TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 94

On May 15 2012 22:25 DelugeSC wrote:


It's all casters. They get so damn excited over 4 storms when that's the output of one HT with full energy. High Templars should be able to throw down max 2 storms each. That would not break anything and would help so much with late game engagements where the Terran hits all EMPs and then still gets hit with 15 storms.

On May 15 2012 22:51 okecheyriii wrote:
I'm becoming sick of always reading the same things, protoss are OP due to forcefileds ? Man please try it and lose half of your games because you missed 1 forcefield... things are even for every race, if you make mistakes, you lose, if you destabilize your opponent causing him to make mistakes, you win.

Did all the whining terrans here tried to deny multiple drops in 3 locations with a protoss army ? ofc not, it's almost impossible to balance 1/3 protoss army vs 1/3 terran army.

Please, just try to improve your gameplay instead of running in front of forcefields and whine cause you lose the game.

+ Sentries cost 100 gas, do you know how it delay every single tech path to defend yourself with 4+ sentries against terran ? (minimum to perma FF a main choke)

No offense here but still, stop complaining please. those threads are just useless.

cya

On May 15 2012 22:43 Whynaut wrote:


1. That blizzard hasn't nerfed something doesn't mean it wasn't a balance problem; I think everyone has disagreed with David Kim at one point or another.

2. I don't remember a specific complaining thread either, but that doesn't mean there weren't complaints. The strat forum was clogged with like 5 "how to hold 1-1-1" guides with all the same advice, and the LR thread whenever a T 1-1-1ed was pretty toxic.

On May 15 2012 23:15 ryx wrote:
"Protoss is so easy, you can just 1a into terran and win."

Pull back your stalkers, put up guardian shield, maybe throw down an ff or two, focus your colossi, focus your stalkers, bring in your HT's to throw down a couple of storms, pull back/blink back hurt units, warp in new units. There's a little more to it than 1a... Just about as much as put marauders forward, hit stim, maybe throw down an EMP or two, focus your vikings, do shit with your medivacs, spread out your unit, rally in new ones.

Anyway, there are tons of 1 control group terrans that think they can get away with balling all of their units against a shitload of protoss AoE. Maybe spreading out your units and forcing engagements in open space with flanks will help a bit? Zergs are pretty good at it. Then again, zerg players aren't as averse to using their brains and putting a little more effort into things as terrans are.

edit: Bring back dark swarm and lurkers so ball terrans can hate late game ZvT too

On May 15 2012 21:57 one-one-one wrote:


LOL

I don't even know where to begin ...

But here goes.
Ofc I never intended the game to be imbalanced in terrans favor.

What I meant , which Destruction understood and tried to explain to you, was that that the poor design of the game has made the protoss race very one-dimensional. The fact that you have to rely on force fields to not just outright die in the early game is an example of this.

If WG and FF were reworked it would have positive effects for all PvX matchups.
Ofc you would have to change other things as well to balance the game.

The point is that it would be easier to balance the game than it is now.

As you said: there are situations where if protoss misses a single forcefield he can die, which you and I both can agree is very poor design.

On May 15 2012 22:25 DelugeSC wrote:


It's all casters. They get so damn excited over 4 storms when that's the output of one HT with full energy. High Templars should be able to throw down max 2 storms each. That would not break anything and would help so much with late game engagements where the Terran hits all EMPs and then still gets hit with 15 storms.

On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:
hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ?

WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design

Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential.

On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:
hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ?

WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design

Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential.

On May 16 2012 00:35 Lightspeaker wrote:


Then actually come up with a workable overall balance suggestion. Don't just say "nerf this into the ground, then we can rebalance" because it doesn't work like that. People play this as their job to earn money; straight up bombing out Protoss and then looking to balance it isn't going to cut it.

Example: I personally hate roaches. I hate playing against them and I hate using them when I play about with Zerg. I find them boring and one-dimensional. That said, if I say "remove the roach" then I better have an actual alternative replacement suggestion because otherwise it's a straight up nerf that would absolutely devastate Zerg.

And honestly yeah the missed forcefield example is really, really annoying. You just die. I'm not sure you can fix it though because simply put: Protoss micro is all about absolute precision rather than speed. If you take the focus off that you make it too easy.




Please, please, please if people are going to whine about something can you at LEAST check your facts on Liquipedia before spouting off about something that is factually incorrect. Ghosts can put down exactly as many EMPs as HTs can storm - 2. Except with the energy upgrade they can fire one off right after production.

On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:
The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS.

On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:


I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful.

Personally I have some suggestions for TvP:

Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much.

Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost.

I would love to hear some serious thoughts.

On May 16 2012 01:07 Tyrant0 wrote:


You also have to keep in mind concerning the cost of infestors and ghosts that between all three races, Protoss has the weakest tier 1 units. High Templar supplement those weaknesses. It's just being analyzed now because Protoss are innovating new levels of greed to reach their late game quicker.

That being said, it'd be a viable nerf but if you ACTUALLY wanted to shut down protoss lategame (whether or not it needs to happen at ALL), this wouldn't really do anything but guarentee that colossus will come first and HT's will be made on 3 base. But Protoss do this anyways. So ultimately, they'll max a little slower. It's difficult to theorycraft any further beyond this point, though.

On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:


I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful.

Personally I have some suggestions for TvP:

Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much.

Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost.

I would love to hear some serious thoughts.