they're good at this game, and they seem so happy and go-lucky in interviews, they jus come off as really positive and happy people, doing what they love. +Pudge. daaaaaaaaamn thats fun to watch.
Seems like a lot of you don't get how being a fan works. Most people don't become a fan of the best team, but more of the team you can relate to or has interesting personalities or shows the most interesting plays. We can relate to navi a lot better, because their from europe and because we can watch the streams and such. The chinese scene is just different ^^
PLUS: i'm pretty sure in the chinese forum there i no thread: "why so many iG/ferrari fanboys?". Can't we just all root for the team we like and enjoy the game?
I'm happy with the way things turned out. It pissed me off when I read fanboys comparing Dendi to BoxeR and FlaSh. After this event the hype surrounding him should come back to Earth. He's a good player, but he's only one part of a championship-level team.
well, think being a fan of the second best team in the world is okay :p
Sure IG will have/get a lot of fans after TI2, which is deserved. But na'vi getting second place is bound to get them a lot of fans as well.
The OP seems to think it would be better to be a fan of DK og LGD when this TI clearly showed they are worse than navi and getting 3rd for ldg and 4th? for DK.
Honestly the only thing I dislike is this mentality that every team from China are somehow better, when only 1 was able to beat navi
Chinese seem to be machines but I think it's part of the barrier in language and culture that they aren't really capable of showing their "personality" to the western audience.
Also, china is the rest of the world when it comes to dota. 567,000 viewers on game3 finals would prove that to be true LOL
On September 03 2012 19:21 Ramong wrote: well, think being a fan of the second best team in the world is okay :p
Sure IG will have/get a lot of fans after TI2, which is deserved. But na'vi getting second place is bound to get them a lot of fans as well.
The OP seems to think it would be better to be a fan of DK og LGD when this TI clearly showed they are worse than navi and getting 3rd for ldg and 4th? for DK.
Honestly the only thing I dislike is this mentality that every team from China are somehow better, when only 1 was able to beat navi
7 Asian teams were present and playing at the International(8 if you count AL I suppose, but they play western so much)
the top 8 consists out of 7 Asian teams(I guess you can make a case for AL, but AL plays western so much), China took 1st, 3d, fourth and some other places too China IS superior, Asian teams ARE superior , results show it.
Na'vi is the exception, they are just playing on a level beyond any Western team and most of the Asian teams, but in general the consensus does show that China is stronger and that Asian teams in general are stronger.
Why Dendi is popular should be easy He is a good player He is young(he is pretty much a kid, which is awesome). He is likeable(good personality, dances etc) He plays the flashy role(solo mid) He is slightly insane(makes big dives, big plays, sometimes dies for it, goes blink dagger force staff on like every hero) He plays on Na'vi, the only non-Asian team to make it far. Na'vi have a strong history of dominance in Dota 2. Na'vi plays very aggressive and with interesting picks(this is not on Dendi but it does make their games in general more attractive to the general public.
I don't understand the point of this discussion... Isn't being a fan the most irrational thing in the first place? But that's the beauty of sports, and competitions, people support a player/team based on emotions, not rational facts. So yeah, the chinese are better, so what? I was having a discussion with my chinese friends, and they don't think Na'Vi is awesome as I do, and it's great, because there's now a rivalry between us, and we'll enjoy watching East vs West games 10 times more!
TL;DR : Support whoever you want for whatever reasons you find, and let others do the same!
Why Dendi is popular should be easy He is a good player He is young(he is pretty much a kid, which is awesome). He is likeable(good personality, dances etc) He plays the flashy role(solo mid) He is slightly insane(makes big dives, big plays, sometimes dies for it, goes blink dagger force staff on like every hero) He plays on Na'vi, the only non-Asian team to make it far. Na'vi have a strong history of dominance in Dota 2. Na'vi plays very aggressive and with interesting picks(this is not on Dendi but it does make their games in general more attractive to the general public.
On September 03 2012 04:28 Crofteh wrote: People like his style of play. Like Chu in HoN, people liked his unconventional playstyle and he made a name for himself through doing it (Pudge and his domination during the International etc...) people come to the top of the pile through their unique playstyles or their personal character, just like Destiny in SC2, not the best player in the world, but he has character, Dendi has a unique playstyle and that's why I think a lot of people gravitate to him.
comparing Dendi to Destiny is kinda BM, cuz Dendis skill within his game ranks way higher than in Destinys case. He is one of the best players and has proven it very often. period.
You missed what I was saying. I said Destiny got his fame and character through his personality and his streaming although he isn't hugely skilled. Whereas Dendi gained his popularity through his unique playstyles and skill. There are different ways to do it even if he isn't the best at what he does (not saying Dendi isn't, just an example)
On September 02 2012 12:11 findingthelimit wrote: I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
Hey, I was hoping to see Zeus in the final.
On topic, NaVi are the best foreign team (meaning: non-Asian). Why Naniwa, Huk and Stephano are so popular in SC2, for example? They attempt to put up a fight to Koreans. You get the point. NaVi won The International 1, The Defense, and The Premier League - in which they went undefeated. NaVi are the laziest Dota 2 team, they almost never play and practice, which means they rely on raw talent a lot more than anyone else. Hint: that actually attracts fans like magnet. NaVi are crazy, they always pick unconventional heroes and somehow make them work. That always makes them look like the vulnerable underdog who somehow makes it through with some Cinderella miracle (they pretty much did that again in TI2, where they finished far ahead of what their initial results were promising). And Dendi is their mad dog, mad eye, goofy, funky, odd guy, who would deliver impossible plays out of impossible heroes. He's well liked as a person, and well liked as a player. He was featured (and still is) in a cover article on the front page of Team Liquid. Recently he got related with the song Gangnam Style, which made the front page of CNN, so that brings him even more popularity among wider range of people.
Bottom line is: it's not all about being "the best". Many times in sports people don't cheer for "the best", most solid player or team. No, they may even be despised by the fans. It's not something new or to be surprised by. People like to cheer for underdogs, weirdness, beautiful play (meaning: one that isn't supposed to win, but somehow still wins), talent, ingenuity and creativity, wits and quick thinking on the spot. Cheering for the solid and secure powerhouse is boring. And while it may also gain its fans, usually the bold pretender gets more support from the fans. NaVi and Dendi are people's heroes, it's not really that strange at all.
Personally, I think I'm more of a fan of Puppey than Dendi, by the way, perhaps one of the best captains. But all players of NaVi are amazing and unique in their own right.
just relax. This was the first time most people saw chinese dota 2 and people read a lot about the famous 4 protect 1 chinese strats so they have huge prejudices regarding their playstyle. Chinese/asian can make really interesting plays, people just need to see them play a lot more. I think the biggest proof of asian teams being versatile is when iG stomped Navi in 16 mins in the first game of their bo3.
I'm a noob and got into the game within the last year. Watching TI2, I became increasingly impressed with na'vi and their personality. I didn't really see much evidence that they are universally more skilled than their competition, but it seemed at times that they were more creative, which in my mind is a great aspect for an underdog team to have against a scary, mysterious, foreign threat.
With that being said, I noticed that the western audience and the crowd at TI2 was really embarrassingly pro-navi and anti-every chinese team, to the point that it was hard for it not to seem racist. To be clear, the american, politically correct definition of racism is somewhat different from the european one; it includes imperceptively small, subconscious racism that persists despite conscious attempts to ignore race. This was undoubtedly one of those cases. No matter what chinese teams did, the crowd simply remained silent, maybe giving a short round of pity claps. The crowd even booed at times, which i simply couldn't believe. Both the casters and the audience were obsessed with navi's unconventional picks, yet they both essentially ignored disruptor until it became clear that he was having a huge impact on the game. Navi's first blood taunt in game 2 of the grand finals was another case of favoritism; anyone else being so cocky would be regarded as rude, but when navi does it it's cool and doesn't hurt their reputation for humility. There's plenty of other examples, but in general, the casters consistently framed successes by navi as outsmarting or outplaying the opponents while framing successes by chinese teams as either inevitable or unfortunate mistakes on navi's part. It, as well as claims of "robotic" play, dehumanized the chinese.
I honestly can't imagine the thing being more hostile without provoking a public outcry. And to be completely honest, I felt myself influenced by it as well, which further detracted from my viewing experience. I hope that this stops, or at least someone can take a middle ground that I can feel comfortable about, because as it is the unspoken tension made it at times really unpleasant to watch. I'd really like to see some more experienced TLer's refuse to take a part in this debate and instead work to educate the forum on chinese dota so that we can appreciate future victories better. We want dota 2 to be a united community, not another stage for political tensions.
I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
On September 03 2012 19:21 Ramong wrote: well, think being a fan of the second best team in the world is okay :p
Sure IG will have/get a lot of fans after TI2, which is deserved. But na'vi getting second place is bound to get them a lot of fans as well.
The OP seems to think it would be better to be a fan of DK og LGD when this TI clearly showed they are worse than navi and getting 3rd for ldg and 4th? for DK.
Honestly the only thing I dislike is this mentality that every team from China are somehow better, when only 1 was able to beat navi
7 Asian teams were present and playing at the International(8 if you count AL I suppose, but they play western so much)
the top 8 consists out of 7 Asian teams(I guess you can make a case for AL, but AL plays western so much), China took 1st, 3d, fourth and some other places too China IS superior, Asian teams ARE superior , results show it.
but there is not such thing as china in dota. There is Chinese teams from china, but china itself ain't competing in dota. Its true that out of the top 8, 7 teams was Asian, but that is beside the point of this thread....
The op asked why people liked Na'vi and the answer is that they are the second best team in the world and that they did beat IG before the finals so they could easily have been the best.
And any team that do as well as na'vi does are bound to get fans, not like IG and LGD don't have fans either and only 1 of them beat navi.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
More? I'm not so sure boo-ing would occur there on this scale, but ok. I'd like to see Na'Vi play under those conditions too, to see if they're as mentally tough as the Chinese are.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Did you see voting on the finals? 85% Navi 15% iG. Navi has a massive fanbase.
Well Navi is the only non-Asian that can stand up to the Chinese overlords. Same like how Stephano is one of the few that can stand up to the Koreans in SC2 Though,the Chinese teams deserved more credit.
When Lumi said: " No one expected iG to make to the finals " I was like ????????? If you followed Dota,you would know iG is the strongest team in Dota 1 and arguably the strongest Chinese team in Dota 2. Heck, iG and LGD were the heavy favorites going TI2.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Did you see voting on the finals? 85% Navi 15% iG. Navi has a massive fanbase.
Well Navi is the only non-Asian that can stand up to the Chinese overlords. Same like how Stephano is one of the few that can stand up to the Koreans in SC2 Though,the Chinese teams deserved more credit.
When Lumi said: " No one expected iG to make to the finals " I was like ????????? If you followed Dota,you would know iG is the strongest team in Dota 1 and arguably the strongest Chinese team in Dota 2. Heck, iG and LGD were the heavy favorites going TI2.
Yeah, I knew the Chinese teams were entering TI2 as favorites because I watched the entire ACE league as well as G League games for the past 4 months. I knew beforehand that DK was in poor form and LGD and iG were just about even, and I was literally going to write Na'Vi off given the games they've shown for the past few months, while rooting for DK (out of sentiment) and LGD for their form.
Don't get me wrong, the final results do show that Na'Vi is more or less on par with LGD and iG (though iG has a way better head-to-head than Na'Vi). It's just that the atmosphere in Seattle seemed fairly poisonous for the Chinese.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
Yes, the crowd was more favourable towards Navi but by no means BM towarsd IG or LGD.... And I could get totally behind that Naga-Ult booing and felt it was awesome how engaged the crowd was into the game. It was not like people were booing constantly at good places from the chinese, that ult just annoyed the hell out of everyone after some time ^^.
Na'Vi playstyle is just so much more exciting than that of the Chinese teams. The LB finals between iG and LGD was the most boring bo3 set I've ever watched. Game 2, 30 minutes in and the score was 2-6 or something. It was methodical and mechanically sound play, but just so boring to watch. The 'like' bar showed it too, being something like 30% downvotes or something.
People are a fan of Dendi and Na'Vi because they are the only non-asian team that can perform well against them and Dendi is a good dota role-model (looks, personality, playstyle and attitude), not only that, but he's a very skilled player and usually makes "highlight reel-esque" plays Also, as far as the crowd treating the chinese unfair goes, It's hard to be a fan of somebody who doesn't have much in common with you (language, culture etc.), it's like watching faceless heroes play due to not knowing the chinese personalities, however, I actually thought the crowd was more than fair as far as cheering goes so I'm not sure what you guys are talking about :D
People have probably said this before in the thread, but the main reasons: 1. He is very good at DOTA2. 2. He streams alott, people can "interact" with him. 3. He played for the winners on the firs TI, and won, as theier ace player. 4. He is innovative/entertaining.
And ofc, you got fantastic players from China, basically whole IG, LDG etc. but people dont know that much about them, they dont stream, they dont post videos on YouTube etc. When you dont interact with the community, its hard to get fans
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
I've never watched Dota before, tell me this, do asian teams act like they do in SC2? I.E. don't bother to learn english? In that case, they are themselves at fault for alienating the audience. Dendi doesn't speak english. Stephano doesn't speak english. Most foreigners don't speak English. And yet they do because they are part of the community. People like MC try to string a couple of words together, and the crowd goes wild. Because he didn't just come to take their money, he came to be part of the community and entertain.
well mainly becouse they come up with solutions not just pick/ban(like robots) what is considered good, and prove everybody else wrong pretty impressive imo
I think most Na'Vi fans genuinely appreciate the team. Dendi has a good personality. Fanboyism comes with fanaticism, dissing on other teams and such; I don't really see that as the case.
On September 03 2012 21:05 CountChocula wrote: Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
TBF, even the Chinese commentary talked about how exciting foreign Dota is in the background of Chinese Dota. That isn't to say that Chinese Dota can't be exciting. Game 1 between LGD and iG was an awesome game and it finished with a stunning reversal. Game 2 and Game 3 not so much. Some of the other games that the Chinese played, such as EHOME's tiny is was fun as well. I find the boredom comes from AM vs Morphling farmfests.
The real difference between Navi and the chinese teams is exposure. The Navi games are more accessible than the Chinese ones. The fact that Navi was the only western team that could stand against the Chinese teams + Show Spoiler +
defeated DK, iG, LGD in Bo3
underscores why they are favorite. They are far better than the other teams in the US / EU scene.
Also iG is impressive, if there are three teams coming out of China that can play the level of iG and maintain aggressiveness, then even Chinese dota will be fun to watch.
The amount of anti-Chinese sentiment from the crowd was up to an uncomfortable point for me to see. It was quite obvious even from the commentators that they were siding with Na'Vi to win the games by the way the emphasized Na'Vi "big plays" and spoke more enthusiastically about the Na'Vi team. Yet, I don't see anyone calling them out on this while in SC2, such a commentator showing that much bias towards a player would be scolded.
Also, not a fan of Chinese teams? OK, I get that, but boo-ing them on stage? Not very cool. It even came to a point where during the intermission between games 2GD had to remind fans to be respectable and not boo the Chinese teams. Even Godz highlighted that it was obvious that the commentators favored Na'Vi.
A lot of Chinese DotA is based on the perfection of execution, strategy, and positioning as opposed to "flashy" play. While it may not be the most "exciting," those games that seemed like 1-sided stomp (iG vs Na'Vi WB G1) are the games that impress me the most because it shows a strategy that was executed to perfection. And just from watching that video, you can tell that the crowd is literally dead silent, while everyone knows that if it was Na'Vi who just did the ass-kicking, the crowd would be going ape-shit.
On September 03 2012 23:08 kethers wrote: The amount of anti-Chinese sentiment from the crowd was up to an uncomfortable point for me to see. [...] Also, not a fan of Chinese teams? OK, I get that, but boo-ing them on stage? Not very cool.
I can understand the commentator / crowd bias, Na'Vi were the most popular team in the tourney after all. Did people really boo the Chinese teams on stage? That's horrible if that happened. Is there any footage of this happening?
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
I've never watched Dota before, tell me this, do asian teams act like they do in SC2? I.E. don't bother to learn english? In that case, they are themselves at fault for alienating the audience. Dendi doesn't speak english. Stephano doesn't speak english. Most foreigners don't speak English. And yet they do because they are part of the community. People like MC try to string a couple of words together, and the crowd goes wild. Because he didn't just come to take their money, he came to be part of the community and entertain.
I was bolding the bad parts of your post to respond to but I ended up bolding the whole thing.
On September 03 2012 23:08 kethers wrote: The amount of anti-Chinese sentiment from the crowd was up to an uncomfortable point for me to see. [...] Also, not a fan of Chinese teams? OK, I get that, but boo-ing them on stage? Not very cool.
I can understand the commentator / crowd bias, Na'Vi were the most popular team in the tourney after all. Did people really boo the Chinese teams on stage? That's horrible if that happened. Is there any footage of this happening?
From what I've seen the boo'ing was pretty much everytime a team used Naga Siren SotS. Later in grand finals, when XBOCT used SotS the boo'ing was clearly not as loud.
What disturbed me the most about the audience was after iG won and the trophy was handed over, there was just minor cheering from the majority of them. Nobody acknowledging iG's performance at all, just showed how ignorant some fans are. I can assure, that if Na´Vi won everyone there would have been going wild. This is just wrong in so many ways.
On September 03 2012 23:08 kethers wrote: The amount of anti-Chinese sentiment from the crowd was up to an uncomfortable point for me to see. [...] Also, not a fan of Chinese teams? OK, I get that, but boo-ing them on stage? Not very cool.
I can understand the commentator / crowd bias, Na'Vi were the most popular team in the tourney after all. Did people really boo the Chinese teams on stage? That's horrible if that happened. Is there any footage of this happening?
From what I've seen the boo'ing was pretty much everytime a team used Naga Siren SotS. Later in grand finals, when XBOCT used SotS the boo'ing was clearly not as loud.
What disturbed me the most about the audience was after iG won and the trophy was handed over, there was just minor cheering from the majority of them. Nobody acknowledging iG's performance at all, just showed how ignorant some fans are. I can assure, that if Na´Vi won everyone there would have been going wild. This is just wrong in so many ways.
People would have cheered louder if the team they were rooting for won? A most heinous crime to be sure!
On September 03 2012 23:08 kethers wrote: The amount of anti-Chinese sentiment from the crowd was up to an uncomfortable point for me to see. [...] Also, not a fan of Chinese teams? OK, I get that, but boo-ing them on stage? Not very cool.
I can understand the commentator / crowd bias, Na'Vi were the most popular team in the tourney after all. Did people really boo the Chinese teams on stage? That's horrible if that happened. Is there any footage of this happening?
From what I've seen the boo'ing was pretty much everytime a team used Naga Siren SotS. Later in grand finals, when XBOCT used SotS the boo'ing was clearly not as loud.
What disturbed me the most about the audience was after iG won and the trophy was handed over, there was just minor cheering from the majority of them. Nobody acknowledging iG's performance at all, just showed how ignorant some fans are. I can assure, that if Na´Vi won everyone there would have been going wild. This is just wrong in so many ways.
People would have cheered louder if the team they were rooting for won? A most heinous crime to be sure!
What he meant was people still should have courtesy and manner to the team who actually won. Maybe I need to rewatch it, but if I remember it right, there was booing when iG won the final game too.
People would have cheered louder if the team they were rooting for won? A most heinous crime to be sure!
I probably expressed myself a bit unfortunate there. Just look for yourself:
Now tell me how this isn't shitty, not to say disrespectful, behaviour towards iG. Each Na´Vi player was being nice, shaking hands & congratulating, while the crowd is full of immate fanboys, not aknowledging iG's performance at all. Now refer back to the WDC video of Na´Vi vs DK, which obviously was held in China. Remember: iG won the freaking TI2. Na´Vi just took a single game of DK in the quarterfinals and the crowd wasn't even the same size.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
I've never watched Dota before, tell me this, do asian teams act like they do in SC2? I.E. don't bother to learn english? In that case, they are themselves at fault for alienating the audience. Dendi doesn't speak english. Stephano doesn't speak english. Most foreigners don't speak English. And yet they do because they are part of the community. People like MC try to string a couple of words together, and the crowd goes wild. Because he didn't just come to take their money, he came to be part of the community and entertain.
I was bolding the bad parts of your post to respond to but I ended up bolding the whole thing.
that is not a proper way to converse with people, especially since what i point out is pretty basic psychology and i even used examples that are familiar to us all to illustrate my point.
Again, you are complaining that the crowd favorite got more cheering than the other team. People have favorite teams. People cheer louder for those favorite teams. People don't cheer as loud when their favorite team is beaten. That's not some grave miscarriage of the competitive spirit, that's just the way sports (and esports) work.
Let me initially state, I do not think highly of you upon writing this. Your article makes sweeping generalizations and you seem to have an intention of provoking people. When you make an article with "fanboys" in the title, and put a smiley face in your first line, you need to realize that people who fall into the designated category will be upset, including myself.
So lets break down your post (Aww, I realized that you really only put one paragraph about the topic):
my question is, why na'vi, and why dendi in particular? there are many good players, some of them, in my opinion, are far better than dendi. yet from what i've read, it seems like dendi is getting so much more attention that he deserves... did i miss out on something significant he did, or are european / americans just less conscious of the pro-chinese-dota players? or have the chinese teams less dominant now? from what i know, seems like DK and LGD are still doing pretty well...
This is a complicated question, I think you are thinking to yourself that the answer is simple. >People must be hopping aboard a band-wagon
You make two arguments: 1) Dendi isn't the "best" player. 2) Chinese teams are really good as well.
Both of these statements are complete idiocy. 1) People will quantify players however they desire, it's not up to you to decide for everyone else that others are better than him. You simply cannot say that ferrari_430 is better than Dendi, they are both excellent players. Claiming one is more skilled than the other is nonsensical because in a team game, there's no real way of proving it either way. 2) I do not want to root for purely chinese teams. (In SC2 I have favourite foreigners, and favourite Koreans). The reasons for this vary from person to person, but it is not racist to do so. Chinese teams do not play in as many leagues that I watch, therefore I know less about them, and therefore I care less. Chinese teams show FAR less team spirit and emotion in the tournament, similiar to most Korean starcraft players. Chinese teams dominate the top levels of competition, I enjoy cheering for the underdog. I'm sure there are many more reasons why it's completely justified to root for someone other than the "best" team, which often ends up being asian in esports. And to say someone who is cheering for a team other than the "best" team (again let me say that using the term 'best' in the manner you do is complete idiocy) is a "fanboy" is completely ignorant.
The reason why there are so many Na`Vi "fanboys" is simple, it's the same reason why many people cheer for EG in Dota2 and in SC2. Some people have different values than you. Not everyone cares about the same things as you, you cannot say "I think this is what makes the best team, therefore everyone should like the same things as me."
People like Na`Vi because they are good players, who do fun things and entertain, who are capable of winning tournaments, who embody the non-chinese dota scene. You're a fucking moron for saying people can't like whatever team they want, and making the blanket statement that everyone who likes Na`Vi is a fanboy is equally ignorant.
Dendi IS NOT the Flash of Dota2, but he's an outstanding player. The fact that you think you can quantify other players as being better and expect everyone to agree with you displays your ignorance more than anything else. I don't care if you've played dota for 27 years, and have won more money than every other player combined based on your amazing skills, no single person has the ability or right to declare which players are better than others.
Was writing this worth my time? Probably not, I doubt you'll even read it. I put the important part in bold so you get the gist. Please think before you write in the future.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
I've never watched Dota before, tell me this, do asian teams act like they do in SC2? I.E. don't bother to learn english? In that case, they are themselves at fault for alienating the audience. Dendi doesn't speak english. Stephano doesn't speak english. Most foreigners don't speak English. And yet they do because they are part of the community. People like MC try to string a couple of words together, and the crowd goes wild. Because he didn't just come to take their money, he came to be part of the community and entertain.
I was bolding the bad parts of your post to respond to but I ended up bolding the whole thing.
U can say whatever u want but if they were to even speak a word of english they would have gotten a lot more fans with this tournament like he says MC has been since the beginning of his career scratching english in interviews, tournaments after tournaments he would speak in english and at the end of day he's the most popular korean among the foreign community.
You can't ask for cheers when there is no kills for minutes and that the players seems so out of place, u can be shy but its like being disrespectful to the crowd. In in the offline event of the Iron Squid it was only koreans and it went rly well even in TvT and ZvZ. In the olympics every champion does multiple interviews and even if they dont know english ( and a large majority bothered to learn it) they always put scratch of it at the end.
Perhaps the organisation was at fault too, they should have done the interviews at stage and not in a robot like fashion but u can't blame for audience for not responding to good plays if they seem to be executed by aliens who cannot communicate with you on any manner and dont even give a sign that they want to.
Now tell me how this isn't shitty, not to say disrespectful, behaviour towards iG. Each Na´Vi player was being nice, shaking hands & congratulating, while the crowd is full of immate fanboys, not aknowledging iG's performance at all. Now refer back to the WDC video of Na´Vi vs DK, which obviously was held in China. Remember: iG won the freaking TI2. Na´Vi just took a single game of DK in the quarterfinals and the crowd wasn't even the same size.
What? I saw nothing shitty or disrespectful here. Seriously. People cheering the end of the game. People cheering for the team when Gabe announcement made. People chanting IG. People chanting China (probably mostly the Chinese in the audience I guess). People cheering again at holding up the shield.
On September 04 2012 00:46 hacklebeast wrote: Again, you are complaining that the crowd favorite got more cheering than the other team. People have favorite teams. People cheer louder for those favorite teams. People don't cheer as loud when their favorite team is beaten. That's not some grave miscarriage of the competitive spirit, that's just the way sports (and esports) work.
Okay let me say it like this: Even if Na´Vi are crowd favorite. If they would have lost to CLG in the grand finals for example, they would have been going wild. Thath's at least how I see it.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
I've never watched Dota before, tell me this, do asian teams act like they do in SC2? I.E. don't bother to learn english? In that case, they are themselves at fault for alienating the audience. Dendi doesn't speak english. Stephano doesn't speak english. Most foreigners don't speak English. And yet they do because they are part of the community. People like MC try to string a couple of words together, and the crowd goes wild. Because he didn't just come to take their money, he came to be part of the community and entertain.
I was bolding the bad parts of your post to respond to but I ended up bolding the whole thing.
U can say whatever u want but if they were to even speak a word of english they would have gotten a lot more fans with this tournament like he says MC has been since the beginning of his career scratching english in interviews, tournaments after tournaments he would speak in english and at the end of day he's the most popular korean among the foreign community.
You can't ask for cheers when there is no kills for minutes and that the players seems so out of place, u can be shy but its like being disrespectful to the crowd. In in the offline event of the Iron Squid it was only koreans and it went rly well even in TvT and ZvZ. In the olympics every champion does multiple interviews and even if they dont know english ( and a large majority bothered to learn it) they always put scratch of it at the end.
Perhaps the organisation was at fault too, they should have done the interviews at stage and not in a robot like fashion but u can't blame for audience for not responding to good plays if they seem to be executed by aliens who cannot communicate with you on any manner and dont even give a sign that they want to.
I think you have to realize that the English proficency of many Chinese and Koreans are quite limited. Although English might not be a native language for a lot of foreigners pros, they are much better than the Chinese and Koreans.
By your reasoning, if TI3 were to be held in China next year, I expect all the foreigners teams to try to speak Chinese in their interviews? Honestly, the most you will get is maybe a hello and thanks which most Korean and Chinese pros do say when they are on stage.
On September 04 2012 00:46 hacklebeast wrote: Again, you are complaining that the crowd favorite got more cheering than the other team. People have favorite teams. People cheer louder for those favorite teams. People don't cheer as loud when their favorite team is beaten. That's not some grave miscarriage of the competitive spirit, that's just the way sports (and esports) work.
Okay let me say it like this: Even if Na´Vi are crowd favorite. If they would have lost to CLG in the grand finals for example, they would have been going wild. Thath's at least how I see it.
so ? if they dont want to go wild because iG won, so what ?
Watching Navi play Naga Siren was hilarious. When Chinese teams used her and her Ult it was met with unrelenting BOO's, but when Navi used her ult you could tell the crowd was going "wait, are we supposed to boo or cheer?" rofl
One of the reasons to like dendi is that he is humble (he himself thinks he's the most overrated player), he has been in a top team since earlier than 2010. 2010 he was in DTS and knocked out EHOME from groupstages at a chinese tournament.
And about the crowd, to me it sounds like they are chanting iG and they cheer a lot as well, so the crowd wasnt disrespectfull at all.
also, I guess they didn't interview him on stage but from the video interviews which they showed at the event ChuaN's english is far better than MC's for example.
On September 04 2012 02:02 AREUHAPPYNOW wrote: One of the reasons to like dendi is that he is humble (he himself thinks he's the most overrated player), he has been in a top team since earlier than 2010. 2010 he was in DTS and knocked out EHOME from groupstages at a chinese tournament.
And about the crowd, to me it sounds like they are chanting iG and they cheer a lot as well, so the crowd wasnt disrespectfull at all.
Im not from the dota scene, nor have i ever played alot of it, but all i hear about dendi makes me think he is a cocky twat, like, everything i see about him portrays this lol. I browse Dota forums and news etc and see this.
For instance, in this thread there is him dancing across stage before he even plays his games, If you were on the other team, what would you think?
Like i said, not from the dota scene but it really comes across this way for me / outsiders. Maybe ive seen and heard the wrong information!
On September 04 2012 02:02 AREUHAPPYNOW wrote: One of the reasons to like dendi is that he is humble (he himself thinks he's the most overrated player), he has been in a top team since earlier than 2010. 2010 he was in DTS and knocked out EHOME from groupstages at a chinese tournament.
And about the crowd, to me it sounds like they are chanting iG and they cheer a lot as well, so the crowd wasnt disrespectfull at all.
Im not from the dota scene, nor have i ever played alot of it, but all i hear about dendi makes me think he is a cocky twat, like, everything i see about him portrays this lol. I browse Dota forums and news etc and see this.
For instance, in this thread there is him dancing across stage before he even plays his games, If you were on the other team, what would you think?
Like i said, not from the dota scene but it really comes across this way for me / outsiders. Maybe ive seen and heard the wrong information!
From everything I've seen, he just seems kinda goofy :/
its because dota2 need a poster child and he fits it, i do think many other chinese/hk players are much better just don't dance on stage so they don't get the coverage.
On September 04 2012 01:54 snarl wrote: Watching Navi play Naga Siren was hilarious. When Chinese teams used her and her Ult it was met with unrelenting BOO's, but when Navi used her ult you could tell the crowd was going "wait, are we supposed to boo or cheer?" rofl
They did boo Navi's naga ult at least once that I recall, when it was used to sleep and just get the hell out. There was also another instance, the big sleep, vacuum, ravage that got turned around by Navi vs iG in that game before the grand finals where the sleep wasn't booed.
When there's a big teamfight going on, and a siren song is used defensively, it's just massively anticlimatic. The fight just suddenly stops, and everyone walks away.
Gogokodo: Exactly, when the naga ult is used offensively, it's very different. In that Navi vs iG game in semifinals, you could hear the gasps as it looked like Navi were completely caught out, which turned into cheers when they turn it around.
On September 04 2012 00:46 hacklebeast wrote: Again, you are complaining that the crowd favorite got more cheering than the other team. People have favorite teams. People cheer louder for those favorite teams. People don't cheer as loud when their favorite team is beaten. That's not some grave miscarriage of the competitive spirit, that's just the way sports (and esports) work.
Okay let me say it like this: Even if Na´Vi are crowd favorite. If they would have lost to CLG in the grand finals for example, they would have been going wild. Thath's at least how I see it.
An american team would have gotten more applause than a chinese team from a crowd in seattle? NO WAY!
The point is (western) people cant identify themselves with the chinese teams because they show no personality or any signs of willingness to communicate with the crowd. Just take MC for example. His english is bad but he doesnt care and still tries to communicate with the western fans while even showing his personality. I have no doubt that if chinese dota players would act the same they would get to hear louder cheering at live events. As long as that doesnt happen you cant really expect the crowd to go wild just because iG won. Most people dont cheer for the best team they want the team they can identify with to win.
I really can't see with people thinking 'Dendi' or Na'Vi when dota is mentioned, don't we need super popular players and teams to promote esports? Its like if someone just blindly said MVP is the best player in the world even if they only played starcraft casually and didn't really watch. Are you offended by that? do you always feel the need to argue with that person? If you do then you've got some serious issues. You can't come with your 'hipster' attitude saying there are way better chinese players/teams that people don't know nearly as well as they know Dendi or Na'Vi
Just let people love who they love and just face the fact that Dendi IS the most popular Dota 2 player, and on top of that is EXCELLENT at the game, and streams almost every single day. I see no problem with a player who loves dota, and practices his ass off in it as a 'celebrity' in the dota community
Idk if this has been said yet, but dendi is a very out of the box player, he makes plays. He isn't overrated at all, people like the carry role, and he is AMAZING at pulling thigs out of the box. 3 man pudge hooks, differences in play styles, he, for all intents and purposes, sets a lot of the western meta. Na'Vi also isn't unknown, their CS:1.6 team was amazing, their DotA2 team is now also the most dominant western team by a wide margin. It makes sense that a lot of people, including myself, would be a Na'Vi fanboy. On the other hand I also really like LGD and IG, so people can enjoy multiple teams. Back to Dendi though, another big part of the fanboyism for him is that he forces weird bans, he forces teams to ban pudge, he forces teams to ban relatively non-standard characters. Dendi also creates different builds that should not work, but do work because he IS the meta for us westerners. I don't have a TON of experience in DotA, but from the International, and from watching streams, this is what seems to be the case.
On September 04 2012 00:46 hacklebeast wrote: Again, you are complaining that the crowd favorite got more cheering than the other team. People have favorite teams. People cheer louder for those favorite teams. People don't cheer as loud when their favorite team is beaten. That's not some grave miscarriage of the competitive spirit, that's just the way sports (and esports) work.
Okay let me say it like this: Even if Na´Vi are crowd favorite. If they would have lost to CLG in the grand finals for example, they would have been going wild. Thath's at least how I see it.
so ? if they dont want to go wild because iG won, so what ?
Na'vi gets applause for taking any tower or kill, while iG gets nothing (or even boos sometimes). How would you feel if you were iG?
Both the crowd and the commentators were remarkably very anti-China. To the point where it was becoming abit rude. This was clearly evident in not just the Na'vi games, but in the games of Orange and Zenith vs China as well.
And the argument of Na'vi being more entertaining is hilarious, especially considering Navi ran Anti-Mage at least something like 8 times this entire tournament (and a vast majority of his usage was in the WB finals against other Chinese teams).
And it's not just the fact that there's not enough coverage; there's coverage. It was being displayed during the tournament. Except everyone pretty much stopped watching (look at the numbers, when IG vs LGD came up, the ingame client numbers and the stream numbers dropped off tremendously). It's that people are holding a certain bias against them for really no reason at all.
even though i think dendi is overrated he was their best player this international. his rubik was absolutely insane in the winner bracket games.
dota is a game where being pumped up elevates your game alot. imagine if your teammates does some insane move in a teamfight it makes your whole team go insane over it. that gives you alot of confidence and you play better. just imagine being one of na'vi knowing that whatever happens during pick stages dendi is there mid as an anchor in case anything goes wrong.
On September 03 2012 20:38 Oktyabr wrote: I just felt really bad for the chinese that whenever the shoutcasters asked who were cheering for whichever chinese team, virtually no one responded. That's just so queer. Were there really absolutely no supporters of Chinese DOTA teams or were they all cowed by the Na'vi fanbase? It's unfortunate, really. It's almost like everyone is against the Chinese.
Imagine the games where held in china.
The same thing would happen... if not MORE
The chinese are crazy rabbit fanbois.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how it is in China...
Chinese e-sports audience seems much more cultured and actually cheers for the away team when they do well like when Na`Vi traveled to China for WDC 2011. Check out the ending moments of when Na`Vi took a playoff match against DK with Dendi Pudge.
I've never watched Dota before, tell me this, do asian teams act like they do in SC2? I.E. don't bother to learn english? In that case, they are themselves at fault for alienating the audience. Dendi doesn't speak english. Stephano doesn't speak english. Most foreigners don't speak English. And yet they do because they are part of the community. People like MC try to string a couple of words together, and the crowd goes wild. Because he didn't just come to take their money, he came to be part of the community and entertain.
I was bolding the bad parts of your post to respond to but I ended up bolding the whole thing.
U can say whatever u want but if they were to even speak a word of english they would have gotten a lot more fans with this tournament like he says MC has been since the beginning of his career scratching english in interviews, tournaments after tournaments he would speak in english and at the end of day he's the most popular korean among the foreign community.
You can't ask for cheers when there is no kills for minutes and that the players seems so out of place, u can be shy but its like being disrespectful to the crowd. In in the offline event of the Iron Squid it was only koreans and it went rly well even in TvT and ZvZ. In the olympics every champion does multiple interviews and even if they dont know english ( and a large majority bothered to learn it) they always put scratch of it at the end.
Perhaps the organisation was at fault too, they should have done the interviews at stage and not in a robot like fashion but u can't blame for audience for not responding to good plays if they seem to be executed by aliens who cannot communicate with you on any manner and dont even give a sign that they want to.
I think you have to realize that the English proficency of many Chinese and Koreans are quite limited. Although English might not be a native language for a lot of foreigners pros, they are much better than the Chinese and Koreans.
By your reasoning, if TI3 were to be held in China next year, I expect all the foreigners teams to try to speak Chinese in their interviews? Honestly, the most you will get is maybe a hello and thanks which most Korean and Chinese pros do say when they are on stage.
Well, i think u miss the point that english is the internationnal language, i can speak with you when we are miles apart and i think its amazing, we can understand eachother regardless of the country we live in. Its one of the good things about being a gamer u get way better in english and u get to be friends with people from other countries. If u dont share 1 similar language with someone its rly hard to get to know them / to like them (and always distant because its translation, without the human feeling).
So in my opinion if at least 1 person in each of the chinese team could speak english not even fluently it would be amazing and would up their popularity a lot. Imagine all the jokes / misunderstandings / strange and funny accents, thats what builds up charisma. U can also add the attitude, a huge smile and a funny ceremony is always better than nothing.
The chinese teams did nothing of that and if TI3 were to be in China, i don't exept foreigners to speak chinese. But i exept them to niha and not to be expresionless, smile when they cross the fans and put on a rly good image ! They won't look like antisocial expressionless nerds like half of the world want gamers to be but be cheerful, funny and cool.
Group A - Na'Vi fans, who like them for their good values, such as + Show Spoiler +
On September 03 2012 19:44 Kipsate wrote: Why Dendi is popular should be easy He is a good player He is young(he is pretty much a kid, which is awesome). He is likeable(good personality, dances etc) He plays the flashy role(solo mid) He is slightly insane(makes big dives, big plays, sometimes dies for it, goes blink dagger force staff on like every hero) He plays on Na'vi, the only non-Asian team to make it far. Na'vi have a strong history of dominance in Dota 2. Na'vi plays very aggressive and with interesting picks(this is not on Dendi but it does make their games in general more attractive to the general public.
On September 03 2012 11:06 hacklebeast wrote: For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
You guys keep arguing your points, but what you don't understand is, everyone gets it already. I'm a Na'Vi (and Zenith) fan, you're a Na'Vi fan, most of us here and in the audience are Na'Vi fans. What you're failing to understand is...
Group B - Na'Vi fans, who are simply supporting them for retarded reasons such as + Show Spoiler +
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
^ If you look closely at this idiotic post, you can see the poster used the word "we", as if ALL Na'Vi fans share the same reason he does, when in fact, we don't.
Also known as "Chinese DotA so boring lolol". Completely forgetting games like Na'Vi's 16 minute GG to iG, or LGD vs iG hitting over 60 kills in 40 minutes, or the several Xboct AM farm games, just because the players are "chinks". /sarcasm on Guess what, a Chinese team won. Oh, and they completely outplayed Na'Vi. So you know what that means? DotA2 sucks as a spectator/e-Sport game, where the "boring" teams win. Mind blown! /sarcasm off
Group C - The Na'Vi anti-fans
Get over yourself. Close to half the viewers for TI2 were from China (275000 outside China, 500000 when including China). I'm pretty sure iG has a lot of support on their home soil. Yeah, TI2 was hosted Seattle, sucks for you, but get over it because I'm pretty sure that million dollar check was worth the boos that iG got. Team Liquid is an English forum, so if you want to hate on Na'Vi, I'm sure your thread will be much more appreciated on a .cn website. + Show Spoiler +
On September 04 2012 02:27 Skiblet wrote: I really can't see with people thinking 'Dendi' or Na'Vi when dota is mentioned, don't we need super popular players and teams to promote esports? Its like if someone just blindly said MVP is the best player in the world even if they only played starcraft casually and didn't really watch. Are you offended by that? do you always feel the need to argue with that person? If you do then you've got some serious issues. You can't come with your 'hipster' attitude saying there are way better chinese players/teams that people don't know nearly as well as they know Dendi or Na'Vi
Just let people love who they love and just face the fact that Dendi IS the most popular Dota 2 player, and on top of that is EXCELLENT at the game, and streams almost every single day. I see no problem with a player who loves dota, and practices his ass off in it as a 'celebrity' in the dota community
Yeah... stop trying to convince Na'Vi fans that Na'Vi isn't the best, because they don't give a rats ass.
On September 04 2012 03:22 adi_hsd wrote: even though i think dendi is overrated he was their best player this international. his rubik was absolutely insane in the winner bracket games.
dota is a game where being pumped up elevates your game alot. imagine if your teammates does some insane move in a teamfight it makes your whole team go insane over it. that gives you alot of confidence and you play better. just imagine being one of na'vi knowing that whatever happens during pick stages dendi is there mid as an anchor in case anything goes wrong.
?
Dendi's Rubick was great, but alot of people forget how well LOH was doing with virtually no help when he was left on an island in the offlanes. LOH won at least 2 seperate games for Navi alone on Enigma, and contributed far more on a consistent basis than Dendi did the entire time. He was the literal backbone of Navi, and without him I doubt I see them going very far. Puppey when he was on a jungle was capable of literally taking over games by himself. Dendi really only had a couple of really big plays, but LOH not only had multiple instances of big plays, he also was far more solid and consistent than Dendi. There were at least 6 separate games where Dendi not only lost mid, he was getting crushed until he got help from his team.
On September 04 2012 03:24 Xpace wrote: So, to sum up this thread, we have:
Group A - Na'Vi fans, who like them for their good values, such as + Show Spoiler +
On September 03 2012 19:44 Kipsate wrote: Why Dendi is popular should be easy He is a good player He is young(he is pretty much a kid, which is awesome). He is likeable(good personality, dances etc) He plays the flashy role(solo mid) He is slightly insane(makes big dives, big plays, sometimes dies for it, goes blink dagger force staff on like every hero) He plays on Na'vi, the only non-Asian team to make it far. Na'vi have a strong history of dominance in Dota 2. Na'vi plays very aggressive and with interesting picks(this is not on Dendi but it does make their games in general more attractive to the general public.
On September 03 2012 11:06 hacklebeast wrote: For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
You guys keep arguing your points, but what you don't understand is, everyone gets it already. I'm a Na'Vi (and Zenith) fan, you're a Na'Vi fan, most of us here and in the audience are Na'Vi fans. What you're failing to understand is...
Group B - Na'Vi fans, who are simply supporting them for retarded reasons such as + Show Spoiler +
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
^ If you look closely at this idiotic post, you can see the poster used the word "we", as if ALL Na'Vi fans share the same reason he does, when in fact, we don't.
Also known as "Chinese DotA so boring lolol". Completely forgetting games like Na'Vi's 16 minute GG to iG, or LGD vs iG hitting over 60 kills in 40 minutes, or the several Xboct AM farm games, just because the players are "chinks". /sarcasm on Guess what, a Chinese team won. Oh, and they completely outplayed Na'Vi. So you know what that means? DotA2 sucks as a spectator/e-Sport game, where the "boring" teams win. Mind blown! /sarcasm off
Group C - The Na'Vi anti-fans
Get over yourself. Close to half the viewers for TI2 were from China (275000 outside China, 500000 when including China). I'm pretty sure iG has a lot of support on their home soil. Yeah, TI2 was hosted Seattle, sucks for you, but get over it because I'm pretty sure that million dollar check was worth the boos that iG got. Team Liquid is an English forum, so if you want to hate on Na'Vi, I'm sure your thread will be much more appreciated on a .cn website. + Show Spoiler +
On September 04 2012 02:27 Skiblet wrote: I really can't see with people thinking 'Dendi' or Na'Vi when dota is mentioned, don't we need super popular players and teams to promote esports? Its like if someone just blindly said MVP is the best player in the world even if they only played starcraft casually and didn't really watch. Are you offended by that? do you always feel the need to argue with that person? If you do then you've got some serious issues. You can't come with your 'hipster' attitude saying there are way better chinese players/teams that people don't know nearly as well as they know Dendi or Na'Vi
Just let people love who they love and just face the fact that Dendi IS the most popular Dota 2 player, and on top of that is EXCELLENT at the game, and streams almost every single day. I see no problem with a player who loves dota, and practices his ass off in it as a 'celebrity' in the dota community
Yeah... stop trying to convince Na'Vi fans that Na'Vi isn't the best, because they don't give a rats ass.
Nice post. Yeah basically I was just a little sad when LGD and iG had basically 0 support from the audience. Sure Dendi's Rubick plays were super impressive, Puppey's drafting was awesome, and LoH had some amazing support play but I was more impressed with LGD's ridiculous undefeated streak and it's just sad that the entire audience was biased against the Chinese teams. But anyways, amazing play from all the teams and this was probably the most entertaining E-sports weekend for me ever. This tournament was fucking amazing.
Your thread about navi fanboys felt like a jealous why don't you support the team and players I am a fanboy off QQ. Who are you to tell people who to root for?;o
But Xspace pretty much hit the nail on the coffin. A big part of Dendi's popularity revolves around the story lines, fun to watch play style, and his likeable personality. So even if someone is better than Dendi but is boring otherwise, he still may have less fans just like in ALL other sports (otherwise ppl would root for only 1 team/player per sport, right?).
Also Dendi is not only more popular in the West than chinese players, he's more popular than any other Western player as well, so it's not simply a race bias thing.
On September 04 2012 04:54 ahswtini wrote: I don't understand this thread. What are you trying to say, you have to cheer for both teams equally? That's some class A socialism right there.
I think the OP mainly wants people to respect the Chinese scene especially considering that historically the Chinese scene has been remarkably stronger outside of a very few exceptions. You could tell from the crowd, spectators, shoutcasters/commentators, etc. that there was a huge amount of bias that was borderline disrespect for both IG and LGD.
People saying things like Dendi being the best player in the world when he isn't even the best solo mid in the tournament (430 at times utterly crapped on Dendi) annoy people. People saying things like XBOCT being a better farmer than Sylar, Zhou, and Burning when he is by far the weakest player on his team is pretty ridiculous. It's when people have a strong disregard for the high skill and discipline of the Chinese teams (such as their safe conservative style) that it becomes disrespectful.
It's actually very funny too, because the Koreans in Starcraft never have a huge problem with this, even when they practically couldn't speak much English at all. Flash, Jaedong, and other KesPA pros for example never really interacted with the non-Korean fans all that much at all up until VERY recently, and yet people have a ton of respect and admiration for their skill, despite the fact that there's no real connection. MVP for example is a HUGE fan favorite, and yet he plays a very safe and conservative style. He doesn't even talk all that much English from what I remember, and is actually not all that great in front of crowds for the most part. Yet no one in SC2 ever disrespects MVP to the level that quite a few DotA fans do in relation to the Chinese vs Foreign fan interaction.
^ idk where you are getting this from? a few uninformed posts here and there or a few excited posts from fans, which I don't see anything wrong with. Again, same happens in other sports. I used to root for my soccer team chanting how they are the best even though I knew they wouldn't win the championship.
I got a sense that Chinese teams had and got plenty of respect. Even being knew to the scene, I quickly realized that the Chinese are the teams to beat and didn't think Navi would even go this far, because I read everywhere about how strong Chinese teams are. Only happened because the Chinese were given due respect.
I heard chants for Chinese teams and people clapping for good plays for them as well. Yes, not as much as Na'Vi, but it was still there (though didn't watch final with sound). I heard only 1 major booo and even that was directed more at Naga ult than anything else.
Sure majority of the crowd cheered for their favorites a lot more, but it wasn't like they completely shit on everything other teams did. get over it
edit: and to be frank, navi did beat DK, IG, and LGN, and then lost to IG of course. But they did go 3-1 against Chinese power houses in the play offs of the most important tournament of the year. So all this talk about how Chinese are sooo much better and deserve much more respect than Na'Vi is in my opinion even more biased, silly and disrespectful to Na'Vi. You are basing this on what? Their 2nd finish at the biggest tourney in Dota history, ahead of LGN and DK, and even taking a series off the champs?
Obvious fanbait thread. Players don't draw people into a game because they're necessarily "better" than anyone else. Personality is almost as big of a factor, if not bigger, as player skill when it comes to gaining fans. Dendi's hilarious, good-looking, and a great guy in general (IIRC, he bought a Chinese team dinner).
It's kind of weird to ask this kind of question on Teamliquid. If anyone's familiar with the separation between eastern and western scenes, it should be Starcraft fans.
Lol this thread is like a melting pot of people trying to justify their racism. Obviously people identify better with people similar to them: whether it be color, nationality, or playstyle. There's nothing wrong with cheering for a team because they are similar to you. Look at the 2012 Olympics in Great Britain this year. The cheers for USA and Great Britain were much greater than the cheers for the Chinese or other Asian teams. It's because the British are more easily able to identify with the Americans due to a common culture. Look at the NBA, where Jeremy Lin's sudden appearance triggered a massive influx of Asian fans, many who were never fans of the sport before he came along. Or just look at college where people tend to congregate in cliques of their own race. This is just how the world works and there's nothing wrong with it.
It's silly to justify racism by saying stuff like, "Chinese teams are boring and play boring compositions" when teams like Navi played "4 protect 1 comps" as their bread and butter. And to everyone saying that the Chinese have no personality, did you not see Zhou jumping onto Puppey, who lifted him up after IG won in the grandfinals?
On September 04 2012 05:07 iokke wrote: ^ idk where you are getting this from? a few uninformed posts here and there or a few excited posts from fans, which I don't see anything wrong with. Again, same happens in other sports. I used to root for my soccer team chanting how they are the best even though I knew they wouldn't win the championship.
I got a sense that Chinese teams had and got plenty of respect. Even being knew to the scene, I quickly realized that the Chinese are the teams to beat and didn't think Navi would even go this far, because I read everywhere about how strong Chinese teams are. Only happened because the Chinese were given due respect.
I heard chants for Chinese teams and people clapping for good plays for them as well. Yes, not as much as Na'Vi, but it was still there (though didn't watch final with sound). I heard only 1 major booo and even that was directed more at Naga ult than anything else.
Sure majority of the crowd cheered for their favorites a lot more, but it wasn't like they completely shit on everything other teams did. get over it
The commentator bias was pretty clear, especially from Tobi. The crowd was constantly booing IG/LGD when they would use Naga Siren to escape with, and were also booing when IG/LGD would run a 4 protect 1 strategy with someone like AM or Morph. And yet when Na'vi ran the exact same thing, people where cheering when they would display XBOCT's gold values, or Navi's overall EXP/Gold rates. Yet when Sylar's graph, Burning's graph, or Zhou's graph gets put up, no one says anything, no one claps, etc. etc. That's just the commentators and crowds, who in all honesty weren't that bad; they however did show an obvious bias that was borderline rude. They didn't even clap when IG was making a really big turn around against LGD in g1 at all, and hardly anyone watched the epic EHOME vs Orange match with a ridiculously huge Tiny.
It was so bad that 2GD and the analyst booth had to remind both the commentators and fans to not be disrespectful to the Chinese teams, because it was becoming blatantly obvious what was going on.
When we shift it to the online forums, it just becomes 300x worse. Azarkon totally just flame baited everyone in the LR thread, and there were plenty of other Navi "fanboys" that were dick riding harder than I could even imagine. People saying 430 overrated and a subpar mid (LOL), or saying Dendi was ridiculously beyond anyone else. That was just on the TL, where the moderators actually make an attempt to curb the ridiculous behavior. On GosuGamers.net, JoinDota, PlayDota, Reddit, etc. the amount of Navi dick riding was beyond me; at that point it wasn't even because they were fans of Na'vi (as clearly quite a few of them were fans of CLG, EG, Mouz, or coL), but because they simply didn't like the Chinese teams at all, and quite clearly didn't respect them one bit.
To say that there was a clear bias against Chinese teams isn't far from the truth at all. It WAS the truth, and it happened right in front of everyone. This wasn't even like SC2 where the crowd would cheer for their fan favorites, but still would be polite and recognize big plays from the opposing player. The crowd basically showed almost zero recognition for some really huge plays by YYF's Darkseer in the grand final, or Faith's ridiculous Disrupter play in G3, or some of the great Chinese vs Chinese games we had in the LB that were much more than just farm fests (only TWO games were farm fests, and really those games were decided pretty early on when the losing team gave up pretty big map control).
Idk I was bored out of my mind at work so i read most of the LR for LGD/Na've games and while I saw lots of excited fans posts, I did not see anything disrespectful or biased beyond the biases of being a fan. I also saw plenty of times when Chinese Naga used ulti and crowd didn't boo. But again, none of this matters. All this boils down to the fact that Navi had many more fans and much more reaction + support, as there should be for the fan favorite team :o
I guess if you wanted to push the argument you could argue that if it was let say mtw vs navi in the finals, crowd reactions would be different. Probably you would be right, as im assuming Na'Vi was seen as foreigner hope too so there was racial/regional bias because non-asian fans can identify with them more. But honestly I still think Na'vi plays would get more cheers out of the fans, you'd still get Navi the best posts etc.
On September 04 2012 05:23 iokke wrote: Idk I was bored out of my mind at work so i read most of the LR for LGD/Na've games and while I saw lots of excited fans posts, I did not see anything disrespectful or biased beyond the biases of being a fan. I also saw plenty of times when Chinese Naga used ulti and crowd didn't boo. But again, none of this matters. All this boils down to the fact that Navi had many more fans and much more reaction + support, as there should be for the fan favorite team :o
LOL.
Please reread the LR from about WBs day 1/2 and you'll see plenty of idiotic posts that were complete flame baits. There were also people that were saying 430 overrated mid, and was average at best. Azarkon for example said that "Navi was MINDFUCKING everyone in the prelims and PURPOSELY lost games." That was just one fanboy. You haven't seen the other ones on other forums. There were like 15 page threads on JoinDota about how the Chinese did not deserve to be invited to The International 2 back in May.
racism is racism; even in esports where it's not nearly as bad as real sports/real world.
grow some skin fellow chinese fans, who cares if commentators are biased and the crowd cheers only for non chinese teams. plus theres chinese commentators who are much more knowledgeable about dota.
On September 04 2012 05:30 aintz wrote: racism is racism; even in esports where it's not nearly as bad as real sports/real world.
grow some skin fellow chinese fans, who cares if commentators are biased and the crowd cheers only for non chinese teams. plus theres chinese commentators who are much more knowledgeable about dota.
If the Chinese fans have to put up with it, then the Western fans should stop trying to justify their racism. Racism is racism.
On September 04 2012 05:23 iokke wrote: Idk I was bored out of my mind at work so i read most of the LR for LGD/Na've games and while I saw lots of excited fans posts, I did not see anything disrespectful or biased beyond the biases of being a fan. I also saw plenty of times when Chinese Naga used ulti and crowd didn't boo. But again, none of this matters. All this boils down to the fact that Navi had many more fans and much more reaction + support, as there should be for the fan favorite team :o
LOL.
Please reread the LR from about WBs day 1/2 and you'll see plenty of idiotic posts that were complete flame baits. There were also people that were saying 430 overrated mid, and was average at best. Azarkon for example said that "Navi was MINDFUCKING everyone in the prelims and PURPOSELY lost games." That was just one fanboy. You haven't seen the other ones on other forums. There were like 15 page threads on JoinDota about how the Chinese did not deserve to be invited to The International 2 back in May.
let's see how work goes today;) Um so some ppl were trolling and saying stupid shit, same goes for the Chinese teams. I saw ppl post that Chinese threw games to Na'Vi, so what?
again, i'm new to the scene, but from what I understand most people knew little of Chinese teams and Chinese powerhouses did not reemerge strongly till a few months ago? If think I even listened to a pro interview saying they did not worry about Chinese until a couple of months ago they saw how strong they are. If this is the case it's completely understandable that people in May thought those teams did not deserve the invited (especially if they were discussing a chance for them to qualify instead or smth). But I might be completely wrong here.
Anyway I want to play a little dota before work, was good chatting to you, though you really discouraged me from checking out other forums which I was gonna do to learn more about the game lol. Hope TL strategy section grows quickly;)
This title of this thread is akin to asking "why so many Lebron/Heat fanboys?"
I'm sorry, but it's just a dumb question. Dendi is an awesome player, unquestionably one of the best, and the same can be said for Na'Vi as a team. Good players get fans. Good teams get fans.
On September 04 2012 05:35 Rybka wrote: This title of this thread is akin to asking "why so many Lebron/Heat fanboys?"
I'm sorry, but it's just a dumb question. Dendi is an awesome player, unquestionably one of the best, and the same can be said for Na'Vi as a team. Good players get fans. Good teams get fans.
Lebron is the undisputed best player in the NBA. Navi is definitely not the undisputed best team in Dota2, nor is Dendi the undisputed best player in Dota2. In the end, Navi got fans because they are not Chinese, nor Asian. If fans only cared about skill there would've been at least equal amounts of fans split between Navi and IG, if not more for IG.
On September 04 2012 05:35 Rybka wrote: This title of this thread is akin to asking "why so many Lebron/Heat fanboys?"
I'm sorry, but it's just a dumb question. Dendi is an awesome player, unquestionably one of the best, and the same can be said for Na'Vi as a team. Good players get fans. Good teams get fans.
Lebron is the undisputed best player in the NBA. Navi is definitely not the undisputed best team in Dota2, nor is Dendi the undisputed best player in Dota2. In the end, Navi got fans because they are not Chinese, nor Asian. If fans only cared about skill there would've been at least equal amounts of fans split between Navi and IG, if not more for IG.
On September 04 2012 05:30 aintz wrote: racism is racism; even in esports where it's not nearly as bad as real sports/real world.
grow some skin fellow chinese fans, who cares if commentators are biased and the crowd cheers only for non chinese teams. plus theres chinese commentators who are much more knowledgeable about dota.
If the Chinese fans have to put up with it, then the Western fans should stop trying to justify their racism. Racism is racism.
im chinese....
you need to grow up. its kids like you who make the situation worse than what it is. even the chinese commentators whos sitting infront of all the fanboy crowd and biased english commentators didnt give a crap about what was happening. learn to accept the fucking community or dont be a part of it.
I love how people are throwing out the race card here. Navi are an exciting team to watch, not afraid to try new things and entertain the crowd. Dendi and Puppey have great vibrant personalities and this endears them to the audience. Add in the fact that they are the defending champions. Plus, they had a massive following since the group stages. Look at their first game and the pennant counts.
Bias against China? Probably, but it's because people respect the Chinese powerhouse. An underdog fight makes for a great narrative.
On September 04 2012 05:07 iokke wrote: ^ idk where you are getting this from? a few uninformed posts here and there or a few excited posts from fans, which I don't see anything wrong with. Again, same happens in other sports. I used to root for my soccer team chanting how they are the best even though I knew they wouldn't win the championship.
I got a sense that Chinese teams had and got plenty of respect. Even being knew to the scene, I quickly realized that the Chinese are the teams to beat and didn't think Navi would even go this far, because I read everywhere about how strong Chinese teams are. Only happened because the Chinese were given due respect.
I heard chants for Chinese teams and people clapping for good plays for them as well. Yes, not as much as Na'Vi, but it was still there (though didn't watch final with sound). I heard only 1 major booo and even that was directed more at Naga ult than anything else.
Sure majority of the crowd cheered for their favorites a lot more, but it wasn't like they completely shit on everything other teams did. get over it
The commentator bias was pretty clear, especially from Tobi. The crowd was constantly booing IG/LGD when they would use Naga Siren to escape with, and were also booing when IG/LGD would run a 4 protect 1 strategy with someone like AM or Morph. And yet when Na'vi ran the exact same thing, people where cheering when they would display XBOCT's gold values, or Navi's overall EXP/Gold rates. Yet when Sylar's graph, Burning's graph, or Zhou's graph gets put up, no one says anything, no one claps, etc. etc. That's just the commentators and crowds, who in all honesty weren't that bad; they however did show an obvious bias that was borderline rude. They didn't even clap when IG was making a really big turn around against LGD in g1 at all, and hardly anyone watched the epic EHOME vs Orange match with a ridiculously huge Tiny.
It was so bad that 2GD and the analyst booth had to remind both the commentators and fans to not be disrespectful to the Chinese teams, because it was becoming blatantly obvious what was going on.
When we shift it to the online forums, it just becomes 300x worse. Azarkon totally just flame baited everyone in the LR thread, and there were plenty of other Navi "fanboys" that were dick riding harder than I could even imagine. People saying 430 overrated and a subpar mid (LOL), or saying Dendi was ridiculously beyond anyone else. That was just on the TL, where the moderators actually make an attempt to curb the ridiculous behavior. On GosuGamers.net, JoinDota, PlayDota, Reddit, etc. the amount of Navi dick riding was beyond me; at that point it wasn't even because they were fans of Na'vi (as clearly quite a few of them were fans of CLG, EG, Mouz, or coL), but because they simply didn't like the Chinese teams at all, and quite clearly didn't respect them one bit.
To say that there was a clear bias against Chinese teams isn't far from the truth at all. It WAS the truth, and it happened right in front of everyone. This wasn't even like SC2 where the crowd would cheer for their fan favorites, but still would be polite and recognize big plays from the opposing player. The crowd basically showed almost zero recognition for some really huge plays by YYF's Darkseer in the grand final, or Faith's ridiculous Disrupter play in G3, or some of the great Chinese vs Chinese games we had in the LB that were much more than just farm fests (only TWO games were farm fests, and really those games were decided pretty early on when the losing team gave up pretty big map control).
fucking awesome, you just summed up my feelings perfectly well. I 100% agree with everything you said, it is just so sad that some people fail to see the borderline racism going on, or some people just feigning ignorance even though it is so batantly obvious. there were so many haters on the jd forums with absolutely no reason but "chinese doto boring rice farm" or "chinese suck dicks", clearly because they simply hated the chinese. Navi is one of my favorite teams, and Im sure they have a lot of good fans too, but sadly the retarded fanboys are the ones you keep in mind, and their number is high.
On September 04 2012 05:30 aintz wrote: racism is racism; even in esports where it's not nearly as bad as real sports/real world.
grow some skin fellow chinese fans, who cares if commentators are biased and the crowd cheers only for non chinese teams. plus theres chinese commentators who are much more knowledgeable about dota.
If the Chinese fans have to put up with it, then the Western fans should stop trying to justify their racism. Racism is racism.
im chinese....
you need to grow up. its kids like you who make the situation worse than what it is. even the chinese commentators whos sitting infront of all the fanboy crowd and biased english commentators didnt give a crap about what was happening. learn to accept the fucking community or dont be a part of it.
Can you not read? I was agreeing with you. If you read any of my prior posts i was saying that racism in sports is expected. People are saying that race was not a factor in the crowd liking Navi and I am pointing out that it is obviously false.
Next time, try and take the first step into adulthood and learn to read k?
On September 04 2012 05:07 iokke wrote: ^ idk where you are getting this from? a few uninformed posts here and there or a few excited posts from fans, which I don't see anything wrong with. Again, same happens in other sports. I used to root for my soccer team chanting how they are the best even though I knew they wouldn't win the championship.
I got a sense that Chinese teams had and got plenty of respect. Even being knew to the scene, I quickly realized that the Chinese are the teams to beat and didn't think Navi would even go this far, because I read everywhere about how strong Chinese teams are. Only happened because the Chinese were given due respect.
I heard chants for Chinese teams and people clapping for good plays for them as well. Yes, not as much as Na'Vi, but it was still there (though didn't watch final with sound). I heard only 1 major booo and even that was directed more at Naga ult than anything else.
Sure majority of the crowd cheered for their favorites a lot more, but it wasn't like they completely shit on everything other teams did. get over it
The commentator bias was pretty clear, especially from Tobi. The crowd was constantly booing IG/LGD when they would use Naga Siren to escape with, and were also booing when IG/LGD would run a 4 protect 1 strategy with someone like AM or Morph. And yet when Na'vi ran the exact same thing, people where cheering when they would display XBOCT's gold values, or Navi's overall EXP/Gold rates. Yet when Sylar's graph, Burning's graph, or Zhou's graph gets put up, no one says anything, no one claps, etc. etc. That's just the commentators and crowds, who in all honesty weren't that bad; they however did show an obvious bias that was borderline rude. They didn't even clap when IG was making a really big turn around against LGD in g1 at all, and hardly anyone watched the epic EHOME vs Orange match with a ridiculously huge Tiny.
It was so bad that 2GD and the analyst booth had to remind both the commentators and fans to not be disrespectful to the Chinese teams, because it was becoming blatantly obvious what was going on.
When we shift it to the online forums, it just becomes 300x worse. Azarkon totally just flame baited everyone in the LR thread, and there were plenty of other Navi "fanboys" that were dick riding harder than I could even imagine. People saying 430 overrated and a subpar mid (LOL), or saying Dendi was ridiculously beyond anyone else. That was just on the TL, where the moderators actually make an attempt to curb the ridiculous behavior. On GosuGamers.net, JoinDota, PlayDota, Reddit, etc. the amount of Navi dick riding was beyond me; at that point it wasn't even because they were fans of Na'vi (as clearly quite a few of them were fans of CLG, EG, Mouz, or coL), but because they simply didn't like the Chinese teams at all, and quite clearly didn't respect them one bit.
To say that there was a clear bias against Chinese teams isn't far from the truth at all. It WAS the truth, and it happened right in front of everyone. This wasn't even like SC2 where the crowd would cheer for their fan favorites, but still would be polite and recognize big plays from the opposing player. The crowd basically showed almost zero recognition for some really huge plays by YYF's Darkseer in the grand final, or Faith's ridiculous Disrupter play in G3, or some of the great Chinese vs Chinese games we had in the LB that were much more than just farm fests (only TWO games were farm fests, and really those games were decided pretty early on when the losing team gave up pretty big map control).
Lol i just remember when LGD was playing IG, the crowd was mostly silent, even though there were NUMEROUS great plays happening all around.
This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
On September 04 2012 06:29 furymonkey wrote: This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
It's nothing like BroodWar though, I hate that comparison. We had a western team putting a great performance and winning against all the best chinese teams. What were the chances of Idra beating Flash, JD and Bisu? EG took a game off the tournament champions, imagine a mid-high level foreigner taking a game off Flash. TongFu and EHOME didn't look that dominant at all, they lost to teams like Darer, mTw and Complexity. Mid level koreans at BW were still far ahead of the top level foreigners. And WE was a complete joke, got stomped by Mouz, one of the weakest teams at the tournament.
Overall, DK, iG and LGD looked far above western teams that are not Navi, which is much close to SC2 than BW. A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force. And it still looks that that sea is bigger in SC2 than Dota2, specially with the arrival of the BW pros.
On September 04 2012 06:29 furymonkey wrote: This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
It's nothing like BroodWar though, I hate that comparison. We had a western team putting a great performance and winning against all the best chinese teams. What were the chances of Idra beating Flash, JD and Bisu? EG took a game off the tournament champions, imagine a mid-high level foreigner taking a game off Flash. TongFu and EHOME didn't look that dominant at all, they lost to teams like Darer, mTw and Complexity. Mid level koreans at BW were still far ahead of the top level foreigners. And WE was a complete joke, got stomped by Mouz, one of the weakest teams at the tournament.
Overall, DK, iG and LGD looked far above western teams that are not Navi, which is much close to SC2 than BW. A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force. And it still looks that that sea is bigger in SC2 than Dota2, specially with the arrival of the BW pros.
EHOME and Tongfu took care of business in the lower brackets and didn't lose until they met an opposing Chinese team, same with DK. Na'vi was the only team that was able to compete; out of the 8 spots it's all China/SEA except Na'vi. Believing that there's not a gap is pretty funny. Sure it's not the exact same gap as it was in BW, but the gap is pretty noticeably large.
During the World Cup I cheered for South Korea and Japan and I would cheer for China if they would qualify, because they are underdogs and not part of mainstream football and it's intriguing to see them play their own style.
During Brood War WCGs I cheered for non-Korean players, no matter the nationality, even though I was a fan of some Korean players. Sen, Fisheye, Elky or JohnRambo were my heroes for going up against the Koreans.
Does that make me a racist? I think not!
Players/teams who are not part of the dominating scene are not only special but also often at a disadvantage, and that makes them appealing.
On September 04 2012 06:29 furymonkey wrote: This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
It's nothing like BroodWar though, I hate that comparison. We had a western team putting a great performance and winning against all the best chinese teams. What were the chances of Idra beating Flash, JD and Bisu? EG took a game off the tournament champions, imagine a mid-high level foreigner taking a game off Flash. TongFu and EHOME didn't look that dominant at all, they lost to teams like Darer, mTw and Complexity. Mid level koreans at BW were still far ahead of the top level foreigners. And WE was a complete joke, got stomped by Mouz, one of the weakest teams at the tournament.
Overall, DK, iG and LGD looked far above western teams that are not Navi, which is much close to SC2 than BW. A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force. And it still looks that that sea is bigger in SC2 than Dota2, specially with the arrival of the BW pros.
EHOME and Tongfu took care of business in the lower brackets and didn't lose until they met an opposing Chinese team, same with DK. Na'vi was the only team that was able to compete; out of the 8 spots it's all China/SEA except Na'vi. Believing that there's not a gap is pretty funny. Sure it's not the exact same gap as it was in BW, but the gap is pretty noticeably large.
Which is why I said there was a gap? Unless you believe the is no gap in SC2? I just said it's a huge exageration to compare it to the gap in BW. This were my exact words in fact: "A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force." I'm not sure how you can say that means there is no gap.
EHOME and TongFu could have easily lost to teams like Col or EG in a Bo1. But it was a Bo1, which makes it far more random than usual. Their only other wins in the LB were against Mouz and M5, which were two of the worst teams in the International, and the EHOME win against Orange, which was impressive, but Orange really should have won that game. It's hard to say they did that well in the LB, they won the 2 Bo1's where they had decent western oponents, but they were Bo1's. And they did not look that great in the groups stage. I wouldn't put them far ahead of anyone without additional games.
On September 04 2012 06:29 furymonkey wrote: This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
It's nothing like BroodWar though, I hate that comparison. We had a western team putting a great performance and winning against all the best chinese teams. What were the chances of Idra beating Flash, JD and Bisu? EG took a game off the tournament champions, imagine a mid-high level foreigner taking a game off Flash. TongFu and EHOME didn't look that dominant at all, they lost to teams like Darer, mTw and Complexity. Mid level koreans at BW were still far ahead of the top level foreigners. And WE was a complete joke, got stomped by Mouz, one of the weakest teams at the tournament.
Overall, DK, iG and LGD looked far above western teams that are not Navi, which is much close to SC2 than BW. A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force. And it still looks that that sea is bigger in SC2 than Dota2, specially with the arrival of the BW pros.
EHOME and Tongfu took care of business in the lower brackets and didn't lose until they met an opposing Chinese team, same with DK. Na'vi was the only team that was able to compete; out of the 8 spots it's all China/SEA except Na'vi. Believing that there's not a gap is pretty funny.
There's a gap, but hopefully it won't become like Brood War where the top foreigners could only compete with B teamers. The state international Dota2 is in right now is comparable to early Brood War when the top foreigners could actually compete, BUT with the big differences that Valve is going to cultivate Dota2 as an international esport (not to mention the environment has been more and more accepting), and the game is not even released yet but has a well grown metagame.
Had Dota2 not been released I predicted Dota to go down the path of Brood War in that its basically one country and the rest of the world. Dota2 has basically reinvigorated the foreigner scene similar to SC2, but there still needs to be mindset changes and development for foreigner Dota2 to start showing better results.
On September 04 2012 06:29 furymonkey wrote: This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
It's nothing like BroodWar though, I hate that comparison. We had a western team putting a great performance and winning against all the best chinese teams. What were the chances of Idra beating Flash, JD and Bisu? EG took a game off the tournament champions, imagine a mid-high level foreigner taking a game off Flash. TongFu and EHOME didn't look that dominant at all, they lost to teams like Darer, mTw and Complexity. Mid level koreans at BW were still far ahead of the top level foreigners. And WE was a complete joke, got stomped by Mouz, one of the weakest teams at the tournament.
Overall, DK, iG and LGD looked far above western teams that are not Navi, which is much close to SC2 than BW. A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force. And it still looks that that sea is bigger in SC2 than Dota2, specially with the arrival of the BW pros.
EHOME and Tongfu took care of business in the lower brackets and didn't lose until they met an opposing Chinese team, same with DK. Na'vi was the only team that was able to compete; out of the 8 spots it's all China/SEA except Na'vi. Believing that there's not a gap is pretty funny. Sure it's not the exact same gap as it was in BW, but the gap is pretty noticeably large.
Which is why I said there was a gap? Unless you believe the is no gap in SC2? I just said it's a huge exageration to compare it to the gap in BW.
EHOME and TongFu could have easily lost to teams like Col or EG in a Bo1. But it was a Bo1, which makes it far more random than usual. Their only other wins in the LB were against Mouz and M5, which were two of the worst teams in the International, and the EHOME win against Orange, which was impressive, but Orange really should have won that game. It's hard to say they did that well in the LB, they won the 2 Bo1's where they had decent western oponents, but they were Bo1's. And they did not look that great in the groups stage. I wouldn't put them far ahead of anyone without additional games.
There really wasn't any randomness at all in the victories in the bo1's; EHOME pretty much ran a line-up everyone knew they were going to run the entire time, and Tongfu didn't do anything unstandard at all. They just completely outplayed their opponents quite badly I might add.
Fact of the matter is, the Chinese/SEA teams pretty much dominated in the results category. With only Navi taking a spot in the top 8, there needs to be some serious evaluations as to how teams run before they can really get anywhere. It's pretty sad too that Navi is basically the one and only hope for the Western world right now, because coming from DotA 1 the core of Navi's squad (Dendi/LOH) are the same core of the old DTS, which means that the Western world really haven't stepped their game up very much.
On September 04 2012 06:29 furymonkey wrote: This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
It's nothing like BroodWar though, I hate that comparison. We had a western team putting a great performance and winning against all the best chinese teams. What were the chances of Idra beating Flash, JD and Bisu? EG took a game off the tournament champions, imagine a mid-high level foreigner taking a game off Flash. TongFu and EHOME didn't look that dominant at all, they lost to teams like Darer, mTw and Complexity. Mid level koreans at BW were still far ahead of the top level foreigners. And WE was a complete joke, got stomped by Mouz, one of the weakest teams at the tournament.
Overall, DK, iG and LGD looked far above western teams that are not Navi, which is much close to SC2 than BW. A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force. And it still looks that that sea is bigger in SC2 than Dota2, specially with the arrival of the BW pros.
EHOME and Tongfu took care of business in the lower brackets and didn't lose until they met an opposing Chinese team, same with DK. Na'vi was the only team that was able to compete; out of the 8 spots it's all China/SEA except Na'vi. Believing that there's not a gap is pretty funny. Sure it's not the exact same gap as it was in BW, but the gap is pretty noticeably large.
Which is why I said there was a gap? Unless you believe the is no gap in SC2? I just said it's a huge exageration to compare it to the gap in BW.
EHOME and TongFu could have easily lost to teams like Col or EG in a Bo1. But it was a Bo1, which makes it far more random than usual. Their only other wins in the LB were against Mouz and M5, which were two of the worst teams in the International, and the EHOME win against Orange, which was impressive, but Orange really should have won that game. It's hard to say they did that well in the LB, they won the 2 Bo1's where they had decent western oponents, but they were Bo1's. And they did not look that great in the groups stage. I wouldn't put them far ahead of anyone without additional games.
There really wasn't any randomness at all in the victories in the bo1's; EHOME pretty much ran a line-up everyone knew they were going to run the entire time, and Tongfu didn't do anything unstandard at all. They just completely outplayed their opponents quite badly I might add.
Col completelly outplayed TF in the groups stages. iG, LGD and DK completelly outplayed Navi in their WB matches and Navi managed to turn it around. Outplaying someone in a single match doesn't mean all that much.
Another problem is kind of the playstyle and lack of understanding of the games. Just as the Chinese are, on average, superior to western dota teams, Chinese fans are, on average, similarily better at understanding. For example, not everybody can appreciate the genius f what yyf + Zhou did with the bear on game 4 to get far more farm and exp than expected, but the type of flashy plays of dendi are understadable by most.
The caster have a bit of a role to play in this though, because most of them have no clue about the nuances of chinese dota, for example, I die a bit inside every time somebody mentions "the play" because it was, in of itself, the least mechanically impressive of anything navi did that weekend. It was simply a colossal fuckup caused by overconfidence and discrepancies in the game engines that allowed navi to execute literally the only buttons they could have hit
I personally became a far bigger fan of navi over the weekend because of what I would describe as "next level" meta not shown by any of the Chinese teams until ig in g3 and 4 of the finals. The way they made up the gap in familiarity with Chinese style and gap in individual skill (mostly xbocht and landing puppey) was amazing. The mindgames from capitalizing on igs losses, the indomintable resilience in the face of the fields of top tier teams.
I felt the event's" racism" factor was present but no where near as bad as people would claim, of course navi was the favorites so the home crowd cheered more, but there were fait waves I applause for ig as well, and navi themselves were booed several times (abet far less loudly and less whole-heartedly) when they used nags ult to escape.
On September 04 2012 06:29 furymonkey wrote: This reminds me a year ago when Westerns said Starcraft 2 is still young, both Westerns and Koreans had equal footing, it won't be Korean dominance anymore like brood war. A year later we see a total Korean dominance, Deja vu?
It's nothing like BroodWar though, I hate that comparison. We had a western team putting a great performance and winning against all the best chinese teams. What were the chances of Idra beating Flash, JD and Bisu? EG took a game off the tournament champions, imagine a mid-high level foreigner taking a game off Flash. TongFu and EHOME didn't look that dominant at all, they lost to teams like Darer, mTw and Complexity. Mid level koreans at BW were still far ahead of the top level foreigners. And WE was a complete joke, got stomped by Mouz, one of the weakest teams at the tournament.
Overall, DK, iG and LGD looked far above western teams that are not Navi, which is much close to SC2 than BW. A lone foreigner hope among a dominant asian force. And it still looks that that sea is bigger in SC2 than Dota2, specially with the arrival of the BW pros.
EHOME and Tongfu took care of business in the lower brackets and didn't lose until they met an opposing Chinese team, same with DK. Na'vi was the only team that was able to compete; out of the 8 spots it's all China/SEA except Na'vi. Believing that there's not a gap is pretty funny. Sure it's not the exact same gap as it was in BW, but the gap is pretty noticeably large.
Which is why I said there was a gap? Unless you believe the is no gap in SC2? I just said it's a huge exageration to compare it to the gap in BW.
EHOME and TongFu could have easily lost to teams like Col or EG in a Bo1. But it was a Bo1, which makes it far more random than usual. Their only other wins in the LB were against Mouz and M5, which were two of the worst teams in the International, and the EHOME win against Orange, which was impressive, but Orange really should have won that game. It's hard to say they did that well in the LB, they won the 2 Bo1's where they had decent western oponents, but they were Bo1's. And they did not look that great in the groups stage. I wouldn't put them far ahead of anyone without additional games.
There really wasn't any randomness at all in the victories in the bo1's; EHOME pretty much ran a line-up everyone knew they were going to run the entire time, and Tongfu didn't do anything unstandard at all. They just completely outplayed their opponents quite badly I might add.
Col completelly outplayed TF in the groups stages. iG, LGD and DK completelly outplayed Navi in their WB matches and Navi managed to turn it around. Outplaying someone in a single match doesn't mean all that much.
EHOME/Tongfu did nothing different and none of the Western teams they faced adapted at all. It's not like EHOME/Tongfu did anything new or unfamiliar, they simply just garbage canned the Western teams they faced. Pretending that EHOME/Tongfu got lucky because of the bo1 is just hilarious. Over a BO5, even with all the issues that EHOME/Tongfu have, I think they probably beat a vast majority of the Western teams out there.
coL beat Tongfu also because Tongfu went full dumbass mode and drafted Lone Druid for Hao, a hero that Hao has historically been awful at in DotA 1. In reality, we can turn this argument in multiple ways. I could say one tournament doesn't mean shit. It could just be all the Western teams just had a bad tournament right? Excuses are just excuses. They got outplayed when push comes to shove, and in the elimination matches, the Chinese teams held their nerves and executed when everything was on the line.
It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
If fans in Starcraft 2 can be fairly neutral while supporting their primary fan favorite, then DotA 2 fans can do the same. The crowd got way out of hand, and it was honestly ridiculous.
Its just that Dendi has a face because he does crazy stuff, its like comparing a singing rootcatz proxy hatching and 8 pooling with a shy solid korean.
On September 04 2012 07:46 Ramong wrote: What I don't understand is this claim that navi fans are racists..
Just because I rooted for navi I somehow hate the Chinese race and believe their are inferior?
Not cheering for or dislikeing a team does not mean you hate the race of the players of the team
Refer to my previous post as to why there's a general confusion in this thread:
On September 04 2012 03:24 Xpace wrote: So, to sum up this thread, we have:
Group A - Na'Vi fans, who like them for their good values, such as + Show Spoiler +
On September 03 2012 19:44 Kipsate wrote: Why Dendi is popular should be easy He is a good player He is young(he is pretty much a kid, which is awesome). He is likeable(good personality, dances etc) He plays the flashy role(solo mid) He is slightly insane(makes big dives, big plays, sometimes dies for it, goes blink dagger force staff on like every hero) He plays on Na'vi, the only non-Asian team to make it far. Na'vi have a strong history of dominance in Dota 2. Na'vi plays very aggressive and with interesting picks(this is not on Dendi but it does make their games in general more attractive to the general public.
On September 03 2012 11:06 hacklebeast wrote: For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
You guys keep arguing your points, but what you don't understand is, everyone gets it already. I'm a Na'Vi (and Zenith) fan, you're a Na'Vi fan, most of us here and in the audience are Na'Vi fans. What you're failing to understand is...
Group B - Na'Vi fans, who are simply supporting them for retarded reasons such as + Show Spoiler +
On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote: you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why.
^ If you look closely at this idiotic post, you can see the poster used the word "we", as if ALL Na'Vi fans share the same reason he does, when in fact, we don't.
Also known as "Chinese DotA so boring lolol". Completely forgetting games like Na'Vi's 16 minute GG to iG, or LGD vs iG hitting over 60 kills in 40 minutes, or the several Xboct AM farm games, just because the players are "chinks". /sarcasm on Guess what, a Chinese team won. Oh, and they completely outplayed Na'Vi. So you know what that means? DotA2 sucks as a spectator/e-Sport game, where the "boring" teams win. Mind blown! /sarcasm off
Group C - The Na'Vi anti-fans
Get over yourself. Close to half the viewers for TI2 were from China (275000 outside China, 500000 when including China). I'm pretty sure iG has a lot of support on their home soil. Yeah, TI2 was hosted Seattle, sucks for you, but get over it because I'm pretty sure that million dollar check was worth the boos that iG got. Team Liquid is an English forum, so if you want to hate on Na'Vi, I'm sure your thread will be much more appreciated on a .cn website. + Show Spoiler +
On September 04 2012 02:27 Skiblet wrote: I really can't see with people thinking 'Dendi' or Na'Vi when dota is mentioned, don't we need super popular players and teams to promote esports? Its like if someone just blindly said MVP is the best player in the world even if they only played starcraft casually and didn't really watch. Are you offended by that? do you always feel the need to argue with that person? If you do then you've got some serious issues. You can't come with your 'hipster' attitude saying there are way better chinese players/teams that people don't know nearly as well as they know Dendi or Na'Vi
Just let people love who they love and just face the fact that Dendi IS the most popular Dota 2 player, and on top of that is EXCELLENT at the game, and streams almost every single day. I see no problem with a player who loves dota, and practices his ass off in it as a 'celebrity' in the dota community
Yeah... stop trying to convince Na'Vi fans that Na'Vi isn't the best, because they don't give a rats ass.
1)Nobody is forcing you to like the Chinese teams. To each his own, and only you can choose who you want to support. You like Na'Vi because they were the only foreigners who got far? By all means! We all have racial bias, nobody is denying that fact!
2) BUT, you also have to realize that there is a big difference in showing unconditional support to the team you're a fan of (again, even if the reasons are purely racial), to blatantly disrespecting the opposing player/team. You can feign ignorance all you want, but when several casters/analysts end up having to remind the audience to show respect, there's something wrong. Accept that fact.
3)Stop comparing e-Sports and real sports. Watch this (first part audio is fucked, but its fine for the rest of the video):
Some of you guys actually compared these pro-gamers to Lebron fucking James???
hyhy: Especially in Singapore, our families put a lot of stress on us in terms of education. Trying to juggle both gaming and studies together, it takes a lot of effort. My parents used to tell me that "gaming will be the death of you one day".
Dendi: One way to forget about pain is to do something you will be in, completely.
Fear: So it's kind of a ghetto set-up. I didn't have a monitor so I went to a friend and he had a spare CRT monitor. I have two books here that support it.
These guys didn't get scouted at a high-school game, these guys didn't get a full scholarship to college from playing DotA, these guys didn't get drafted into an NBA team, these guys don't have multimillion-dollar contracts.
It's like you guys have taken pro-gamers for granted, completely ignoring the fact that it's probably one of the least prospective career options out there. These guys have sacrificed A LOT, like education (which provides financial stability for the future). Imagine going through what these guys have gone through, dedicating everything to winning that one pay-off tournament, the prize money and the potential sponsors, only to have the crowd BOO you for doing something in the game (ie. Song of the Siren) that helps you achieve your goal of winning. Then an hour later, Na'Vi does the exact same thing, and the audience are okay with it. Seriously?
"Uhhh, bro, they came here to win a computer game, not a popularity contest" - is perhaps the most insensitive, ignorant argument, ever. Don't sit there in front of your computer claiming you wouldn't tilt if it happened to you.
4) If you want e-Sports to grow, to a point where we can legitimately compare it to other sports (maybe then you can throw comparisons to the NBA), then maybe we should consider respecting those we don't support. We do it in Starcraft 2, why can't we do the same thing in DotA 2?
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
If fans in Starcraft 2 can be fairly neutral while supporting their primary fan favorite, then DotA 2 fans can do the same. The crowd got way out of hand, and it was honestly ridiculous.
I am so grateful. I may have seen a larger crowd but, a cheer like that, you would only see once per year. It makes me proud and I want to thank the fans who cheered for me. If possible, I want to attend as many foreign tournaments as possible.
If I end up going to Anaheim, please cheer me on even if I don't do so well. I really want to hear the cheers of the foreign audience, so show me what you guys are all about. I haven't been able to go to TeamLiquid that much, but I heard it's a great site for Starcraft II resources, so I'll try to go more often.
I like it a lot. I'm thankful to the fans, and I really like them, but because they're foreigners, it's hard for me to express that to him. And it's not like I'm good at English. I'm so thankful to the fans but I have trouble expressing it, so that's been regrettable. Yes, I've won the OSL and MSL multiple times, but the WCG's I've been to really stick out in my memory. The passion of the foreign fans really left an impression. If I could play Starcraft II abroad, it would be great. I hope people are looking forward to it.
Q: This is your first time at a foreign tournament outside of Korea. What are your thoughts so far, you've been here a little over a day. A: I'm very nervous, but at the same time excited. Even though I'm here and I'm having difficulties, I find it an enjoyable environment.
If you want to see more of this
Then start respecting both sides of the competition. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On September 04 2012 07:46 Ramong wrote: What I don't understand is this claim that navi fans are racists..
Just because I rooted for navi I somehow hate the Chinese race and believe their are inferior?
Not cheering for or dislikeing a team does not mean you hate the race of the players of the team
I don't know about the claims about racism, but alot of people make up some bullshit saying how the Chinese play boring games as a reason as to why they don't like them. That's pretty funny, considering the Chinese were averaging more kills and assists on a consistent game by game basis than virtually every Na'vi player. They also generally scored higher team cohesiveness stat, which is a stat that demonstrates teamfight ability, gank coordination, etc. etc. on almost every game especially when facing against Na'vi. What that means is that the Chinese teams were really the ones pushing things around, and forcing the action most of the time, contrary to popular opinion.
Look up the stats if you don't believe it yourself. The belief that the Chinese play a "boring" farm style is a load of crap. The only played that style during the PL/Dusa/Drow/etc. hardcarry era because it was how you won games. They executed it very well too; that doesn't mean they still do the same things anymore. Their style of play is just simply less flashy, but they still generally are the ones being the aggressor while still maintaining farm and map control all at the same time. It's coordinated aggression, not mindless aggression like alot of Western teams utilize (Na'vi and coL are examples of Western teams that DO NOT utilize mindless aggression; they press the envelope like alot of Chinese teams do, thus why they were probably the most successful Western teams at the International).
You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I love your post Xpace. Nice examples of korean progamers showing appreciation towards their foreign fans. I havent seen Chinese players and teams do that in dota. If someone has some info about that, I'd really like to read it.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beat their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
No, I haven't forgotten at all. And I didn't try to justify their actions. They were wrong, just like what happened at TI2, plain and simple.
And I wasn't trying to compare the Chinese teams to Flash, I was merely pointing out that if people really want DotA 2 to grow, they should give the Chinese teams a reason to keep coming back, because let's be honest, the games were GREAT!
I'm not saying the SC2 community is better than the DotA 2 community, I'm simply pointing out one aspect the SC2 community has adopted that the DotA 2 community should adopt. Both communities are growing/maturing, wouldn't it be nice if they could both benefit from each other by adopting what makes the other so good?
Edit:
On September 04 2012 08:07 FreakyDroid wrote: I love your post Xpace. Nice examples of korean progamers showing appreciation towards their foreign fans. I havent seen Chinese players and teams do that in dota. If someone has some info about that, I'd really like to read it.
Thanks! Sadly, while I'm fluent in speaking Cantonese/Mandarin, my reading is at a grade school level.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
How were they less boring? If anything there were far more boring. XBOCT's AM is a level below Burning and Sylar, so he couldn't even get as much farm as those could when Na'vi was securing him free farm. Watching XBOCT do nothing but right click creeps while Na'vi controlled the map through smokes/ganks (which is exactly what the Chinese do anyways) isn't exactly riveting, but the whole crowd would cheer when they saw the exp or gold graphs of XBOCTs. It was a load of crap and you know it. The fact of the matter is, the analyst booth had to tell the crowd to stop disrespecting the Chinese teams. When it gets that bad, there's no way of denying what was going on.
Look, you're just running out of excuses. Everyone says "Chinese play boring" etc. etc. etc. It wasn't just that game, they were saying EHOME, Tongfu, LGD, and iG all played boring games. They said that all they did was farm farm farm. You really think two games was it? Somehow everyone can remember PPY picking Juggernaut, can remember big plays from Dendi, or LOH's Enigma ults, and yet they can't remember when iG/LGD make big plays against their opponents? Ferrari's TA destroying people? YYF's ridiculous Panda play? The come back with Zhou's bear? People just want to have selective memory. You saying it was "those two games" is a bunch of bull when people were saying the same things day 1/2/3 prelims, despite the fact that iG and LGD were literally terrorizing everyone with not just hardcarry strats, but multiple early game centric gank strats.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
On September 04 2012 07:46 Ramong wrote: What I don't understand is this claim that navi fans are racists..
Just because I rooted for navi I somehow hate the Chinese race and believe their are inferior?
Not cheering for or dislikeing a team does not mean you hate the race of the players of the team
I don't know about the claims about racism, but alot of people make up some bullshit saying how the Chinese play boring games as a reason as to why they don't like them. That's pretty funny, considering the Chinese were averaging more kills and assists on a consistent game by game basis than virtually every Na'vi player. They also generally scored higher team cohesiveness stat, which is a stat that demonstrates teamfight ability, gank coordination, etc. etc. on almost every game especially when facing against Na'vi. What that means is that the Chinese teams were really the ones pushing things around, and forcing the action most of the time, contrary to popular opinion.
Look up the stats if you don't believe it yourself. The belief that the Chinese play a "boring" farm style is a load of crap. The only played that style during the PL/Dusa/Drow/etc. hardcarry era because it was how you won games. They executed it very well too; that doesn't mean they still do the same things anymore. Their style of play is just simply less flashy, but they still generally are the ones being the aggressor while still maintaining farm and map control all at the same time. It's coordinated aggression, not mindless aggression like alot of Western teams utilize (Na'vi and coL are examples of Western teams that DO NOT utilize mindless aggression; they press the envelope like alot of Chinese teams do, thus why they were probably the most successful Western teams at the International).
This. If you wanna cheer for Na'Vi for being white, then I have no problems with that whatsoever.
Don't just post any bullshit about Chinese teams being boring when the average IG games is less than 40 mins. It's just a fucking joke how their 1-2 boring games are repeatedly mentioned when their 3 games where they beat Na'Vi in less than 20 mins is never mentioned.
Anyone who frequents forums like JoinDota quickly get the feeling that race is a big part of why there are so many Na'Vi fans.
There certainly is a group of people who like Na'Vi for their plays and personality, and I'm fine with that, I'm just tired of the other camp, who post all this crap about the Chinese being "boring" as a mask for something else.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:16 superstartran wrote:
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
People have been saying that for ages, and that wasn't going to change. I'm saying those games contributed a lot to it, not that they were the only reason it happened. I don't see how you can't believe games like that are a big reason why people keep having that mentality. If you try to tell them diferently, they will point at those examples all the time.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:16 superstartran wrote:
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
People have been saying that for ages, and that wasn't going to change. I'm saying those games contributed a lot to it, not that they were the only reason it happened. I don't see how you can't believe games like that are a big reason why people keep having that mentality. If you try to tell them diferently, they will point at those examples all the time.
Except those games happen on a regular basis when EU/NA teams face off because there's so many mistakes on both ends, that it almost certainly reaches late game where both carries are ultra farmed. And yet no one ever bitches about XBOCT literally picking Anti-Mage almost every game that he can, or coL running a farm strat of TA/Tiny dual core, or any other team running a turtlish carry strat. It's a double standard and you know it. And it needs to stop, otherwise the Chinese/SEA teams simply aren't going to come back, or they aren't going to interact with the fans as much because of the hostility they feel from the crowd.
Alot of people say, "Well I don't feel a connection to them." Well no fucking shit. You're calling them boring, booing them, etc. etc. and you expect them to be friendly to you? These teams have the utmost respect for one another, especially Navi and alot of the Chinese players (they've played each other in the past on different teams at various times), and yet people in the crowd, on forums, the commentators themselves, etc. really disrespect quite a few of the Chinese players in particular for apparently no reason.
You keep saying it was "those games" and yet you forget that there were TWO separate threads on JoinDota that spanded over 30 pages in total between the two, that were discussing how the Chinese teams did NOT deserve to go to the International, and alot of them were saying that the Chinese teams not only were unskillful, but played a very boring style. This was way back in May, and it was pretty sickening reading through the threads. This isn't something that was exclusive at all to this tournament; it has happened on more than one occasion, and it honestly needs to stop. That kind of behavior should never be condoned, ever, especially on a site like TL.
I didn't even mention the amount of just straight up bias from various other posters at JoinDota, Reddit, or GosuGamers.net where people were just criticizing the Chinese players for things they didn't even do.
If you cheer for na'vi primarily because they're non-asian, I'd understand. Dendi is one of my favorite streamers for 2 main reasons: 1) he's really fucking good 2) he generally commentates in russian (which I speak), which greatly enhances my enjoyment of the stream. Likewise I enjoy v1lat's commentaries (although tobi + synd is my favorite casting pair tbh)
What's not fine is disrespecting the other team because they are asian. That's just some bullshit right there. There's a huge difference between not-cheering-for and disrespecting. The boo's and the general aura of dislike for asian teams was horrible imo.
And it's not just the crowd/casters, and it's not just about asia vs non-asia dota. For example, sometime during the international, 2GD said something like "if you're a LoL player, I don't want to know you". What the fuck was that? Again, supporting dota2 over LoL is fine, but disrespecting LoL players is not. It's just courtesy, jesus.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:16 superstartran wrote:
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
People have been saying that for ages, and that wasn't going to change. I'm saying those games contributed a lot to it, not that they were the only reason it happened. I don't see how you can't believe games like that are a big reason why people keep having that mentality. If you try to tell them diferently, they will point at those examples all the time.
Except those games happen on a regular basis when EU/NA teams face off because there's so many mistakes on both ends, that it almost certainly reaches late game where both carries are ultra farmed. And yet no one ever bitches about XBOCT literally picking Anti-Mage almost every game that he can, or coL running a farm strat of TA/Tiny dual core, or any other team running a turtlish carry strat. It's a double standard and you know it. And it needs to stop, otherwise the Chinese/SEA teams simply aren't going to come back, or they aren't going to interact with the fans as much because of the hostility they feel from the crowd.
Alot of people say, "Well I don't feel a connection to them." Well no fucking shit. You're calling them boring, booing them, etc. etc. and you expect them to be friendly to you? These teams have the utmost respect for one another, especially Navi and alot of the Chinese players (they've played each other in the past on different teams at various times), and yet people in the crowd, on forums, the commentators themselves, etc. really disrespect quite a few of the Chinese players in particular for apparently no reason.
You keep saying it was "those games" and yet you forget that there were TWO separate threads on JoinDota that spanded over 30 pages in total between the two, that were discussing how the Chinese teams did NOT deserve to go to the International, and alot of them were saying that the Chinese teams not only were unskillful, but played a very boring style. This was way back in May, and it was pretty sickening reading through the threads. This isn't something that was exclusive at all to this tournament; it has happened on more than one occasion, and it honestly needs to stop. That kind of behavior should never be condoned, ever, especially on a site like TL.
I didn't even mention the amount of just straight up bias from various other posters at JoinDota, Reddit, or GosuGamers.net where people were just criticizing the Chinese players for things they didn't even do.
its funny how I just started to write my reply, when I saw that you already replied in my stead. nothing more to add.
EPT
. Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q36KX.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jggs8.png)
