EPTTvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 94
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Zoesan
Switzerland141 Posts
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pOnarreT
155 Posts
On May 15 2012 22:25 DelugeSC wrote: It's all casters. They get so damn excited over 4 storms when that's the output of one HT with full energy. High Templars should be able to throw down max 2 storms each. That would not break anything and would help so much with late game engagements where the Terran hits all EMPs and then still gets hit with 15 storms. lol, 4 storms on one ht... | ||
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ryx
Philippines38 Posts
Pull back your stalkers, put up guardian shield, maybe throw down an ff or two, focus your colossi, focus your stalkers, bring in your HT's to throw down a couple of storms, pull back/blink back hurt units, warp in new units. There's a little more to it than 1a... Just about as much as put marauders forward, hit stim, maybe throw down an EMP or two, focus your vikings, do shit with your medivacs, spread out your unit, rally in new ones. Anyway, there are tons of 1 control group terrans that think they can get away with balling all of their units against a shitload of protoss AoE. Maybe spreading out your units and forcing engagements in open space with flanks will help a bit? Zergs are pretty good at it. Then again, zerg players aren't as averse to using their brains and putting a little more effort into things as terrans are. edit: Bring back dark swarm and lurkers so ball terrans can hate late game ZvT too | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On May 15 2012 22:51 okecheyriii wrote: I'm becoming sick of always reading the same things, protoss are OP due to forcefileds ? Man please try it and lose half of your games because you missed 1 forcefield... things are even for every race, if you make mistakes, you lose, if you destabilize your opponent causing him to make mistakes, you win. Did all the whining terrans here tried to deny multiple drops in 3 locations with a protoss army ? ofc not, it's almost impossible to balance 1/3 protoss army vs 1/3 terran army. Please, just try to improve your gameplay instead of running in front of forcefields and whine cause you lose the game. + Sentries cost 100 gas, do you know how it delay every single tech path to defend yourself with 4+ sentries against terran ? (minimum to perma FF a main choke) No offense here but still, stop complaining please. those threads are just useless. cya cannon + hts and not goivn over 190 supply, best drop defense for multiple locations without sacrificing alot of your supply. Otherwise just snipe the medivacs if they drop so much early and win the game because you can roll over them if they have not enough heal out. And forcefields are OP, thats why sentries cost you 100 gas. But missing a forcefield is only a gameover if you were cutting corners on your sentry count. Most people mentioning Forcefields as op though, result out of only a clicking around. As forcefields ruin the pathing when you only a click and the opponent ends up with units not fireing. More their own lack of good controls. The sentries costing you techtime is also not really true, it was intended to get sentries in the early game, thats why toss tech is pretty cheap on the gas side at the start. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 15 2012 22:43 Whynaut wrote: 1. That blizzard hasn't nerfed something doesn't mean it wasn't a balance problem; I think everyone has disagreed with David Kim at one point or another. 2. I don't remember a specific complaining thread either, but that doesn't mean there weren't complaints. The strat forum was clogged with like 5 "how to hold 1-1-1" guides with all the same advice, and the LR thread whenever a T 1-1-1ed was pretty toxic. My point was that the theory of "protoss whined and cried like crazy and got buffs, so we should whine and cry like crazy so we can get buffs too" is inaccurate in terms of what happened, and inaccurate in terms of the stance they've taken on balance. I'm not saying David Kim is right - I'm just saying he's not going to defer to your whining if their stats don't back it up. | ||
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okecheyriii
France11 Posts
anyway, it's not the problem here... let's suppose there is a game with 2 same-skilled player. The terran one will surely delay protoss tech and deny his early-mid game army, so that when they come to late game, terran have more eco and/or more tech so he can equally fight with the protoss... What terran are asking here (imo) is that the game must be balance if the two races are standing inside their bases and just maxing out, then 1A and let's see who win. That's not the purpose of the game, it's a game where you need to be aggressive, and it's the way it should be cause it is the only thing that make it so coool, just as WC3 was. Terran can't stay in their base and wait for the late game and that's okay, if i stay in my base (as a protoss) against zerg, I know that i'll be dead soon or late. But if I kill an expand, or a tech building, wich is not that difficult, I know that I can go to lategame a bit before the zerg and maybe have a few more units so I can counter BL/infest/Corruptor composition with a bit of micro. I can concede that a 200/200 battle TvP is hard for the Terran to handle, but that's not impossible, and it should not exist. Maybe we need a system like in WC3 where, when you had a lot of pop you were taxed on income. So people are gonna fight before maxing out, and stop whining about non sense max out battle. Just for the lol, do someone know if the price of a 200/200 protoss and terran army are the same ? My opinion is that the protoss one is much more expensive isn't it ? Terran army is cost efficient as hell as it can be use for drop, front battle, little skarmish, harrass... terran don't need to choose wha't units they have to do to do one of those things. | ||
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Applesqt
United States206 Posts
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Solo Terran
367 Posts
The problem with late game TvP is clearly Warp Gate. As Terran currently if you get into an 200/200 engagement and micro better than Toss and come out evenly where both armies are destroyed you still lose the game currently. Since protoss can just instantly warp in 20+ units instantly after the fight and destroy your expansions while you wait for your production cycles to finish and run over to defend you already lost the game. If Blizzard just rebalances the game around Non Warp Gates in HoTS I think that would make the game so much better overall. Obviously they would need to re-balance the game and buff protoss in certain ways and give them more harassment options that arent just gimmicks like the DT (Oracle is a good start). And maybe buff gateway units a bit or give protoss some form of a Protoss medic that quickly heals their shields outside of battle. I'm just throwing things out there but literally anything would be better than warp gate. | ||
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okecheyriii
France11 Posts
WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design  Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On May 15 2012 23:15 ryx wrote: "Protoss is so easy, you can just 1a into terran and win." Pull back your stalkers, put up guardian shield, maybe throw down an ff or two, focus your colossi, focus your stalkers, bring in your HT's to throw down a couple of storms, pull back/blink back hurt units, warp in new units. There's a little more to it than 1a... Just about as much as put marauders forward, hit stim, maybe throw down an EMP or two, focus your vikings, do shit with your medivacs, spread out your unit, rally in new ones. Anyway, there are tons of 1 control group terrans that think they can get away with balling all of their units against a shitload of protoss AoE. Maybe spreading out your units and forcing engagements in open space with flanks will help a bit? Zergs are pretty good at it. Then again, zerg players aren't as averse to using their brains and putting a little more effort into things as terrans are. edit: Bring back dark swarm and lurkers so ball terrans can hate late game ZvT too I play protoss and terran, protoss armies are way easier to control in the late game. You shuffle around stalkers and hit "g" but mostly its 1a; the more collosus and zealots the more 1a and less anything else it gets. Terrans just have way more stuff to control, you forgot stutter stepping in your little list, which is easy to do by itself but consumes an insane amount of apm. If you try to do multipronged engagements/flanks it just gets harder. While as protoss you just have to be looking and still have sentry/templar energy. Multitasking of stutter stepping/storm dodging/emping/focus firing/ remacroing is way harder than anything protoss has to do. We both know you hit 1a, do a little micro (increases with league and skill), build a ton of zealots, hit 1a again,and then win most of the time. Its exactly what I do in high diamond so it should work below that. That said, losing/winning games because a forcefield was misplaced one hex to a 1a midgame/early game terran ball also happens. You can 1a as both races if you hit timings right. (Below masters anyways) | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On May 15 2012 21:57 one-one-one wrote: LOL I don't even know where to begin ... But here goes. Ofc I never intended the game to be imbalanced in terrans favor. What I meant , which Destruction understood and tried to explain to you, was that that the poor design of the game has made the protoss race very one-dimensional. The fact that you have to rely on force fields to not just outright die in the early game is an example of this. If WG and FF were reworked it would have positive effects for all PvX matchups. Ofc you would have to change other things as well to balance the game. The point is that it would be easier to balance the game than it is now. As you said: there are situations where if protoss misses a single forcefield he can die, which you and I both can agree is very poor design. Then actually come up with a workable overall balance suggestion. Don't just say "nerf this into the ground, then we can rebalance" because it doesn't work like that. People play this as their job to earn money; straight up bombing out Protoss and then looking to balance it isn't going to cut it. Example: I personally hate roaches. I hate playing against them and I hate using them when I play about with Zerg. I find them boring and one-dimensional. That said, if I say "remove the roach" then I better have an actual alternative replacement suggestion because otherwise it's a straight up nerf that would absolutely devastate Zerg. And honestly yeah the missed forcefield example is really, really annoying. You just die. I'm not sure you can fix it though because simply put: Protoss micro is all about absolute precision rather than speed. If you take the focus off that you make it too easy. On May 15 2012 22:25 DelugeSC wrote: It's all casters. They get so damn excited over 4 storms when that's the output of one HT with full energy. High Templars should be able to throw down max 2 storms each. That would not break anything and would help so much with late game engagements where the Terran hits all EMPs and then still gets hit with 15 storms. Please, please, please if people are going to whine about something can you at LEAST check your facts on Liquipedia before spouting off about something that is factually incorrect. Ghosts can put down exactly as many EMPs as HTs can storm - 2. Except with the energy upgrade they can fire one off right after production. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote: hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. Using alt + cam hotkey to pylon, gates hotkey, spam units is not rly harder than doing a prod cycle. And unlike Zerg it's nearly instant and close to the fight. OK T can queue units but it's not really useful until late into the game. The main problem I think is not late game balanced, but the fact you really feel like you have been A moved when you tried to do tons of things. Actually a problem of feeling, a lack of fun. In others matchup, you can say ah I reacted badly when he did this & this & this, nice play from him he was better this time. GG But against protoss late game you just feel A moved + a few storms. I don't say it is what's happening, of course protoss does other things, but it's how it seems from loser's view.. | ||
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Solo Terran
367 Posts
On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote: The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On May 16 2012 00:35 Lightspeaker wrote: Then actually come up with a workable overall balance suggestion. Don't just say "nerf this into the ground, then we can rebalance" because it doesn't work like that. People play this as their job to earn money; straight up bombing out Protoss and then looking to balance it isn't going to cut it. Example: I personally hate roaches. I hate playing against them and I hate using them when I play about with Zerg. I find them boring and one-dimensional. That said, if I say "remove the roach" then I better have an actual alternative replacement suggestion because otherwise it's a straight up nerf that would absolutely devastate Zerg. And honestly yeah the missed forcefield example is really, really annoying. You just die. I'm not sure you can fix it though because simply put: Protoss micro is all about absolute precision rather than speed. If you take the focus off that you make it too easy. Please, please, please if people are going to whine about something can you at LEAST check your facts on Liquipedia before spouting off about something that is factually incorrect. Ghosts can put down exactly as many EMPs as HTs can storm - 2. Except with the energy upgrade they can fire one off right after production. It is far beyond my comprehension how anyone could interpret what I wrote as suggesting nerfs ... Read it again. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote: The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote: I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. You also have to keep in mind concerning the cost of infestors and ghosts that between all three races, Protoss has the weakest tier 1 units. High Templar supplement those weaknesses. It's just being analyzed now because Protoss are innovating new levels of greed to reach their late game quicker. That being said, regarding HT's, it'd be a viable nerf but if you ACTUALLY wanted to shut down protoss lategame (whether or not it needs to happen at ALL), this wouldn't really do anything but guarentee that colossus will come first and HT's will be made on 3 base. But Protoss do this anyways. So ultimately, they'll max a little slower. It's difficult to theorycraft any further beyond this point, though. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On May 16 2012 01:07 Tyrant0 wrote: You also have to keep in mind concerning the cost of infestors and ghosts that between all three races, Protoss has the weakest tier 1 units. High Templar supplement those weaknesses. It's just being analyzed now because Protoss are innovating new levels of greed to reach their late game quicker. That being said, it'd be a viable nerf but if you ACTUALLY wanted to shut down protoss lategame (whether or not it needs to happen at ALL), this wouldn't really do anything but guarentee that colossus will come first and HT's will be made on 3 base. But Protoss do this anyways. So ultimately, they'll max a little slower. It's difficult to theorycraft any further beyond this point, though. Agreed. But I dont think this would shutdown late game protoss, but just slow it down slightly as you say. I also think that a slight increase to HT cost (lets say 75/150 from 50/150) would also help in the unforgiving tech switches from colossus to HT, which complete screw up Terrans. I am fully aware that a good Terran should scout, but even so, it is of such massive importance that we see top level Korean Terrans screwing this aspect of the matchup times and times again. Essentially, a slight increase cost would not only slow the max (and remax, if you think about mass hts, morphing into archons), but would crucially ease the burden off the Terran from being absolutely spot on on the number of viking + ghosts in relation to colossus and high templars. | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
I think you guys put much o much effort into thinking what is op and how to balance this, because 1. Blizzard won't read this thread through and take note of every single suggestion 2. A big change like altering warpgates in any way cnnot be expected befor HotS and this will take some time 3. I think all the whine in this thread is based off the fact, that Protoss is easier to play at a low level. I as a Protoss agree to this (tried Terran and DAMN it's difficult ^^) but as the competitive aspect of the game is all about getting better, just get better than those 40 apm 1a-ing losers. It's not impossible! tl;dr: you can't change anything, just get better or wait until the next patch | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote: I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. HTs vs Ghosts has no problems. The main issue terran has against late game toss is the colossus switch. Templars, storms are just fine, especially considering they got massively nerfed (Khaydarin amulet) already. The colossus is just a unit that has to go. I have absolutely no positive feelings about it. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On May 16 2012 00:03 Applesqt wrote: How long until the unhappy marine fanclub starts? I'm member #1 | ||
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