Firstly, I'm pretty sick of this coming up, but so many people (notably many 'westerners') appear to be under this false belief that freedom of speech is absolute. IT IS NOT and never has been. There are numerous examples of speech being restricted to protect certain ideals. Please educate yourselves instead of spamming this stupid fall-back argument whenever someone is berated for use of particular language.
Secondly, I couldn't care less about Destiny personally; I don't watch his stream or follow his exploits or have any interest in his play. But I can certainly say that I'm glad that people are beginning, more and more, to have to take responsibility for their actions on the internet. I have always hated people using the general annonymity inherently available on the internet as an excuse to be an absolute asshat without any accountability.
Next, I don't understand the argument that telling sponsors about this sort of nonsense affects the entire team... More likely the sponsors will say "get rid of player X if you want our dollars" and team Y axes player X. The rest of team Y's roster goes on with their business. Why? The sponsors want our market. Otherwise they wouldn't be here in the first place. There are plenty of replacement players that can be used to fill the gap of asshat player X.
Finally, I appreciate the manner in which Destiny has decided to separate himself from Qauntic. He's clearly not an unintelligent guy... But ultimately this just baffles me further when it comes to his views about how he expresses himself.
On May 04 2012 17:24 Alkajak wrote: I see that you've removed all the incriminating links of the TL mods breaking their own rules.
Which of our own rules did TL mods break? Is there a rule on this site that states that you cannot use the word "retarded?"
I know some people whom are mentally retarded. How many years until society finally decides that insulting peoples' medical conditions is no lighter than insulting their race or sexual orientation? Why are you arbitrarily deciding that medical conditions are acceptable?
There have been lengthy discussions internally on whether we moderate against language, and the response each time has come that the majority say no. A user can say retarded, shit, fag, raped etc. given it is in a context which isn't designed to cause offense to the particular group. Of course, we discourage the usage of such language and will warn/moderate against people who use it excessively, but we are perfectly okay with one offs.
I see. I'm assuming much of this hubbub is over different things then (haven't followed at all and it's not made clear what TL the site's beef with this thing was). I just took issue with a mod blatantly saying that it was different than calling someone a gook, is all. Thanks for the clarification
Destiny over stepped the mark when addressing our staff. And in particular, that staff member originally was offering friendly advice until destiny essentially spat in his face about it. Because of his status in the community, it wasn't an immediate perm rather a quick discussion inside of staff about what ban should be handed out (decided on 30days, obviously). Whether his stream is featured or not is still under discussion.
On May 04 2012 17:45 Brett wrote: Firstly, I'm pretty sick of this coming up, but so many people (notably many 'westerners') appear to be under this false belief that freedom of speech is absolute. IT IS NOT and never has been. There are numerous examples of speech being restricted to protect certain ideals. Please educate yourselves instead of spamming this stupid fall-back argument whenever someone is berated for use of particular language.
Secondly, I couldn't care less about Destiny personally; I don't watch his stream or follow his exploits or have any interest in his play. But I can certainly say that I'm glad that people are beginning, more and more, to have to take responsibility for their actions on the internet. I have always hated people using the general annonymity inherently available on the internet as an excuse to be an absolute asshat without any accountability.
Next, I don't understand the argument that telling sponsors about this sort of nonsense affects the entire team... More likely the sponsors will say "get rid of player X if you want our dollars" and team Y axes player X. The rest of team Y's roster goes on with their business. Why? The sponsors want our market. Otherwise they wouldn't be here in the first place. There are plenty of replacement players that can be used to fill the gap of asshat player X.
Finally, I appreciate the manner in which Destiny has decided to separate himself from Qauntic. He's clearly not an unintelligent guy... But ultimately this just baffles me further when it comes to his views about how he expresses himself.
Also, for Americans, nowhere in the constitution does it protect individuals from retribution for using controversial language. Employers typically have a right to fire employees who use such language.
On May 04 2012 17:36 SedativeDev wrote: This community (SC2) is getting more and more purist. It's ridiculous.
No Sir. It's actually becoming more professional by getting rid of the immature people who don't seem to have self control nor respect for the viewers.
By professional you mean if you slip up and say something that could be considered offensive by some people then your going to have an angry mob on ur ass?
On May 04 2012 17:34 FairForever wrote: I'm pretty sure most of us have not used racist language, even if some of us are bad mannered on BNet.
It's completely unacceptable. And it's also criminal in some areas. John Terry the soccer player was recently charged with a criminal offense for the same reason. There's a reason why it's criminal, it's hurtful and demeaning to others.
-----Why dont you sum up 50 more people that recently got charged with criminal offenses ?
Ow yea i forgot this is totaly NOT related to Destiny what so ever.
It's related to the fact that racist language isn't acceptable anywhere. The outrage online mirrors the outrage that would be shown in the real world.
Leaving out the Destiny part, the fact that you seem to be okay with actual speech being outright criminalized is chilling, to say the least. You can make a case for professional obligations, etc applying in the private/business world, but the government has no business determining what speech is "permissible" or "has value".
The proper answer for speech you dislike is NOT silencing it. It is for you to respond with speech of your own.
I don't even know how to respond to this. Racist language is illegal in many parts of the world. I'm just stating a fact.
You can take your outdated views that racist language and hate speech is okay and go elsewhere.
So you get to decide what speech is okay to speak. Instead of, you know, actual free speech that the western world supposedly values, and where you get to judge what speech to listen to of each person's own free will.
On May 04 2012 17:32 TiDragOnflY wrote: Hello everyone my name is david and i am from the netherlands. I would like to give my opinion about this matter because i am confused about the behaviour of several people in this community. I honestly believe that most people in this community are intelligent, social and understanding human beings. That being said, I fail to understand why people that dont even care about the whole rasicm matter are still die-hard trying to get Destiny removed from TL+his team and make him loose his income just because you dont get enough attention or just hate Destiny as a person. My question for you all is how many times have you said that to someone? online or in real life. i sure know i have called alot of people a lot of names.Does that make me 'cool' or a good/better person of course not but almost everbody does it and the point i am trying to make here is this ''He without sins trow the first rock'. If you see your friend saying faggot to somebody would you go and call their boss? to get them fired for racism? I doubt you would. And if you say well Destiny is not a friend of mine then my question for you is: Dont you believe all humans are equal? Treat everyone the way you would like them to Treat you? So guys in general if you do not like something then for the love of starcraft please do not watch it or comment on it. I mean why even bother if you dont like the player/caster just mute/ignore/avoid them. you dont have to listen to someone. and also you know who Destiny is by now and you know how he talks/typs and please dont say well maybe these people have not yet seen what Destiny is all about because I fail to believe such a thing. I cannot comprehend that so many people that watched Destiny for the first time would comment on this. Anyways this is something i wanted to get off my chest for a long time and i would like to thank everyone that took the time reading this.
Kind regards, `David`
Hello, David. You bring up very good points. This happens to be a problem with the internet in general. Most people complaining would never dare say anything in real life. The internet gives people a sense of power that they love to abuse, whether through trolling, complaining to sponsors, feigning outrage, or whatever. I agree that not everything needs to be confronted or talked about. If people were sane and smart enough to just ignore things they did not like (I'm talking about inconsequential stuff, not the freaking holocaust), the world would be a utopia. T__T
To be fair you can reverse this argument pretty easily as people like 90lbs soaking wet Destiny would never dare to say "nigger" with black people in front of him or "gook" to asian people in front of him in real life. Works both ways.
On May 04 2012 17:36 SedativeDev wrote: This community (SC2) is getting more and more purist. It's ridiculous.
No Sir. It's actually becoming more professional by getting rid of the immature people who don't seem to have self control nor respect for the viewers.
By professional you mean if you slip up and say something that could be considered offensive by some people then your going to have an angry mob on ur ass?
People keep using this excuse. Destiny's original remarks were ugly, but it's the fact he refused to apologize, and instead worsened the situation significantly, that caused more of an uproar in my opinion.
I cant tell if people people have a low tolerance to anything, ignorance or just purely hate destiny.
Racism will always exist thats is a fact, it is more tolerable and can be used in a manner of joking and bm w/o the actual hate in our society and its the internet if seeing a few words you dislike offend you and it affects you so much you need help.
It really makes me sad. As I said, I've worked hard for esports. I was one of the first officers of Tespa. I worked in the weeks leading to the first two tournaments so hard that I nearly flunked out of school. I worked during these tournaments so hard that I was sick for a week afterwards. I ran between buildings, dealt with players, and otherwise exhausted myself to the point my immune system shut down. I then parted with Tespa because I suffer from clinical depression and was in such a bad place I nearly left school. More than that, I nearly took my own life. I wasn't any good to the organization. I came back later and helped with the lone star clash. I again worked so hard I was sick the following week. I love Esports. I wanted it to succeed. After seeing people supporting the use of racial slurs, and particularly offensive to me, the word "faggot," I'm not so sure anymore. This community hates so many people that I love. I'm not sure I want them to be acceptable. That means their hatred becomes acceptable. NB: I am no longer connected to Tespa, these are my personal opinons and do not reflect the opinions of tespa.
I want to expand upon this. I really do care for Esports. It's given me a lot of joy. Sadly, its myopic acceptance of hate speech is unacceptable to me. I've grew up in around a lot of gay people. Neighbors, my best friends parents, teachers. These are people that have made my life better.
As I said above, I suffer from depression. Its sever, I'm barely functional at times. I struggle every single day, and when someone sullies something I love (esports) by insulting, belittling, and dehumanizing the people who have made my life tolerable it infuriates me. More than that, it drains my passion. I've pretty much stopped caring. I'm embarrassed to be associated with esports at this point. Leading up to the lone star clash I had a friend, who knows nothing about starcraft, ask me about the misogynist my organization was flying to campus.
That shit hurts.
That shit actually is killing esports.
It's kind of hard to respond to something like this, but you still have to look at the context in which people are using these words. I mean people should refrain from using them no doubt, but if I say something like "that stuff is so gay" it really isn't my intention to belittle gay people. I'm pretty sure this applies to Destiny too, he's just to stubborn to admit it and try to be more sensitive to other people's feelings(as in obviously not the person he's bming, but the minorities in the community).
On May 04 2012 17:24 Alkajak wrote: I see that you've removed all the incriminating links of the TL mods breaking their own rules.
Which of our own rules did TL mods break? Is there a rule on this site that states that you cannot use the word "retarded?"
I know some people whom are mentally retarded. How many years until society finally decides that insulting peoples' medical conditions is no lighter than insulting their race or sexual orientation? Why are you arbitrarily deciding that medical conditions are acceptable?
There have been lengthy discussions internally on whether we moderate against language, and the response each time has come that the majority say no. A user can say retarded, shit, fag, raped etc. given it is in a context which isn't designed to cause offense to the particular group. Of course, we discourage the usage of such language and will warn/moderate against people who use it excessively, but we are perfectly okay with one offs.
I see. I'm assuming much of this hubbub is over different things then (haven't followed at all and it's not made clear what TL the site's beef with this thing was). I just took issue with a mod blatantly saying that it was different than calling someone a gook, is all. Thanks for the clarification
Destiny over stepped the mark when addressing our staff. And in particular, that staff member originally was offering friendly advice until destiny essentially spat in his face about it. Because of his status in the community, it wasn't an immediate perm rather a quick discussion inside of staff about what ban should be handed out (decided on 30days, obviously). Whether his stream is featured or not is still under discussion.
I don't see how you can possibly unfeature him while claiming to not hold some kind of grudge or bias
On May 04 2012 17:41 FairForever wrote: Show me a caucasian comedian that uses the n-word on television and I'll show you a comedian without a job.
Personally I think it's unacceptable for African Americans to use that language too but apparently it's not a big deal.
Obligatory
This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood.
I am sorry but didnt you say ANY RACIAL LANGUAGE IS NOT ACCEPTED? and dont you feel anyone using the word Nigger is a Criminal? Because if you are going to say he was only joking with it and Destiny uses the words in a different context im going to rest my case and be happy.
Glad to see this decision made. I'd say maybe this will teach Destiny to grow up, but just looking at the quoted text from the OP, it's clear that it won't. The kind of behavior he exemplifies is that of an angry 12 year old playing Call of Duty. When things like this happen, he just plays the "I don't expect your sympathy" card and shrugs it off like it's not an issue.
It's nice to see more and more incidents like this occurring, because it means the community is taking steps towards professionalism, and recognizing what is acceptable and not acceptable if SC2 is to be taken seriously going forward.
On May 04 2012 17:36 SedativeDev wrote: This community (SC2) is getting more and more purist. It's ridiculous.
No Sir. It's actually becoming more professional by getting rid of the immature people who don't seem to have self control nor respect for the viewers.
By professional you mean if you slip up and say something that could be considered offensive by some people then your going to have an angry mob on ur ass?
Yeah, cause this was definitely just a slip-up by Destiny. He's definitely never said similar things before, and of course he apologized immediately after realizing his accident. Right?
On May 04 2012 17:32 TiDragOnflY wrote: Hello everyone my name is david and i am from the netherlands. I would like to give my opinion about this matter because i am confused about the behaviour of several people in this community. I honestly believe that most people in this community are intelligent, social and understanding human beings. That being said, I fail to understand why people that dont even care about the whole rasicm matter are still die-hard trying to get Destiny removed from TL+his team and make him loose his income just because you dont get enough attention or just hate Destiny as a person. My question for you all is how many times have you said that to someone? online or in real life. i sure know i have called alot of people a lot of names.Does that make me 'cool' or a good/better person of course not but almost everbody does it and the point i am trying to make here is this ''He without sins trow the first rock'. If you see your friend saying faggot to somebody would you go and call their boss? to get them fired for racism? I doubt you would. And if you say well Destiny is not a friend of mine then my question for you is: Dont you believe all humans are equal? Treat everyone the way you would like them to Treat you? So guys in general if you do not like something then for the love of starcraft please do not watch it or comment on it. I mean why even bother if you dont like the player/caster just mute/ignore/avoid them. you dont have to listen to someone. and also you know who Destiny is by now and you know how he talks/typs and please dont say well maybe these people have not yet seen what Destiny is all about because I fail to believe such a thing. I cannot comprehend that so many people that watched Destiny for the first time would comment on this. Anyways this is something i wanted to get off my chest for a long time and i would like to thank everyone that took the time reading this.
Kind regards, `David`
I'm pretty sure most of us have not used racist language, even if some of us are bad mannered on BNet.
It's completely unacceptable. And it's also criminal in some areas. John Terry the soccer player was recently charged with a criminal offense for the same reason. There's a reason why it's criminal, it's hurtful and demeaning to others.
the point is it doesn't HAVE to be offensive.
for fucks sake the word "guy" used to be an offensive word. are you offended now when someone calls you a guy? no, because everyone got off their shitty high horse and realized words are just words.
if a person genuinely becomes hurt, offended, demeaned, and insulted by a word someone says, then that person needs to get a grip or deal with their insecurities. the world should not have to silence itself to pamper overly sensitive people.
Hey internet tough guy, just because you like subjecting yourself to grotesque internet gutters doesn't mean the rest of the world needs to be exposed to it to be "desensitized".
Your reasoning is absolutely garbage, you could say we should be less offended over child pornography and that people need to get a grip and just "deal with it"
This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood.
and that's the point.
there are plenty of people that use the word nigger without being racist. but then you get people like the ones who wrote to razer suddenly come and shit all over everyone trying to bring race back into things.
On May 04 2012 17:24 Alkajak wrote: I see that you've removed all the incriminating links of the TL mods breaking their own rules.
Which of our own rules did TL mods break? Is there a rule on this site that states that you cannot use the word "retarded?"
I know some people whom are mentally retarded. How many years until society finally decides that insulting peoples' medical conditions is no lighter than insulting their race or sexual orientation? Why are you arbitrarily deciding that medical conditions are acceptable?
There have been lengthy discussions internally on whether we moderate against language, and the response each time has come that the majority say no. A user can say retarded, shit, raped etc. given it is in a context which isn't designed to cause offense to the particular group. Of course, we discourage the usage of such language and will warn/moderate against people who use it excessively, but we are perfectly okay with one offs.
Instead of deciding for yourself, why don't you put some system in place that will allow YOUR community to judge if a mod is doing good work or not. Even if you don't want us to have the power to remove them from duty (obviously you have no sponsors we can harass), you can at least use it as a metric.
I find it strange that a mod can post without their status marked in discussion and then use their mod powers to rule. They shouldn't be able to be judge and judged, without some king a PUBLIC feedback about their behavior.
On May 04 2012 17:45 Brett wrote: Firstly, I'm pretty sick of this coming up, but so many people (notably many 'westerners') appear to be under this false belief that freedom of speech is absolute. IT IS NOT and never has been. There are numerous examples of speech being restricted to protect certain ideals. Please educate yourselves instead of spamming this stupid fall-back argument whenever someone is berated for use of particular language.
Secondly, I couldn't care less about Destiny personally; I don't watch his stream or follow his exploits or have any interest in his play. But I can certainly say that I'm glad that people are beginning, more and more, to have to take responsibility for their actions on the internet. I have always hated people using the general annonymity inherently available on the internet as an excuse to be an absolute asshat without any accountability.
Next, I don't understand the argument that telling sponsors about this sort of nonsense affects the entire team... More likely the sponsors will say "get rid of player X if you want our dollars" and team Y axes player X. The rest of team Y's roster goes on with their business. Why? The sponsors want our market. Otherwise they wouldn't be here in the first place. There are plenty of replacement players that can be used to fill the gap of asshat player X.
Finally, I appreciate the manner in which Destiny has decided to separate himself from Qauntic. He's clearly not an unintelligent guy... But ultimately this just baffles me further when it comes to his views about how he expresses himself.
Also, for Americans, nowhere in the constitution does it protect individuals from retribution for using controversial language. Employers typically have a right to fire employees who use such language.
Why are we talking about that? If anyone is trying to defend Destiny with freedom of speech, ignore them. Destiny isn't going to jail, so why are people bringing this up and why do people respond?
Not including MLG. Which tournaments does Destiny even play?
Also, since TL has me unlisted for 30 days, I will shamelessly plug my stream: http://www.own3d.tv/Destiny <3
If I understand this correctly I think he's only hurting himself by doing this? TeamLiquid does provide alot of viewers. What's in it for him to plug the stream from TL?
EPT
