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On September 03 2012 10:46 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 10:41 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote:I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause. But do we really need shit like this? On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese? And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason? I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese. I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain? I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think. Why do people keep repeating this like it's true? More often than not we see iG trying to outpush and outgank Na`Vi, while Na`Vi sits back to farm with the harder carry. In games 1 and 3 against LGD, Na`Vi picks the harder carry and farms on them while LGD's hard carry pushes with team for most of mid-game. Granted Na`Vi plays a push strat with Jugg/Lycan once in a while, but the "boring playstyle" reason simply doesn't hold water when most of the time Na`Vi is the one sitting back and playing a 4-protect-1 strat, and the Chinese team is executing a mid-game push.
They play 4 gank- 1 farm strat not this lets jungle for 50 minutes then clash once or twice then tap out what we are watching right now. I am 100% sure that there was no "western" game with this little kills.
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On September 03 2012 10:41 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote:I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause. But do we really need shit like this? On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese? And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason? I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese. I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain? I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think.
Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago).
A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks.
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On September 03 2012 10:52 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 10:41 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote:I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause. But do we really need shit like this? On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese? And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason? I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese. I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain? I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think. Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago). A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks.
There were very good games between asian teams, personally I really like LGD and DK, but you can see we have 8 kills in 35 min 
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On September 03 2012 10:50 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 10:46 CountChocula wrote:On September 03 2012 10:41 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote:I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause. But do we really need shit like this? On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese? And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason? I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese. I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain? I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think. Why do people keep repeating this like it's true? More often than not we see iG trying to outpush and outgank Na`Vi, while Na`Vi sits back to farm with the harder carry. In games 1 and 3 against LGD, Na`Vi picks the harder carry and farms on them while LGD's hard carry pushes with team for most of mid-game. Granted Na`Vi plays a push strat with Jugg/Lycan once in a while, but the "boring playstyle" reason simply doesn't hold water when most of the time Na`Vi is the one sitting back and playing a 4-protect-1 strat, and the Chinese team is executing a mid-game push. They play 4 gank- 1 farm strat not this lets jungle for 50 minutes then clash once or twice then tap out what we are watching right now. I am 100% sure that there was no "western" game with this little kills.
LGD vs iG game 1 almost had more kills than Na'Vi vs LGD's entire set. The Chinese went wild on each other, fighting useless battles that had no meaning, just for the sake of racking up kills/ganks. It was exciting, and showed extreme individual skill (which the Chinese are renowned for), but it was scrappy play. And EVEN THEN, nobody acknowledged the fact that it was action-packed from start to finish.
And you know that whole "Chinese dominance" thing going around? Ever wonder why they're dominating with their so-called boring play? Yeah, exactly, senseless engagements are senseless, and are reminiscent of PUGs.
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On September 03 2012 10:52 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 10:41 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote:I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause. But do we really need shit like this? On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese? And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason? I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese. I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain? I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think. Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago). A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks.
For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent.
All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
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On September 03 2012 11:06 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 10:52 Xpace wrote:On September 03 2012 10:41 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote:I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause. But do we really need shit like this? On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the yellow OP tape around Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese? And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason? I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to e-mail fucking Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Yet when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese. I don't quite get it. Is it because the Chinese are rising in power (I highly doubt it, but hey, who knows these days)? Anyone care to explain? I really doubt that was racism. "NaVi is the only western team still standing and they doesnt play a boring style" is a much better interpretation I think. Find a person who missed a couple of International 2 games; if you hypothetically hid the identities of all the players playing, they'd find it exciting (assuming they actually know DotA2, and aren't just talking out of their asses because they played 5.84c almost a decade ago). A lot of people are finding it "boring" because the players are from a different continent. That's all. And if that's not called racism, or prejudice, or discriminatory, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what is. Note that I don't mind people giving their opinions, but if it's clearly motivated by shallow reasons as "they're not white", then it should be called out, and they should be called out for being pricks. For the majority of viewers on the english stream, they are all from a different continent. All of the teams left are obviously very talented, so it's hard to argue that you like one of these teams over another because they are just objectively better. Na'vi picks more uncommon heroes, so that helps, but they are more liked in most cases simply because they have more personality than the chinese. The chinese go into their booth, play their game, shake hands afterwards, then leave. That's not more enticing to root for than dendi who goofs around in interviews, dances on stage, ect. It's not a race thing, it's a "people actually know a little bit about what the players are like outside of the game" thing.
That's exactly what I mentioned in my first quote. I'm a Na'Vi fan, and you just highlighted a few reasons as to why. But a lot of comments in this thread don't reflect the reasons you and I have - theirs is purely a racial thing.
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It's easier to say "Chinese" than "the non English speaking teams" because aside from possibly some of the SEA teams, the Chinese are exclusively the only one who can't speak English and are therefor harder to get to know.
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This isn't really any different than popular personas and teams in SC2, is it?
Why is Team Liquid so popular? They don't have great results or players. They have persona though. They interact with the community, they have fun, outgoing, English-speaking players. And don't tell me English speaking isn't important... it's the language that is most likely to be understood by any foreign viewers.
Popular personas aren't even necessarily skilled. Some guys are popular strictly for personality and history, like Dragon. Most of the other big names are a mix of skill/persona. Take HuK... he's probably the most popular foreign player (though, Stephano challenging that these days) but his results are mediocre. He's not bad, but if you went solely by skill, there are many players that should be more popular.
People like Navi because they're a bunch of friendly, English speaking (somewhate) guys. The Chinese teams seem more reclusive and hard to relate to.
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Because they don´t do "4 protect 1"
It´s a team game and they don´t sacrifice players to hard support roles.
Pros doing this lead to public games doing it too. So sick of people demanding hard support because of my picks.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 03 2012 11:47 Mataza wrote:
Because they don´t do "4 protect 1"
It´s a team game and they don´t sacrifice players to hard support roles.
Pros doing this lead to public games doing it too. So sick of people demanding hard support because of my picks.
This is an amusing statement because Chinese teams are known for getting their supports very farmed.
It's also funny because Na'Vi has definitely played 4-protects-1 in the face of multiple-core comps from Chinese teams.
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On September 03 2012 10:34 Xpace wrote:I get that the OP is showing his anti-fanboyism, and all the Na'Vi fans are here to rally the cause. But do we really need shit like this? Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 09:05 breakingties wrote:
you want to know why we're all following na vi?
because they're not chinese. that's why. Because of RACE? Nothing to do with Na'Vi as a team, nothing to do with Dendi's high-risk high-reward big plays, nothing to do with Puppey's mastermind leadership, nothing to do with successful unorthodox play, nothing to do with breaking the overpowered Naga/DS, nothing to do with the wacky dances and interviews, nothing to do with epic Blackholes and Chronospheres, but because all the OTHER teams are Chinese? And you say "we" as if all Na'Vi fans support the team for such a shallow, bigoted, ignorant and nonsensical reason? I just find it so sad that so many TLers would rise up, pitchforks in hand, behind the banner of inquisition when someone like Destiny (off the top of my head) gives a racist remark, going so far as to fucking e-mail Razer about it. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of the witch-hunters weren't even black. Was it all because they were trying to fit in? Appear to be a positive member of the "community"? Then when it comes to the Chinese, everyone chimes in. How pathetically hypocritical. And how disappointing is it that the previous champions are getting cheers from certain morons just because they're not Chinese. I don't quite get it. Is it because white dudes get raped in BW/SC2, and in fighting games, and they're treating DotA2/Na'Vi as their "last stand"? Or is it a western cultural thing to hate the rising power that isn't white? Anyone explain?
i support the continent i come from. a very small amount of people on TL are from the asian world. its perfectly normal to support the underdog. chinese teams have been dominating the tourny and now a none chinese team makes it to the finals.
get off your moral highhorse.
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Whats the problem with a team having fans? oh nvm guys its killing esports how is this possible
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Of course it's about race...
Just look at the international 2 stream chat on twitch or own3d. There's nonstop China flaming and the word "chink" appears constantly.
Lets not be delusional, people cheer for them because they're white and to deny this would be a head-scratcher...
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On September 03 2012 11:47 Mataza wrote:
Because they don´t do "4 protect 1"
It´s a team game and they don´t sacrifice players to hard support roles.
Pros doing this lead to public games doing it too. So sick of people demanding hard support because of my picks.
Do you watch Dota?
What does XBOCT do every game?
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Personality. It would be like asking someone 10 years ago why the prefered Chad Johnson to technically superior Marvin Harrison ~
Also chinese teams have very little exposure in the west when compared to their euro/na counterparts.
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On September 03 2012 12:58 svi wrote:
Of course it's about race...
Just look at the international 2 stream chat on twitch or own3d. There's nonstop China flaming and the word "chink" appears constantly.
Lets not be delusional, people cheer for them because they're white and to deny this would be a head-scratcher...
People are racist on the internet, therefor all Navi fans are racists. :|
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On September 03 2012 13:06 myopia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 12:58 svi wrote:
Of course it's about race...
Just look at the international 2 stream chat on twitch or own3d. There's nonstop China flaming and the word "chink" appears constantly.
Lets not be delusional, people cheer for them because they're white and to deny this would be a head-scratcher... People are racist on the internet, therefor all Navi fans are racists. :|
This post is so ignorant I don't know if I should laugh or make fun of you.
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On September 03 2012 13:06 myopia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 12:58 svi wrote:
Of course it's about race...
Just look at the international 2 stream chat on twitch or own3d. There's nonstop China flaming and the word "chink" appears constantly.
Lets not be delusional, people cheer for them because they're white and to deny this would be a head-scratcher... People are racist on the internet, therefor all Navi fans are racists. :|
People are almost never racist to koreans, from what I've seen in SC2 streams.
I can't watch a DOTA2 china vs EU stream for 2 mins without seeing a discussion on "soulless chinks" or how they're essentially slaves who play 24/7.
TBH I've watched streams of a lot of games (fighting games, starcraft, WC3), and I've never seen any racism until in DOTA2.
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I'm not going to speak for every Navi fan, but as somebody who has only started watching Dota 2 within the last year, I've had very little exposure to Chinese teams. They play in their own insular lan tourneys in China for the most part, so if I just watch the tournaments like The Defense or Dreamhack then all I see is western teams. Navi is the best of those western teams so naturally they have a lot of fans.
As for Dendi himself, he is an exciting player to watch, was arguably the best player in the first international, and is a very popular streamer.
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On September 03 2012 13:15 svi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 13:06 myopia wrote:On September 03 2012 12:58 svi wrote:
Of course it's about race...
Just look at the international 2 stream chat on twitch or own3d. There's nonstop China flaming and the word "chink" appears constantly.
Lets not be delusional, people cheer for them because they're white and to deny this would be a head-scratcher... People are racist on the internet, therefor all Navi fans are racists. :| People are almost never racist to koreans, from what I've seen in SC2 streams. I can't watch a DOTA2 china vs EU stream for 2 mins without seeing a discussion on "soulless chinks" or how they're essentially slaves who play 24/7. TBH I've watched streams of a lot of games (fighting games, starcraft, WC3), and I've never seen any racism until in DOTA2.
Racism may or may not be a problem specific to Dota, my issue with your post was how it implies every fan has this ulterior skin-colored motive. This whole thread is people using broad brushes to paint everyone on either side in a negative light. Can't I just be a normal dude that likes the good games that Navi provide?
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EPT
