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On September 03 2012 15:59 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 15:57 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:50 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:46 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:42 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:39 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:36 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote:
Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game. Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.- IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament. Losers bracket finals, not grand finals. The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams. What? Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL. Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push. Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all. Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all. And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it? People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team. Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm. Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig. However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually. Game 2 and Game 3 are classic examples of AM games in general when AM teams get ahead. The other team is powerless to stop them and can only camp their base. You act like this is a problem centered around Chinese style of play when that is exactly how every XBOCT AM game was when Xboct got ahead. So please stop with your arguments, becuase they are getting worse by the moment. You're just hating to hate; those games turned out the way they did because LGD and IG were facing elimination and didn't want to do anything stupid or game throwing, especially since LGD just lost despite having a massively farmed Morphling.
Point me at a comparable XBOCT AM game please.
I don't even know why you think I hate. All I did was explain why Na'Vi is fun to watch, and why a lot of people like them (and why the LB finals game 3 was one of the only games in TI2 that had a 50-50 like/dislike ratio)
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while organized teamplay is fun and impressive to see, it is also important for the individual plays as well. This is where dendi thrives and really makes the game so much more fun and interesting to view. When look at players such as burning they are incredible good at the game, and maybe better than dendi, however dendi makes the game so much more interesting which is why most people really gravitate towards dendi and, therefore, Na'vi
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@ TheTester: I saw several AM games from Na'Vi where they played exactly the same way. If you honestly didn't see it then it just shows how biased you are in this discussion.
@ superstartran: I don't know how long you have followed Dota, but western teams have always had a more... "exciting" history when they clash with the east (generally speaking). Due to the Chinese playing a more refined game, western teams have usually been the ones to evolve the metagame with new strategies since that's their best shot at winning. An underdog never wins by playing by the same rules as the superior team (for those who remember, Ehomes manager said this himself a while back so this is hardly "hating").
I am sure that most people who have sticked around with Dota for a long time have similiar views and is easily biased toward western teams just because of this, and that is not even mentioning the language barrier or Chinese Dotas' relative isolation.
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On September 03 2012 16:02 TheTester wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 15:59 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:57 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:50 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:46 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:42 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:39 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:36 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote:
Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game. Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.- IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament. Losers bracket finals, not grand finals. The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams. What? Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL. Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push. Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all. Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all. And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it? People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team. Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm. Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig. However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually. Game 2 and Game 3 are classic examples of AM games in general when AM teams get ahead. The other team is powerless to stop them and can only camp their base. You act like this is a problem centered around Chinese style of play when that is exactly how every XBOCT AM game was when Xboct got ahead. So please stop with your arguments, becuase they are getting worse by the moment. You're just hating to hate; those games turned out the way they did because LGD and IG were facing elimination and didn't want to do anything stupid or game throwing, especially since LGD just lost despite having a massively farmed Morphling. Point me at a comparable XBOCT AM game please.
What?
vs DK G1 and G3? What did XBOCT do? Farm. And farmed. And farmed. And farmed. When his team felt confident enough with their farm, they went to go win the game. G3 vs IG in the WB, Xboct didn't really do much but split push and farm too. G1 vs LGD, Xboct again isn't really doing much for the most part but farming. G2 vs Darer in prelims, XBOCT just afk farming, G1 vs MTW, etc. etc. etc.
You just love to pretend like Xboct is like running around the map actively making big plays all the time. No. He occasionally leaves his lane to tp and go be active, but you could say the same about the Chinese teams every time they were playing with Morph and Sylla; they were highly active early on with those two heroes, Sylla pushing towers, and Morph engaging in fights very early.
In fact, people love shitting on the Chinese just because they pick AM/Morph, and yet Na'vi probably picked AM like almost the entire tournament if they could fit it into their line-up. The amount of unwarranted hate is hilarious and amazing all at the same time, especially considering Na'vi does almost the exact same thing.
On September 03 2012 16:11 StarkOrange wrote:
@ TheTester: I saw several AM games from Na'Vi where they played exactly the same way. If you honestly didn't see it then it just shows how biased you are in this discussion.
@ superstartran: I don't know how long you have followed Dota, but western teams have always had a more... "exciting" history when they clash with the east (generally speaking). Due to the Chinese playing a more refined game, western teams have usually been the ones to evolve the metagame with new strategies since that's their best shot at winning. An underdog never wins by playing by the same rules as the superior team (for those who remember, Ehomes manager said this himself a while back so this is hardly "hating").
I am sure that most people who have sticked around with Dota for a long time have similiar views and is easily biased toward western teams just because of this, and that is not even mentioning the language barrier or Chinese Dotas' relative isolation.
A vast majority of the metagame evolution past 2008 were all from China. Although the Radience/AC Sylla was nothing new (that was actually an American innovation), it was the Chinese that refined it and really abused it hard even after the leash nerf (which people thought would ruin the hero). Lycan, Naga, Panda, Invoker, Sniper (he was abused for quite sometime), tri-lanes, etc. etc. were all Eastern innovations. Beliving that the west drives the metagame is funny in itself, since virtually the entire metagame that we know it as today was built on SEA/Chinese metagame.
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Navi uses unconventional picks (Jugg/FV/etc) and forces unconventional picks (Disruptor) against them.
So the first impression of a game is immediately interesting.
This is the first tournament I've watched them all the way through so I can see why they're fun to watch.
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On September 03 2012 16:13 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:02 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:59 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:57 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:50 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:46 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:42 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:39 TheTester wrote:On September 03 2012 15:36 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 15:29 TheTester wrote:
Have you seen the game 2 and 3 of the LGD vs. IG loser bracket finals? This is why people cheer for Na'Vi who do unconventional picks (DK all of a sudden? random NA pickup?) The russian casters were, during the 3rd LB game, following leshrac and lich around and betting on who gets more creep kills, and just making fun of them because there was literally nothing happening for 15 minutes in the middle of that game. Yeah because that Disrupter play wasn't creative, exciting, or amazing right? -.- IG's G1 was also extremely exciting aggressive style of play, but people were against them 100% of the time despite the fact they have demonstrated much more flexibility and adaptability than Na'vi has this entire tournament. Losers bracket finals, not grand finals. The Disruptor play was cool, but when it comes to chinese vs. chinese, the games sometimes go into these ridiculously farmy nonsense games, whereas this happens less often with other teams. What? Do you know how many games that Na'vi played a boring ass 4 protect 1 on XBOCT where they just camped and waited for XBOCT to get big when he was playing against Chinese teams? LOL. Yeah, like that void play where he tp'ed into the tower to chrono 5 and died for it. Or LoH on the bear in that last game that sacrificed farm for push. Don't expect them to never ever ever farm or play defensively, because well, its a valid strategy. But none of the Na'Vi games had a 2-6 or whatever it was score at 34 minutes in because both teams refused to engage, at all. Sacrificing farm for push? The last game LOH was on a complete island at top and was farming his ass off for straight 15 minutes; he didn't sacrifice any farm at all. And there were numerous times where XBOCT merely farmed for about 99.9% of the game (which he did for most of that Void game) this tournament and yet people think "LOL SO GENIUS" but when the Chinese turn around they get shit on for it? People didn't watch alot of the Chinese vs Chinese games, because they were highly entertaining. And no, a vast majority of those games were not farm fests by any stretch of the imagination. People like you are just straight talking out of your ass, because EHOME certainly did not play a farm centric game all that often, and neither did IG for the most part in the tournament. LGD when they were running CK also played very aggressive; the only team that played 4 protect 1 farm style consistently was Burning, and that's because that's how they built their team. Nah, you just don't understand that I can still say what I did and not somehow imply that hurr durr all chinese do is farm. Game 2/3 of IG vs. LGD will be the most memorable "chinese dota" games with anyone I've seen. Whether they are a perfect example of what it entails or not, it's a different story. But for a final, it was hilariously boring and badly received. Lots of chinese teams played great, fun and aggressive games, even with the grand finals navi definitely having the farm oriented strat more so than ig. However, out of the games I've watched I haven't seen anything as boring as LGD vs. IG that wasn't a complete stomp, and things like that are memorable. Compare that to Na'Vi - you yourself just admitted on last page that Na'Vi does more interesting and diverse picks, actually. Game 2 and Game 3 are classic examples of AM games in general when AM teams get ahead. The other team is powerless to stop them and can only camp their base. You act like this is a problem centered around Chinese style of play when that is exactly how every XBOCT AM game was when Xboct got ahead. So please stop with your arguments, becuase they are getting worse by the moment. You're just hating to hate; those games turned out the way they did because LGD and IG were facing elimination and didn't want to do anything stupid or game throwing, especially since LGD just lost despite having a massively farmed Morphling. Point me at a comparable XBOCT AM game please. What? vs DK G1 and G3? What did XBOCT do? Farm. And farmed. And farmed. And farmed. When his team felt confident enough with their farm, they went to go win the game. G3 vs IG in the WB, Xboct didn't really do much but split push and farm too. G1 vs LGD, Xboct again isn't really doing much for the most part but farming. G2 vs Darer in prelims, XBOCT just afk farming, G1 vs MTW, etc. etc. etc.
Hmm, the game 1 where Na'Vi took rax at 25 with a 7-17 score or the game 3 where they took a rax at 26 with the fight that was claimed #1 play of that day? He farmed. And farmed. And yet, the games were much shorter and more action packed than both the LB game 2 and 3.
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First of all, I have a ridiculous amount of respect for Na'Vi. For as good as they are, they're very humble, and they showed some great manners after losing the finals.
Dendi's blink + force staff Rubrick is ridiculously ballsy, and he deserves praise for using it in big tournaments.
I just don't like European fans here constantly post all this crap about Chinese dota being boring. There are a tiny handful of boring IG games, but they also provided some extremely fast games (16 min win and 20 min win against Na'Vi in groupstage) and a 12 min win vs Na'Vi with Night Stalker.
The thing is those fast wins are quickly forgotten, and the retards on the forums whine about their 1-2 long games as "evidence" of them being boring. This selective bias just makes me facepalm.
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let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
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On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with.
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On September 03 2012 16:30 Antimatterz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight. Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with.
Despite his outlandish trolling, he is right in that alot of fans were pumping up Dendi as though he was gonna crush everyone mid when in today's final he was actually getting outdenied and out cs'd for quite sometime by Ferrari in the GF despite having help from Puppey (QoP vs DK).
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On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Haven't seen this much anger in a post for awhile. Were you mad that they made it through the winners bracket as well?
iG got into Puppeh's head and beat him at what he's supposed to be best at in the drafting. However Na'Vi beat every chinese power house in a bo3 to get there. Equal teams and equally skilled players.
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On September 03 2012 16:13 superstartran wrote:
A vast majority of the metagame evolution past 2008 were all from China. Although the Radience/AC Sylla was nothing new (that was actually an American innovation), it was the Chinese that refined it and really abused it hard even after the leash nerf (which people thought would ruin the hero). Lycan, Naga, Panda, Invoker, Sniper (he was abused for quite sometime), tri-lanes, etc. etc. were all Eastern innovations. Beliving that the west drives the metagame is funny in itself, since virtually the entire metagame that we know it as today was built on SEA/Chinese metagame.
Please, you can't be that blind. Yes, the trilane during ESWC a couple of years back really taught the west a lesson, but saying that China is the innovators?
"Q: Do you think the game that was just lost is a fluke? Against well-prepared foreign teams, should domestic start taking things very seriously?
DC: Losing is never a fluke. There are always reasons.
Q: We interviewed DTS and they said that they deliberately developed new hero line-ups and strategies for Ehome and other top teams, and are well prepared for the tournament. Do you think that Chinese teams have problems in the new version?
DC: In dealing with new versions, European teams are often better than Asian teams in exploring new line-ups and coming up with new strategies. However, once you reach the mid and late stages of a version release, for various reasons they are not really able to contend with Asian teams. This is a trend we must break, because it's not right. It's why we fall behind in innovation and development - there's a problem here. As a professional team, you can't keep using "results" as an excuse. This is because innovating allows you to achieve even better results and reach greater heights. This is an issue with ourselves. This time should be a lesson for us that we need to correct our attitude. "
This is from the DTS era, which I'm sure you remember. I am not saying the Chinese never invents anything, but the majority have not come from them. In fact, most of the examples you are mentioning isn't even a result of the Asian scene.
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You should watch The International 2012.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 03 2012 16:33 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:30 Antimatterz wrote:On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight. Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with. Despite his outlandish trolling, he is right in that alot of fans were pumping up Dendi as though he was gonna crush everyone mid when in today's final he was actually getting outdenied and out cs'd for quite sometime by Ferrari in the GF despite having help from Puppey (QoP vs DK).
To be fair, that matchup is pretty lopsided and 430 knows that matchup VERY well because it's been fairly common in DotA 1 since the start of this year. With Dendi going into that matchup having not practiced Dragon Knight, he would literally have not gotten his bottle without Puppey's help.
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On September 03 2012 16:35 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight. Haven't seen this much anger in a post for awhile. Were you mad that they made it through the winners bracket as well? iG got into Puppeh's head and beat him at what he's supposed to be best at in the drafting. However Na'Vi beat every chinese power house in a bo3 to get there. Equal teams and equally skilled players.
Some of his point are valid though. Navi and Dendi ARE good, they're just overrated. He's mad because of the fanboys obviously
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On September 03 2012 16:37 StarkOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:13 superstartran wrote:
A vast majority of the metagame evolution past 2008 were all from China. Although the Radience/AC Sylla was nothing new (that was actually an American innovation), it was the Chinese that refined it and really abused it hard even after the leash nerf (which people thought would ruin the hero). Lycan, Naga, Panda, Invoker, Sniper (he was abused for quite sometime), tri-lanes, etc. etc. were all Eastern innovations. Beliving that the west drives the metagame is funny in itself, since virtually the entire metagame that we know it as today was built on SEA/Chinese metagame. Please, you can't be that blind. Yes, the trilane during ESWC a couple of years back really taught the west a lesson, but saying that China is the innovators? "Q: Do you think the game that was just lost is a fluke? Against well-prepared foreign teams, should domestic start taking things very seriously? DC: Losing is never a fluke. There are always reasons. Q: We interviewed DTS and they said that they deliberately developed new hero line-ups and strategies for Ehome and other top teams, and are well prepared for the tournament. Do you think that Chinese teams have problems in the new version? DC: In dealing with new versions, European teams are often better than Asian teams in exploring new line-ups and coming up with new strategies. However, once you reach the mid and late stages of a version release, for various reasons they are not really able to contend with Asian teams. This is a trend we must break, because it's not right. It's why we fall behind in innovation and development - there's a problem here. As a professional team, you can't keep using "results" as an excuse. This is because innovating allows you to achieve even better results and reach greater heights. This is an issue with ourselves. This time should be a lesson for us that we need to correct our attitude. " This is from the DTS era, which I'm sure you remember. I am not saying the Chinese never invents anything, but the majority have not come from them. In fact, most of the examples you are mentioning isn't even a result of the Asian scene.
What?
China refined the Sylla push, as well as the Lycan play. Batrider (picked to counter Lycan BKB strats) sure as hell came from China too, as well as various other heroes too. CK/Panda were heavily used in Chinese play when they really never were in EU/NA. Trying to pretend that the Chinese didn't dictate the metagame past 2008 is hilarious, espec considering they pretty much had to since the pro scene outside of China/SEA in DotA 1 was virtually dead. You had a handful of EU teams that were playing against each other, but were pretty much stuck in the same gank meta forever until EHOME showed up and stomped the fuck out of them.
And past 2010, 2011 was basically an entirely a Chinese/SEA meta since by this point, virtually every EU/NA team was dead or on life support.
On September 03 2012 16:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:33 superstartran wrote:On September 03 2012 16:30 Antimatterz wrote:On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight. Wow someone doesn't like that people think a player is cool because hes good and has personality that we can connect with. Despite his outlandish trolling, he is right in that alot of fans were pumping up Dendi as though he was gonna crush everyone mid when in today's final he was actually getting outdenied and out cs'd for quite sometime by Ferrari in the GF despite having help from Puppey (QoP vs DK). To be fair, that matchup is pretty lopsided and 430 knows that matchup VERY well because it's been fairly common in DotA 1 since the start of this year. With Dendi going into that matchup having not practiced Dragon Knight, he would literally have not gotten his bottle without Puppey's help.
Yeah but 430 never really ever completely outright lost his lane to Dendi. He may have been very slightly behind in some games, but there was never a point where he was getting shut out. When put in reverse, there were games where 430 put his foot on Dendi's throat.
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Wow. Really? You just wrote a thread about how you think that people shouldnt like Navi/Dendi? People love them because they roflstopmed TI1 and because of the huge plays they always make. When i think back at the TI2 i remember 2 plays, the one at the radiant mid rax where dendi stole brewmaster ult, and the one at the bottom dire tier1 towers("The play") where (amongst other big plays in that fight) dendi forcstaffs out of the ravage and then steals it.
Thats why people love Navi and Dendi. And why should you be unhappy with people having favourites?
Also i just realized why i stoped reading SC2 threads, there is way to much negative stuff going on that just doesnt make sense. Hopefully this will be a minority of the threads that gets posted here.
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On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
Actually Na'Vi hasn't been bootcamping for 2 years at all. They actually do very little practicing as a team, which is a problem for them. They manage to overcome it pretty much with sheer determination when the chips are down. Watch the Live on Three interview with Puppey - he discussed all this stuff before the playoffs began.
They also defeated the other three top 4 finishers - all chinese teams. iG came back and beat them, yes. They also lost 2-1 to Na'Vi previously. It's completely absurd to suggest that after such a performance those two teams are not on the same level. The top 4 teams at the international 2 proved themselves the best four teams in the world. And only one of them could beat navi in the end- iG.
And in the closing ceremony, iG and NaVi showed enormous respect for one another. Do you really think that you have a better idea of what is worthy of respect in DOTA than Invictus fucking Gaming?
I'm not even a Na'Vi fanboy - my favorite team, hands down, is EHOME. What you're saying is just completely absurd.
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On September 03 2012 16:23 saocyn wrote:
let me get the facts straight for you blind sided fanboys
1. Navi bootcamped 2 years
2. Won international 1 and went on a nearly year long unbeaten streak thereafter
3. Beat Chinese with ping advantage
4. Rest of world goes apeshit and declares navi > all for winning vs canned american dota with ping advantage.
5. Repeatedly Gets stomped by chinese In Prelims and Finals with half the training na'vi had on fair grounds.
when was navi good can you please remind me?
additional facts so you fanboys feel more salty
1. IG 2-0'ed Na'vi in an easy prelims game
2. Ferarri not only demolished some of dendi's most known hero, he did it with both. (game 1 dendi picked voker vs ferarri qop, 2nd game dendi went qop and ferarri voker) lost both games.
who is your god now?
i am pretty sure dendi's eyes stayed crooked in that finals game. apparently it wasn't from him goofing off, it was from being stomped so hard it never went straight.
You, sir, really needs an anger management class <3. Until then, I suggest you keep your posting here.
I personally really like Dendi because he has a flamboyant playstyle and is playing in a very unpredictable and generally fun-to-watch team. Also, I'm sure that a big reason why the chinese teams aren't much loved in the west is of course lack of exposure, as they have been a very insular community, with only joining the Dota2 scene in tourneys and the like recently.
Na'vi on the other hand has been part of pretty much every big tourney since TI1, and has won a lot so of course they have a lot of fans. I personally rooted for Zenith and EG this TI (even bought pennants) but Na'vi really won me over in game 2 vs IG.
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EPT
