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On May 16 2012 02:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 02:22 StriderDoom wrote:
blizzard clearly states that the terran has an advantage in the early to mid game
so with that being said you guys want the protoss late game nerfed so the terran has the advantage all game long...?
Blizzard also happen to be wrong. There's absolutely nothign wrong with Protoss mid-game. Protoss mid-game is actually just as strong as Terran's, sometimes able to outright kill Terran by FFing bunkers with gateway attacks. Blizzard seems to be a bit out of touch on the current metagame...which is a big worrying considering it's their job to balance the game.
If you're referring to a 6 gate all-in then you'd appear to have your early and mid games mixed up.
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I would try this:
Upgrade: High Energy Pulse
Researched from: Ghost Academy
Requires: Fusion Core, Armory
Cost: 300 / 200
Time: 150
Increases the EMP radius from 1.5 to 3.5
But I also think that something should be done to nerf a little strategies like 1-1-1.
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On May 16 2012 03:18 Anachromy wrote:
I've been doing some thinking, not to say I'm the greatest sc2 analyst out there. but there is a metric that I don't believe anyone has taken into account yet. and that is the protoss shield recharge rate.
In the current design of the game, protoss shields work thusly:
Shields begin to recharge after 10 game seconds have passed. Faster plays at 140% speed, so shields will begin to recharge just after 7 real time seconds have passed.
Shields recharge at a rate of 2 points per game second.
So. lets compare this to core terran lategame unit build times.
Marine: 25 seconds
Marauder: 30 seconds
Ghost: 40 seconds
Viking & Medivac: 42 seconds
Now, lets assume a situation where the Protoss army is able to defeat the existing Terran Army. and will still have some units left over. completely disregarding warp-in reinforcements.
If Rally and Army Travel time was completely non existent, the out-of-battle Protoss units would recover the following shield amount in relationship to the build times of the terran reinforcements.
Marine: 30hp
Marauder: 40hp
Ghost: 60hp
Viking & Medivac: 64hp
as you can see. this proves to be a double-fold issue in regards to the protoss warp-in mechanic, and late-game battles against terran.
Compared to Zerg hp recovery, (excluding burrowed roaches) regenerates at a rate of 0.27 points per game second. so roughly 1hp per every 4 ingate seconds.
A Protoss army, through the shield regeneration mechanic, will be able to recover a large majority of it's shields before reinforcements of a Terran force could re-engage. so essentially, many severely injured units will be back to battle condition... And in every balance discussion I've ever read. The shield regeneration of the protoss has never been taken into question.
Now. without breaking other matchups. I would love to hear some suggestions as to how this could be modified to better suit this situation.
TL;DR version: Protoss shields regenerate too fast outside of battle. and I play protoss.
Well to be quite honest with you, I dont see this as a problem in TvP and yes, I play Terran. With the exception of archons, shields arent as big a factor as the armor of zealots. Also, I would think this would cause a big problem in PvZ where Zergs are able (due to the way they are designed) to constantly throw cheap units against protoss in the early game until they break (immortal shield regeneration against roaches especially comes to mind.).
So for TvP, this is negligible since a Protoss will almost never face this scenario (a Terran constantly attacking him). Not with the current maps almost certainly. Maybe 2 years ago with Steppes of War and close position Metalopolis, this was the case 
On the opposite side, having a Protoss attacking a Terran and regenerating again really isnt a big deal I dont think, since the counterattacks are literally instant. A Protoss who waits a bit to counter attack a Terran is essentially losing his advantage due to instant warpins.
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well worded statement from blizzard. stupid discussion.
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On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote:The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw)) Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves. The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do. Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
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On May 16 2012 03:38 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
well worded statement from blizzard. stupid discussion.
Never question anything right? Infestors should have been left with their insane dmg right?
It's clear that there are issues here, it's not just some random posters any more like you and me.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On May 16 2012 03:25 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 02:24 avilo wrote:On May 16 2012 02:22 StriderDoom wrote:
blizzard clearly states that the terran has an advantage in the early to mid game
so with that being said you guys want the protoss late game nerfed so the terran has the advantage all game long...?
Blizzard also happen to be wrong. There's absolutely nothign wrong with Protoss mid-game. Protoss mid-game is actually just as strong as Terran's, sometimes able to outright kill Terran by FFing bunkers with gateway attacks. Blizzard seems to be a bit out of touch on the current metagame...which is a big worrying considering it's their job to balance the game. If you're referring to a 6 gate all-in then you'd appear to have your early and mid games mixed up.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309028
This push is stronger than anything terrans have in the midgame.
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On May 16 2012 03:40 Solo Terran wrote:
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
To be honest, I don't want Zerg to turn into a micro fest like Terran is. It's good to have such styles available like with Mutas, for example (and like Terran has a less micro-intensive, more position-based style in Mech when it is viable), but I like the Zerg style where the units themselves rely mostly on positioning and correct engagement decisions to work and are for the most part fair - the brokenness comes from the production and that brokenness can be negated by the opponent by employing effective pressure, ending up in a state where both have pretty fair production, economy and fighting units.
In other words, something you reach for but usually do not achieve and actually just play a fair game. But with the temptation of insanity there to make it interesting. But this relies on pressure forcing Zerg to play fair or die. Super Queens sound the exact opposite of that, sadly. Pre-patch TvZ was very close to this ideal: Two forces, one pretty fair, one pretty broken in theory, but the fair pressure forces the broken side to play fair. And interesting games were had (I'd argue Z was still slightly better than T, but those kinds of things are inevitable).
There is one thing I want Zerg to get for interestingness' sake and my own selfishness (regardless of balance considerations): Especially faster and perhaps slightly cheaper drop research. The one thing Z lacks is fun things immediately after Lair due to Lair, kinda like T can rush for a Starport to grab a quick Medivac or Banshee and do fun things with it. The closest Zerg has at the moment is quick burrow play. I think being able to go for quick drop tech by going for fast gas would add an interesting, aggressive and micro-intensive option to the Zerg arsenal. Then again, chances are that it's hideously broken. But it's something I would want to try.
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On May 16 2012 04:08 serge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 03:25 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 16 2012 02:24 avilo wrote:On May 16 2012 02:22 StriderDoom wrote:
blizzard clearly states that the terran has an advantage in the early to mid game
so with that being said you guys want the protoss late game nerfed so the terran has the advantage all game long...?
Blizzard also happen to be wrong. There's absolutely nothign wrong with Protoss mid-game. Protoss mid-game is actually just as strong as Terran's, sometimes able to outright kill Terran by FFing bunkers with gateway attacks. Blizzard seems to be a bit out of touch on the current metagame...which is a big worrying considering it's their job to balance the game. If you're referring to a 6 gate all-in then you'd appear to have your early and mid games mixed up. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309028This push is stronger than anything terrans have in the midgame.
The big difference is that this push has 28 probes, whereas the 10 minute double medivac push can end games while you're on even footing in worker count and taking a third. Like if you scout gate robo gate->nexus opening with a gasless expand, you can very easily blindly throw up 4-5 bunkers and be safe from a 3 immortal push and still ahead on workers if they elect to do a different strategy. Totally different. I guess you could compare it to fast 3rd 8 gate, and that build is easily neutralized by a handful of cloaked banshees after a fast CC.
I'm still mystified this discussion continues on for so long. The matchup has been close to 50/50 at the pro level for the past several months; an outsider reading this thread would assume its like 70/30 in favor of protoss with all the whining. Terrans literally just want to have an advantage at all stages of the game and are completely blind to the outrageous advantage they have before like 16 minutes in standard games. If people insist on nerfing protoss late game, they better do something about the ridiculous leverage in the early and midgame afforded to terran players by medivacs and banshee openers.
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On May 16 2012 03:25 Tyrant0 wrote:
If you're referring to a 6 gate all-in then you'd appear to have your early and mid games mixed up.
SC2 games are so fast, it's easy to confuse the two.
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Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it)
1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc...
2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum.
3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out.
4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines.
5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control.
6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans.
7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech)
Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces.
I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess 
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On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess
Have you ever considered changing to a race more suited to your playstyle?
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On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it) 1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc... 2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum. 3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out. 4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines. 5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control. 6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans. 7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech) Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces. I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess Thanks for the advice man! Hopefully I won't rage as much following this advice. There have been times where I DESTROYED a Protoss deathball with superior micro and after the battle I still had like 30 marines and 8 marauders plus medivacs. But I made the mistake of trying to stim my already injured bio into his natural to end the game. But he just warped in like 20 chargelots and had a random HT at his base he didnt use in the engagement and my bio foce instantly got wrecked. And even though I won the 200/200 engagement decisively I went on the lose the game because he was just able to macro up another deathball and run me over with reinforcing warp ins. It's pretty bullshit that is Terran loses 1 engagement the game is instantly over but if Protoss loses an engagement they can just warp in to instantly defend.
This is why Warp gate is the real problem in TvP. I have no problem with Protoss having a better late game army since that is the way they are designed but warp gate it total fucking bullshit.
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it has been so long since a protoss has won any major tournaments...
terran is still winning, the numbers show nearly 50\50 results in pvt
I just can't believe all this QQ
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I feel like the more Blizzard makes statement, the more clueless about their game they look.
The way the match ups TvP and ZvP are played is so boring and arguably imbalanced.
I dont feel like this is the kind of game we want as a community.
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On May 16 2012 02:17 NumbReflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference? There really is none. It's just how the race is designed to play. They are meant to push the mid game and deny the other races from getting too far ahead. Terran is very limited by creativity in the designs of the builds because it seems as if most of the units they make are just supporting the marines and marauders. When other races get key components to their armies with non-support t2 and t3, Terran falls too far behind to have much of a chance.
There is no ticking time bomb on Terran... Once Hive hits you have the ability to slowly tech out of bio and into mech... In addition you also have numerous science vessels that help TREMENDOUSLY to denying that Hive tech by irradiating defilers, ultras, lurkers, etc. In TvP SCII, we have nothing except ghosts, which are not even t3.
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On May 16 2012 05:06 StriderDoom wrote:
it has been so long since a protoss has won any major tournaments...
terran is still winning, the numbers show nearly 50\50 results in pvt
I just can't believe all this QQ Thats because the pros do the only thing they can to win which is cheese as much as possible. The only pro games I ever see Terran win are 3 rax scv all ins, or some variation of the 1-1-1/ 2-2-2. Most players like me just play the game to have fun not to cheese every game. It gets so frustrating when you literally cannot win macro games against Toss no matter what you do unless you do some retarded cheesy build. And if you do win a normal game against Toss it's usuallt because they we're too greedy or they just played horribly.
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On May 16 2012 05:14 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 05:06 StriderDoom wrote:
it has been so long since a protoss has won any major tournaments...
terran is still winning, the numbers show nearly 50\50 results in pvt
I just can't believe all this QQ Thats because the pros do the only thing they can to win which is cheese as much as possible. The only pro games I ever see Terran win are 3 rax scv all ins, or some variation of the 1-1-1/ 2-2-2. Most players like me just play the game to have fun not to cheese every game. It gets so frustrating when you literally cannot win macro games against Toss no matter what you do unless you do some retarded cheesy build. And if you do win a normal game against Toss it's usuallt because they we're too greedy or they just played horribly.
Play to win
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I still would like a well controlled built in mech army to destory a protoss. Only in dreams.
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On May 16 2012 04:51 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess Have you ever considered changing to a race more suited to your playstyle?
I've tried both protoss and zerg. Zerg would probably be what I would do best with, but I enjoy terran too much to change races. Figuring out a matchup increases your enjoyment out of it, even if it takes a long long time and alot of crushing defeats that you had everything in the game possible to win with. (I.e: multiple more expos, better upgrades, bigger army etc etc etc...)
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EPT
