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On May 16 2012 05:38 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 05:01 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it) 1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc... 2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum. 3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out. 4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines. 5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control. 6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans. 7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech) Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces. I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess  Thanks for the advice man! Hopefully I won't rage as much following this advice. There have been times where I DESTROYED a Protoss deathball with superior micro and after the battle I still had like 30 marines and 8 marauders plus medivacs. But I made the mistake of trying to stim my already injured bio into his natural to end the game. But he just warped in like 20 chargelots and had a random HT at his base he didnt use in the engagement and my bio foce instantly got wrecked. And even though I won the 200/200 engagement decisively I went on the lose the game because he was just able to macro up another deathball and run me over with reinforcing warp ins. It's pretty bullshit that is Terran loses 1 engagement the game is instantly over but if Protoss loses an engagement they can just warp in to instantly defend. This is why Warp gate is the real problem in TvP. I have no problem with Protoss having a better late game army since that is the way they are designed but warp gate it total fucking bullshit. It's insanely easy to think "now is the time" in PvT, you'll win an engagement with like 30 supply left over and you think "ok now we kill him" becaues well that's what happens in TvZ and TvT and used to happen in PvT tbh. You need to just take out his ability to remax, becuase you're going to "have" to fight 2-3 200/200 or something close to that battles before you're going to win. Once you're able to build your strategies/macro/micro all that jazz around this philosphy you'll be able to at least do better in macro-orientated matchups.
the problem is, if as a terran you lose 1 of the several 200/200 battles, you lose the game.
Basically you can't win the game with any one battle as terran, but you certainly can lose it, which is what is really frustrating vs P.
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On May 16 2012 10:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:14 xOny wrote:On May 16 2012 09:42 monKeygee wrote:
As long as Terran is aggressive in the early-mid game, Protoss won't have the advantage; that's the message I'm picking up. While it makes sense and is, in a sense, "balanced," I still would like to see that in TvP, players have the option to play emphasize their macro and still have a fair late-game. I've played high master terrans that don't really attack me at all, and they just get to late game with mass orbital/ low scv count, defensive planetaries, and 20 ghosts/ 15+ vikings/ a +3+3 bio army and then just roll me late game esp on maps like Daybreak where you can't attack if they have defensive planetaries. As long as they don't take hits from mass colossus which is easy if you have upgraded vikings, and 20 ghosts with cloak, you can very easily handle any maxxed protoss composition with sufficient micro. this whole "terrans cant handle protoss late game fundamentally" is a myth created by <high master terrans to help their bruised ego's deal with the fact they got outplayed in a long game. Except every professional player including Protoss players and Flash himself disagree you with about late game PvT, and suggest that it is grossly imbalanced in the favor of Protoss which it is. The only one with the buised ego is you, because you can't accept that people qualified to make opinions all agree that it's imbalanced. It must hurt your ego so much, because Protoss also requires significantly lower APM too.
"Except every professional player".. uh what? I can name countless pro's who are reasonable/ don't want attention and agree that the matchup isn't broken late game. Koreans always say "X race is OP", it's a sarcastic thing in the KR SC culture. MC always said terran was OP, but that didn't mean I went to forums to complain all day about Terran when protoss had a 40% w/r in the matchup for a year.
I gave an intelligent opinion in my previous post based off of hundreds of high master games, and you come at me with "Protoss also requires significantly lower APM too".. what a joke. I play Protoss and Terran and my APM is about the same with each (210+ on drop.sc). You can't provide a legitimate argument so you go for a cheapspot like "derp protoss easy apm" which is actually pathetic.
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So how exactly does the "ticking time bomb" complaint only apply to TvP? Isn't PvZ the same way? Protoss has to, HAS TO hit Zerg before their multi-base econ overruns the FFE 2base of the toss. Terran has to kill hurt the Protoss before they macro up a huge army.
Yet toss aren't all over TL qq'ing, they accept that they can't just sit on their asses while zerg drones all to hell. Terran can't sit on their ass while toss gets up to their immobile but tough deathball. What's the difference?
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On May 16 2012 10:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:14 xOny wrote:On May 16 2012 09:42 monKeygee wrote:
As long as Terran is aggressive in the early-mid game, Protoss won't have the advantage; that's the message I'm picking up. While it makes sense and is, in a sense, "balanced," I still would like to see that in TvP, players have the option to play emphasize their macro and still have a fair late-game. I've played high master terrans that don't really attack me at all, and they just get to late game with mass orbital/ low scv count, defensive planetaries, and 20 ghosts/ 15+ vikings/ a +3+3 bio army and then just roll me late game esp on maps like Daybreak where you can't attack if they have defensive planetaries. As long as they don't take hits from mass colossus which is easy if you have upgraded vikings, and 20 ghosts with cloak, you can very easily handle any maxxed protoss composition with sufficient micro. this whole "terrans cant handle protoss late game fundamentally" is a myth created by <high master terrans to help their bruised ego's deal with the fact they got outplayed in a long game. Except every professional player including Protoss players and Flash himself disagree you with about late game PvT, and suggest that it is grossly imbalanced in the favor of Protoss which it is. The only one with the buised ego is you, because you can't accept that people qualified to make opinions all agree that it's imbalanced. It must hurt your ego so much, because Protoss also requires significantly lower APM too.
Care to share some replays on the strategies mentioned above? This might just open up we terrans' minds abit. We (well especially me) really need some inspiration now on TvP late game. I watch GSL frequently but it's useless. Most of the Terran's victories were achieved before 16 minutes mark.
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On May 16 2012 10:41 gengka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 16 2012 10:14 xOny wrote:On May 16 2012 09:42 monKeygee wrote:
As long as Terran is aggressive in the early-mid game, Protoss won't have the advantage; that's the message I'm picking up. While it makes sense and is, in a sense, "balanced," I still would like to see that in TvP, players have the option to play emphasize their macro and still have a fair late-game. I've played high master terrans that don't really attack me at all, and they just get to late game with mass orbital/ low scv count, defensive planetaries, and 20 ghosts/ 15+ vikings/ a +3+3 bio army and then just roll me late game esp on maps like Daybreak where you can't attack if they have defensive planetaries. As long as they don't take hits from mass colossus which is easy if you have upgraded vikings, and 20 ghosts with cloak, you can very easily handle any maxxed protoss composition with sufficient micro. this whole "terrans cant handle protoss late game fundamentally" is a myth created by <high master terrans to help their bruised ego's deal with the fact they got outplayed in a long game. Except every professional player including Protoss players and Flash himself disagree you with about late game PvT, and suggest that it is grossly imbalanced in the favor of Protoss which it is. The only one with the buised ego is you, because you can't accept that people qualified to make opinions all agree that it's imbalanced. It must hurt your ego so much, because Protoss also requires significantly lower APM too. Care to share some replays on the strategies mentioned above? This might just open up we terrans' minds abit. We (well especially me) really need some inspiration now on TvP late game. I watch GSL frequently but it's useless. Most of the Terran's victories were achieved before 16 minutes mark.
Macro builds like 3 OC die to blink timings, 6gates, 3gate voidray, and any manner of cliff-circumventing all-in(besides normal 4gate). I used to do them a lot but consistently died to these all-in's, so I stopped.
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On May 16 2012 10:38 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
So how exactly does the "ticking time bomb" complaint only apply to TvP? Isn't PvZ the same way? Protoss has to, HAS TO hit Zerg before their multi-base econ overruns the FFE 2base of the toss. Terran has to kill hurt the Protoss before they macro up a huge army.
Yet toss aren't all over TL qq'ing, they accept that they can't just sit on their asses while zerg drones all to hell. Terran can't sit on their ass while toss gets up to their immobile but tough deathball. What's the difference?
Protosses in Korea have been holding 3rd bases vs roach maxes for the last month. Really, the only players losing to 11 minutes roaches are bad players with bad forcefields, bad builds, and bad chronoboost usage. Also, Zerg is a completely different case because they are ways to slow down Zerg economy by feigning pressure and forcing intelligent players to not drone, which doesn't commit anything. With Protoss, the only way to slow down their economy is to inflict direct damage, which relies on Protoss not reacting correctly.
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On May 16 2012 10:23 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 05:38 Talack wrote:On May 16 2012 05:01 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it) 1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc... 2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum. 3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out. 4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines. 5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control. 6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans. 7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech) Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces. I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess Thanks for the advice man! Hopefully I won't rage as much following this advice. There have been times where I DESTROYED a Protoss deathball with superior micro and after the battle I still had like 30 marines and 8 marauders plus medivacs. But I made the mistake of trying to stim my already injured bio into his natural to end the game. But he just warped in like 20 chargelots and had a random HT at his base he didnt use in the engagement and my bio foce instantly got wrecked. And even though I won the 200/200 engagement decisively I went on the lose the game because he was just able to macro up another deathball and run me over with reinforcing warp ins. It's pretty bullshit that is Terran loses 1 engagement the game is instantly over but if Protoss loses an engagement they can just warp in to instantly defend. This is why Warp gate is the real problem in TvP. I have no problem with Protoss having a better late game army since that is the way they are designed but warp gate it total fucking bullshit. It's insanely easy to think "now is the time" in PvT, you'll win an engagement with like 30 supply left over and you think "ok now we kill him" becaues well that's what happens in TvZ and TvT and used to happen in PvT tbh. You need to just take out his ability to remax, becuase you're going to "have" to fight 2-3 200/200 or something close to that battles before you're going to win. Once you're able to build your strategies/macro/micro all that jazz around this philosphy you'll be able to at least do better in macro-orientated matchups. the problem is, if as a terran you lose 1 of the several 200/200 battles, you lose the game. Basically you can't win the game with any one battle as terran, but you certainly can lose it, which is what is really frustrating vs P.
I disagree. If, as Terran, you keep up the aggression midgame to keep him on at maximum three bases, he's going to have one strong push against your four bases, and then a steady wind-down unless he can pick up a fourth.
After the one big battle, you have a small window of opportunity to snipe the fourth which Protoss generally tries to pick up during this big push. Warp in doesn't allow for Storm (energy charge time) or Colossi, letting your bio units quite easily kite or 1-a over his non-aoe gateway army.
If you can shut down a fourth, he's going to be able to make one more big push (that has a slower buildup due to him being mined out of his main) before he's mined out of two bases and nearly out of a third. Before that, he can't do very much, so you can safely take a fifth or re-secure a fourth if you lost it, and build up more production.
Really, IMO, TvP is focused around denying his fourth. If you can manage that, you severely limit him past the initial 200/200 push. Prior to that point, a deathballing protoss is nearly unable of pushing out against MMM, allowing you to quickly take an economic lead and sack units to slow him down.
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On May 16 2012 10:47 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:38 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
So how exactly does the "ticking time bomb" complaint only apply to TvP? Isn't PvZ the same way? Protoss has to, HAS TO hit Zerg before their multi-base econ overruns the FFE 2base of the toss. Terran has to kill hurt the Protoss before they macro up a huge army.
Yet toss aren't all over TL qq'ing, they accept that they can't just sit on their asses while zerg drones all to hell. Terran can't sit on their ass while toss gets up to their immobile but tough deathball. What's the difference? Protosses in Korea have been holding 3rd bases vs roach maxes for the last month. Really, the only players losing to 11 minutes roaches are bad players with bad forcefields, bad builds, and bad chronoboost usage. Also, Zerg is a completely different case because they are ways to slow down Zerg economy by feigning pressure and forcing intelligent players to not drone, which doesn't commit anything. With Protoss, the only way to slow down their economy is to inflict direct damage, which relies on Protoss not reacting correctly.
Well done. You took 4 words from my post and completely missed the point. My point was not to call roach maxes imba, my point was that toss had problems with it, but solved them themselves instead of demanding a balance change.
And if you multi-prong drop properly, there is no "correct" response for toss. Abuse your mobility. Killing 3 probes and picking up isn't a failure, but staying to get a few more and dying is your own fault. Or, if the toss brings too much back to deal with the drop, kick in the front door. If you pick a toss apart right, you can almost always do damage somewhere. That's why toss struggles so much against good mass muta.
Toss can be picked apart by terran because small numbers of gateway units aren't as good as a medivac or two worth of bio. And if you force an over-commit to the drop response, you gain an advantage in the battle between armies. You just have to do it well. Ergo, if you play well, you can win. Isn't that how it's supposed to be?
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On May 16 2012 09:11 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 07:56 ritzia1 wrote:
I mentioned this in another thread, but I wish they would revert the snipe change and make it so it does less damage to massive units. It wouldn't absolutely fix everything, but at least it gives the option of allowing ghosts to snipe zealots again instead of relying on more of a marine heavy composition that gets demolished by storm/colossus. Ghosts already CAN snipe Zealots. >.> Still going to maintain that nerfing damage from FB to massive units would severely increase the usefulness of T3 Terran units.
I'm quite aware Ghosts can snipe Zealots, but the amount of damage it does is not worth the effort to do and not to mention that +3 attack makes it stronger than an actual snipe. People were using it pre nerf to actually snipe Zealots after emps were launched. My idea was to make it do less damage to massive, but still the 45 damage to anything not massive.
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On May 16 2012 10:38 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
So how exactly does the "ticking time bomb" complaint only apply to TvP? Isn't PvZ the same way? Protoss has to, HAS TO hit Zerg before their multi-base econ overruns the FFE 2base of the toss. Terran has to kill hurt the Protoss before they macro up a huge army.
Yet toss aren't all over TL qq'ing, they accept that they can't just sit on their asses while zerg drones all to hell. Terran can't sit on their ass while toss gets up to their immobile but tough deathball. What's the difference?
That's because Protoss has a late game and Terran doesn't.
On May 16 2012 10:41 gengka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 16 2012 10:14 xOny wrote:On May 16 2012 09:42 monKeygee wrote:
As long as Terran is aggressive in the early-mid game, Protoss won't have the advantage; that's the message I'm picking up. While it makes sense and is, in a sense, "balanced," I still would like to see that in TvP, players have the option to play emphasize their macro and still have a fair late-game. I've played high master terrans that don't really attack me at all, and they just get to late game with mass orbital/ low scv count, defensive planetaries, and 20 ghosts/ 15+ vikings/ a +3+3 bio army and then just roll me late game esp on maps like Daybreak where you can't attack if they have defensive planetaries. As long as they don't take hits from mass colossus which is easy if you have upgraded vikings, and 20 ghosts with cloak, you can very easily handle any maxxed protoss composition with sufficient micro. this whole "terrans cant handle protoss late game fundamentally" is a myth created by <high master terrans to help their bruised ego's deal with the fact they got outplayed in a long game. Except every professional player including Protoss players and Flash himself disagree you with about late game PvT, and suggest that it is grossly imbalanced in the favor of Protoss which it is. The only one with the buised ego is you, because you can't accept that people qualified to make opinions all agree that it's imbalanced. It must hurt your ego so much, because Protoss also requires significantly lower APM too. Care to share some replays on the strategies mentioned above? This might just open up we terrans' minds abit. We (well especially me) really need some inspiration now on TvP late game. I watch GSL frequently but it's useless. Most of the Terran's victories were achieved before 16 minutes mark.
I assume you meant to quote the person I was quoting, and not me?
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On May 16 2012 11:24 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:38 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
So how exactly does the "ticking time bomb" complaint only apply to TvP? Isn't PvZ the same way? Protoss has to, HAS TO hit Zerg before their multi-base econ overruns the FFE 2base of the toss. Terran has to kill hurt the Protoss before they macro up a huge army.
Yet toss aren't all over TL qq'ing, they accept that they can't just sit on their asses while zerg drones all to hell. Terran can't sit on their ass while toss gets up to their immobile but tough deathball. What's the difference? That's because Protoss has a late game and Terran doesn't.
Protoss can't touch properly managed BL/Infestor comps. And before you try to cite vortex, any sort of BL splitting, neural use, or quick target firing w/corruptors stops that cold. Unless the zerg makes a big mistake, that's not viable. To kill it any other way, protoss has to damage zerg enough that that deathball is weakened, same as terran has to damage protoss such that their deathball is weakened.
EDIT: That's not a whine, either. That's just a balance among asymmetric races, and I don't have a problem with it, nor do most protoss.
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On May 16 2012 06:06 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 05:41 aZealot wrote:
Yeah, I really don't get it. I'd rather all this rage was put into finding solutions to "the problem" - if there really is a problem.
Warp gate in TvP is the problem. Late game TvP Protoss is supposed to have a stonger army which is fine and I agree with that. But having a stronger army and be able to reincforce pushes instantly? How is this fair? Add on top of that that the Terran army requires more micro than the Protoss Deathball its pretty rediculous. Terran may have a slight advantage in the mid game But it is certainly is not as big as the advantage Protoss has in the late game. Not even close.
Zerg reinforces better than warpgate with almost ANY unit, not just high tech units which the Protoss can't instantly reproduce but I don't see you arguing against their mechanic. Or maybe you do I just don't know. They also have AOE like fungal. Clearly the problem are Terrans like you, whining instead of getting better.
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According to Blizzard, Terran has a "mid-game advantage" which they are to "press" so that Protoss "can’t necessarily get into the late game at their full potential." I'm interested to know 2 things:
1. What does Blizzard define as Terran's mid-game advantage?
Is it stim, is it medivacs, is it tanks, is it banshees, is it mules, or some combo of units and strategies--what exactly is the mid-game advantage that a Terran inherently has or can create?
2. What does Blizzard define as successful Terran prevention of Protoss reaching their "full potential" late game?
In other words, if the Protoss full potential is a maxed army of about 140 supply, assuming that Protoss is on 3 mining bases with about 60 probes, what supply should a Terran be holding them to by means of the Terran "mid-game advantage"? Is a 120 supply Protoss army not at it's full potential and therefore defeatable by a 140 supply Terran army? Or does Terran have to hold them to under a 100 supply army? Or lower? What is an army supply number that Blizzard would say a Terran should hold a Protoss under in order to nullify the inherently stronger Protoss late-game deathball?
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On May 16 2012 12:45 pOnarreT wrote:
Zerg reinforces better than warpgate with almost ANY unit, not just high tech units which the Protoss can't instantly reproduce but I don't see you arguing against their mechanic. Or maybe you do I just don't know. They also have AOE like fungal. Clearly the problem are Terrans like you, whining instead of getting better.
Since this is a PvT focused thread, your response hardly seems reasonable. Zerg "insta-make-any-unit-combo" is a problem late-game for Terrans, and I'm pretty sure for Protoss to perhaps a lesser extent. But that is not the topic of this thread.
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ive been experimenting with lategame TvP armies and i know it sounds to stupid to say i know the answers when MVP and supernova and mma dont, so i wont say that
i will say I do not know if i know the answers. ill just say i have a theory and you can post about why its wrong and ill listen. Because i know its simply stupid for me to say my answers are right when MVP/supernova/mma havent done it yet
heres what i believe. Through some testing in the unit tester, I think lategame terran can actually defeat the protoss deathball by abusing mules. If terran has 18 SCV's on gas, and a 182 food army, and protoss has 40 probes and a 160 food army, the terran can definitely win.
Also I dont think battlecruisers and mech is weak at all. 3/3 vikings, battlecruisers, with maybe 2 thors, a bunch of hellions and tanks zero bio. Call this the bio-less TvP endgame. What can toss do to beat that? not much especially if the terran is using mules to have a 182food army vs 160food army
as a toss player i will agree that feedback vs thors/BC's is really stupid which is why i suggest a terran have ONE GHOST which can deplete infinity battlecruisers of energy (just have one ghost in the back and make sure to deplete their energy before the fight). But energy on thors is a problem because thors cannot stack and ghosts cannot remove thor energy effectively which is why i suggest only getting 2 thors. If you ONLY get 2 thors in your army, this means with their 7range in order for toss to actually get in and micro off his templars to cast feedback on your 2 thors by the time that happens the entire protoss army will probably already be dead.
The problem with the above idea is it is actually the PROTOSS are the strong ones in the midgame. Because if a terran TRIES to macro up and get 4 bases, defensive posture, and upgraded battlecruisers/mech he will die to the collossi/gateway attack.
In reality i think it is the terran that has the unstoppable lategame in the current build of this game. However it is SO hard to get to, almost impossible, that to my knowledge there has NEVER been a pro GSL game where a terran has actually achieved my lategame bio-less scenario against toss
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On May 16 2012 13:00 roymarthyup wrote:
ive been experimenting with lategame TvP armies and i know it sounds to stupid to say i know the answers when MVP and supernova and mma dont, so i wont say that
i will say I do not know if i know the answers. ill just say i have a theory and you can post about why its wrong and ill listen. Because i know its simply stupid for me to say my answers are right when MVP/supernova/mma havent done it yet
heres what i believe. Through some testing in the unit tester, I think lategame terran can actually defeat the protoss deathball by abusing mules. If terran has 18 SCV's on gas, and a 182 food army, and protoss has 40 probes and a 160 food army, the terran can definitely win.
Also I dont think battlecruisers and mech is weak at all. 3/3 vikings, battlecruisers, with maybe 2 thors, a bunch of hellions and tanks zero bio. Call this the bio-less TvP endgame. What can toss do to beat that? not much especially if the terran is using mules to have a 182food army vs 160food army
as a toss player i will agree that feedback vs thors/BC's is really stupid which is why i suggest a terran have ONE GHOST which can deplete infinity battlecruisers of energy (just have one ghost in the back and make sure to deplete their energy before the fight). But energy on thors is a problem because thors cannot stack and ghosts cannot remove thor energy effectively which is why i suggest only getting 2 thors. If you ONLY get 2 thors in your army, this means with their 7range in order for toss to actually get in and micro off his templars to cast feedback on your 2 thors by the time that happens the entire protoss army will probably already be dead.
The problem with the above idea is it is actually the PROTOSS are the strong ones in the midgame. Because if a terran TRIES to macro up and get 4 bases, defensive posture, and upgraded battlecruisers/mech he will die to the collossi/gateway attack.
In reality i think it is the terran that has the unstoppable lategame in the current build of this game. However it is SO hard to get to, almost impossible, that to my knowledge there has NEVER been a pro GSL game where a terran has actually achieved my lategame bio-less scenario against toss
First off, let me say I think the Terran whining is overblown, so this isn't me agreeing with them. However, what you're describing isn't the answer. The MULE use thing is on the right track IMO, but you will never ever see someone get to that sort of unit composition, because the production setup and cycle time is just awful. Your comment about toss units being mid-game is off because what you describe isn't a late-game comp, it's a fantasy comp. It's no more valid than me advocating a colossus/templar/carrier build. While your thing might be able to kill a deathball, it's so far outside the reasonable bounds of good play from your opponent as to be useless. Now the answer might involve mech or sky terran eventually, but I seriously doubt it will look like what you've described.
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On May 16 2012 13:00 roymarthyup wrote:
ive been experimenting with lategame TvP armies and i know it sounds to stupid to say i know the answers when MVP and supernova and mma dont, so i wont say that
i will say I do not know if i know the answers. ill just say i have a theory and you can post about why its wrong and ill listen. Because i know its simply stupid for me to say my answers are right when MVP/supernova/mma havent done it yet
heres what i believe. Through some testing in the unit tester, I think lategame terran can actually defeat the protoss deathball by abusing mules. If terran has 18 SCV's on gas, and a 182 food army, and protoss has 40 probes and a 160 food army, the terran can definitely win.
Also I dont think battlecruisers and mech is weak at all. 3/3 vikings, battlecruisers, with maybe 2 thors, a bunch of hellions and tanks zero bio. Call this the bio-less TvP endgame. What can toss do to beat that? not much especially if the terran is using mules to have a 182food army vs 160food army
as a toss player i will agree that feedback vs thors/BC's is really stupid which is why i suggest a terran have ONE GHOST which can deplete infinity battlecruisers of energy (just have one ghost in the back and make sure to deplete their energy before the fight). But energy on thors is a problem because thors cannot stack and ghosts cannot remove thor energy effectively which is why i suggest only getting 2 thors. If you ONLY get 2 thors in your army, this means with their 7range in order for toss to actually get in and micro off his templars to cast feedback on your 2 thors by the time that happens the entire protoss army will probably already be dead.
The problem with the above idea is it is actually the PROTOSS are the strong ones in the midgame. Because if a terran TRIES to macro up and get 4 bases, defensive posture, and upgraded battlecruisers/mech he will die to the collossi/gateway attack.
In reality i think it is the terran that has the unstoppable lategame in the current build of this game. However it is SO hard to get to, almost impossible, that to my knowledge there has NEVER been a pro GSL game where a terran has actually achieved my lategame bio-less scenario against toss
The issue with Mech isn't that it loses to Protoss. Mech can vary viably beat a Protoss army. The issue is that Protoss can easily out play that Mech by by passing it. Protoss can very easily use Blink and Collosi and Warp Prisms to simply bypass the mech. And there is nothing you can do about it.
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On May 16 2012 12:45 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 06:06 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 05:41 aZealot wrote:
Yeah, I really don't get it. I'd rather all this rage was put into finding solutions to "the problem" - if there really is a problem.
Warp gate in TvP is the problem. Late game TvP Protoss is supposed to have a stonger army which is fine and I agree with that. But having a stronger army and be able to reincforce pushes instantly? How is this fair? Add on top of that that the Terran army requires more micro than the Protoss Deathball its pretty rediculous. Terran may have a slight advantage in the mid game But it is certainly is not as big as the advantage Protoss has in the late game. Not even close. Zerg reinforces better than warpgate with almost ANY unit, not just high tech units which the Protoss can't instantly reproduce but I don't see you arguing against their mechanic. Or maybe you do I just don't know. They also have AOE like fungal. Clearly the problem are Terrans like you, whining instead of getting better. Where did I whine? I explained how Warp Gate is imbalanced in late game TvP. I do no think Protoss is OP at all I think they are fine except for the fact that warpgate gives them a huge edge versus Terran in late game situations. Zerg is completely fine and TvZ is the best matchup. Zerg can make tons of units at once but only the zergling and Roach can really reinforce incredibly fast. Which are easily defended using hellions and planetaries.
But with Protoss they can reinforce immediately, even faster than Zerglings. And gateway units are much tougher than zerglings and can take out planetaries and expansions easily.
Which means that Terran can never lose a late game engagement or they lose the game. Even if you destroy the protoss army, emp high templars and kill collosi before they can get many shots off you won't have much of an army left because of how strong the late game army is. Meaning you cannot press the issue, you have to wait to heal up, get reinforcements and by then Protoss has a new army just as big as yours.
Protoss wins late game engagement -> Game over.
Terran wins late game engagement -> Slight advantage.
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On May 16 2012 13:14 Boiler Bandsman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 13:00 roymarthyup wrote:
ive been experimenting with lategame TvP armies and i know it sounds to stupid to say i know the answers when MVP and supernova and mma dont, so i wont say that
i will say I do not know if i know the answers. ill just say i have a theory and you can post about why its wrong and ill listen. Because i know its simply stupid for me to say my answers are right when MVP/supernova/mma havent done it yet
heres what i believe. Through some testing in the unit tester, I think lategame terran can actually defeat the protoss deathball by abusing mules. If terran has 18 SCV's on gas, and a 182 food army, and protoss has 40 probes and a 160 food army, the terran can definitely win.
Also I dont think battlecruisers and mech is weak at all. 3/3 vikings, battlecruisers, with maybe 2 thors, a bunch of hellions and tanks zero bio. Call this the bio-less TvP endgame. What can toss do to beat that? not much especially if the terran is using mules to have a 182food army vs 160food army
as a toss player i will agree that feedback vs thors/BC's is really stupid which is why i suggest a terran have ONE GHOST which can deplete infinity battlecruisers of energy (just have one ghost in the back and make sure to deplete their energy before the fight). But energy on thors is a problem because thors cannot stack and ghosts cannot remove thor energy effectively which is why i suggest only getting 2 thors. If you ONLY get 2 thors in your army, this means with their 7range in order for toss to actually get in and micro off his templars to cast feedback on your 2 thors by the time that happens the entire protoss army will probably already be dead.
The problem with the above idea is it is actually the PROTOSS are the strong ones in the midgame. Because if a terran TRIES to macro up and get 4 bases, defensive posture, and upgraded battlecruisers/mech he will die to the collossi/gateway attack.
In reality i think it is the terran that has the unstoppable lategame in the current build of this game. However it is SO hard to get to, almost impossible, that to my knowledge there has NEVER been a pro GSL game where a terran has actually achieved my lategame bio-less scenario against toss First off, let me say I think the Terran whining is overblown, so this isn't me agreeing with them. However, what you're describing isn't the answer. The MULE use thing is on the right track IMO, but you will never ever see someone get to that sort of unit composition, because the production setup and cycle time is just awful. Your comment about toss units being mid-game is off because what you describe isn't a late-game comp, it's a fantasy comp. It's no more valid than me advocating a colossus/templar/carrier build. While your thing might be able to kill a deathball, it's so far outside the reasonable bounds of good play from your opponent as to be useless. Now the answer might involve mech or sky terran eventually, but I seriously doubt it will look like what you've described.
funny thing is im a master toss and many games will win with carriers. carriers beat vikings cost for cost and food for food (Really, test it in the tester) however what im saying its funny here is that as toss i actually get to use my lategame and it feels very viable
i feel so sorry for terran because IVE PLAYED TERRAN some in the master league and it sucks how their lategame is so unviable due to thors and feedback. Battlecruisers are also unviable because to get the bc;s and the ghost you already spend so much gas you die to midgame toss push
as a toss player i 1000000000000000% support the notion of giving thors and battlecruisers either no energy bars or make feedback not work against massive units either way it fixes the problem
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On May 16 2012 10:23 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 05:38 Talack wrote:On May 16 2012 05:01 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it) 1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc... 2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum. 3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out. 4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines. 5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control. 6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans. 7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech) Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces. I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess Thanks for the advice man! Hopefully I won't rage as much following this advice. There have been times where I DESTROYED a Protoss deathball with superior micro and after the battle I still had like 30 marines and 8 marauders plus medivacs. But I made the mistake of trying to stim my already injured bio into his natural to end the game. But he just warped in like 20 chargelots and had a random HT at his base he didnt use in the engagement and my bio foce instantly got wrecked. And even though I won the 200/200 engagement decisively I went on the lose the game because he was just able to macro up another deathball and run me over with reinforcing warp ins. It's pretty bullshit that is Terran loses 1 engagement the game is instantly over but if Protoss loses an engagement they can just warp in to instantly defend. This is why Warp gate is the real problem in TvP. I have no problem with Protoss having a better late game army since that is the way they are designed but warp gate it total fucking bullshit. It's insanely easy to think "now is the time" in PvT, you'll win an engagement with like 30 supply left over and you think "ok now we kill him" becaues well that's what happens in TvZ and TvT and used to happen in PvT tbh. You need to just take out his ability to remax, becuase you're going to "have" to fight 2-3 200/200 or something close to that battles before you're going to win. Once you're able to build your strategies/macro/micro all that jazz around this philosphy you'll be able to at least do better in macro-orientated matchups. the problem is, if as a terran you lose 1 of the several 200/200 battles, you lose the game. Basically you can't win the game with any one battle as terran, but you certainly can lose it, which is what is really frustrating vs P.
False. If you decisively win a battle as Terran with 30-40+ supply of units remaining, you can snipe 2+ of the Protoss' expansions before having to retreat, giving you a huge lead letting you do a follow up push at 200/200 which you can win the game with.
If you lose an engagement, it's not the end of the world if you have planetary fortresses keeping the Protoss from walking straight into your production. This lets you get that extra production round out that you need to defend his attack.
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