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On May 15 2012 17:35 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 12:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me. so show me some replays, I'm open to learning the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP Match-up isn't broken. Metagame favors Protoss. Or I guess TvP was broken too when it was all terrans in the ro8 for however many seasons crushing the 1 or 2 protoss that even got in several seasons ago.
First, how is the period of terran beating protoss (mostly with 1-1-1 by the way, not the overall matchup) relevant at all to this current discussion? Even if a race were to be ridiculously overpowered for 12 months, and then suddenly in one month it becomes ridiculously underpowered doesn't make it "okay" - it is just as egregious for a person who wants to see a fair game. The argument "well terran won a lot in the past so it is their turn to lose" holds NO weight with me. If you wanted a fair chance back when terran was winning you should want a fair chance now. The fact that the matchup is terrible to play and terrible to watch makes it even more in need of SOMETHING.
And back when every protoss was dying to 1-1-1 everyone SCREAMED and WHINED to blizzard until they came and held the protoss players' hands and changed the game from them. Over and over blizzard has changed the game based on community whining, the precedent has been set. It is in a terran's player best interest to whine and cry about the matchup - the matchup which for all intents and purposes is utterly broken and unplayable for the average player.
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On May 15 2012 18:48 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 17:35 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 15 2012 12:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me. so show me some replays, I'm open to learning the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP Match-up isn't broken. Metagame favors Protoss. Or I guess TvP was broken too when it was all terrans in the ro8 for however many seasons crushing the 1 or 2 protoss that even got in several seasons ago. First, how is the period of terran beating protoss (mostly with 1-1-1 by the way, not the overall matchup) relevant at all to this current discussion? Even if a race were to be ridiculously overpowered for 12 months, and then suddenly in one month it becomes ridiculously underpowered doesn't make it "okay" - it is just as egregious for a person who wants to see a fair game. The argument "well terran won a lot in the past so it is their turn to lose" holds NO weight with me. If you wanted a fair chance back when terran was winning you should want a fair chance now. The fact that the matchup is terrible to play and terrible to watch makes it even more in need of SOMETHING. And back when every protoss was dying to 1-1-1 everyone SCREAMED and WHINED to blizzard until they came and held the protoss players' hands and changed the game from them. Over and over blizzard has changed the game based on community whining, the precedent has been set. It is in a terran's player best interest to whine and cry about the matchup - the matchup which for all intents and purposes is utterly broken and unplayable for the average player.
This actually lasted MUCH longer than the few month period of marine/tank/banshee all-ins being standard. Basically from the beginning of GSL, through the fall of 2011, TvP was pretty one-sided. There was a few month window in spring of 2011 where P had some innovation (phoenix+colossus in GSTL, etc) and pushed back for a while PvT/PvZ, but right on through the summer/fall was when the horrible PvZ winrates began and the marine/tank/banshee all-in fest started. The only protoss who managed to do well throughout all of that in Korea was MC.
You literally shoved a quote in my mouth too. I never said it's Terran's turn to lose, nor am I attempting to spite Terrans cause of their winrates last year. I'm literally drawing a comparison where everyone points to the current metagame, a 4-5 month period, and cries that the entire game is imbalanced based upon it. It's happened before too. The buffs protoss supposedly got to combat marine/tank/banshee don't really help all that much, and it fell out of favor on it's own. I was also saying back then that all Protoss were whining over a metagame, and asking Blizzard to innovate FOR them; just as Terrans on TL are doing now.
Match-up isn't broken. It's just easy to queue on the ladder and lose to a Protoss then whine on TL.
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A lot of really high level terrans has stated that the matchup is completely broken. I heard DeMuslim say it several times last week when he was streaming.
How does that give any hope for casual lower level terrans?
Two things: Warp tech and forcefields.
This is what makes protoss so stupid.
Warp tech in conjunction with forcefields makes protoss have a ridiculous defenders advantage.
A superior force can be stalled for a very long time while reinforcements are warped in.
Also the ability to warp in to defend drops contributes to this.
Defenders advantage is good, but at the same time they also weaken the opponents defenders advantage a lot.
Zergs can get their ramp FF'd and it is insta GG in many situations.
Terran bunkers can't be repaired if protoss abuses forcefields.
A pylon near your base neglects the distance from the players bases and removes the advantage of getting your
reinforcements faster close to your base as terran or zerg.
Warp Gate should at the very least be a midgame upgrade.
Preferably you would have to give up something for transforming a gateway to a warp gate.
Maybe the ability to use chrono on WG cooldown so that it would be faster to make stuff out of a gateway.
The two other races needs viable options to break forcefields. The only units that can do this are Thors and Ultras.
Either this, or forcefield duration time must decrease.
I would like it to not be possible to cast forcefields to move units. If a unit is occupying a part of the area of the forcefield it simply cannot be casted.
These changes would make the race more balanceable while only removing abuse.
To mods: This is NOT balance whine.
These are legitimate concerns about fundamental game design. For all I care the matchup is balanced in some sense of the word.
Please don't ban me for "balance whine" again when I'm only addressing design issues.
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As a reply to one-one-one.
I try to steer clear of balance discussions now a days after seeing what MVP did to both Nani and PartinG, the game may be balanced, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. I think that, gameplay wise, and game design wise, Protoss may truly be broken, and it has long reaching ramifications and effects in everything SC2 related, all match ups and even maps.
All that you've said I've thought about for a long time now and I agree with. Not only can Protoss gain some really strong early game defenders advantage due to sentries, forcing a lot of passivity in the early and early-mid game. But they can also deny a lot of defenders advantage due to WG.
The protoss over reliance on FF also makes the race too deathballish. You never, ever in a million years see a protoss do a two pronged attack, ever. The army composition is rigid, and it makes it slightly predictable and less exciting. While zergs and terrans can do backstabs, run-bys, drops, two-three pronged attacks, toss can only attack in one way.
You also hardly ever see Toss go for skirmishes out in the open with just zealot and stalkers, because they rely so much on sentries that they die without them, again it takes out a lot of excitement.
As for GW and WG, its sad that, after you upgrade to WG, you never ever need to use GWs again. It would have been infinitely more interesting if, for example GWs have shorter training time or say just leave it as it is now, but WG has like 50% or more training time but can warp on power. That would cause so many interesting trade offs and strategic choices.
You'd see Protoss have to chose between chrono on Nexus, Forges etc, or chrono on WG to get out unis faster for a faster sneak push, or see toss juggle some WG to GW and back and forth depending on if he is defending or attacking. Or even see Tosses have to split some of their gates into GW and WG to try multi-pronged action, defending and attacking at the same time.
Right now WG is very one dimensional, uninteresting, and concept wise, broken, because it denies defenders advantage. It needs a good hard looking into.
And lastly for maps. I talk to a lot of map makers, and a lot of them agree that MMing in SC2 is more difficult/more limited, and one reason is Protoss. We've seen from last year. On smaller maps, with shorter rush distances, or difficult to take/secure 3rds. Protoss have often struggled, fast forward to today with bigger, safer macro maps, and Protoss are doing vastly better than before. The race is just too mercurial and extreme, much more so then Terran or Zerg.
Just like the previous poster, I'm not complaining about balance, I'm complaining about game design, and I think Protoss is the worst offender here, and it will take years until maybe we find some sort of middle ground, both in terms of map balance and overall Blizzard's balance.
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I dont understand why high templar and colo doesnt have fixed damage.
Terrans are forced to go heavy marine to deal with zealots and 1storm dealing damage for 2 freaking seconds = marines on 5hp. And just some colos dealing heavy AOE damage and you are fucked.
Storms should be 50damage over 4seconds on light ground units. This way marines would actually die if they stimmed but survive if they did not but a stim would maybe save them aswell. Hydras would die in 2storms instead of pretty much 1.....
Low level terrans have no way of spliting there army up, but hey... it doesnt even matter. Seen demuslim stream as well as empirekas. As much as they are able to split there army up they cant really win. The toss doesnt just have the uper hand in army, he can have his focus on a single thing, which is his templars and he will most likely win the ghost vs templar war as the terrans focus will be on doing 4things on the same time.
If Thors did AOE damage on there attacks and could be used in the same way a toss would use his colo, but maybe as a tank/damage dealing slow unit instead, maybe the match up would be different. But we wont have that now and are forced to stay on low tier.
PS. Feels stupid when i do early expand and does some kind of early preasure on a TOSS at around 8-11minutes and win the game and the toss will instantly start to complain on all in. Because he went 3base and didnt get to go late game... pretty fucked up how narrowminded players have gotten in the game atm.
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Aside from Blizzards ridiculous concept of assymetrical balance, which seems to dictate giving one race very advantage at a certain time in the game, instead of distrubting advantages and having races trade them off (mobility, direct engagement strength, reinforcement capacity, supply efficiency , etc) the idea of the needing to "deal damage" in the midgame to a protoss who has no incentive to be greedy is bit preposterous. At most a terran can take thier third a few minutes sooner than a toss who is two base turtling while teching to storm/upgrades, no real drop damage is going to be done to a two base protoss assuming they are even midly competent at this game which, at times, is probably a bit much to assume.
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as much as i love tasteless and artosis's commentary, i feel irritated everytime when they shouted "NICE STORMS!"
LOL its just me though
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I have a suspicion that in a month or two terrans might be whining more about zerg than protoss.
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On May 15 2012 19:53 one-one-one wrote:
Warp Gate should at the very least be a midgame upgrade.
Preferably you would have to give up something for transforming a gateway to a warp gate.
Maybe the ability to use chrono on WG cooldown so that it would be faster to make stuff out of a gateway.
The two other races needs viable options to break forcefields. The only units that can do this are Thors and Ultras.
Either this, or forcefield duration time must decrease.
I would like it to not be possible to cast forcefields to move units. If a unit is occupying a part of the area of the forcefield it simply cannot be casted.
These changes would make the race more balanceable while only removing abuse.
To mods: This is NOT balance whine.
These are legitimate concerns about fundamental game design. For all I care the matchup is balanced in some sense of the word.
Please don't ban me for "balance whine" again when I'm only addressing design issues.
Seriously you're claiming it's not balance whine when all you do is call for nerfs without thinking things through?
Let's quickly review: Warp Gate being a mid-game upgrade would so horrendously break early game P it's not even funny. There's a reason every Protoss gets Warp Gate tech ASAP...because our units are largely terrible early game.
As for your forcefield complaints/ideas they're just laughable. Forcefields are pretty much the ONLY reason Protoss can hold a lot of things. Making them easier to circumvent would result in any chance of Protoss surviving certain all-ins and types of attack being laughable at best. Not to mention your idea about not being able to cast forcefields where units are...that genuinely blows my mind. Splitting up armies is one of the only ways Protoss manages to win certain engagements without just being flat out overwhelmed. And good luck stopping speedling runbys with forcefields if you can't "push" units with them.
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4713 Posts
On May 15 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 19:53 one-one-one wrote:
Warp Gate should at the very least be a midgame upgrade.
Preferably you would have to give up something for transforming a gateway to a warp gate.
Maybe the ability to use chrono on WG cooldown so that it would be faster to make stuff out of a gateway.
The two other races needs viable options to break forcefields. The only units that can do this are Thors and Ultras.
Either this, or forcefield duration time must decrease.
I would like it to not be possible to cast forcefields to move units. If a unit is occupying a part of the area of the forcefield it simply cannot be casted.
These changes would make the race more balanceable while only removing abuse.
To mods: This is NOT balance whine.
These are legitimate concerns about fundamental game design. For all I care the matchup is balanced in some sense of the word.
Please don't ban me for "balance whine" again when I'm only addressing design issues.
Seriously you're claiming it's not balance whine when all you do is call for nerfs without thinking things through? Let's quickly review: Warp Gate being a mid-game upgrade would so horrendously break early game P it's not even funny. There's a reason every Protoss gets Warp Gate tech ASAP...because our units are largely terrible early game. As for your forcefield complaints/ideas they're just laughable. Forcefields are pretty much the ONLY reason Protoss can hold a lot of things. Making them easier to circumvent would result in any chance of Protoss surviving certain all-ins and types of attack being laughable at best. Not to mention your idea about not being able to cast forcefields where units are...that genuinely blows my mind. Splitting up armies is one of the only ways Protoss manages to win certain engagements without just being flat out overwhelmed. And good luck stopping speedling runbys with forcefields if you can't "push" units with them.
You are terribly single minded. If both FF and WG where to be re-worked, then you could buff zealots and stalkers early game (special emphasis on EARLY game), and it could lead to better and more exciting play. You could see small skirmishes or multi-pronged protoss attacks, given that they are no longer bound by the protection of their sentries, or the mobility of their warp.
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On May 15 2012 21:27 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 15 2012 19:53 one-one-one wrote:
Warp Gate should at the very least be a midgame upgrade.
Preferably you would have to give up something for transforming a gateway to a warp gate.
Maybe the ability to use chrono on WG cooldown so that it would be faster to make stuff out of a gateway.
The two other races needs viable options to break forcefields. The only units that can do this are Thors and Ultras.
Either this, or forcefield duration time must decrease.
I would like it to not be possible to cast forcefields to move units. If a unit is occupying a part of the area of the forcefield it simply cannot be casted.
These changes would make the race more balanceable while only removing abuse.
To mods: This is NOT balance whine.
These are legitimate concerns about fundamental game design. For all I care the matchup is balanced in some sense of the word.
Please don't ban me for "balance whine" again when I'm only addressing design issues.
Seriously you're claiming it's not balance whine when all you do is call for nerfs without thinking things through? Let's quickly review: Warp Gate being a mid-game upgrade would so horrendously break early game P it's not even funny. There's a reason every Protoss gets Warp Gate tech ASAP...because our units are largely terrible early game. As for your forcefield complaints/ideas they're just laughable. Forcefields are pretty much the ONLY reason Protoss can hold a lot of things. Making them easier to circumvent would result in any chance of Protoss surviving certain all-ins and types of attack being laughable at best. Not to mention your idea about not being able to cast forcefields where units are...that genuinely blows my mind. Splitting up armies is one of the only ways Protoss manages to win certain engagements without just being flat out overwhelmed. And good luck stopping speedling runbys with forcefields if you can't "push" units with them. You are terribly single minded. If both FF and WG where to be re-worked, then you could buff zealots and stalkers early game (special emphasis on EARLY game), and it could lead to better and more exciting play. You could see small skirmishes or multi-pronged protoss attacks, given that they are no longer bound by the protection of their sentries, or the mobility of their warp.
Yes, I am clearly terribly single-minded for addressing the EXACT NERFS HE SUGGESTED. He didn't suggest any balancing buffs. He didn't suggest how things could be adjusted to make stuff like baneling busts not totally tear apart Protoss expansions with nerfed forcefields. He just flat out suggested nerfs.
If I suggested that stimpack is way too strong and should be removed every Terran player would throw a damn fit. Even if you COULD buff other units to make up for that loss the simple fact would be I never actually suggested it in the first place. So people would be right to criticise my suggestion.
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On May 15 2012 21:36 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 21:27 Destructicon wrote:On May 15 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 15 2012 19:53 one-one-one wrote:
Warp Gate should at the very least be a midgame upgrade.
Preferably you would have to give up something for transforming a gateway to a warp gate.
Maybe the ability to use chrono on WG cooldown so that it would be faster to make stuff out of a gateway.
The two other races needs viable options to break forcefields. The only units that can do this are Thors and Ultras.
Either this, or forcefield duration time must decrease.
I would like it to not be possible to cast forcefields to move units. If a unit is occupying a part of the area of the forcefield it simply cannot be casted.
These changes would make the race more balanceable while only removing abuse.
To mods: This is NOT balance whine.
These are legitimate concerns about fundamental game design. For all I care the matchup is balanced in some sense of the word.
Please don't ban me for "balance whine" again when I'm only addressing design issues.
Seriously you're claiming it's not balance whine when all you do is call for nerfs without thinking things through? Let's quickly review: Warp Gate being a mid-game upgrade would so horrendously break early game P it's not even funny. There's a reason every Protoss gets Warp Gate tech ASAP...because our units are largely terrible early game. As for your forcefield complaints/ideas they're just laughable. Forcefields are pretty much the ONLY reason Protoss can hold a lot of things. Making them easier to circumvent would result in any chance of Protoss surviving certain all-ins and types of attack being laughable at best. Not to mention your idea about not being able to cast forcefields where units are...that genuinely blows my mind. Splitting up armies is one of the only ways Protoss manages to win certain engagements without just being flat out overwhelmed. And good luck stopping speedling runbys with forcefields if you can't "push" units with them. You are terribly single minded. If both FF and WG where to be re-worked, then you could buff zealots and stalkers early game (special emphasis on EARLY game), and it could lead to better and more exciting play. You could see small skirmishes or multi-pronged protoss attacks, given that they are no longer bound by the protection of their sentries, or the mobility of their warp. Yes, I am clearly terribly single-minded for addressing the EXACT NERFS HE SUGGESTED. He didn't suggest any balancing buffs. He didn't suggest how things could be adjusted to make stuff like baneling busts not totally tear apart Protoss expansions with nerfed forcefields. He just flat out suggested nerfs. If I suggested that stimpack is way too strong and should be removed every Terran player would throw a damn fit. Even if you COULD buff other units to make up for that loss the simple fact would be I never actually suggested it in the first place. So people would be right to criticise my suggestion.
LOL
I don't even know where to begin ...
But here goes.
Ofc I never intended the game to be imbalanced in terrans favor.
What I meant , which Destruction understood and tried to explain to you, was that that the poor design of the game has made the protoss race very one-dimensional. The fact that you have to rely on force fields to not just outright die in the early game is an example of this.
If WG and FF were reworked it would have positive effects for all PvX matchups.
Ofc you would have to change other things as well to balance the game.
The point is that it would be easier to balance the game than it is now.
As you said: there are situations where if protoss misses a single forcefield he can die, which you and I both can agree is very poor design.
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its just like a toss not doing shit and waiting for broodlords to come ezpz
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On May 15 2012 21:05 gengka wrote:
as much as i love tasteless and artosis's commentary, i feel irritated everytime when they shouted "NICE STORMS!"
LOL its just me though
It's all casters. They get so damn excited over 4 storms when that's the output of one HT with full energy. High Templars should be able to throw down max 2 storms each. That would not break anything and would help so much with late game engagements where the Terran hits all EMPs and then still gets hit with 15 storms.
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4713 Posts
On May 15 2012 22:25 DelugeSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 21:05 gengka wrote:
as much as i love tasteless and artosis's commentary, i feel irritated everytime when they shouted "NICE STORMS!"
LOL its just me though It's all casters. They get so damn excited over 4 storms when that's the output of one HT with full energy. High Templars should be able to throw down max 2 storms each. That would not break anything and would help so much with late game engagements where the Terran hits all EMPs and then still gets hit with 15 storms.
Come again? A HT has a maximum of 200 energy and a Psi storm costs 75 energy. In no way can a HT produce 4 storms, 4 feedbacks yes, storms no.
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On May 15 2012 22:25 DelugeSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 21:05 gengka wrote:
as much as i love tasteless and artosis's commentary, i feel irritated everytime when they shouted "NICE STORMS!"
LOL its just me though It's all casters. They get so damn excited over 4 storms when that's the output of one HT with full energy. High Templars should be able to throw down max 2 storms each. That would not break anything and would help so much with late game engagements where the Terran hits all EMPs and then still gets hit with 15 storms.
Yah, uh, you don't know what you're talking about. Your suggested change is already status quo lol.
Storm = 75 energy
HT = max 200 energy
Do the math.
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On May 15 2012 18:48 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 17:35 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 15 2012 12:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me. so show me some replays, I'm open to learning the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP Match-up isn't broken. Metagame favors Protoss. Or I guess TvP was broken too when it was all terrans in the ro8 for however many seasons crushing the 1 or 2 protoss that even got in several seasons ago. First, how is the period of terran beating protoss (mostly with 1-1-1 by the way, not the overall matchup) relevant at all to this current discussion? Even if a race were to be ridiculously overpowered for 12 months, and then suddenly in one month it becomes ridiculously underpowered doesn't make it "okay" - it is just as egregious for a person who wants to see a fair game. The argument "well terran won a lot in the past so it is their turn to lose" holds NO weight with me. If you wanted a fair chance back when terran was winning you should want a fair chance now. The fact that the matchup is terrible to play and terrible to watch makes it even more in need of SOMETHING. And back when every protoss was dying to 1-1-1 everyone SCREAMED and WHINED to blizzard until they came and held the protoss players' hands and changed the game from them. Over and over blizzard has changed the game based on community whining, the precedent has been set. It is in a terran's player best interest to whine and cry about the matchup - the matchup which for all intents and purposes is utterly broken and unplayable for the average player.
I bolded the part I wanted to address. Let's assume for a moment that winning lategame in PvT with maxxed armies where both sides is on 3+ bases is even on the same level of play as a 1-base allin.
I notice that when I search TL for a thread on the 1-1-1, I do not find a 93-page thread full of terrans with such valuable insights as "oh, so I guess I have to allin. thx blizz" and "I can have 400 APM and still lose to a protoss who has 75 APM because he has Colossi. lol" (paraphrased).
Funny to note that despite this rampant outbreak of crying (not found on TL), they changed things - and in light of the 93-page thread saying that PvT is easy, Terran is the worst designed race, and that Terran players are better but lose because Blizzard sucks, Blizzard has... done nothing. It seems there may be a flaw with your "whining = balance changes inc" theory.
Edit: In fact, didn't David Kim just recently say something along the lines of "we hear people talking about TvP as a problem, but we aren't seeing anything like that so we aren't making any changes yet"?
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On May 15 2012 22:34 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 18:48 Horseballs wrote:On May 15 2012 17:35 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 15 2012 12:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me. so show me some replays, I'm open to learning the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP Match-up isn't broken. Metagame favors Protoss. Or I guess TvP was broken too when it was all terrans in the ro8 for however many seasons crushing the 1 or 2 protoss that even got in several seasons ago. First, how is the period of terran beating protoss (mostly with 1-1-1 by the way, not the overall matchup) relevant at all to this current discussion? Even if a race were to be ridiculously overpowered for 12 months, and then suddenly in one month it becomes ridiculously underpowered doesn't make it "okay" - it is just as egregious for a person who wants to see a fair game. The argument "well terran won a lot in the past so it is their turn to lose" holds NO weight with me. If you wanted a fair chance back when terran was winning you should want a fair chance now. The fact that the matchup is terrible to play and terrible to watch makes it even more in need of SOMETHING. And back when every protoss was dying to 1-1-1 everyone SCREAMED and WHINED to blizzard until they came and held the protoss players' hands and changed the game from them. Over and over blizzard has changed the game based on community whining, the precedent has been set. It is in a terran's player best interest to whine and cry about the matchup - the matchup which for all intents and purposes is utterly broken and unplayable for the average player. I bolded the part I wanted to address. Let's assume for a moment that winning lategame in PvT with maxxed armies where both sides is on 3+ bases is even on the same level of play as a 1-base allin. I notice that when I search TL for a thread on the 1-1-1, I do not find a 93-page thread full of terrans with such valuable insights as "oh, so I guess I have to allin. thx blizz" and "I can have 400 APM and still lose to a protoss who has 75 APM because he has Colossi. lol" (paraphrased). Funny to note that despite this rampant outbreak of crying (not found on TL), they changed things - and in light of the 93-page thread saying that PvT is easy, Terran is the worst designed race, and that Terran players are better but lose because Blizzard sucks, Blizzard has... done nothing. It seems there may be a flaw with your "whining = balance changes inc" theory. Edit: In fact, didn't David Kim just recently say something along the lines of "we hear people talking about TvP as a problem, but we aren't seeing anything like that so we aren't making any changes yet"?
1. That blizzard hasn't nerfed something doesn't mean it wasn't a balance problem; I think everyone has disagreed with David Kim at one point or another.
2. I don't remember a specific complaining thread either, but that doesn't mean there weren't complaints. The strat forum was clogged with like 5 "how to hold 1-1-1" guides with all the same advice, and the LR thread whenever a T 1-1-1ed was pretty toxic.
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If you really honestly think that lategame protoss and terran are even remotely in the same level of difficulty (only lategame, I'm saying nothing about early and mid), then you have never actually played this game.
The amount of work required to win a lategame tvp battle is staggering. As protoss you can essentially 1a, colossi ftw.
1a-ing both armies into one another will result in a ridiculously one sided win for the protoss.
Ok, so 1a isn't the point, then what is?
While the game must be primarily balanced at a pro level, there can't be a pro scene unless the game is still fun for the vast majority of people to play. And in the current metagame, it simply isn't. If there is no low level players there are no pros of tomorrow and no one watching streams and tournaments.
There's a reason LoL has overtaken sc2 as the premiere esport.
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I'm becoming sick of always reading the same things, protoss are OP due to forcefileds ? Man please try it and lose half of your games because you missed 1 forcefield... things are even for every race, if you make mistakes, you lose, if you destabilize your opponent causing him to make mistakes, you win.
Did all the whining terrans here tried to deny multiple drops in 3 locations with a protoss army ? ofc not, it's almost impossible to balance 1/3 protoss army vs 1/3 terran army.
Please, just try to improve your gameplay instead of running in front of forcefields and whine cause you lose the game.
+ Sentries cost 100 gas, do you know how it delay every single tech path to defend yourself with 4+ sentries against terran ? (minimum to perma FF a main choke)
No offense here but still, stop complaining please. those threads are just useless.
cya
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EPT
