An 11-year-old Christian Pakistani girl could face the death penalty under the country's notorious blasphemy laws, after she was accused by her neighbours of deliberately burning sacred text, possibly the Quran.
The police, initially unwilling to take action, eventually charged the girl with blasphemy and took her into custody. The rest of the community, including her parents, fled.
There is disagreement about exactly what was burned. Some say it was a small pocket book of Qur'anic verses. Others claim it was pages of the Qur'an. "I looked at it but did not know exactly what it was but I could see it had words written in Arabic," a witness said. Authorities concede that no one actually saw her burning anything as the offence allegedly happened inside the house, and she was caught while finding somewhere to throw away the remains.
Another issue pertains to the girls health. Local news report that she has Down Syndrome but the Muslim community disagrees. "She is a completely normal girl," says one representative. As the largely male and grownup crowd gathered outside the house, a girl who said she knew Rifta said she did behave oddly – she talked to herself and walked in a peculiar way.
The other point of general agreement is that "the law should be followed". Unfortunately, the law in question is Pakistan's blasphemy law, which has a proven track record of ensnaring people on the flimsiest of evidence and being cynically used to intimidate communities or settle quarrels over money and property.
Three things: 1. She is a minor 2. She may have a mental condition 3. There is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that it was a Quran that she burned
which has a proven track record of ensnaring people on the flimsiest of evidence and being cynically used to intimidate communities or settle quarrels over money and property.
Whoa, anyone else get Deja Vu of those witchhunting laws? Those were true blasphemy laws, I followed those laws before the Islamic community copy us Christians/Catholics.
Hipster 4 life
On a related note: What saddens me to the most is her family fled. Just so many justificatons to think of why they left, but the reality of them leaving is also heart-breaking.
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: CNN Report
An 11-year-old Christian Pakistani girl could face the death penalty under the country's notorious blasphemy laws, after she was accused by her neighbours of deliberately burning sacred text, possibly the Quran. .
As far as I can tell from this article the child hasn't been convicted yet or had a trial even so why is this being reported by CNN other than the shock value to generate hits/views?
I don't think the girl will be harmed, but the incident clearly shows how backwards oriented many people in Pakistan are. If I would be Christian I would definately leave the town for some time, lynchmobs might be looking for retaliation.
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: CNN Report
An 11-year-old Christian Pakistani girl could face the death penalty under the country's notorious blasphemy laws, after she was accused by her neighbours of deliberately burning sacred text, possibly the Quran. .
As far as I can tell from this article the child hasn't been convicted yet or had a trial even so why is this being reported by CNN other than the shock value to generate hits/views?
The authorities just try to save the girl from the mob who wants to see her burn. In german news they said that the police also arrested her family to make sure they are safe. The assumed mental condition seems to be the authority's way to prevent punishment
Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims" [edit] although i agree the public reaction is ridiculous to say the least but you have to understand that most of those people live and die by their religion and haven't had any eduction most likely other than from their religious leaders..
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: CNN Report
An 11-year-old Christian Pakistani girl could face the death penalty under the country's notorious blasphemy laws, after she was accused by her neighbours of deliberately burning sacred text, possibly the Quran. .
As far as I can tell from this article the child hasn't been convicted yet or had a trial even so why is this being reported by CNN other than the shock value to generate hits/views?
Because they are journalists. That means they do not generate hits/views, as you think. That industry is not completely about money.
What they do is generate interest and attention, possibly saving that girls life. You ever noticed how most people stop attacking others while demonstrating when they get filmed? Same principle, but you wouldn't know about demonstrations I guess...
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
You might be shunned, but it's pretty rare in the western world where the person would face the death penalty over it.
Laws or any other rules shouldn't cause a girls death at all. Children in general are innoccent because they don't even know the law. Would be sad ,if she realy dies because of that.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims" [edit] although i agree the public reaction is ridiculous to say the least but you have to understand that most of those people live and die by their religion and haven't had any eduction most likely other than from their religious leaders..
Nowhere would she face charges for burning bible at home.
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: CNN Report
An 11-year-old Christian Pakistani girl could face the death penalty under the country's notorious blasphemy laws, after she was accused by her neighbours of deliberately burning sacred text, possibly the Quran. .
As far as I can tell from this article the child hasn't been convicted yet or had a trial even so why is this being reported by CNN other than the shock value to generate hits/views?
Because it's CNN and they would never pass up a story like this. Hell no news group would. This kind of story brings people to your site, generates hits on your ads, makes you money.
I do not know Pakistans judical system at all so I'm just gonna pray for this girls sake that its fair, unbiased, and logical. That should be enough to get her out safe and alive
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims" [edit] although i agree the public reaction is ridiculous to say the least but you have to understand that most of those people live and die by their religion and haven't had any eduction most likely other than from their religious leaders..
Nowhere would she face charges for burning bible at home.
And she would not really be shunned. At least in Germany most people would not care.
This seems overly sensationalist. Honestly though, I never get the obsession with the quran some Muslims have. Say one wrong word about something they hold sacred and you should be punished, instead of them just learning to stop feeling so overly sensitive. It's like with the cartoonist that was threatened for making cartoons about Mohammed. It's like, out of everything wrong with the world, why would the tipping point be someone making fun of Islam? Why not instead get upset about violence and poverty?
I know people won't be put to death in the west for burning a bible, edited my post.
These kind of newsposts just annoy the crap out of me because it's always turning out reactions like "let's hope the 17th century catches them up soon" and people feel morally superb while commenting on these subjects while it's very likely that it's overexaggerated because it's such a juicy topic.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
I think his point was it isn't "Muslims being weird" specifically, which is what most people will make of it, but it's backwards ideologies that were present in every religion - including Christianity - at some point in the past or currently, and that things like these are not a reason to hate on Muslims specifically.
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: CNN Report
Three things: 1. She is a minor 2. She may have a mental condition 3. There is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that it was a Quran that she burned
These should be more than enough to let her free.
Good points. IF! It was a democratic country.. they will not give two shits about what mental condition she has, especially if it may even be a religious text.
"I looked at it but did not know exactly what it was but I could see it had words written in Arabic,"
Yeah... about that witness testimony. Looks very constructive and insightful for something a witness might say. I'm not going to jump into the debate of the Pakistani society, but I'm just going to say that killing a child because she burned a piece of paper with words written in Arabic is quite a manifestation of lunacy.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
I know that everybody think that this is a horrible thing but before being judgemental i just want to urge you to think about the wonderful multicultural and religious piece of history and civilization this also represent. Where would we be without our culture and tradition today. Sure sad things may happen sometimes but much in the same way we don't just exterminate lions because they've eaten people, we shouldn't deny people their culture, religion and traditions just because it seems foreign (and sometimes horrible) to us.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Sorry but you went totally off topic. He said: 'There are no laws. It's presence. Inquisition happened quite some time ago, you know?
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
I think his point was it isn't "Muslims being weird" specifically, which is what most people will make of it, but it's backwards ideologies that were present in every religion - including Christianity - at some point in the past or currently, and that things like these are not a reason to hate on Muslims specifically.
In that case he was being completely fucking deranged.
I can't believe anyone would actually make that comparison, or any sort of effort to defend this. Not even here.
Soooooooooo they're going to potentially execute a minor with downs for a crime that she may or may not have committed? The only thing that the state has going is that the parents fled which means they know she did something wrong. If the parents were smart, they would have stayed as to eliminate all supicision.
On August 21 2012 05:12 Grumbels wrote: This seems overly sensationalist. Honestly though, I never get the obsession with the quran some Muslims have. Say one wrong word about something they hold sacred and you should be punished, instead of them just learning to stop feeling so overly sensitive. It's like with the cartoonist that was threatened for making cartoons about Mohammed. It's like, out of everything wrong with the world, why would the tipping point be someone making fun of Islam? Why not instead get upset about violence and poverty?
I completely agree with and like you. People in general have to get angry and have wild debates about things like use of language/cursing when there are 1,000,000 things going on the very second of their debate that are more important to discuss. Like who gives a shit if someone made fun of your religion or allegedly burned something that may have had something to do with your religion.. there are, as you said, violence and poverty happening! I guess that's just how things are with Islam. :[
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
We have moved somewhat beyond that since then, it has to be said.
On August 21 2012 05:23 Sandrosuperstar wrote: I know that everybody think that this is a horrible thing but before being judgemental i just want to urge you to think about the wonderful multicultural and religious piece of history and civilization this also represent. Where would we be without our culture and tradition today. Sure sad things may happen sometimes but much in the same way we don't just exterminate lions because they've eaten people, we shouldn't deny people their culture, religion and traditions just because it seems foreign (and sometimes horrible) to us.
WTF? Fuck multiculturalism if that means we should allow the execution of minors who are not fit to stand trial for burning piece of paper. Are you trolling? This cannot be your real opinion.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Surprised in all of two pages no one agreed with the verdict and said she has it coming to her.
People who try to rationalize this by bringing up witch hunt and the crusades clearly have a strange sense of moral or only a very vague understanding of European history...
On August 21 2012 05:15 reki- wrote: I know people won't be put to death in the west for burning a bible, edited my post.
These kind of newsposts just annoy the crap out of me because it's always turning out reactions like "let's hope the 17th century catches them up soon" and people feel morally superb while commenting on these subjects while it's very likely that it's overexaggerated because it's such a juicy topic.
Maybe you should be angry at the people who react this way, not at the newspost. Publically pointing out their fucked up legal system is always good.
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: Three things: 1. She is a minor 2. She may have a mental condition 3. There is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that it was a Quran that she burned
These should be more than enough to let her free.
Sure. However, "proof beyond reasonable doubt" (or lack thereof) is something you bring up at the trial, under US law. The general level needed to arrest is "probable cause".
Yes, given the skimpy evidence, any DA worth their salt would not bother to prosecute, it is still actionable.
Muslims as a religious group are not weird and I know many Muslims here in Canada. However the ones still living in the "east" tend to still be fairly barbaric and repressive as shown here. My father always told me when he was in the RAF in places like Saudi Arabia you couldn't go a week without there being a public execution in one of the villages near the base. To make it even worse most of the crimes were silly things like blasphemey and practicing black magic etc...
And just because we used to be as barbaric does not mean we should sit placidly while people are killed for no good reason.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
I think his point was it isn't "Muslims being weird" specifically, which is what most people will make of it, but it's backwards ideologies that were present in every religion - including Christianity - at some point in the past or currently, and that things like these are not a reason to hate on Muslims specifically.
In that case he was being completely fucking deranged.
I can't believe anyone would actually make that comparison, or any sort of effort to defend this. Not even here.
I don't think you have a strong grasp of the English language. Please reread what I said and then come back to me. If you still can't figure it out I'll spell it out for you.
On August 21 2012 05:25 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Soooooooooo they're going to potentially execute a minor with downs for a crime that she may or may not have committed? The only thing that the state has going is that the parents fled which means they know she did something wrong. If the parents were smart, they would have stayed as to eliminate all supicision.
In german news they said, the parents fled from lynch mobs, not from the police, there are no charges against the family. They were later arrested to secure their safety
On August 21 2012 05:29 Art.FeeL wrote: This Quran burning thing can't be new. I wonder how early muslims dealt with it. By murdering? Children? Terrible, terrible indeed.
This is most likely just total bullshit. The news gives no names or evidence that this actually happened. To get rid of a old copy of the Quran, you're not suppose to throw it away in the trash but rather bury, put it in flowing water or burn it. The fact that this poor girl burned the Quran isn't an offensive statement unless she was stomping on it or throwing it around and showing that she was disrespectful and had the intention of doing harm to the Quran.
Furthermore, just because it's Arabic text doesn't mean it's the Quran... Urdu and Arabic are extremely similar and Urdu being the native language of many Pakistani's, there would be no way this girl would be sentenced to death right away.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Sorry but you went totally off topic. He said: 'There are no laws. It's presence. Inquisition happened quite some time ago, you know?
To be fair he said they would be shunned not killed, im sure theres many places in the US where they would be shunned out of the community for doing something like that
On August 21 2012 05:23 Sandrosuperstar wrote: I know that everybody think that this is a horrible thing but before being judgemental i just want to urge you to think about the wonderful multicultural and religious piece of history and civilization this also represent. Where would we be without our culture and tradition today. Sure sad things may happen sometimes but much in the same way we don't just exterminate lions because they've eaten people, we shouldn't deny people their culture, religion and traditions just because it seems foreign (and sometimes horrible) to us.
WTF? Fuck multiculturalism if that means we should allow the execution of minors who are not fit to stand trial for burning piece of paper. Are you trolling? This cannot be your real opinion.
Well is it ok to circumcise minors? How should a child's basic right compare to the culture it's born in? Why is it ok for religions to baptize children when they can't even decide for themselves if they believe?
Why are people so eager to criticize other cultures but never dares to take the whole step and scrutinize our own culture, tradition and religion? What do we do that is detrimental to our prisoners, children and sick? How can we improve such things, are there any whistles that needs blowing?
kind of makes me feel less bad when the western military go over to these countries and blow the shit out of them in the name of democracy (aka profit), even corrupt as fuck western democracy is better than the dumb religious shit they have over there atm
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Sorry but you went totally off topic. He said: 'There are no laws. It's presence. Inquisition happened quite some time ago, you know?
To be fair he said they would be shunned not killed, im sure theres many places in the US where they would be shunned out of the community for doing something like that
You could also be shunned out of a community for being pro/anti pot legalization. Where are we going with this?
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
I think his point was it isn't "Muslims being weird" specifically, which is what most people will make of it, but it's backwards ideologies that were present in every religion - including Christianity - at some point in the past or currently, and that things like these are not a reason to hate on Muslims specifically.
In that case he was being completely fucking deranged.
I can't believe anyone would actually make that comparison, or any sort of effort to defend this. Not even here.
I don't think you have a strong grasp of the English language. Please reread what I said and then come back to me. If you still can't figure it out I'll spell it out for you.
I didn't bother reading all of it, I had my quota of angsty teenage anti-conformist rage for the day.
Nuances, a wonderful concept. You should look into it.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Sorry but you went totally off topic. He said: 'There are no laws. It's presence. Inquisition happened quite some time ago, you know?
To be fair he said they would be shunned not killed, im sure theres many places in the US where they would be shunned out of the community for doing something like that
You could also be shunned out of a community for being pro/anti pot legalization. Where are we going with this?
no you shouldn't, nothing wrong with pot, better than alcohol or those cancer sticks that are legal
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Sorry but you went totally off topic. He said: 'There are no laws. It's presence. Inquisition happened quite some time ago, you know?
To be fair he said they would be shunned not killed, im sure theres many places in the US where they would be shunned out of the community for doing something like that
Admittedly, we've moved past putting people to death for disrespecting the church in the 'West', and sure you can't legally put someone to death for doing so. I was trying to draw a comparison between the heavy theist influence in many let's call them 'Muslim' countries today and the practices of let's call them 'Christian' countries in the not-so-distant past. Separation of church from state is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of things and isn't exactly globally accepted.
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: CNN Report
An 11-year-old Christian Pakistani girl could face the death penalty under the country's notorious blasphemy laws, after she was accused by her neighbours of deliberately burning sacred text, possibly the Quran. .
As far as I can tell from this article the child hasn't been convicted yet or had a trial even so why is this being reported by CNN other than the shock value to generate hits/views?
You just answered your own question. Views = income = profit = what they are trying to achieve.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
I think his point was it isn't "Muslims being weird" specifically, which is what most people will make of it, but it's backwards ideologies that were present in every religion - including Christianity - at some point in the past or currently, and that things like these are not a reason to hate on Muslims specifically.
In that case he was being completely fucking deranged.
I can't believe anyone would actually make that comparison, or any sort of effort to defend this. Not even here.
I don't think you have a strong grasp of the English language. Please reread what I said and then come back to me. If you still can't figure it out I'll spell it out for you.
I didn't bother reading all of it, I had my quota of angsty teenage anti-conformist rage for the day.
Nuances, a wonderful concept. You should look into it.
I was merely trying to provide a different point of view
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Sorry but you went totally off topic. He said: 'There are no laws. It's presence. Inquisition happened quite some time ago, you know?
To be fair he said they would be shunned not killed, im sure theres many places in the US where they would be shunned out of the community for doing something like that
You could also be shunned out of a community for being pro/anti pot legalization. Where are we going with this?
no you shouldn't, nothing wrong with pot, better than alcohol or those cancer sticks that are legal
Way to completely miss the point 100% entirely. Also yes you would be shunned.
On August 21 2012 05:23 Sandrosuperstar wrote: I know that everybody think that this is a horrible thing but before being judgemental i just want to urge you to think about the wonderful multicultural and religious piece of history and civilization this also represent. Where would we be without our culture and tradition today. Sure sad things may happen sometimes but much in the same way we don't just exterminate lions because they've eaten people, we shouldn't deny people their culture, religion and traditions just because it seems foreign (and sometimes horrible) to us.
WTF? Fuck multiculturalism if that means we should allow the execution of minors who are not fit to stand trial for burning piece of paper. Are you trolling? This cannot be your real opinion.
Well is it ok to circumcise minors? How should a child's basic right compare to the culture it's born in? Why is it ok for religions to baptize children when they can't even decide for themselves if they believe?
Why are people so eager to criticize other cultures but never dares to take the whole step and scrutinize our own culture, tradition and religion? What do we do that is detrimental to our prisoners, children and sick? How can we improve such things, are there any whistles that needs blowing?
So, for you, there's no difference between putting some water on a baby and killing a child ?
On August 21 2012 05:23 Sandrosuperstar wrote: I know that everybody think that this is a horrible thing but before being judgemental i just want to urge you to think about the wonderful multicultural and religious piece of history and civilization this also represent. Where would we be without our culture and tradition today. Sure sad things may happen sometimes but much in the same way we don't just exterminate lions because they've eaten people, we shouldn't deny people their culture, religion and traditions just because it seems foreign (and sometimes horrible) to us.
WTF? Fuck multiculturalism if that means we should allow the execution of minors who are not fit to stand trial for burning piece of paper. Are you trolling? This cannot be your real opinion.
Well is it ok to circumcise minors? How much value should a child's basic right compared to the culture it's born in? Why is it ok for religions to baptize children when they can't even decide for themselves if they believe?
Why are people so eager to criticize other cultures but never dares to take the whole step and scrutinize our own culture, tradition and religion? What do we do that is detrimental to our prisoners, children and sick? How can we improve such things, are there any whistles that needs blowing?
In the world of anthropology, ethnocentricity is the enemy. You're taught to ignore strange things. They're not weird. They're not bad. They're not lesser. They're just different from ours. Tribal peoples aren't a part of an underdeveloped community, they just live differently than us. Foreign concepts and views of issues that we may disagree with aren't bad, they're just different.
But the line must be drawn somewhere. This is not exactly an unheard of issue. The general consensus, I believe, is to only intervene where humanity is being exploited, degraded, destroyed, humiliated needlessly, or harmed unreasonably. Much like a doctrine regarding war crimes.
If you would consider the state-imposed death of an 11 year old girl who may or may not have burned some specific paper, who has not been given the circumstances in life to understand the difference between the consequences of burning it and burning something else, to be a completely fair, normal, cultural difference, that speaks volumes about you, not the practice.
You may speak of circumcision when the topic is causing temporary pain to children based on religious beliefs. But this topic is about the possibility of intentionally murdering a child based on religious beliefs. That is where the world must step in; that is the line which must not be crossed. You may wish to see that line extended to include any form of harm, or you may wish to see that line abolished and allow everything and anything to happen. But the vast majority of people on this planet would not wish for the death of a child for any reason, let alone the burning of some paper.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims"
I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge there are no laws in the "west" that permit someone to be legally put to death for burning a holy text.
I hope you are trolling.
Let's just forget about the inquisition and such non-existent shit storms as the Salem witch trials.
Sorry but you went totally off topic. He said: 'There are no laws. It's presence. Inquisition happened quite some time ago, you know?
To be fair he said they would be shunned not killed, im sure theres many places in the US where they would be shunned out of the community for doing something like that
You could also be shunned out of a community for being pro/anti pot legalization. Where are we going with this?
no you shouldn't, nothing wrong with pot, better than alcohol or those cancer sticks that are legal
Way to completely miss the point 100% entirely. Also yes you would be shunned.
I see what you were trying to do but I was just pointing out your backwards opinion and how wrong you are
I would be interested to seeing a poll of how many people in pakistan feel this is right/wrong. Cause if its even above 1% in favor I'm done caring for the middle east. Theres literally no end to religious violence over there.
I think the initial reluctance of the authorities to even arrest the girl seems to be a good sign. That and some reports that say they did it to protect her instead of being thrown to the mob is good and I hope is true. I wouldn't get so upset at this point because while it seems some people over there might be taking this out of hand there seems to be some people who see this in a more level headed light.
Three things: 1. She is a minor 2. She may have a mental condition 3. There is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that it was a Quran that she burned
These should be more than enough to let her free.
Even if she was adult, had no mental condition affecting her and burned a Quran, no capital pushiment would be warranted. You in the US can be happy (now). We in Europe see the problem alot closer. We are getting turned into such a society. But the politicians prefer to close their eyes until it is too late. Islam is not a religion like the others. It's a form of society, there to subdue anything, that is not Islam.
I can't tell what part of this entire story is more retarded.
- The fact that they're making it sound like this is a done deal, when there's only a chance it happens, and indications point to the authorities arresting her to protect her from the mob - The fact that very few people have read that bit - The fact that burning the Quran is a bad thing....
I'm a Muslim. I'm also a Pakistani. I've burnt Qurans before
The statement from President Asif Ali Zardari said he has called for an urgent report on the incident and added that vulnerable sections of society must be protected "from any misuse of the blasphemy law."
"Blasphemy by anyone cannot be condoned but no one will be allowed to misuse blasphemy law for settling personal scores," said the president's spokesman, Farhatullah Babar.
Not the first time Pakistan's blasphemy laws got involved in controversy. Remember when a prominent politician got assassinated for trying to reform it? I think that was last year or two years ago.
On August 21 2012 06:11 Hassybaby wrote: I can't tell what part of this entire story is more retarded.
- The fact that they're making it sound like this is a done deal, when there's only a chance it happens, and indications point to the authorities arresting her to protect her from the mob - The fact that very few people have read that bit - The fact that burning the Quran is a bad thing....
I'm a Muslim. I'm also a Pakistani. I've burnt Qurans before
When does that ever come up in your life? I'm quite confused. "Oh it's Tuesday again, better burn my Quran and buy a new one"? I've never actually burned a book of any type. Nor have I ever had an excuse to.
back in the days in europe, we had alot of fun with this : Malleus Maleficarum, we kinda stopped , stupid and stuff But hey Killing PPL cause they burnt a book makes ur god happy? i dunno, but ur god seems to be pretty "different"
p.s.: Im an Atheist and all im saying is that murdering ppl cause they burned a book is retarded
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: CNN Report
An 11-year-old Christian Pakistani girl could face the death penalty under the country's notorious blasphemy laws, after she was accused by her neighbours of deliberately burning sacred text, possibly the Quran. .
As far as I can tell from this article the child hasn't been convicted yet or had a trial even so why is this being reported by CNN other than the shock value to generate hits/views?
Probably so the rest of the world continues to understand just how ass backwards the muslim world is.
On August 21 2012 06:11 Hassybaby wrote: I can't tell what part of this entire story is more retarded.
- The fact that they're making it sound like this is a done deal, when there's only a chance it happens, and indications point to the authorities arresting her to protect her from the mob - The fact that very few people have read that bit - The fact that burning the Quran is a bad thing....
I'm a Muslim. I'm also a Pakistani. I've burnt Qurans before
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country?
"Innocent until proven guilty" ???
Oh please..
I live in a third world country and this would never ever ever happen here.
Actually, Brazil is not a 3rd world country.
Economically it is not. But believe me when I say it is a 3rd world country. We have a really bad wealth distribution problem.
Hm? How then is it not economically a third world country?
Does the term BRIC ring a bell?
EDIT: I think there are more millionaires in Brasil than Canadians in Canada.
According to all-knowing Wikipedia there were 165,000 millionaires in Brazil in 2011 and 280,000 in Canada. So they are nowhere near as wealthy as Canada
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country?
"Innocent until proven guilty" ???
Oh please..
I live in a third world country and this would never ever ever happen here.
Actually, Brazil is not a 3rd world country.
Economically it is not. But believe me when I say it is a 3rd world country. We have a really bad wealth distribution problem.
Hm? How then is it not economically a third world country?
Does the term BRIC ring a bell?
EDIT: I think there are more millionaires in Brasil than Canadians in Canada.
According to all-knowing Wikipedia there were 165,000 millionaires in Brazil in 2011 and 280,000 in Canada. So they are nowhere near as wealthy as Canada
edit: this is getting a little off topic though.
The PIB of Brazil is way higher then the PIB of Canada, also, the fact that there are more Millionaires in Canada doesn't make the Brasil a 3rd world country.
Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
On August 21 2012 06:11 Hassybaby wrote: I can't tell what part of this entire story is more retarded.
- The fact that they're making it sound like this is a done deal, when there's only a chance it happens, and indications point to the authorities arresting her to protect her from the mob - The fact that very few people have read that bit - The fact that burning the Quran is a bad thing....
I'm a Muslim. I'm also a Pakistani. I've burnt Qurans before
How is burning the Quran a bad thing?
He said that the idea that burning a Quran is bad = retarded. So he agrees with you.
The only time you are wrong when burning a Quran, is when you are burning another person's Quran. If the Quran is your property, you can literally wipe your ass with it if you want.
The right to own and do with your own property what you like, is a million times more valuable than the supposed divinity of the Quran. Light a Quran on fire if you want, place it in the middle of your house on a shrine, do what you like, as long as it is your own.
The notion that others must respect your beliefs and do as you feel, be it through law or intimidation, is totalitarian. Sadly, authoritarian attitudes do not restrict themselves to these governments, but are also widely permiated throughout the society.
People love to restrict free speech (and yes, burning a book is free speech, protected under symbolic speech), all they want is to make sure it's the other guy's freedom that gets violated.
The problem isn't just the fact that a little girl's life is threatened over this, the larger problem is the belief that burning a Quran is wrong in the first place.
Some people like to compare to Christianity, and pretend like it is all the same, but it simply isn't. The cartoon riots left dozens dead and dealt millions of dollars in economic damage, and untold political damage. Islam is not the same as Christianity, that isn't media-bias, that is simple fact.
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
These countries really need a dick slapped in their face. To kill pepole cause of religion still in this day an age is just beyond retarded. and also due to no physical evidence.. wow
Last time i read news about this, the police has taken the girl to "custody" to protect her from all the people gathered around her house. They will release her as soon as the angry mob outside of her house calms down. She apparently has mental illness and the police are pretty sure she only burned papers which had Arabic text on it, nothing special.
Unfortunately, backwards countries use backwards legal systems. It's entirely within their scope to kill insane children for the possibility that they might have burned some unspecified quantity of one particular book. And there's nothing we can do about it, except try to raise standards of living worldwide so that those backwards nations get drawn into the present day.
On August 21 2012 06:44 Marke wrote: These countries really need a dick slapped in their face. To kill pepole cause of religion still in this day an age is just beyond retarded. and also due to no physical evidence.. wow
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims" [edit] although i agree the public reaction is ridiculous to say the least but you have to understand that most of those people live and die by their religion and haven't had any eduction most likely other than from their religious leaders..
On August 21 2012 06:11 Hassybaby wrote: I can't tell what part of this entire story is more retarded.
- The fact that they're making it sound like this is a done deal, when there's only a chance it happens, and indications point to the authorities arresting her to protect her from the mob - The fact that very few people have read that bit - The fact that burning the Quran is a bad thing....
I'm a Muslim. I'm also a Pakistani. I've burnt Qurans before
How is burning the Quran a bad thing?
He said that the idea that burning a Quran is bad = retarded. So he agrees with you.
The only time you are wrong when burning a Quran, is when you are burning another person's Quran. If the Quran is your property, you can literally wipe your ass with it if you want.
The right to own and do with your own property what you like, is a million times more valuable than the supposed divinity of the Quran. Light a Quran on fire if you want, place it in the middle of your house on a shrine, do what you like, as long as it is your own.
The notion that others must respect your beliefs and do as you feel, be it through law or intimidation, is totalitarian. Sadly, authoritarian attitudes do not restrict themselves to these governments, but are also widely permiated throughout the society.
People love to restrict free speech (and yes, burning a book is free speech, protected under symbolic speech), all they want is to make sure it's the other guy's freedom that gets violated.
The problem isn't just the fact that a little girl's life is threatened over this, the larger problem is the belief that burning a Quran is wrong in the first place.
Some people like to compare to Christianity, and pretend like it is all the same, but it simply isn't. The cartoon riots left dozens dead and dealt millions of dollars in economic damage, and untold political damage. Islam is not the same as Christianity, that isn't media-bias, that is simple fact.
I agree with you, but replace burning the Quran in Pakistan with the American flag in the US and many of my countrymen would consider it to be a grave crime, nevermind being up in arms about it (I love the flag, in fact I have a 3x5' but I'm not gonna go nuts if someone has issues with my country). The fact of the matter is the value of something is all subjective according to some majority group in a given demographic.
But of course, the main problem is this person, a young girl at that, is being executed. What the fuck. Her property or not, the girl isn't going to be executed because she destroyed another's property and Pakistan has an ungodly harsh penal system, but because she destroyed a Quran. A legal system should not work on the premises of an ascribed value beyond the monetary one when it comes to property.
Even when I was rather religious, if someone wrecked my bible, I'd just expect them to buy me a new one. The only reason why a bible or any book would be more special than another is if it is a gift from someone imo. Still, it's not at all worth killing someone over. lol
On August 21 2012 06:46 Acritter wrote: Unfortunately, backwards countries use backwards legal systems. It's entirely within their scope to kill insane children for the possibility that they might have burned some unspecified quantity of one particular book. And there's nothing we can do about it, except try to raise standards of living worldwide so that those backwards nations get drawn into the present day.
Just would like to note that many poorer nations in the world are not "backwards" in this regard. Even in western Asia/N. Africa, at least before Islamism started growing like wildfire over the past couple decades, many countries enforced secular legal and social policies, eg. Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran (before khomeini), Turkey, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, etc. Of course, all of these countries are going backwards now lol.
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country?
"Innocent until proven guilty" ???
Oh please..
Meh they are lower then a 3rd world country. More like scum off my shoe for this to even be contemplated. Death for basically burning paper? Really? Sorry but kiss my a** the people who wrote up this law should be the ones who should be burned.
On August 21 2012 06:55 Rebornlife wrote: Two things are the root of all evil.
1. Money 2. Religion
Nah don't blame evil on either of those. Evil exists because of human nature not cause of money or religion. Both of which were created by humans. Humans are the cause of evil just as they are of good.
The little detail that catches my attention is the witness' reason for thinking it was a holy text in the first place. It was something in arabic. Is this one of those places where books are so rare you can generally assume that the only ones that exist are religious or is this assumption just another layer of, by western and farther eastern standards, ridiculous?
On August 21 2012 06:11 Hassybaby wrote: I can't tell what part of this entire story is more retarded.
- The fact that they're making it sound like this is a done deal, when there's only a chance it happens, and indications point to the authorities arresting her to protect her from the mob - The fact that very few people have read that bit - The fact that burning the Quran is a bad thing....
I'm a Muslim. I'm also a Pakistani. I've burnt Qurans before
How is burning the Quran a bad thing?
He said that the idea that burning a Quran is bad = retarded. So he agrees with you.
The only time you are wrong when burning a Quran, is when you are burning another person's Quran. If the Quran is your property, you can literally wipe your ass with it if you want.
The right to own and do with your own property what you like, is a million times more valuable than the supposed divinity of the Quran. Light a Quran on fire if you want, place it in the middle of your house on a shrine, do what you like, as long as it is your own.
The notion that others must respect your beliefs and do as you feel, be it through law or intimidation, is totalitarian. Sadly, authoritarian attitudes do not restrict themselves to these governments, but are also widely permiated throughout the society.
People love to restrict free speech (and yes, burning a book is free speech, protected under symbolic speech), all they want is to make sure it's the other guy's freedom that gets violated.
The problem isn't just the fact that a little girl's life is threatened over this, the larger problem is the belief that burning a Quran is wrong in the first place.
Some people like to compare to Christianity, and pretend like it is all the same, but it simply isn't. The cartoon riots left dozens dead and dealt millions of dollars in economic damage, and untold political damage. Islam is not the same as Christianity, that isn't media-bias, that is simple fact.
I agree with you, but replace burning the Quran in Pakistan with the American flag in the US and many of my countrymen would consider it to be a grave crime, nevermind being up in arms about it (I love the flag, in fact I have a 3x5' but I'm not gonna go nuts if someone has issues with my country). The fact of the matter is the value of something is all subjective according to some majority group in a given demographic.
But of course, the main problem is this person, a young girl at that, is being executed. What the fuck. Her property or not, the girl isn't going to be executed because she destroyed another's property and Pakistan has an ungodly harsh penal system, but because she destroyed a Quran. A legal system should not work on the premises of an ascribed value beyond the monetary one when it comes to property.
Even when I was rather religious, if someone wrecked my bible, I'd just expect them to buy me a new one. The only reason why a bible or any book would be more special than another is if it is a gift from someone imo. Still, it's not at all worth killing someone over. lol
you should inform yourself about the story. The girl was only arrested after 1000 nutjobs threatened to burn the local christian district to the ground. The christians were already banished from their houses. They were adviced to not come back, otherwise they could be killed.
There are of course nutjobs everywhere (your example with the US flag), but I seriously doubt that you could find a large group of 1000 people in the US who gather and threaten to burn the district and kill the people living there because somebody did some stupid shit.
Lets get shocked at everything that happens everywhere...!
They are like 200 years behind in terms of social standards, dont expect them to catch/keep up with the rest of the civilized world in the next few years, it takes time and more than 1 generation to take place. If you look back a century or three, "horrible" things happened in europe and the americas, thankfully we did'nt have so called media to drown us with at that time.
On August 21 2012 06:11 Hassybaby wrote: I can't tell what part of this entire story is more retarded.
- The fact that they're making it sound like this is a done deal, when there's only a chance it happens, and indications point to the authorities arresting her to protect her from the mob - The fact that very few people have read that bit - The fact that burning the Quran is a bad thing....
I'm a Muslim. I'm also a Pakistani. I've burnt Qurans before
How is burning the Quran a bad thing?
He said that the idea that burning a Quran is bad = retarded. So he agrees with you.
The only time you are wrong when burning a Quran, is when you are burning another person's Quran. If the Quran is your property, you can literally wipe your ass with it if you want.
The right to own and do with your own property what you like, is a million times more valuable than the supposed divinity of the Quran. Light a Quran on fire if you want, place it in the middle of your house on a shrine, do what you like, as long as it is your own.
The notion that others must respect your beliefs and do as you feel, be it through law or intimidation, is totalitarian. Sadly, authoritarian attitudes do not restrict themselves to these governments, but are also widely permiated throughout the society.
People love to restrict free speech (and yes, burning a book is free speech, protected under symbolic speech), all they want is to make sure it's the other guy's freedom that gets violated.
The problem isn't just the fact that a little girl's life is threatened over this, the larger problem is the belief that burning a Quran is wrong in the first place.
Some people like to compare to Christianity, and pretend like it is all the same, but it simply isn't. The cartoon riots left dozens dead and dealt millions of dollars in economic damage, and untold political damage. Islam is not the same as Christianity, that isn't media-bias, that is simple fact.
I agree with you, but replace burning the Quran in Pakistan with the American flag in the US and many of my countrymen would consider it to be a grave crime, nevermind being up in arms about it (I love the flag, in fact I have a 3x5' but I'm not gonna go nuts if someone has issues with my country). The fact of the matter is the value of something is all subjective according to some majority group in a given demographic.
But of course, the main problem is this person, a young girl at that, is being executed. What the fuck. Her property or not, the girl isn't going to be executed because she destroyed another's property and Pakistan has an ungodly harsh penal system, but because she destroyed a Quran. A legal system should not work on the premises of an ascribed value beyond the monetary one when it comes to property.
Even when I was rather religious, if someone wrecked my bible, I'd just expect them to buy me a new one. The only reason why a bible or any book would be more special than another is if it is a gift from someone imo. Still, it's not at all worth killing someone over. lol
you should inform yourself about the story. The girl was only arrested after 1000 nutjobs threatened to burn the local christian district to the ground. The christians were already banished from their houses. They were adviced to not come back, otherwise they could be killed.
There are of course nutjobs everywhere (your example with the US flag), but I seriously doubt that you could find a large group of 1000 people in the US who gather and threaten to burn the district and kill the people living there because somebody did some stupid shit.
Thank you. I wasn't aware how severe the situation was. And even assuming if there were 1,000 nutjobs here that actually formed a mob to go destroying and killing people in a given area, law enforcement would break it up pretty quickly.
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country?
"Innocent until proven guilty" ???
Oh please..
Meh they are lower then a 3rd world country. More like scum off my shoe for this to even be contemplated. Death for basically burning paper? Really? Sorry but kiss my a** the people who wrote up this law should be the ones who should be burned.
On August 21 2012 06:55 Rebornlife wrote: Two things are the root of all evil.
1. Money 2. Religion
Nah don't blame evil on either of those. Evil exists because of human nature not cause of money or religion. Both of which were created by humans. Humans are the cause of evil just as they are of good.
I agree with that statement, perhaps "root" should be replaced with "driving force"
Welcome to Islamic Apartheid, the girl was born a Christian and thus is not even human. Suprised? Im not, name the Islamic nations which threat their miniorties as humans, not even turkey does let alone a backwards place as Pakistan.
I agree with you, but replace burning the Quran in Pakistan with the American flag in the US and many of my countrymen would consider it to be a grave crime, nevermind being up in arms about it (I love the flag, in fact I have a 3x5' but I'm not gonna go nuts if someone has issues with my country). The fact of the matter is the value of something is all subjective according to some majority group in a given demographic.
They wouldn't kill you over it though.
It is their right to be offended. Everyone may have whatever opinion they want, and express it. They may act on their feelings, as long as they do violate your person.
For example, if this girl burned a Quran, the muslims could consider that act offensive to themselves, use that information to judge that she is probably not a girl that shares their values, and thus not like her.
What they can't do is attack or murder her, nor demand that she does not make use of her right to free speech, be it literal or symbolic.
So no, the situation is not the same. Americans would not kill you over it. Even the most fanatical of patriots would probably just really dislike you and get really verbally agressive. Still, all part of the freedom of speech that all parties are entitled to.
But of course, the main problem is this person, a young girl at that, is being executed. What the fuck. Her property or not, the girl isn't going to be executed because she destroyed another's property and Pakistan has an ungodly harsh penal system, but because she destroyed a Quran. A legal system should not work on the premises of an ascribed value beyond the monetary one when it comes to property.
No, exactly, but it is part of the problem that these people generally believe they have the right to dictate what others can and cannot do.
It is perfectly fine to disagree with a person's actions, but the belief that you have the right to suspend theirs is quite another.
Even when I was rather religious, if someone wrecked my bible, I'd just expect them to buy me a new one. The only reason why a bible or any book would be more special than another is if it is a gift from someone imo. Still, it's not at all worth killing someone over. lol
We can certainly agree on that premise, it really isn't worth it to kill someone over a book.
Now to convince the people that murdered people by the dozens because someone drew a cartoon.
If I had the money I'd hire some rambo guy to break her free and bring her to the West and who shoots the people responsible for this shit during the rescue operation. Thats at least how it happens in the movies, sad that it does not work in RL, things would be so much easier :S
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
Lol what a fucking joke. There is very little I wouldn't give to send a video of myself burning a Quaran to these people and watch them erupt with anger. But are any of you really surprised? These are the same people that bury women in the sand and chuck rocks at their head until they die, in public. AND the ones throwing the rocks are often the family members!
I know I'll probably get banned or warned for saying those things but before I get called a racist 100 times I'd like to remind people that being racist and saying what actually is happening are two different things - for example; compared to their percent of the population, black people are far more likely to commit a crime than a white person. That is based off the FBI's crime statistics. Of course the Canadian government is too fucking afraid to include race as a variable in crime statistics -_-.
In conclusion to the Quaran thing - Surprising: No Horrific and wrong: YES
I agree with you, but replace burning the Quran in Pakistan with the American flag in the US and many of my countrymen would consider it to be a grave crime, nevermind being up in arms about it (I love the flag, in fact I have a 3x5' but I'm not gonna go nuts if someone has issues with my country). The fact of the matter is the value of something is all subjective according to some majority group in a given demographic.
They wouldn't kill you over it though.
It is their right to be offended. Everyone may have whatever opinion they want, and express it. They may act on their feelings, as long as they do violate your person.
For example, if this girl burned a Quran, the muslims could consider that act offensive to themselves, use that information to judge that she is probably not a girl that shares their values, and thus not like her.
What they can't do is attack or murder her, nor demand that she does not make use of her right to free speech, be it literal or symbolic.
So no, the situation is not the same. Americans would not kill you over it. Even the most fanatical of patriots would probably just really dislike you and get really verbally agressive. Still, all part of the freedom of speech that all parties are entitled to.
But of course, the main problem is this person, a young girl at that, is being executed. What the fuck. Her property or not, the girl isn't going to be executed because she destroyed another's property and Pakistan has an ungodly harsh penal system, but because she destroyed a Quran. A legal system should not work on the premises of an ascribed value beyond the monetary one when it comes to property.
No, exactly, but it is part of the problem that these people generally believe they have the right to dictate what others can and cannot do.
It is perfectly fine to disagree with a person's actions, but the belief that you have the right to suspend theirs is quite another.
Even when I was rather religious, if someone wrecked my bible, I'd just expect them to buy me a new one. The only reason why a bible or any book would be more special than another is if it is a gift from someone imo. Still, it's not at all worth killing someone over. lol
We can certainly agree on that premise, it really isn't worth it to kill someone over a book.
Now to convince the people that murdered people by the dozens because someone drew a cartoon.
No, I didn't say anyone here would be killing haha if you think that's what I meant. They'd just be really angry. Even if they were murderous, law enforcement would break them up, rather than fearing the mob and basically giving into it like in the Pakistani case. The other issue is that I doubt the angry mob in Pakistan is some isolated group. There probably would have been the same reaction in many parts of the country, which doesn't really give the police much of a choice but to give in since the people don't listen to "stfu and sit down" when it comes to these religious matters.
On August 21 2012 07:19 knOxStarcraft wrote: Lol what a fucking joke. There is very little I wouldn't give to send a video of myself burning a Quaran to these people and watch them erupt with anger. But are any of you really surprised? These are the same people that bury women in the sand and chuck rocks at their head until they die, in public. AND the ones throwing the rocks are often the family members!
I know I'll probably get banned or warned for saying those things but before I get called a racist 100 times I'd like to remind people that being racist and saying what actually is happening are two different things - for example; compared to their percent of the population, black people are far more likely to commit a crime than a white person. That is based off the FBI's crime statistics. Of course the Canadian government is too fucking afraid to include race as a variable in crime statistics -_-.
In conclusion to the Quaran thing - Surprising: No Horrific and wrong: YES
There is no link between the event in Pakistan and the crime rate in US. Please avoid this kind of racism out of the subject.
On August 21 2012 07:19 knOxStarcraft wrote: Lol what a fucking joke. There is very little I wouldn't give to send a video of myself burning a Quaran to these people and watch them erupt with anger. But are any of you really surprised? These are the same people that bury women in the sand and chuck rocks at their head until they die, in public. AND the ones throwing the rocks are often the family members!
I know I'll probably get banned or warned for saying those things but before I get called a racist 100 times I'd like to remind people that being racist and saying what actually is happening are two different things - for example; compared to their percent of the population, black people are far more likely to commit a crime than a white person. That is based off the FBI's crime statistics. Of course the Canadian government is too fucking afraid to include race as a variable in crime statistics -_-.
In conclusion to the Quaran thing - Surprising: No Horrific and wrong: YES
There is no link between the event in Pakistan and the crime rate in US. Please avoid this kind of racism out of the subject.
Ya reading through the thread more I'm surprised more people weren't shouting racism - so I'm sorry for bring it up, but nothing I said was racist, like I thought I made clear in the post.
Ugh. This is inexcusable. Theocracy is such a bad idea.
Somehow the threatening to burn down the christian district doesn't even bother me, it's just an example of religion making stupid conflicts. But jesus, they even want to execute one of their own children...
Side note, I dislike how the cultural relativists, automatic anti west crowd and holier-than-thou nonconformists come in and try to tell everyone how their opinion is irrelevant. Yeah let's just ignore everything that doesn't directly effect us, real healthy way of looking at the world.
On August 21 2012 05:01 AngryMag wrote: I don't think the girl will be harmed, but the incident clearly shows how backwards oriented many people in Pakistan are. If I would be Christian I would definately leave the town for some time, lynchmobs might be looking for retaliation.
lol, you would think so but alot of the time, if not most of the time, they do get harmed.
There are tons of similar cases on this site:http://britishpakistanichristian.blogspot.co.uk
Some of the stories make me sick to be honest....well almost.
On August 21 2012 05:01 AngryMag wrote: I don't think the girl will be harmed, but the incident clearly shows how backwards oriented many people in Pakistan are. If I would be Christian I would definately leave the town for some time, lynchmobs might be looking for retaliation.
lol, you would think so but alot of the time, if not most of the time, they do get harmed.
There are tons of similar cases on this site:http://britishpakistanichristian.blogspot.co.uk
Some of the stories make me sick to be honest....well almost.
I meant that she won't get harmed by the state, the mob is another matter, and yeah i agree if she just goes back to her house she and her whole family will be killed without a doubt
Pakistan is fucked up. The fact that they actually have this 'blasphemy' law is so absurd. It's like these guys are living in the early 1000's. I really hope their country and many of the surrounding ones get worked out, because it'd be a nice place to visit aesthetically if the god-damned law makers and people in power weren't so extreme. That and I want to see people live in peace....
On August 21 2012 05:15 reki- wrote: I know people won't be put to death in the west for burning a bible, edited my post.
These kind of newsposts just annoy the crap out of me because it's always turning out reactions like "let's hope the 17th century catches them up soon" and people feel morally superb while commenting on these subjects while it's very likely that it's overexaggerated because it's such a juicy topic.
No.
You don't need to be fully informed about this specific newspost to see the connection between a thousand previous newsposts where atrocities are committed in the name of religion.
You should be pleased, not annoyed, the vast majority of people here are responding in a fashion that warms my heart and restores my faith in humanity.
On August 21 2012 08:34 StateofReverie wrote: Can you even get arrested for blasphemy in the USA?
lol, like u would get arrested for blasphemy in any country that isnt completly fucking nuts its just so unbelivably fucked up, just imagine what wouldve happened if the crusaders had nuclear weapons
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
Fortunately, there is very little evidence for the case against her so unless Pakistan has a history of murdering people on the thinnest sliver of evidence, I don't think she'll die.
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
I don't care to start a religious argument, but after reading the first few pages of responses to this thread I feel like adding some fact would be helpful for people to understand why this is taking place. I'll keep it as short as possible without adding nuances or rhetoric for simplicity.
Pakistan is a country that is governed by a Muslim Theocracy. That means that Muslim holy law, or Shariah law is the law that governs the country. It is not ruled by democracy, or "logical law," as some have said, but rather by what the authors of the Quran and Hadiths said centuries ago. A synopsis of what laws this includes is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia but for those who don't want to read, some highlights include women being required to be veiled in public, the death penalty for blasphemy, and marriage ordinations. It is important to this case because as a Christian, this young lady and her family have already committed blasphemy by certain standards and come Islamic sects would have them executed for that alone. There is prejudice, in many cases, against Christians and other non-Muslims in these sorts of theocracies and simply seeing something with Arabic writing on it burned is enough to incite calls for death. It doesn't, and won't make sense to many of us in the Western world, but that is the logical path that their thinking entails...at least in part.
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
It has nothing to do with religion. You think that christianity changed over hundreds of years? No, the bible is the same. If that's the case, why is there no wars in christianity's name, no inquisition etc..? It's because its not the religion itself, its the people. People in muslim nations are far more uneducated, poor, etc... than in christian nations. It's just how it is. The whole honor killing for example isn't religion specific really, its a cultural thing just like how women being totally covered from head to toe in Saudi isn't something said in the koran, its a cultural thing. Stop blaming the religion and blame the backwater culture.
On August 21 2012 18:58 Foblos wrote: I don't care to start a religious argument, but after reading the first few pages of responses to this thread I feel like adding some fact would be helpful for people to understand why this is taking place. I'll keep it as short as possible without adding nuances or rhetoric for simplicity.
Pakistan is a country that is governed by a Muslim Theocracy. That means that Muslim holy law, or Shariah law is the law that governs the country. It is not ruled by democracy, or "logical law," as some have said, but rather by what the authors of the Quran and Hadiths said centuries ago. A synopsis of what laws this includes is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia but for those who don't want to read, some highlights include women being required to be veiled in public, the death penalty for blasphemy, and marriage ordinations. It is important to this case because as a Christian, this young lady and her family have already committed blasphemy by certain standards and come Islamic sects would have them executed for that alone. There is prejudice, in many cases, against Christians and other non-Muslims in these sorts of theocracies and simply seeing something with Arabic writing on it burned is enough to incite calls for death. It doesn't, and won't make sense to many of us in the Western world, but that is the logical path that their thinking entails...at least in part.
Being a Christian isn't blasphemous.
The Abhrahamic faiths began with Judaism, after which came Christianity, after which came Islam.
The Jews are waiting for the messiah.
Christians believe Jesus was the messiah.
Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, but did not die on the cross. They believe Muhammed was the final prophet, after which there will be no other until the day of Judgement.
Being a Christian, as such, is not heretical, because you still acknowledge god, the same god as the muslims. The same goes for Jews, they follow the same god as the others do. They just aren't up to the latest "rulebook."
Jews and Christian do have to pay a tax in order to live under Muslim rule, a peculiar bit of discrimination that most muslims, strangely enough, consider to be the shining example of their tolerance.
Having said that, a lot have a sort of master-faith complex, where Islam is the greatest religion of the world and its followers are vastly superior to all others. It isn't unique in that, but it is undoubtedly the most fanatical in this conviction.
For example, a muslim man can marry a Christian girl, but a muslim girl cannot marry a christian man.
Other popular ideas are things like the belief that literally all scientific progress in human history has originated from Islam and the Quran. Many of these ideas are so detached from any sense of reality that it is hard to really argue against it, because the person believing it is clearly not inhabting the same reality as the rest of us.
The only heretical belief is rejecting monotheism.
Islam is obsessed with the concept of the oneness of god. Christians, as a result, do face a lot of discrimination and harassement because their belief in the trinity is considered against the oneness of god.
Not many people seem to be aware, but it is Christians that are suffering a great deal more persecution than Muslims at this point in time. A lot of attacks, especially in Africa, go unreported.
So, not heretical, but definitely running counter to Islam. The Jews get the worst of it because they not only rejected the previous prophet (Jesus) but they are well documented as having rejected Muhammed when he came to visit them. That wasn't something that Muhammed ever forgot.
If you're a Hindu though, I wouldn't risk going to any seriously Islamic nations.
I can't help but feel that the thought process went something along the lines of 'burning something with arabic writing' + 'girl is christian' = 'must have been the Quran'.
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country?
"Innocent until proven guilty" ???
Oh please..
That's a disgusting generalization. I live in a "third world country", and no matter how fucked up our system is, that shit would never happen here nowadays.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
I'm sorry, where in the world do people of any other religion exhibit such behaviour on a comparable scale?
So what if not all X's are Y's when all Y's are X's.
On August 21 2012 19:17 EmperorKira wrote: It has nothing to do with religion. You think that christianity changed over hundreds of years? No, the bible is the same. If that's the case, why is there no wars in christianity's name, no inquisition etc..? It's because its not the religion itself, its the people. People in muslim nations are far more uneducated, poor, etc... than in christian nations. It's just how it is. The whole honor killing for example isn't religion specific really, its a cultural thing just like how women being totally covered from head to toe in Saudi isn't something said in the koran, its a cultural thing. Stop blaming the religion and blame the backwater culture.
Christianity has changed enormously in the last 100 years.
Did you think that "love thy neighbour," was ever the standard? The message was hellfire, through and through. You were expected to submit to the authority of the church and live your life according to what they decreed. Priests would come over to your house and ask if everything was alright if your wife hadn't had a child in over a year. Surely you weren't using condoms?
These days? Christians are almost stumbling over one another declaring the most loving version of the gospel.
"Everyone can go to heaven! Just be nice!"
"Hell? No, I don't believe that a loving god would make such a place."
As for the religious garment for muslim women, it comes in various styles.
The Hijab, the garment that leaves the face uncovered, is the most in-line with Islamc teachings, ordering women to avert their gaze and be modest by covering their hair and hands.
The Niqab is the one that covers everything but the eyes, sometimes shut off with an aditional piece of cloth. This is less in line with the Quran (there is no decree to cover the face) but can be justified by using the Quran. Whilst Muhammed ordered women to be modest and cover everything but their faces, his own women were entirely veiled.
As such, many muslims argue that, in order to be a good muslim (and Muhammed is considered the perfect muslim) they should veil their own women, so as to better emulate Muhammed. But this garb is more cultural, being mostly restricted to Pakistan/Saudi-Arabia/Afghanistan. In a country like Iran you would be hard pressed to find one.
Still, even amongst these two there are wide varities. For example, some women argue that you need to wear an additional cover that masks your curves, where as many, more modern, muslim women wear Hijab's that sometimes even accentuate the curves.
Honor killings are indeed not inherently Islamic, but have become somewhat of a cultural hybrid.
Pasthun culture places a high value on vengeance. All slights and offenses are remembered and will, as a Lannister would say, be paid back.
But, because things aren't always clear, one revenge can cause another revenge. After accumilating enough offenses, entire blood feuds can be started which are essentially open war between families, tribes, or towns.
Adding onto this, Pashtun culture has a unique way of viewing chastity.
We are a very individual society, and even we place some value on a women's chastity, but if a women has sex with a lot of men (fine by me btw, I believe people have every right to use their own body in whatever way they want) she is often called a slut.
She made the "mistake" so she gets the blame. Her person is degraded by words like "slut" or "whore."
Pashtun culture is different and far more collectivist in its approach. (dicatated by the Pashtunwali, a code of life)
Protecting women is covered under the subset of "Namus" which deals with their physical safety, but also their spiritual safety, under which chastity is included.
But, Namus also applies to men, but not in that they must also protect their chastity. The sexual behaviour of their sisters/daughters reflects back onto their person.
So if their sister has sex before marriage, she isn't just a slut, but all those negative connotations of the word slut, are also transffered onto the brother/father, thus humiliating him just as much, if not greater for failing to prevent it.
That is where the honour killings come from. The only way to restore his own, and his family's honour, is by murdering his sister, thus erasing the dishonour to some degree.
Pashtun culture has, to some degree, intermixed with Islam when its people were converted. It has given the Pashtunwali code a divine mandate, and also gave the code a vehicle (Islam) to spread under.
So, you are partly right in that it is culture, but not exclusively so.
On August 21 2012 19:17 EmperorKira wrote: It has nothing to do with religion. You think that christianity changed over hundreds of years? No, the bible is the same. If that's the case, why is there no wars in christianity's name, no inquisition etc..? It's because its not the religion itself, its the people. People in muslim nations are far more uneducated, poor, etc... than in christian nations. It's just how it is. The whole honor killing for example isn't religion specific really, its a cultural thing just like how women being totally covered from head to toe in Saudi isn't something said in the koran, its a cultural thing. Stop blaming the religion and blame the backwater culture.
On the same note there was a case a couple of years ago of a couple being burried alive in India, in a Hindu village, for marrying against their families' wishes. Christianity fuels hatred and even violence against homosexuals in Central and Eastern Europe. I wouldn't say it's 100% religion or 100% culture. Religious leaders tend to support some of the worst instincts in a culture, especially when it agrees with their interpretation of "holy texts". But once there's a consensus on an issue on a cultural level religion tends to back down.
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country?
"Innocent until proven guilty" ???
Oh please..
That's a disgusting generalization. I live in a "third world country", and no matter how fucked up our system is, that shit would never happen here nowadays.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
And then? I really need to count every muslim in the pictures in order to show you that they are not "all the muslims" or are you smart enough to get it by yourself?
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 19:13 Agathon wrote:
On August 21 2012 19:03 TheRealArtemis wrote:
On August 21 2012 18:20 leveller wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:42 AngryMag wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
I wonder how long we're going to go with weekly stories about Islamic fanaticism before even the most fervent multiculturalists and self-hating white people will be forced to admit that maybe, just maybe, something's up.
I've been to a few mosques, met a few Muslims that seemed to be very nice people somewhat akin to evangelical Christians, but they've been the exception rather than the rule. More often than not I've been received with scorn and mistrust, even in the absence of any kind of religious discussion.
Islam is hardly unique in its barbarism, but it is unique in how rather than gradually becoming more benign and accepting like Christianity has become in the last 100 years or so, it's somehow becoming more radicalized and insane. It worries me. The future of Europe in particular worries me.
Three things: 1. She is a minor 2. She may have a mental condition 3. There is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that it was a Quran that she burned
Seems to me the ones who want to condemn her may have a mental condition.
When a mental condition is shared with others, like a virus of the mind, on such a big scale that next generations suffer from it too, even for 1000's of years, it's called religion.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 19:13 Agathon wrote:
On August 21 2012 19:03 TheRealArtemis wrote:
On August 21 2012 18:20 leveller wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:42 AngryMag wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
Can we agree that if you have to use http://www.billionbibles.org/ in your arguments, you actually have nothing in your side and that you are wrong?
Just google sharia europe, you will get the point. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBpnNqViZDk
That video just takes things out of context.
Sure there are crazy muslims, but FYI there are also crazy christians, jews, atheist, everything.
The video tells quaran teacheas people to kill non mulsims. Guess what the bible and old testament say the same thing about what to do to non believers.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 19:13 Agathon wrote:
On August 21 2012 19:03 TheRealArtemis wrote:
On August 21 2012 18:20 leveller wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:42 AngryMag wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
Can we agree that if you have to use http://www.billionbibles.org/ in your arguments, you actually have nothing in your side and that you are wrong?
Just google sharia europe, you will get the point. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBpnNqViZDk
Believe me or not, but 99% of the time, when i google something, i find it...
Because you hate muslim, you google bad things about muslims (on biased websites, but it doesn't even matter). It's not that easy, you must be so proud !
Did you imagine googling like "layman islam"? Or..."Peace Islam"...or "Islam in secular states" ? Or "Muslim friend christian"? Or maybe it burns your fingers when you try?
You don't know anything about muslims, you just hate them and you don't even know why.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 19:13 Agathon wrote:
On August 21 2012 19:03 TheRealArtemis wrote:
On August 21 2012 18:20 leveller wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:42 AngryMag wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
Can we agree that if you have to use http://www.billionbibles.org/ in your arguments, you actually have nothing in your side and that you are wrong?
Just google sharia europe, you will get the point. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBpnNqViZDk
That video just takes things out of context.
Sure there are crazy muslims, but FYI there are also crazy christians, jews, atheist, everything.
The video tells quaran teacheas people to kill non mulsims. Guess what the bible and old testament say the same thing about what to do to non believers.
Calm the fuck down.
Hence my original comment, welcome back to the 13/1500s that got a bunch of people here upset.
What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
On August 21 2012 19:13 Agathon wrote:
On August 21 2012 19:03 TheRealArtemis wrote:
On August 21 2012 18:20 leveller wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:42 AngryMag wrote:
On August 21 2012 06:40 leveller wrote: Yeah lets take more freak cases of people being treated poorly, make it seem even worse and more freaky and influence people to hate muslims more. seems to be working great.
In Pakistan this is not a freak case, if you are accused of blasphemy or trying to change the laws regarding blasphemy, you are very likely to get killed
What I meant was that this is intended for westerners to circle jerk about how bad islam is and how great our western world is. I mean, religion IS bad and western libreralism is great, but I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of people being condemned to death over even smaller things than this all over the world at any given day, yet this story has hundreds of TL members raving about it.
So, you're saying news like this should just be discarded, because its intended as propaganda against islam, even though it happens with a regualar basis in certain places?
And it doesnt happen all over the world? Give me examples of this happening in Japan, Denmark, australia, germany, USA, UK, etc.. Its only muslim nations.
Things like this happens weekly in places like Pakistan and egypt. Islam has a pretty bad rep, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Sure, some are indeed "freak" cases, but lets face it. Islam is simply the exact opposite of the western world.
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
From "Pakistani's brutal laws" to "All muslims are retards"? Seriously??
If blind generalisation is what you call "civilisation", call me "uncivilised".
Can we agree that if you have to use http://www.billionbibles.org/ in your arguments, you actually have nothing in your side and that you are wrong?
Just google sharia europe, you will get the point. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBpnNqViZDk
That video just takes things out of context.
Sure there are crazy muslims, but FYI there are also crazy christians, jews, atheist, everything.
The video tells quaran teacheas people to kill non mulsims. Guess what the bible and old testament say the same thing about what to do to non believers.
Calm the fuck down.
Hence my original comment, welcome back to the 13/1500s that got a bunch of people here upset.
But it's the truth.
If everyone is acting like its 13/1500s then nobody is.
On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote: What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly a not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
In fact, Afghanistan was very popular with hippies for a while.
But America supporting Islamist movements can't really be considered a mistake at the time. Islamism seemed too trivial to regard as anything serious, whilst its followers were willing to go and fight against communism, which was the big rival super power of the time.
The USSR started the mess, but Pakistan and its support of the Taliban is what made it into the hellhole that it is today.
On August 21 2012 05:12 Grumbels wrote: This seems overly sensationalist. Honestly though, I never get the obsession with the quran some Muslims have. Say one wrong word about something they hold sacred and you should be punished, instead of them just learning to stop feeling so overly sensitive. It's like with the cartoonist that was threatened for making cartoons about Mohammed. It's like, out of everything wrong with the world, why would the tipping point be someone making fun of Islam? Why not instead get upset about violence and poverty?
Its mostly because unlike the bible, islam claims the Quran was written directly by god himself! Unlike christian claims that it was inspired by god, and therefore more open to interpretation.
If you really believed something to be the word of god you might be a little fanatical about it too!
Whats bizarre for me is that its merely a question of semantics, which seem to be carefully used to make the worst decisions possible related to this subjects, some brainwashing is also in order and in the end it seems the Quran is used mostly as a control mechanism of Arabic society than anything else.
On August 21 2012 05:12 Grumbels wrote: This seems overly sensationalist. Honestly though, I never get the obsession with the quran some Muslims have. Say one wrong word about something they hold sacred and you should be punished, instead of them just learning to stop feeling so overly sensitive. It's like with the cartoonist that was threatened for making cartoons about Mohammed. It's like, out of everything wrong with the world, why would the tipping point be someone making fun of Islam? Why not instead get upset about violence and poverty?
Its mostly because unlike the bible, islam claims the Quran was written directly by god himself! Unlike christian claims that it was inspired by god, and therefore more open to interpretation.
If you really believed something to be the word of god you might be a little fanatical about it too!
Whats bizarre for me is that its merely a question of semantics, which seem to be carefully used to make the worst decisions possible related to this subjects, some brainwashing is also in order and in the end it seems the Quran is used mostly as a control mechanism of Arabic society than anything else.
All religion was originally made to control society, but some have modernized and use religion as a guideline instead of a absolute law.
On August 21 2012 05:04 reki- wrote: Please, like there aren't any places in the western world where a kid would burn a bible or something wouldn't be shunned by the community.
Total news value of this is "omg pakistan weird muslims" [edit] although i agree the public reaction is ridiculous to say the least but you have to understand that most of those people live and die by their religion and haven't had any eduction most likely other than from their religious leaders..
Shunned is completely different than facing the DEATH penalty.
On August 21 2012 04:56 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote: Three things: 1. She is a minor 2. She may have a mental condition 3. There is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that it was a Quran that she burned
Or how about the fact that all she did was burn a fucking book, regardless of content.
Honestly those three things shouldn't even matter. Burning a book shouldn't be grounds for criminal punishment no matter what it is. Just goes to show you what happens when you leave religious nut jobs in charge. If "god" is so offended, let him deal with it.
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
On August 21 2012 21:34 sVnteen wrote: you forgot one very important point: even if she burned a quran, it would still be totally stupid to kill her for that...
I know that muslims are more strict about that sort of stuff but helooooo....
Do you know that u can get jail time for burning a nation flag ? Some rulles are overkill but these kind of rulles are everywhere in the world. its crazy and stupid but dont worry they wont kill her : )
On August 21 2012 21:21 exterminatus wrote: Nuclear war between India and Pakshitstan would be victory for mankind. Better to have nuclear pollution instead of these "humans".
User was warned for this post
is it easy to dehumanize millions of people without giving any serious thought to the issues?
On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote: What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D:
They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part.
That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s.
On August 21 2012 21:21 exterminatus wrote: Nuclear war between India and Pakshitstan would be victory for mankind. Better to have nuclear pollution instead of these "humans".
User was warned for this post
thats just stupid there are good people in every country but it was surely said in anger about this injustice
besides that I find it funny that many people here are like" but she didnt know it was the quran" She shouldn't be harmed even if she wanted to burn this fantasy book
hopefully at some point in humanitys history religion is completely wiped out
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
On August 21 2012 19:04 Technique wrote: Welcome back to the 13-1500s.
Muslims need to get their asses in 2012 and act like civilized people.
There are Muslims in France, US, Africa, etc., and not all of them can be lumped up into an "uncivilized tribe" that you make them up to be. Stop being a bigot and generalizing.
I'm sorry, where in the world do people of any other religion exhibit such behaviour on a comparable scale?
So what if not all X's are Y's when all Y's are X's.
What a load of bs crap. Poor ID choice for you I guess. I am sure Muslims in more developed countries are also against this.
So, the authorities were initially unwilling to take action - what happened to change their minds? I'm assuming that a bunch of men heard about it and started to take action (go to Middle East move - RIIIIOT!)? While it's stupid that she got arrested, I do think that Pakistan could use this to take a progressive step forward by not pressing charges. We see kids arrested quite often in the news for dumb shit they do, they don't know any better...Time to be an adult, Pakistan.
The laughable thing is that burning the Quran is not really a sin or a sign of disrespect according to Islam. In Islam burning the holy text is the best way to get rid of it and it's the thing mostly used to destroy torn out or worn out texts while throwing it in the trash can be seen as something disrespectful. Unfortunately, this stupid and uninformed fanatism is not the only thing that's wrong in Pakistan. That place still has a lot to go through before becoming on par with developed countries and societies.
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
On August 21 2012 21:21 exterminatus wrote: Nuclear war between India and Pakshitstan would be victory for mankind. Better to have nuclear pollution instead of these "humans".
User was warned for this post
If you were born there i think you would fit in perfectly. There are idiots on both sides of the fence. Like you just proved.
This is a really sad story. It's wierd how these men seek to accuse this girl for something they're not sure of she've done. How can this stand any ground in front of a jury?
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
Extremist Buddhists aren't stoning people for blasphemy or flying planes into the buildings. Neither are extremist Christians, the extent to which they irritate me are "merely" their lobbying efforts on abortion and repression of sex in general.
These groups don't blow themselves up for virgins in Heaven or murder cartoonists. Islamist do.
Wilders, like Westergaard and the other Danish cartoonists, has been widely vilified for "seeking to inflame" the Muslim community. Even if this had been his intention, this criticism represents an almost supernatural coincidence of moral blindness and political imprudence. The point is not (and will never be) that some free person spoke, or wrote, or illustrated in such a manner as to inflame the Muslim community. The point is that only the Muslim community is combustible in this way. The controversy over Fitna, like all such controversies, renders one fact about our world especially salient: Muslims appear to be far more concerned about perceived slights to their religion than about the atrocities committed daily in its name. Our accommodation of this psychopathic skewing of priorities has, more and more, taken the form of craven and blinkered acquiescence.
There is an uncanny irony here that many have noticed. The position of the Muslim community in the face of all provocations seems to be: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we will kill you. Of course, the truth is often more nuanced, but this is about as nuanced as it ever gets: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we peaceful Muslims cannot be held responsible for what our less peaceful brothers and sisters do. When they burn your embassies or kidnap and slaughter your journalists, know that we will hold you primarily responsible and will spend the bulk of our energies criticizing you for "racism" and "Islamophobia."
On August 21 2012 21:21 exterminatus wrote: Nuclear war between India and Pakshitstan would be victory for mankind. Better to have nuclear pollution instead of these "humans".
User was warned for this post
If you were born there i think you would fit in perfectly. There are idiots on both sides of the fence. Like you just proved.
This is a really sad story. It's wierd how these men seek to accuse this girl for something they're not sure of she've done. How can this stand any ground in front of a jury?
Of course straight out A bombing them is nonsense, but doesnt this make us guilty as well because we do not really interveen ? Yeah we talk and blabla but we dont do anything and in my opinion, this makes us as the more enlightend western beeing as guilty as them.
Pakistan Is just what it has always been, a example of a pure Islamic state, let rage at this while we can, soon to come to the United Kingdom ( or Dhimmi Kingdom if you will)
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
Technically alcohol is a poison and a drug, just one thats become so ingrained in society that it's forgotten about and not looked at as such...
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
Technically alcohol is a poison and a drug, just one thats become so ingrained in society that it's forgotten about and not looked at as such...
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
Technically alcohol is a poison and a drug, just one thats become so ingrained in society that it's forgotten about and not looked at as such...
Kinda like something else....
You can also die from drinking to much water
I think you're missing the point. One is necessary for consumption daily.
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
Technically alcohol is a poison and a drug, just one thats become so ingrained in society that it's forgotten about and not looked at as such...
Kinda like something else....
You can also die from drinking to much water
I think you're missing the point. One is necessary for consumption daily.
Well, there was this old dude in France who swore by his glass of red wine a day for living to over the age of 100. A friend of mine's grandfather received a letter from Queen Elizabeth for being one of the oldest men in Canada, also over 100. He drinks a glass of Vodka every morning for breakfast. Now that we're over this derailment conversation, which is taking away from the discussion, let's get back to talking about this Sharia law being a little, no let's say extremely overboard with their misinterpretations of "God's will" and how it's a bane on humanity.
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
Could you name me the attacks caused by Christians / Jews / Buddists and others the last week? Motivated by their religion.
Islamic Terrorism is daily reality. From Moscow New York Madrid and Mumbai to Kingshaha. Islam is a religion always spread by the sword. Comparing it to Christianity and other religions is laughable. I can mock jesus in the middle of Rome, while I cannot even enter Mecca as an infidel.
2012.08.19 (Abyan, Yemen) - An al-Qaeda suicide bomber takes out three souls. 2012.08.19 (Lashkar Gah, Afghanistan) - Islamic bombers kill three people at a cemetery. 2012.08.19 (Malgobek, Ingushetia) - A Fedayeen suicide bomber enters a funeral and slaughters at least seven mourners. 2012.08.18 (Mosul, Iraq) - Muslim terrorists kill six family members in their homes. 2012.08.18 (Michni, Pakistan) - Four young men are brutally gunned down by radical Sunnis. 2012.08.18 (Herat, Afghanistan) - Fundamentalist bombers murder four people at a crowded market.
On August 21 2012 07:12 Skilledblob wrote: gotta love these "muslims are stupid" and "religion is evil" circlejerks
Religion is the only reason these kinds of things happen. In secular states, like all of Europe and the USA, you would never get a death-penalty for burning a book. Religion is evil.
You basically have an issue with Islam and Sharia Law which heavily influences the goverment of Islamic nations. Its pretty stupid to bash on all religion.
No all of religion does nothing but create problems
I'm not religious myself, but that's just plain wrong and ignorant. Extremists in every religions cause problems, but that's like saying drinking a glass of wine is wrong because getting shit-faced is wrong.
Extremist Buddhists aren't stoning people for blasphemy or flying planes into the buildings. Neither are extremist Christians, the extent to which they irritate me are "merely" their lobbying efforts on abortion and repression of sex in general.
These groups don't blow themselves up for virgins in Heaven or murder cartoonists. Islamist do.
Wilders, like Westergaard and the other Danish cartoonists, has been widely vilified for "seeking to inflame" the Muslim community. Even if this had been his intention, this criticism represents an almost supernatural coincidence of moral blindness and political imprudence. The point is not (and will never be) that some free person spoke, or wrote, or illustrated in such a manner as to inflame the Muslim community. The point is that only the Muslim community is combustible in this way. The controversy over Fitna, like all such controversies, renders one fact about our world especially salient: Muslims appear to be far more concerned about perceived slights to their religion than about the atrocities committed daily in its name. Our accommodation of this psychopathic skewing of priorities has, more and more, taken the form of craven and blinkered acquiescence.
There is an uncanny irony here that many have noticed. The position of the Muslim community in the face of all provocations seems to be: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we will kill you. Of course, the truth is often more nuanced, but this is about as nuanced as it ever gets: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we peaceful Muslims cannot be held responsible for what our less peaceful brothers and sisters do. When they burn your embassies or kidnap and slaughter your journalists, know that we will hold you primarily responsible and will spend the bulk of our energies criticizing you for "racism" and "Islamophobia."
To be fair, unlike Christianity, Islam didn't get the luxury of being dragged into the modern world while kicking, screaming and accusing everyone of heresy every step of the way.
The fact that there are no evidence itself should be enough to stop charges. If it wasn't a third world country. However, I wonder how international rights organisation will respond to this, or have they already?
On August 22 2012 04:54 RogerX wrote: The fact that there are no evidence itself should be enough to stop charges. If it wasn't a third world country. However, I wonder how international rights organisation will respond to this, or have they already?
I wonder what power any human rights organization has to actually do anything about it. Sure, they can make a big stink about things but the inherent flaw with their beliefs is that they believe countries have the right to sovereignty and freedom of religion. Also, I doubt they're willing to forcefully exert their beliefs in the same way extremist Muslims are. This is something of a case of pen vs sword. Back in World War 2 it took tremendous atrocities to drive good men and women into action against what are today regarded as evil regimes (expansionist extremist fascists). Somewhere along the line human rights organizations will have to realize that their enemy doesn't give a fuck about human rights.
On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote: What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D:
They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part.
That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s.
If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are in fact relatively progressive. It's the people of SA who tend to be Islamist. Therefore, our support of SA actually works against fundamental Islam by keeping a secular king in power.
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
These areas of the world are drastically behind in civility, but that is how they conduct things. A heavily religious society sees little err in decisions like these, hopefully they will go on evidence though.
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
This is a little more than a case of crazy people doing crazy shit. When a law like this (blasphemy = death) even exists in the 21st century it tells you that Pakistan's ruling elite support this law. You could say the leaders of Pakistan are crazy, but then what of the people themselves... Are they also crazy? Was this government not democratically elected? Does burning a Christian Bible or Jewish Torah or a cross in Pakistan warrant a death penalty? Is this girl not being singled out for being Christian? Are non-Muslims even safe in Pakistan anymore?
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote: What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D:
They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part.
That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s.
If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are in fact relatively progressive. It's the people of SA who tend to be Islamist. Therefore, our support of SA actually works against fundamental Islam by keeping a secular king in power.
Where the heck did you hear that? I am honestly intrigued. It is one of the most astonishing things I've heard in weeks
Bro, Saud is the most Islamist king out there. The most extreme form of Sharia, yes much worse than in Iran, is the law of the land. Wahhabism is the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, and it is the most conservative and radical. It's not simply that the people are Islamist. The government mandates it. It is the law and the king is in full support of it and would not have anything else. A secular king would have huge issues with a country being the most religiously fundamentalist country in the world at that, so that wouldn't make sense at all either. Also, if he were secular and the people were as Islamist as they are, there'd be revolts haha. You know how fundies in that part of the world get.
On August 21 2012 05:02 Enzymatic wrote: What more are you going to expect from a third world country?
a third world country with nuclear weapons...
if they had nukes they would be halfway to Isreal by now, as soon as they do complete a nuke they will do just this as they have said.
-------- On topic: Pretty pathetic, much of the Middle East really looks like some of the worst places to be
It apparently wasn't always like that. Iran once had a democracy that the CIA overthrew. Even though we put in a dictator, the society was extremely secular and religious conservatism largely absent. Iraq used to be a pretty strongly developing country, but we killed it with 12 years of sanctions and the Iraq War. I've met people from there. Things were a lot better in all aspects of life. On top of that, Islamism has grown significantly (especially considering the primary party in the ruling coalition was an Islamic extremist/terror group). Quite surprising considering this is the same country that opposed Islamic extremism more than any non-Muslim country did before 9/11.
Hezbollah is rising in Lebanon. Libya is now ruled by Islamists. Egypt's government is taken by the Muslim Brotherhood, although the military still holds power in the country. Of course the Gulf Arabs are all crazy Islamists for the most part. Pakistan is religiously fanatical as well. Syria is currently in revolution with Islamists leading the revolt iirc.
Yeah at this point, the only reasonable countries in the whole Mideast/N. Africa are Turkey, Lebanon (unless hezbollah takes over), Tunisia, and Israel, although Israel seems kind of aggressive as of late.
On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote: What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D:
They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part.
That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s.
If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are in fact relatively progressive. It's the people of SA who tend to be Islamist. Therefore, our support of SA actually works against fundamental Islam by keeping a secular king in power.
Where the heck did you hear that? I am honestly intrigued. It is one of the most astonishing things I've heard in weeks
Bro, Saud is the most Islamist king out there. The most extreme form of Sharia, yes much worse than in Iran, is the law of the land. Wahhabism is the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, and it is the most radical. It's not simply that the people are Islamist. The government mandates it... A secular king would have huge issues with a country being the most religiously fundamentalist country in the world at that, so that wouldn't make sense at all either.
The operative word there was "relatively". I'm not particularly familiar with SA, but is it not true that the population is mostly extremely conservative Muslims? From what I've read of King Abdullah, he also seems to be relatively liberal: he's cracked down on terrorists as harshly as only a dictator can, he's made judicial reforms to weaken Islamist influence, he replaced the head of the religious police with a more moderate cleric, and allowed women to compete in the Olympics for the first time.
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
Though there may be some that do, the bad people in religion don't just join and take the cover or excuse of religion. They really do believe in some of the nasty, evil stuff written in those books. And best of all they are convinced that they have an omnipotent, omniscient being on their side. Yes, your experiences with religion may give you the picture you described, but if you read the texts you'll see religion is our primitive attempt at making sense of the world, as well as an attempt to use this primitive sense to dominate the minds of others. It's not just some desert dude trying to preach hippiedom and love for all mankind. It's filled with fear mongering and hate as well. It really comes down to whether you'd like to accept all of the religion or only some of it.
On August 21 2012 21:21 Shiragaku wrote: What is rather sad is that the US does little to calm down Islamic fundamentalism. I mean, take a look at our greatest ally, Saudi Arabia.
And there has been a major rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan after the invasion. And we helped start it in the Cold War but it has gotten much worse after we invaded the nation. I personally blame the Soviets more than anything for invading Afghanistan in the first place and Afghanistan was surprisingly not a country near failing, it was a common vacation resort for people that want to go out of country but cannot afford a place like Japan or America but we helped, although no directly, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
Plus, although Ali Bhutto was no angel, we helped overthrow him and installed an Islamic scumbag.
Edited grammar errors. Sorry zalz D:
They went in at the behest of the Afghani government to crush Islamofascist fanatics. I blame the US and Saudis for supporting terrorism and Islamic extremism against a secular, forward-minded Afghani government because the US govt. apparently preferred the spread of Islamic extremism instead of Soviet influence in a place in which it already existed coupled with a poor country moving forward. Look where that got us with Taliban, 9/11, etc... It was a stupid move on our part.
That said, why do we support Saudi Arabia so much? Sure, the ruler of Mecca is a faithful bitch to Uncle Sam (funny how that works out), but they are among the most radicalized and fundamentalist people in the world. I guess our interests mean more than promoting secularism and forward-progress in an increasingly backward region. To be frank, our actions and policies are no different from what any power past or present has done, but it isn't making the situation better in the Mideast... a lot worse if anything and this goes as far back as the 50s.
If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are in fact relatively progressive. It's the people of SA who tend to be Islamist. Therefore, our support of SA actually works against fundamental Islam by keeping a secular king in power.
Where the heck did you hear that? I am honestly intrigued. It is one of the most astonishing things I've heard in weeks
Bro, Saud is the most Islamist king out there. The most extreme form of Sharia, yes much worse than in Iran, is the law of the land. Wahhabism is the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, and it is the most radical. It's not simply that the people are Islamist. The government mandates it... A secular king would have huge issues with a country being the most religiously fundamentalist country in the world at that, so that wouldn't make sense at all either.
The operative word there was "relatively". I'm not particularly familiar with SA, but is it not true that the population is mostly extremely conservative Muslims? From what I've read of King Abdullah, he also seems to be relatively liberal: he's cracked down on terrorists as harshly as only a dictator can, he's made judicial reforms to weaken Islamist influence, he replaced the head of the religious police with a more moderate cleric, and allowed women to compete in the Olympics for the first time.
Correct. You won't find more conservative Muslims. Wahhabism is the most conservative form of Islam, a very radical version of Sunnism. In large part, the society is like that due to govt. laws and related things, just like in Iran. And if you know Iranian history, they were probably more secular than many Christian countries before Khomeini came back. Quite a contrast to the last 30 years.
No government likes insurrection and terrorism in their country, even if they are both religious fanatics. A couple minor things that the rest of the world takes for granted is hardly liberal. In fact, he may have been appeasing someone/something. Actually, Saudi Arabia is under a lot of pressure for changing its ... relatively archaic society, especially since it is a huge oil power and everyone has their eyes on them.
The fact that a lot more has not been done surprises me. If the Iraqis turned a semi-Islamist monarchial state into a full-fledged secular nation back in the 50s with little effort (although many of the Shiites would become radicalized by Khomeini, sadly), I'm sure a king with absolute power with the blessings of the United States of America and supposedly by the Muslim god as well would do everything in his power to reform society if he was actually secular, rather than a couple infinitesimal changes because the whole international community is being anal about how absolutely frightening Saudi society is. I wish really wish we would pressure them more, but our primary interest is in their oil and in their fealty. It's the way politics works..
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
I've encountered otherwise good people who are staunchly opposed to gays, abortion, separation of church and state, and the teaching of evolution, all due to their religion. And they're insistent on brainwashing their children with the same nonsense.
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
I think most religions are very concerned with telling people what to do. All religions also seem to have things that are sacred and things that are taboo. I also think religions need to be resistant to change if they want credibility, you can't change shit on a whim. This combination makes religion almost inherently problematic. It drives many of its followers to infringe on the freedoms of non-believers. Even in the most enlightened societies of today, large mainstream religious groups still push political agendas that are partly or wholly based on scripture. In this sense, I think religion is definitely the problem.
People's personal beliefs do not concern me. But religious beliefs are very rarely personal.
You guys know how we make fun of the T rex now on the internet for having tiny little arms, unable to accomplish simple tasks? Well when we're in the dinosaurs place and some even more awesome species of carbon based life form is digging up our old shit, they are going to have a god damn laugh or two at shit like this.
turning into another "religion is evil" thread. Couple of points I like to add. I believe Pakistan has nuclear weapons. The strict blasphemy laws are quite recent. There has been a rise in religious violence in Pakistan, assassinations on Christian politicians who opposed the law that is being used in this case.
Of course i find it terrible to kill/life sentence a mentally disabled girl for something as harmless as burning or ripping out pages from a Koran. But if a democratic country choses to accept and enforce blasphemy laws there have to be some gray area cases to sort out the kinks in legal precedents etc. I think we should wait to bring out the pitchforks and torches until they have dealt with the issue.
On August 22 2012 05:20 GNS wrote: once again religion causes problems ...
I'm an atheist but I dislike when people point the finger at religion for shit like this. Religion can be and is good for society in some ways but is often warped to perpetrate evil. Look at a Mass murderer like Hitler. Hilter wasn't a religious man yet he is responsible for the death of millions. If Hilter said that he killed 6 million Jews for GOD or Jesus, people would blame religion when in fact Hitler was just a lunatic. There are plenty of peaceful religious people who wouldnt hurt a soul. There are also plenty of non-religious people who are murderers etc. When shit like what's in the OP happens, it's more due to social/economic reasons. I am not saying religion has no impact but you shouldnt make it seem as if religion is the main cause. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy shit.
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Care to elaborate? From my experience with religion (I became an atheist around 18, am 22 now) the message that is sent is a peacful one that teaches you to love and do good. It just happens that bigots/racists/and murderers join religion and hide behind it to defend their actions. I never encountered a rational religious person that told me it was ok to discriminate against gays, kill people that belong to other religious groups, steal or what ever it may be. So The last sentence of that quote should read, "for good people to do evil things, they must be taught and converted by evil people." Once again, religion is not the problem.
Pfft, people would not be anti-homosexuality but for religion. People would not murder little girls for burning the Koran if not for religion. There are countless examples of people who would not otherwise be against something but for what religion teaches them.
EPT
i guess you don't know about modern press either
