EPTGirl faces death for burning "something" - Page 8
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EmperorKira
United Kingdom107 Posts
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:58 Foblos wrote: I don't care to start a religious argument, but after reading the first few pages of responses to this thread I feel like adding some fact would be helpful for people to understand why this is taking place. I'll keep it as short as possible without adding nuances or rhetoric for simplicity. Pakistan is a country that is governed by a Muslim Theocracy. That means that Muslim holy law, or Shariah law is the law that governs the country. It is not ruled by democracy, or "logical law," as some have said, but rather by what the authors of the Quran and Hadiths said centuries ago. A synopsis of what laws this includes is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia but for those who don't want to read, some highlights include women being required to be veiled in public, the death penalty for blasphemy, and marriage ordinations. It is important to this case because as a Christian, this young lady and her family have already committed blasphemy by certain standards and come Islamic sects would have them executed for that alone. There is prejudice, in many cases, against Christians and other non-Muslims in these sorts of theocracies and simply seeing something with Arabic writing on it burned is enough to incite calls for death. It doesn't, and won't make sense to many of us in the Western world, but that is the logical path that their thinking entails...at least in part. Being a Christian isn't blasphemous. The Abhrahamic faiths began with Judaism, after which came Christianity, after which came Islam. The Jews are waiting for the messiah. Christians believe Jesus was the messiah. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, but did not die on the cross. They believe Muhammed was the final prophet, after which there will be no other until the day of Judgement. Being a Christian, as such, is not heretical, because you still acknowledge god, the same god as the muslims. The same goes for Jews, they follow the same god as the others do. They just aren't up to the latest "rulebook." Jews and Christian do have to pay a tax in order to live under Muslim rule, a peculiar bit of discrimination that most muslims, strangely enough, consider to be the shining example of their tolerance. Having said that, a lot have a sort of master-faith complex, where Islam is the greatest religion of the world and its followers are vastly superior to all others. It isn't unique in that, but it is undoubtedly the most fanatical in this conviction. For example, a muslim man can marry a Christian girl, but a muslim girl cannot marry a christian man. Other popular ideas are things like the belief that literally all scientific progress in human history has originated from Islam and the Quran. Many of these ideas are so detached from any sense of reality that it is hard to really argue against it, because the person believing it is clearly not inhabting the same reality as the rest of us. The only heretical belief is rejecting monotheism. Islam is obsessed with the concept of the oneness of god. Christians, as a result, do face a lot of discrimination and harassement because their belief in the trinity is considered against the oneness of god. Not many people seem to be aware, but it is Christians that are suffering a great deal more persecution than Muslims at this point in time. A lot of attacks, especially in Africa, go unreported. So, not heretical, but definitely running counter to Islam. The Jews get the worst of it because they not only rejected the previous prophet (Jesus) but they are well documented as having rejected Muhammed when he came to visit them. That wasn't something that Muhammed ever forgot. If you're a Hindu though, I wouldn't risk going to any seriously Islamic nations. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
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tianGO
Argentina591 Posts
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country? "Innocent until proven guilty" ??? Oh please.. That's a disgusting generalization. I live in a "third world country", and no matter how fucked up our system is, that shit would never happen here nowadays. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:07 GT350 wrote: There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing. I'm sorry, where in the world do people of any other religion exhibit such behaviour on a comparable scale? So what if not all X's are Y's when all Y's are X's. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:17 EmperorKira wrote: It has nothing to do with religion. You think that christianity changed over hundreds of years? No, the bible is the same. If that's the case, why is there no wars in christianity's name, no inquisition etc..? It's because its not the religion itself, its the people. People in muslim nations are far more uneducated, poor, etc... than in christian nations. It's just how it is. The whole honor killing for example isn't religion specific really, its a cultural thing just like how women being totally covered from head to toe in Saudi isn't something said in the koran, its a cultural thing. Stop blaming the religion and blame the backwater culture. Christianity has changed enormously in the last 100 years. Did you think that "love thy neighbour," was ever the standard? The message was hellfire, through and through. You were expected to submit to the authority of the church and live your life according to what they decreed. Priests would come over to your house and ask if everything was alright if your wife hadn't had a child in over a year. Surely you weren't using condoms? These days? Christians are almost stumbling over one another declaring the most loving version of the gospel. "Everyone can go to heaven! Just be nice!" "Hell? No, I don't believe that a loving god would make such a place." As for the religious garment for muslim women, it comes in various styles. The Hijab, the garment that leaves the face uncovered, is the most in-line with Islamc teachings, ordering women to avert their gaze and be modest by covering their hair and hands. The Niqab is the one that covers everything but the eyes, sometimes shut off with an aditional piece of cloth. This is less in line with the Quran (there is no decree to cover the face) but can be justified by using the Quran. Whilst Muhammed ordered women to be modest and cover everything but their faces, his own women were entirely veiled. As such, many muslims argue that, in order to be a good muslim (and Muhammed is considered the perfect muslim) they should veil their own women, so as to better emulate Muhammed. But this garb is more cultural, being mostly restricted to Pakistan/Saudi-Arabia/Afghanistan. In a country like Iran you would be hard pressed to find one. Still, even amongst these two there are wide varities. For example, some women argue that you need to wear an additional cover that masks your curves, where as many, more modern, muslim women wear Hijab's that sometimes even accentuate the curves. Honor killings are indeed not inherently Islamic, but have become somewhat of a cultural hybrid. Pasthun culture places a high value on vengeance. All slights and offenses are remembered and will, as a Lannister would say, be paid back. But, because things aren't always clear, one revenge can cause another revenge. After accumilating enough offenses, entire blood feuds can be started which are essentially open war between families, tribes, or towns. Adding onto this, Pashtun culture has a unique way of viewing chastity. We are a very individual society, and even we place some value on a women's chastity, but if a women has sex with a lot of men (fine by me btw, I believe people have every right to use their own body in whatever way they want) she is often called a slut. She made the "mistake" so she gets the blame. Her person is degraded by words like "slut" or "whore." Pashtun culture is different and far more collectivist in its approach. (dicatated by the Pashtunwali, a code of life) Protecting women is covered under the subset of "Namus" which deals with their physical safety, but also their spiritual safety, under which chastity is included. But, Namus also applies to men, but not in that they must also protect their chastity. The sexual behaviour of their sisters/daughters reflects back onto their person. So if their sister has sex before marriage, she isn't just a slut, but all those negative connotations of the word slut, are also transffered onto the brother/father, thus humiliating him just as much, if not greater for failing to prevent it. That is where the honour killings come from. The only way to restore his own, and his family's honour, is by murdering his sister, thus erasing the dishonour to some degree. Pashtun culture has, to some degree, intermixed with Islam when its people were converted. It has given the Pashtunwali code a divine mandate, and also gave the code a vehicle (Islam) to spread under. So, you are partly right in that it is culture, but not exclusively so. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:17 EmperorKira wrote: It has nothing to do with religion. You think that christianity changed over hundreds of years? No, the bible is the same. If that's the case, why is there no wars in christianity's name, no inquisition etc..? It's because its not the religion itself, its the people. People in muslim nations are far more uneducated, poor, etc... than in christian nations. It's just how it is. The whole honor killing for example isn't religion specific really, its a cultural thing just like how women being totally covered from head to toe in Saudi isn't something said in the koran, its a cultural thing. Stop blaming the religion and blame the backwater culture. On the same note there was a case a couple of years ago of a couple being burried alive in India, in a Hindu village, for marrying against their families' wishes. Christianity fuels hatred and even violence against homosexuals in Central and Eastern Europe. I wouldn't say it's 100% religion or 100% culture. Religious leaders tend to support some of the worst instincts in a culture, especially when it agrees with their interpretation of "holy texts". But once there's a consensus on an issue on a cultural level religion tends to back down. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:24 tianGO wrote: That's a disgusting generalization. I live in a "third world country", and no matter how fucked up our system is, that shit would never happen here nowadays. You won't be for long  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_economy Don't get too offended lol | ||
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:07 GT350 wrote: There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing. On August 21 2012 19:13 Agathon wrote: From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously?? If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised". http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-europe.html | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
Can we agree that if you have to use http://www.billionbibles.org/ in your arguments, you actually have nothing in your side and that you are wrong? | ||
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
And then? I really need to count every muslim in the pictures in order to show you that they are not "all the muslims" or are you smart enough to get it by yourself? | ||
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:37 Sea_Food wrote: Can we agree that if you have to use http://www.billionbibles.org/ in your arguments, you actually have nothing in your side and that you are wrong? Just google sharia europe, you will get the point. | ||
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
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Kyrillion
Russian Federation748 Posts
Three things: 1. She is a minor 2. She may have a mental condition 3. There is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that it was a Quran that she burned Seems to me the ones who want to condemn her may have a mental condition. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
I've been to a few mosques, met a few Muslims that seemed to be very nice people somewhat akin to evangelical Christians, but they've been the exception rather than the rule. More often than not I've been received with scorn and mistrust, even in the absence of any kind of religious discussion. Islam is hardly unique in its barbarism, but it is unique in how rather than gradually becoming more benign and accepting like Christianity has become in the last 100 years or so, it's somehow becoming more radicalized and insane. It worries me. The future of Europe in particular worries me. | ||
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:52 Kyrillion wrote: Seems to me the ones who want to condemn her may have a mental condition. When a mental condition is shared with others, like a virus of the mind, on such a big scale that next generations suffer from it too, even for 1000's of years, it's called religion. | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:45 Technique wrote: Just google sharia europe, you will get the point. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBpnNqViZDk That video just takes things out of context. Sure there are crazy muslims, but FYI there are also crazy christians, jews, atheist, everything. The video tells quaran teacheas people to kill non mulsims. Guess what the bible and old testament say the same thing about what to do to non believers. Calm the fuck down. | ||
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Gangnam Style
111 Posts
Instead of debating shit - who here has any actual ideas/solutions? What can we do to pressure our government to influence their government? Etc. | ||
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:45 Technique wrote: Just google sharia europe, you will get the point. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBpnNqViZDk Believe me or not, but 99% of the time, when i google something, i find it... Because you hate muslim, you google bad things about muslims (on biased websites, but it doesn't even matter). It's not that easy, you must be so proud ! Did you imagine googling like "layman islam"? Or..."Peace Islam"...or "Islam in secular states" ? Or "Muslim friend christian"? Or maybe it burns your fingers when you try? You don't know anything about muslims, you just hate them and you don't even know why. | ||
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On August 21 2012 21:01 Sea_Food wrote: That video just takes things out of context. Sure there are crazy muslims, but FYI there are also crazy christians, jews, atheist, everything. The video tells quaran teacheas people to kill non mulsims. Guess what the bible and old testament say the same thing about what to do to non believers. Calm the fuck down. Hence my original comment, welcome back to the 13/1500s that got a bunch of people here upset. But it's the truth. | ||
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