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On May 15 2012 14:03 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this? It's no different to BW tvz design, try playing greedy fast third and passive with bio and see how long you last by giving zerg free reign to expo and go 4+ gas ultra. If mech was viable TvP you might be able to go straight to late game with minimal harrass but as long as you're going heavy T1 you need to get something done with it. Going heavy bio then just waiting for toss to tech to a composition that's effective against it is pretty counter-intuitive.
This is incorrect. In BW TvZ, if you could deny/delay the third of a protoss then you're in a good position, and terran had timings to do that.
In SC2 TvP, protoss can get a third at a reasonable timing while playing very safe, and then you can make a death ball and crush a terran that is 1-2 bases ahead of you because of your death ball + reinforcement mechanics.
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On May 15 2012 14:09 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 14:03 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this? It's no different to BW tvz design, try playing greedy fast third and passive with bio and see how long you last by giving zerg free reign to expo and go 4+ gas ultra. If mech was viable TvP you might be able to go straight to late game with minimal harrass but as long as you're going heavy T1 you need to get something done with it. Going heavy bio then just waiting for toss to tech to a composition that's effective against it is pretty counter-intuitive. This is incorrect. In BW TvZ, if you could deny/delay the third of a protoss then you're in a good position, and terran had timings to do that.
#1 It's the third of a zerg
#2 that's called getting something done
#3 you can deny/delay thirds vs toss in sc2 in much the same way if you take map control with bio-medivac before toss t3 kicks in
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On May 15 2012 14:03 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this? Less fun ok. You still can use the mech TvP build around here on TL. It seems ok. Or just do like me and write A MOVE instaed of GG at the end of the game. It's enough forr me to move on the next game afetr watching the replay to know what I did bad.
That's how it works in TvZ as well? Though I guess maybe your point is that Mech works in TvZ but not in TvP. If so then I agree, they should make mech TvP more viable. Though it still works pretty well on ladder 
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TvP feels like groundhog day every single time i watch it/play it. Its been the same ever since the beginning except now pros dont really experiment anything in that matchup as much as they did before.
A matchup that use to be considered one of the best matchups to spectate in BW has turned into something worse as watching grass grow or a hamster on a wheel..
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On May 15 2012 14:09 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 14:03 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this? It's no different to BW tvz design, try playing greedy fast third and passive with bio and see how long you last by giving zerg free reign to expo and go 4+ gas ultra. If mech was viable TvP you might be able to go straight to late game with minimal harrass but as long as you're going heavy T1 you need to get something done with it. Going heavy bio then just waiting for toss to tech to a composition that's effective against it is pretty counter-intuitive. This is incorrect. In BW TvZ, if you could deny/delay the third of a protoss then you're in a good position, and terran had timings to do that. In SC2 TvP, protoss can get a third at a reasonable timing while playing very safe, and then you can make a death ball and crush a terran that is 1-2 bases ahead of you because of your death ball + reinforcement mechanics.
This is a load of bullshit, Bomber and other Korean T's routinely stomp fast 3rds through fast Medivac play off 2 bases. Protoss cannot defend 3rds on alot of maps because they are open enough for Terran to kite city their units down. Without Storm/Colossus it is very difficult to maintain that 3rd, that's why alot of P don't even bother taking the 3rd until they have Storm/Colossus or they know the T is taking a fast 3rd.
There are some issues with the match-up, but there's alot of unwarranted bitching here like somehow TvP is suppose to not be this way. In BW, it was tremendously harder for Terran than it is right now. At least you can pressure and maintain map control in a much easier way with Bio/Medivacs than you could with Vulture/Tank. Any Mech play in BW took some serious skill to play, much more than anything in SC2 right now.
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On May 15 2012 14:23 YyapSsap wrote:
TvP feels like groundhog day every single time i watch it/play it. Its been the same ever since the beginning except now pros dont really experiment anything in that matchup as much as they did before.
A matchup that use to be considered the best to spectate in BW has turned into something worse as watching grass grow or a hamster on a wheel..
In my own personal preference, I always found TvZ/PvZ more entertaining than PvT. Was a pretty boring game unless someone committed to a bust.
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wow, this thread is on its 92 nd page already. I don't remember we had ever discussed so much in a single balancing topic before.
The fact that this thread is still so hot and no signs of stopping at the moment proves that there is really something wrong with this T v P match up. Everything happens for a reason.
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On May 15 2012 14:03 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this? It's no different to BW tvz design, try playing greedy fast third and passive with bio and see how long you last by giving zerg free reign to expo and go 4+ gas ultra. If mech was viable TvP you might be able to go straight to late game with minimal harrass but as long as you're going heavy T1 you need to get something done with it. Going heavy bio then just waiting for toss to tech to a composition that's effective against it is pretty counter-intuitive.
I believe if the zerg gets for a ton of ultra/defiler the 'counter' is tons of tank/science vessel, no?
The same applies to TvP in SC2. The thing is people just aren't getting enough of those T2 units the Ghost and Viking.
On May 15 2012 14:45 gengka wrote:
wow, this thread is on its 92 nd page already. I don't remember we had ever discussed so much in a single balancing topic before.
The fact that this thread is still so hot and no signs of stopping at the moment proves that there is really something wrong with this T v P match up. Everything happens for a reason.
I wouldn't be completely adverse to buffs, but I personally just don't like the Protoss race in SC2 as a whole. Low micro potential, units are not fun to deal with as the other race, and rewards turtling far more than coming out and doing something. I'm especially angry at the colossus. Such a stupid one dimensional unit. You have vikings you're even, you don't you die.
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On May 15 2012 14:33 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 14:23 YyapSsap wrote:
TvP feels like groundhog day every single time i watch it/play it. Its been the same ever since the beginning except now pros dont really experiment anything in that matchup as much as they did before.
A matchup that use to be considered the best to spectate in BW has turned into something worse as watching grass grow or a hamster on a wheel.. In my own personal preference, I always found TvZ/PvZ more entertaining than PvT. Was a pretty boring game unless someone committed to a bust.
Oops, I meant one of* the best. Anytime vs Boxer at So1 finals (this was so epic) is probably one of the best TvP series to highlight just how exciting this matchup was (even against Pusan in the semi finals).
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If they want mech to work, can't they just add a second upgrade to tanks that requires an armory and does only bonus to shields? Something like +10 to shields would lower the volley count on both zealots and stalkers by one. It sounds weird as hell but it can't affect any other matchup.
And they should just scrap strike cannon entirely with the Thor's mana.
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On May 15 2012 15:13 SolidMoose wrote:
If they want mech to work, can't they just add a second upgrade to tanks that requires an armory and does only bonus to shields? Something like +10 to shields would lower the volley count on both zealots and stalkers by one. It sounds weird as hell but it can't affect any other matchup.
And they should just scrap strike cannon entirely with the Thor's mana.
When they removed the Thors energy, late game mech was my fave transition vs toss.
Now that Thors have energy templars show up and ave kadavra my ass.
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feels like this thread has gone everywhere it could have, and is now just a bunch of mindless terrans ranting about their least favorite m/u in the current metagame. should be closed IMO, unless I'm the only one who finds balance complaints annoying.
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On May 15 2012 09:51 Solo Terran wrote:
Warp in should only we available with the warp prism. Warp in is honestly so retarded is basically single handidly ruins Starcraft 2, not even joking in the slightest. Can you imaging playing TvP where when you have an engagement and both armies are destroyed there isn't 20 chargelots instantly in your base? Can you imagine watching PvP where their is actually a defenders advantage instead of how BS it currently is. Blizzard needs to just admit warp gates we're broken from the start and balance protoss around non warp gates in HoTS.
Protoss would lose like every pvt? Maybe if it was at least available with a nexus.
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You know what's hilarious is that none of these problems are prevalent on FRB maps for the most part as death balls just get absolutely picked apart.
It's not the game, the game is actually pretty fucking close to balanced. It's the maps and they are SHIIIIIIIIIIIIITYY.
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@ Drowsy:
Protoss would lose every PvZ too. WG is as much a core design feature of Protoss as are reactors for Terran and larvae inject for Zerg. Without the ability to reinforce at a point or without the faster production capabilities granted by WG tech, Protoss would not be able to compete with the numerically stronger Zerg and Terran armies through the game. If gateway units were produced out of gates, build times would have to be reduced which would complicate the early game (e.g. 2 gate zealot rush vs Z). If build times were not adjusted, Protoss would not survive the early game (there is a reason most Protoss players feel a little easier when they hear the sound of their gates morphing) and would limit attacking options in the early/mid game as well.
It's crazy that people still moan about WG tech. It may, or may not be, a bad design choice (along with chronoboost, reactors, mules, larvae inject, creep etc) but it is central to the game. Changing it in any fundamental way would mean a redesign of the game itself. This is not going to happen. Either play the game as it is or stop playing if you don't like core features.
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there won't be any changes until hots, no need to argue really
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they have Lotv to change WG, the problem is not that it is not possible to change, but that they think, is "cool"
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He did say warp prism. It's 2 food, so it's kind of ok.
And to the guy about terran t2: ghosts are so bad for anything except getting rid of templars and vikings are only useful against colossi.
Lategame it becomes really retarded, when the toss has both, because you still need 10+ vikings to deal with 3 colossi, which weakens your army really badly.
And if your vikings survive the toss just warps in a million zealots, templards and/or archons plus immortals and your vikings are completely useless.
The problem is that terran has to build downright bad units to counter lategame toss, who can easily just reinforce with something, that the counter is useless against.
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this why the hard -counter system fail
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On May 15 2012 12:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me. so show me some replays, I'm open to learning the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP
Pretty easy to be MVP: Learn a few all-in build orders. Its not even like I'm trying to discredit him, it's pretty much the case. He does nothing extra-ordinarily amazing after mid game. Very little harassment in general. Control isn't really on the level of MKP/MMA/Supernova. Could be because of his CTS. Either way, his TvP is fairly generic. The only thing I thought was substantial from his games vs parting was how active he was in pressuring the natural (there by pressuring the third) in all of the games he didn't all-in. The one game he lost from the two he did this, he sat on his half of the map (got caught) and waited for parting to come to him. lol.
Match-up isn't broken. Metagame favors Protoss. Or I guess TvP was broken too when it was all terrans in the ro8 for however many seasons crushing the 1 or 2 protoss that even got in several seasons ago.
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EPT
