|
On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
|
These areas of the world are drastically behind in civility, but that is how they conduct things. A heavily religious society sees little err in decisions like these, hopefully they will go on evidence though.
|
On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
This is a little more than a case of crazy people doing crazy shit. When a law like this (blasphemy = death) even exists in the 21st century it tells you that Pakistan's ruling elite support this law. You could say the leaders of Pakistan are crazy, but then what of the people themselves... Are they also crazy? Was this government not democratically elected?
Does burning a Christian Bible or Jewish Torah or a cross in Pakistan warrant a death penalty? Is this girl not being singled out for being Christian? Are non-Muslims even safe in Pakistan anymore?
|
On August 22 2012 05:49 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote:
once again religion causes problems ... I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit. "With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
|
On August 22 2012 05:38 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 00:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote:
What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D: They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part. That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s. If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are in fact relatively progressive. It's the people of SA who tend to be Islamist. Therefore, our support of SA actually works against fundamental Islam by keeping a secular king in power.
Where the heck did you hear that? I am honestly intrigued. It is one of the most astonishing things I've heard in weeks
Bro, Saud is the most Islamist king out there. The most extreme form of Sharia, yes much worse than in Iran, is the law of the land. Wahhabism is the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, and it is the most conservative and radical. It's not simply that the people are Islamist. The government mandates it. It is the law and the king is in full support of it and would not have anything else.
A secular king would have huge issues with a country being the most religiously fundamentalist country in the world at that, so that wouldn't make sense at all either. Also, if he were secular and the people were as Islamist as they are, there'd be revolts haha. You know how fundies in that part of the world get.
|
On August 21 2012 05:06 Baio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote:
What more are you going to expect from a third world country? a third world country with nuclear weapons...
if they had nukes they would be halfway to Isreal by now, as soon as they do complete a nuke they will do just this as they have said.
--------
On topic: Pretty pathetic, much of the Middle East really looks like some of the worst places to be
|
On August 22 2012 06:20 TheBatman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:06 Baio wrote:On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote:
What more are you going to expect from a third world country? a third world country with nuclear weapons... if they had nukes they would be halfway to Isreal by now, as soon as they do complete a nuke they will do just this as they have said. -------- On topic: Pretty pathetic, much of the Middle East really looks like some of the worst places to be
It apparently wasn't always like that. Iran once had a democracy that the CIA overthrew. Even though we put in a dictator, the society was extremely secular and religious conservatism largely absent. Iraq used to be a pretty strongly developing country, but we killed it with 12 years of sanctions and the Iraq War. I've met people from there. Things were a lot better in all aspects of life. On top of that, Islamism has grown significantly (especially considering the primary party in the ruling coalition was an Islamic extremist/terror group). Quite surprising considering this is the same country that opposed Islamic extremism more than any non-Muslim country did before 9/11.
Hezbollah is rising in Lebanon. Libya is now ruled by Islamists. Egypt's government is taken by the Muslim Brotherhood, although the military still holds power in the country. Of course the Gulf Arabs are all crazy Islamists for the most part. Pakistan is religiously fanatical as well. Syria is currently in revolution with Islamists leading the revolt iirc.
Yeah at this point, the only reasonable countries in the whole Mideast/N. Africa are Turkey, Lebanon (unless hezbollah takes over), Tunisia, and Israel, although Israel seems kind of aggressive as of late.
|
On August 22 2012 06:13 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:38 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 00:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote:
What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D: They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part. That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s. If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are in fact relatively progressive. It's the people of SA who tend to be Islamist. Therefore, our support of SA actually works against fundamental Islam by keeping a secular king in power. Where the heck did you hear that? I am honestly intrigued. It is one of the most astonishing things I've heard in weeks Bro, Saud is the most Islamist king out there. The most extreme form of Sharia, yes much worse than in Iran, is the law of the land. Wahhabism is the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, and it is the most radical. It's not simply that the people are Islamist. The government mandates it... A secular king would have huge issues with a country being the most religiously fundamentalist country in the world at that, so that wouldn't make sense at all either.
The operative word there was "relatively". I'm not particularly familiar with SA, but is it not true that the population is mostly extremely conservative Muslims? From what I've read of King Abdullah, he also seems to be relatively liberal: he's cracked down on terrorists as harshly as only a dictator can, he's made judicial reforms to weaken Islamist influence, he replaced the head of the religious police with a more moderate cleric, and allowed women to compete in the Olympics for the first time.
|
On August 22 2012 06:02 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:49 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote:
once again religion causes problems ... I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit. "With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
Though there may be some that do, the bad people in religion don't just join and take the cover or excuse of religion. They really do believe in some of the nasty, evil stuff written in those books. And best of all they are convinced that they have an omnipotent, omniscient being on their side. Yes, your experiences with religion may give you the picture you described, but if you read the texts you'll see religion is our primitive attempt at making sense of the world, as well as an attempt to use this primitive sense to dominate the minds of others. It's not just some desert dude trying to preach hippiedom and love for all mankind. It's filled with fear mongering and hate as well. It really comes down to whether you'd like to accept all of the religion or only some of it.
|
On August 22 2012 06:30 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 06:13 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On August 22 2012 05:38 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 00:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote:
What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D: They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part. That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s. If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are in fact relatively progressive. It's the people of SA who tend to be Islamist. Therefore, our support of SA actually works against fundamental Islam by keeping a secular king in power. Where the heck did you hear that? I am honestly intrigued. It is one of the most astonishing things I've heard in weeks Bro, Saud is the most Islamist king out there. The most extreme form of Sharia, yes much worse than in Iran, is the law of the land. Wahhabism is the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, and it is the most radical. It's not simply that the people are Islamist. The government mandates it... A secular king would have huge issues with a country being the most religiously fundamentalist country in the world at that, so that wouldn't make sense at all either. The operative word there was "relatively". I'm not particularly familiar with SA, but is it not true that the population is mostly extremely conservative Muslims? From what I've read of King Abdullah, he also seems to be relatively liberal: he's cracked down on terrorists as harshly as only a dictator can, he's made judicial reforms to weaken Islamist influence, he replaced the head of the religious police with a more moderate cleric, and allowed women to compete in the Olympics for the first time.
Correct. You won't find more conservative Muslims. Wahhabism is the most conservative form of Islam, a very radical version of Sunnism. In large part, the society is like that due to govt. laws and related things, just like in Iran. And if you know Iranian history, they were probably more secular than many Christian countries before Khomeini came back. Quite a contrast to the last 30 years.
No government likes insurrection and terrorism in their country, even if they are both religious fanatics. A couple minor things that the rest of the world takes for granted is hardly liberal. In fact, he may have been appeasing someone/something. Actually, Saudi Arabia is under a lot of pressure for changing its ... relatively archaic society, especially since it is a huge oil power and everyone has their eyes on them.
The fact that a lot more has not been done surprises me. If the Iraqis turned a semi-Islamist monarchial state into a full-fledged secular nation back in the 50s with little effort (although many of the Shiites would become radicalized by Khomeini, sadly), I'm sure a king with absolute power with the blessings of the United States of America and supposedly by the Muslim god as well would do everything in his power to reform society if he was actually secular, rather than a couple infinitesimal changes because the whole international community is being anal about how absolutely frightening Saudi society is. I wish really wish we would pressure them more, but our primary interest is in their oil and in their fealty. It's the way politics works..
|
On August 22 2012 06:02 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:49 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote:
once again religion causes problems ... I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit. "With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
I've encountered otherwise good people who are staunchly opposed to gays, abortion, separation of church and state, and the teaching of evolution, all due to their religion. And they're insistent on brainwashing their children with the same nonsense.
|
On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
Hitler wasn't an atheist.
|
she should play starcraft.
|
On August 22 2012 06:02 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:49 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote:
once again religion causes problems ... I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit. "With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
I think most religions are very concerned with telling people what to do. All religions also seem to have things that are sacred and things that are taboo. I also think religions need to be resistant to change if they want credibility, you can't change shit on a whim. This combination makes religion almost inherently problematic. It drives many of its followers to infringe on the freedoms of non-believers. Even in the most enlightened societies of today, large mainstream religious groups still push political agendas that are partly or wholly based on scripture. In this sense, I think religion is definitely the problem.
People's personal beliefs do not concern me. But religious beliefs are very rarely personal.
|
You guys know how we make fun of the T rex now on the internet for having tiny little arms, unable to accomplish simple tasks? Well when we're in the dinosaurs place and some even more awesome species of carbon based life form is digging up our old shit, they are going to have a god damn laugh or two at shit like this.
|
turning into another "religion is evil" thread.
Couple of points I like to add. I believe Pakistan has nuclear weapons. The strict blasphemy laws are quite recent. There has been a rise in religious violence in Pakistan, assassinations on Christian politicians who opposed the law that is being used in this case.
Of course i find it terrible to kill/life sentence a mentally disabled girl for something as harmless as burning or ripping out pages from a Koran. But if a democratic country choses to accept and enforce blasphemy laws there have to be some gray area cases to sort out the kinks in legal precedents etc. I think we should wait to bring out the pitchforks and torches until they have dealt with the issue.
|
Salem witch trials, anybody?
|
On August 22 2012 06:02 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:49 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 05:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote:
once again religion causes problems ... I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit. "With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
Pfft, people would not be anti-homosexuality but for religion. People would not murder little girls for burning the Koran if not for religion. There are countless examples of people who would not otherwise be against something but for what religion teaches them.
|
United States22154 Posts
well, I'm glad tl proved we could have a topic closely related to religion without devolving into a religion debate. Oh wait.
I'm closing this because people decided that this was the place to argue about religion, rather than the event in question.
Its sad because it was a well constructed op.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
