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On May 17 2012 20:00 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 19:41 wonderwall wrote:
These kinds of responses by Blizzard are frustrating as they are telling professional players that they are playing the game wrong. This seems counter-intuitive as surely the pro-players should have the best understanding of how the matchup is played. An analogy would be a diamond league zerg telling a grandmaster zerg how he should play ZvP. The guy he's giving advice to is more knowledgeable than himself. It's more like a few random diamond to masters NA players are telling Code S players how to play. Actually, that's exactly what it is.
actually, david kim and matt cooper were both GM random players... i haven't checked matt cooper's in a while, but dayvie hasn't laddered in quite a while ever since they said they were developing HOTS
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On May 18 2012 12:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 12:34 Chaggi wrote:On May 18 2012 10:47 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:37 Greenei wrote:On May 18 2012 10:28 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn.. Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction. Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong. The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc. As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months... You know why that is? Before any changes in the direction of mech could be done Blizz decided to nerf Thors for no reason except Thorzain. Blizzard doesn't want T to do anything but what we are doing. Actually, they buffed thors, thorzain showed how that buff could be exploited and then they reverted the buff. Personally I think it's worth re-buffing thors and seeing if the improved immortal range is enough to deal with Thorzain's exploitation of thors in the early game. I 'feel' that it is, but you don't know until you see Pro's try it. Hey, interesting question, if Yamoto cannon was removed entirely along with BC energy, would anyone care? Same for thor, I don't think I've seen anyone research 250mm strike cannons in a pro match, never mind using it... Yamato is really important in TvT 250mm Strike Cannon is also useful, I think it's underused. The stun is great. It was down right messed up when there was no mana cost to it. It was the auto kill 1 immortal ability and then like your damage 60, range 7 unit go nuts with its massive marine support. And every thor got to use it, so you needed 2 immortals per thor. It was mostly messed up because it really made for a rough 2 base all in from terran. A little 2 base death ball. If anything, they should have just removed the ability and mana. Terran needs a back bone unit that doesn't get messed up by storms.
Downright unbiased comment. Salute. Extra applause on the "Terran needs a back bone unit that doesn't get messed up by storms."
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well i would be fine with a energy removal if strike canon gets removed.
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On May 18 2012 12:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 12:34 Chaggi wrote:On May 18 2012 10:47 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:37 Greenei wrote:On May 18 2012 10:28 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn.. Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction. Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong. The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc. As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months... You know why that is? Before any changes in the direction of mech could be done Blizz decided to nerf Thors for no reason except Thorzain. Blizzard doesn't want T to do anything but what we are doing. Actually, they buffed thors, thorzain showed how that buff could be exploited and then they reverted the buff. Personally I think it's worth re-buffing thors and seeing if the improved immortal range is enough to deal with Thorzain's exploitation of thors in the early game. I 'feel' that it is, but you don't know until you see Pro's try it. Hey, interesting question, if Yamoto cannon was removed entirely along with BC energy, would anyone care? Same for thor, I don't think I've seen anyone research 250mm strike cannons in a pro match, never mind using it... Yamato is really important in TvT 250mm Strike Cannon is also useful, I think it's underused. The stun is great. It was down right messed up when there was no mana cost to it. It was the auto kill 1 immortal ability and then like your damage 60, range 7 unit go nuts with its massive marine support. And every thor got to use it, so you needed 2 immortals per thor. It was mostly messed up because it really made for a rough 2 base all in from terran. A little 2 base death ball. If anything, they should have just removed the ability and mana. Terran needs a back bone unit that doesn't get messed up by storms.
no it wasnt try 7thors vs 10immortals, 10 immortals wins every time agains, thors with 250mm cannon.
Or you can try 25thors vs 30 immortals(30+pop more thors than immortals), and see how it goes for thors 
Btw according to your logic its messed up that terran actually need to counter colosus with vikings, with about 3 vikings per 1 collosus(since according to you, needing to build counter unit to thor is imbalanced).
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The ability to switch between templar/colossus and also use them both at the same time is really annoying and too strong imo. It's also stupid that zerg and toss both get stronger the longer the game goes on, and terran gets weaker.
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On May 19 2012 06:09 IMoperator wrote:
The ability to switch between templar/colossus and also use them both at the same time is really annoying and too strong imo. It's also stupid that zerg and toss both get stronger the longer the game goes on, and terran gets weaker.
Terran gets stronger, too. Macro Orbitals let you have a bigger maxed army, Thors and Tanks are amazing units in TvZ late-game if you get a lot of them, similar to Ghosts and Vikings in TvP. There are also Planetary Fortress fortifications that you can make to split the map and gain a huge defenders advantage, as well as sensor towers to shut down harassment.
I love Terran. So Robust. :D
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On May 19 2012 06:11 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 06:09 IMoperator wrote:
The ability to switch between templar/colossus and also use them both at the same time is really annoying and too strong imo. It's also stupid that zerg and toss both get stronger the longer the game goes on, and terran gets weaker. Terran gets stronger, too. Macro Orbitals let you have a bigger maxed army, Thors and Tanks are amazing units in TvZ late-game if you get a lot of them, similar to Ghosts and Vikings in TvP. There are also Planetary Fortress fortifications that you can make to split the map and gain a huge defenders advantage, as well as sensor towers to shut down harassment. I love Terran. So Robust. :D
Macro orbitals are also 550 each, and it takes a lot of them to actually get enough mules to support sacrificing scvs. Al
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On May 19 2012 06:11 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 06:09 IMoperator wrote:
The ability to switch between templar/colossus and also use them both at the same time is really annoying and too strong imo. It's also stupid that zerg and toss both get stronger the longer the game goes on, and terran gets weaker. Terran gets stronger, too. Macro Orbitals let you have a bigger maxed army, Thors and Tanks are amazing units in TvZ late-game if you get a lot of them, similar to Ghosts and Vikings in TvP. There are also Planetary Fortress fortifications that you can make to split the map and gain a huge defenders advantage, as well as sensor towers to shut down harassment. I love Terran. So Robust. :D
Macro orbitals are also 550 each, and it takes a lot of them to actually get enough mules to support sacrificing scvs. Also, if you lose one battle you basically lost the game if they decide to keep attacking because of warp ins.
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On May 19 2012 06:18 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 06:11 Fencer710 wrote:On May 19 2012 06:09 IMoperator wrote:
The ability to switch between templar/colossus and also use them both at the same time is really annoying and too strong imo. It's also stupid that zerg and toss both get stronger the longer the game goes on, and terran gets weaker. Terran gets stronger, too. Macro Orbitals let you have a bigger maxed army, Thors and Tanks are amazing units in TvZ late-game if you get a lot of them, similar to Ghosts and Vikings in TvP. There are also Planetary Fortress fortifications that you can make to split the map and gain a huge defenders advantage, as well as sensor towers to shut down harassment. I love Terran. So Robust. :D Macro orbitals are also 550 each, and it takes a lot of them to actually get enough mules to support sacrificing scvs. Also, if you lose one battle you basically lost the game if they decide to keep attacking because of warp ins.
That's what PF's are for: Defender's Advantage, and to stall so you can get enough units up to defend his push without taking too much damage.
100 page celebration!!
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On May 18 2012 10:27 Solo Terran wrote:
I watched Kawaii Rices Stream last night and he would outplay his Protoss oppoonents so hard, he would get upgrade leads he would get enough vikings for Collosi he would get enough Ghosts. Then he would outmicro the crap out of the Protoss deathball and win the engagements clearly. But no matter how hard you crush a protoss deathball you cannot push your advantage.
So this Protoss gets wrecked, warps in 20 chargelots at his base, Kawaii starts to push but scans ahead and sees that Protoss already has enough to kill his half stimmed bio ball. So he backs up, takes a 4th base (it was 3 base v 3 base antiga cross) re macros an army and then Protoss remaxes on Zealot Archon HT and Kawaii has like 8 useless vikings, but he still hits good emp's and micros well but his army just gets wrecked by Zealot Archon. And then even though he had an extra base and tons of Barracks with reactors it didnt even matter. Protoss just kills his 4th planetary, warps in reinforcemnts and goes on to win the game easily.
How is it fair that Protoss can lose several engagements but if Terran loses 1 they lose the game. And considering Protoss has the stronger army to begin with it's such an enormous advantage for Protoss.
Get rid of Warp Gate in HoTS since it is too late to take out warp gate in WoL. It single handidly breaks TvP lategame and ruins PvP. Give them more options to deal with Zerg.
Yup one single mechanic that neverm attered before is somehow breaking PvT now. Terrans would steamroll over protoss even when they had warpgate. Protoss evolved and figured out how to beat the same Terran srats that terran has yet to move off of. How bout Terran evolves as Protoss has and actually figure out how to win rather then pull an IdrA and claim something is unwinable even hough they don't evolve and just stagnate. Warpgate didnt matter last year when Terran was winning everything but now that they aren't it's all a sudden this huge problem riiiight.
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On May 19 2012 06:51 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:27 Solo Terran wrote:
I watched Kawaii Rices Stream last night and he would outplay his Protoss oppoonents so hard, he would get upgrade leads he would get enough vikings for Collosi he would get enough Ghosts. Then he would outmicro the crap out of the Protoss deathball and win the engagements clearly. But no matter how hard you crush a protoss deathball you cannot push your advantage.
So this Protoss gets wrecked, warps in 20 chargelots at his base, Kawaii starts to push but scans ahead and sees that Protoss already has enough to kill his half stimmed bio ball. So he backs up, takes a 4th base (it was 3 base v 3 base antiga cross) re macros an army and then Protoss remaxes on Zealot Archon HT and Kawaii has like 8 useless vikings, but he still hits good emp's and micros well but his army just gets wrecked by Zealot Archon. And then even though he had an extra base and tons of Barracks with reactors it didnt even matter. Protoss just kills his 4th planetary, warps in reinforcemnts and goes on to win the game easily.
How is it fair that Protoss can lose several engagements but if Terran loses 1 they lose the game. And considering Protoss has the stronger army to begin with it's such an enormous advantage for Protoss.
Get rid of Warp Gate in HoTS since it is too late to take out warp gate in WoL. It single handidly breaks TvP lategame and ruins PvP. Give them more options to deal with Zerg. Yup one single mechanic that neverm attered before is somehow breaking PvT now. Terrans would steamroll over protoss even when they had warpgate. Protoss evolved and figured out how to beat the same Terran srats that terran has yet to move off of. How bout Terran evolves as Protoss has and actually figure out how to win rather then pull an IdrA and claim something is unwinable even hough they don't evolve and just stagnate. Warpgate didnt matter last year when Terran was winning everything but now that they aren't it's all a sudden this huge problem riiiight.
Wtf, how did protoss ever evolve? The only reason terrans were winning last year were because of EMP's (which were subsequently nerfed) and 1/1/1 (also nerfed). Protoss didn't evolve shit.
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On May 19 2012 07:06 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 06:51 Catatonic wrote:On May 18 2012 10:27 Solo Terran wrote:
I watched Kawaii Rices Stream last night and he would outplay his Protoss oppoonents so hard, he would get upgrade leads he would get enough vikings for Collosi he would get enough Ghosts. Then he would outmicro the crap out of the Protoss deathball and win the engagements clearly. But no matter how hard you crush a protoss deathball you cannot push your advantage.
So this Protoss gets wrecked, warps in 20 chargelots at his base, Kawaii starts to push but scans ahead and sees that Protoss already has enough to kill his half stimmed bio ball. So he backs up, takes a 4th base (it was 3 base v 3 base antiga cross) re macros an army and then Protoss remaxes on Zealot Archon HT and Kawaii has like 8 useless vikings, but he still hits good emp's and micros well but his army just gets wrecked by Zealot Archon. And then even though he had an extra base and tons of Barracks with reactors it didnt even matter. Protoss just kills his 4th planetary, warps in reinforcemnts and goes on to win the game easily.
How is it fair that Protoss can lose several engagements but if Terran loses 1 they lose the game. And considering Protoss has the stronger army to begin with it's such an enormous advantage for Protoss.
Get rid of Warp Gate in HoTS since it is too late to take out warp gate in WoL. It single handidly breaks TvP lategame and ruins PvP. Give them more options to deal with Zerg. Yup one single mechanic that neverm attered before is somehow breaking PvT now. Terrans would steamroll over protoss even when they had warpgate. Protoss evolved and figured out how to beat the same Terran srats that terran has yet to move off of. How bout Terran evolves as Protoss has and actually figure out how to win rather then pull an IdrA and claim something is unwinable even hough they don't evolve and just stagnate. Warpgate didnt matter last year when Terran was winning everything but now that they aren't it's all a sudden this huge problem riiiight. Wtf, how did protoss ever evolve? The only reason terrans were winning last year were because of EMP's (which were subsequently nerfed) and 1/1/1 (also nerfed). Protoss didn't evolve shit.
Actually, according to Artosis, Protoss has evolved a lot since 2011. Last year, every protoss would either 4 gate or rush to collosi. These days, protoss would often do double forge, charge first--->storm--->collosi, a build popularized by Parting.
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They are getting double forge because blizzard lowered the cost for upgrades....
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On May 19 2012 07:35 FinalForm wrote:
They are getting double forge because blizzard lowered the cost for upgrades....
They barely lowered the costs of the upgrades, and that only starts when protoss is starting their 2-2 upgrades where they save a net 100 minerals and 100 gas. You make it sound like they're paying for a whole extra colossus when they can barely afford a sentry. This is not the straw that is breaking the camel's back in this matchup.
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On May 19 2012 07:06 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 06:51 Catatonic wrote:On May 18 2012 10:27 Solo Terran wrote:
I watched Kawaii Rices Stream last night and he would outplay his Protoss oppoonents so hard, he would get upgrade leads he would get enough vikings for Collosi he would get enough Ghosts. Then he would outmicro the crap out of the Protoss deathball and win the engagements clearly. But no matter how hard you crush a protoss deathball you cannot push your advantage.
So this Protoss gets wrecked, warps in 20 chargelots at his base, Kawaii starts to push but scans ahead and sees that Protoss already has enough to kill his half stimmed bio ball. So he backs up, takes a 4th base (it was 3 base v 3 base antiga cross) re macros an army and then Protoss remaxes on Zealot Archon HT and Kawaii has like 8 useless vikings, but he still hits good emp's and micros well but his army just gets wrecked by Zealot Archon. And then even though he had an extra base and tons of Barracks with reactors it didnt even matter. Protoss just kills his 4th planetary, warps in reinforcemnts and goes on to win the game easily.
How is it fair that Protoss can lose several engagements but if Terran loses 1 they lose the game. And considering Protoss has the stronger army to begin with it's such an enormous advantage for Protoss.
Get rid of Warp Gate in HoTS since it is too late to take out warp gate in WoL. It single handidly breaks TvP lategame and ruins PvP. Give them more options to deal with Zerg. Yup one single mechanic that neverm attered before is somehow breaking PvT now. Terrans would steamroll over protoss even when they had warpgate. Protoss evolved and figured out how to beat the same Terran srats that terran has yet to move off of. How bout Terran evolves as Protoss has and actually figure out how to win rather then pull an IdrA and claim something is unwinable even hough they don't evolve and just stagnate. Warpgate didnt matter last year when Terran was winning everything but now that they aren't it's all a sudden this huge problem riiiight. Wtf, how did protoss ever evolve? The only reason terrans were winning last year were because of EMP's (which were subsequently nerfed) and 1/1/1 (also nerfed). Protoss didn't evolve shit.
1/1/1 wasn't nerfed. Immortals were buffed, but PvT is probably the matchup least affected by that buff. Truthfully, 1/1/1 still works, but a combination of long rush distances on current maps and Protoss players becoming more comfortable with defending against it means that using it every single game isn't that good anymore.
And frankly, the TvP matchup as a whole hasn't evolved a whole lot strategically. You see more double upgrading and midgames without colossi, but at it's core, the matchup plays out the same way it did back in 2010, just with better execution.
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Seems like terran need to be able to produce units faster in late game. Could be like a 300/300 upgrade to reduce build time of everything by 5-10 secs kinda how when u warp in it takes 5 seconds less not counting the warp in animation.
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On May 19 2012 07:35 FinalForm wrote:
They are getting double forge because blizzard lowered the cost for upgrades....
Hahahahaha... you're funny.
The upgrade change made literally no difference. The cost difference for getting 2-2 AND 3-3 is about equal to a grand total of... a stalker and a sentry.
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On May 18 2012 12:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 20:00 Ktk wrote:On May 17 2012 19:41 wonderwall wrote:
These kinds of responses by Blizzard are frustrating as they are telling professional players that they are playing the game wrong. This seems counter-intuitive as surely the pro-players should have the best understanding of how the matchup is played. An analogy would be a diamond league zerg telling a grandmaster zerg how he should play ZvP. The guy he's giving advice to is more knowledgeable than himself. It's more like a few random diamond to masters NA players are telling Code S players how to play. Actually, that's exactly what it is. actually, david kim and matt cooper were both GM random players... i haven't checked matt cooper's in a while, but dayvie hasn't laddered in quite a while ever since they said they were developing HOTS
David Kim random GM ?
Screeshoot, proof, or it didn't happen.
Besides, they're developping HoTS since the release of Starcraft 2 WoL.
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On May 20 2012 00:26 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 12:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 17 2012 20:00 Ktk wrote:On May 17 2012 19:41 wonderwall wrote:
These kinds of responses by Blizzard are frustrating as they are telling professional players that they are playing the game wrong. This seems counter-intuitive as surely the pro-players should have the best understanding of how the matchup is played. An analogy would be a diamond league zerg telling a grandmaster zerg how he should play ZvP. The guy he's giving advice to is more knowledgeable than himself. It's more like a few random diamond to masters NA players are telling Code S players how to play. Actually, that's exactly what it is. actually, david kim and matt cooper were both GM random players... i haven't checked matt cooper's in a while, but dayvie hasn't laddered in quite a while ever since they said they were developing HOTS David Kim random GM ? Screeshoot, proof, or it didn't happen. Besides, they're developping HoTS since the release of Starcraft 2 WoL.
It is pretty well know that Davy had a random gm account for several seasons, go find the pic yourself...
And btw is pretty sad to see that "the trademark build" with 100 win% for mvp this season was a 5 min all in that can be easily hide by T, and may look like an expnasion build. Imho, this is way more important to adress for blizz than any other balance shit right now.
The P lategame is not the issue here. The entire match up, both sides, is fked up.
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On May 20 2012 00:38 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 00:26 SiroKO wrote:On May 18 2012 12:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 17 2012 20:00 Ktk wrote:On May 17 2012 19:41 wonderwall wrote:
These kinds of responses by Blizzard are frustrating as they are telling professional players that they are playing the game wrong. This seems counter-intuitive as surely the pro-players should have the best understanding of how the matchup is played. An analogy would be a diamond league zerg telling a grandmaster zerg how he should play ZvP. The guy he's giving advice to is more knowledgeable than himself. It's more like a few random diamond to masters NA players are telling Code S players how to play. Actually, that's exactly what it is. actually, david kim and matt cooper were both GM random players... i haven't checked matt cooper's in a while, but dayvie hasn't laddered in quite a while ever since they said they were developing HOTS David Kim random GM ? Screeshoot, proof, or it didn't happen. Besides, they're developping HoTS since the release of Starcraft 2 WoL. It is pretty well know that Davy had a random gm account for several seasons, go find the pic yourself... And btw is pretty sad to see that "the trademark build" with 100 win% for mvp this season was a 5 min all in that can be easily hide by T, and may look like an expnasion build. Imho, this is way more important to adress for blizz than any other balance shit right now. The P lategame is not the issue here. The entire match up, both sides, is fked up.
I understand to some extend the complains that Protoss might have a small advantage when it gets to early late game. It seems to me that Terran really has to play close to perfection in terms of unit control and engagements,but there are players which show that with good usage of Scan and Ghosts for instance and by picking battles smartly, Terran is by no means without a chance in late TvP.
You may complain that this "one mistake or you lose"-thing is bad design, but to speak from the Protoss perspective this is pretty much what Protoss had to endure for a long time and still has to when it comes to early and mid game.
How many games did I see where a Protoss lost just because one force field was out of place? How many exciting games just went completely in a Z's favour because a Protoss player messed up blocking a Zergling run-by?
As Naniwa put it some time ago: "Protoss is not necessarily weak, but very fragile." In other terms: If your play is perfect, you win as Protoss. But one small mistake may cost you the game.
Without a doubt Terran is the most forgiving race where comebacks are actually very well possible. So...What is so wrong about putting Terran late game in a position where Zs and Ps are early and mid game: A situation where a small mistake may cost you the game?
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EPT
