On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote: Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far).
They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo.
Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy?
I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game.
did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon.please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx.
Same applies for you, battlecruisers tend to clump up way more than broodlords because they aren't a siege unit with 9.5 range, splitting is ineffective, just allows for the protoss to focus down one at a time, because unlike broodlords, the rest of the bcs won't be able to capitalize because they don't have nearly the same range(tho MVP could've EMPed the mothership), kthx .
On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote: Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far).
They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo.
Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy?
I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game.
did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon. please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx.
your entire post is trash. MVP wasn't surely going to win that game if he split. Squirtle had a massive bank whereas MVP had none. What dumb assumptions and facts did I get wrong? KKTHX
On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote: Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far).
They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo.
Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy?
I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game.
did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon. please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx.
Let me split my BCs so that 75% of them are not firing. Sounds like a really good solution right? His only real mistake was not EMPing that Mothership.
I don't think that not taking a fast third is a bad idea. I been seeing a lot of pro t streams that opt for a delayed third, like 3 rax starport, then +2 rax, then expand, and I think it's more of preference and style rather than right versus wrong.
Yes, the games from PL are not indicative of balance, but I still think they do say at least something about which races are easier to play/get a grip on. It's a random (I'd say) sample of players who have good mechanics and a basic understanding of the game, and you can see what kinds of problems they're having.
To say that terran could have gone 1/1/1 and probably picked up a few more games is possibly true (although it will never be proven and anyone who thinks it would have won more games outright must feel it is unbalanced in some sense) but the same could be said of a 6 gate, 8 gate, max roach push, etc. Really, they're besides the point.
In scenarios that players choose to play more macro oriented builds, terrans are struggling a bit. Aside from lizzy, I don't find the protosses to be severely outplaying their opponents. They're similar to what you'd see on the ladder
On May 21 2012 08:05 IshinShishi wrote: My fear is that Flash will end up switching races, I doubt he is happy with the current state of random code B protoss being the ace.
Flash is already been playing Protoss on the korean server.
On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote: Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far).
They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo.
Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy?
?Terran that played Jangbi took his third before his 2nd and third rax(and Jangbi didn't punish him for that, killed him in the late game), others took it at a reasonable time. Effort won because he executed like a code S player(macro and micro wise), in fact, he executed that build way better than July ever did. Isn't PvZ's current meta greatly reliant on timings?How does doing something expected have anything to do with being clever?And how were the PvTs different from what we currently see?Everyone's starting to learn the game at around the same time, they should all have flaws in their gameplay , yet all toss players won, and very handily at that, what strategy they chose shouldn't matter really.
And if Effort's execution was somehow "Code S level", then so was the execution of that Protoss who 2 base all-ind Jaedong, the game looked very similar to Genius vs Bbongbbong in the third round of Code A. The point I'm trying to make is that timing attacks typically require a lot more experience to defend, than to execute. So, effort kills Flash with a timing, a bunch of Protosses kill Zergs with timings, and so forth. If the Zergs decided to execute a Stephano style roach max, and if the Terrans did a 1/1/1 instead of macroing, they'd have picked up a bunch of easy wins.
The only games standing out from this, and not having a bunch of nonsense like bio stimming up a ramp against FFs, or that hero vs Barracks game, were Classic vs Flying and the Jangbi game. Classic in general played quite well, and lost because he had over 80 scvs while maxed out. And Iris walked up a ramp with pure marine/medivac vs Colossi and Forcefields, and lost over 1k minerals worth of marines almost instantly.
Protoss is probably easier to pick up for a new player, but the Protosses did seem to have a slightly better grasp on the dynamics of their relevant matchups (especially visible in the PvZs), and also got lucky, that their opponents didn't exploit the weaknesses in their play. I think it'll normalize in a few weeks, if they're still winning everything then, I'll start worrying too.
On an unrelated note, if you think PvT lategame is bad, you should watch Stephano play hive-tech ZvP. Now that looks absolutely hopeless.
On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
The colossus should at least have a sort of, "BRACE FOR IMPACT IM FIREN MA LAZERS" sort of effect. Like the siege tank.
On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
The colossus should at least have a sort of, "BRACE FOR IMPACT IM FIREN MA LAZERS" sort of effect. Like the siege tank.
How about colossus is range 6, can be shot by air and walk up cliffs, but when deployed (1.5 sec deploy time?) gets range 9 (might need to be longer once it's immobile? stim maraurders would kill it soooo fast) and can no longer be shot by Air (note, by air i mean vikings, not banshees)
On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
The colossus should at least have a sort of, "BRACE FOR IMPACT IM FIREN MA LAZERS" sort of effect. Like the siege tank.
How about colossus is range 6, can be shot by air and walk up cliffs, but when deployed (1.5 sec deploy time?) gets range 9 (might need to be longer once it's immobile? stim maraurders would kill it soooo fast) and can no longer be shot by Air (note, by air i mean vikings, not banshees)
So basically it would be a worse version of the Siege Tank that costs more?
On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
The colossus should at least have a sort of, "BRACE FOR IMPACT IM FIREN MA LAZERS" sort of effect. Like the siege tank.
How about colossus is range 6, can be shot by air and walk up cliffs, but when deployed (1.5 sec deploy time?) gets range 9 (might need to be longer once it's immobile? stim maraurders would kill it soooo fast) and can no longer be shot by Air (note, by air i mean vikings, not banshees)
I always thought the colossus should shoot in a straight line and do a bit more damage. It would actually make the engagements interesting.
On May 20 2012 01:34 losteden wrote: Honestly I thought the Blue's comment was pretty absurd from a game balance point of view. All races should be equal regardless of the "stage of the game". After watching the game's strategy unfold over the last couple of years, Blizzard has seen these imbalances during certain stages in the game and their thoughts on this are "We meant to do it!" I call bullsh*t.
Yep, I don't like to do this but even Idra and Artosis agree:
On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
The colossus should at least have a sort of, "BRACE FOR IMPACT IM FIREN MA LAZERS" sort of effect. Like the siege tank.
How about colossus is range 6, can be shot by air and walk up cliffs, but when deployed (1.5 sec deploy time?) gets range 9 (might need to be longer once it's immobile? stim maraurders would kill it soooo fast) and can no longer be shot by Air (note, by air i mean vikings, not banshees)
So basically it would be a worse version of the Siege Tank that costs more?
On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
The colossus should at least have a sort of, "BRACE FOR IMPACT IM FIREN MA LAZERS" sort of effect. Like the siege tank.
How about colossus is range 6, can be shot by air and walk up cliffs, but when deployed (1.5 sec deploy time?) gets range 9 (might need to be longer once it's immobile? stim maraurders would kill it soooo fast) and can no longer be shot by Air (note, by air i mean vikings, not banshees)
So basically it would be a worse version of the Siege Tank that costs more?
No...
I didn't know tanks could walk up cliffs...
Just ignore him, he won't be happy until Protoss can warp in collosus.
Terran is in no way underpowered. You have got to be kidding me. MVP has won his 4th GSL and Terran continues to win at the highest levels of play unlike any other.
Just because you are bad, doesn't mean that Terran is UP.
On May 21 2012 10:32 Lore-Fighting wrote: Terran is in no way underpowered. You have got to be kidding me. MVP has won his 4th GSL and Terran continues to win at the highest levels of play unlike any other.
Just because you are bad, doesn't mean that Terran is UP.
4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument.
Yeah terran is winning at the highest level , that's what blizzard says too , but what about lower level? did you watch starleague? they are not highest level , but "lower to high level" all but 1 terran lost. they basically represent the ladder!
On May 16 2012 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
Seriously Blizzard messed up so much when designing Protoss in SC2. Whoever designed the Collosus and the Voidray need to be fired. There is 0 micro required to use these units other than moving them out of harms way. Whoever thought warp gate was a good idea needs to be fired. Charge on Zealots makes them another A move unit, The only units you can use to make your army more cost effecient with good micro are basically sentries, stalkers, pheonixes and high templar.
Using your micro and multitasking to make your units more cost effective is what makes starcraft fun in my opinion. Basically every unit Terran has is able to to be micro'd to be more cost effective which is why playing Terran is easily the most fun imo. Splitting bio, casting snipes and emp's, seiging tanks, focus firing tanks, kiting with banshees, kiting with vikings/ landing them to harass, kiting with hellions, kiting with reapers/ cliff micro, casting seeker missles/ point defense drones. All of these things can make your army so much more cost effective.
So instead of giving Protoss and Zerg more micro intensive units that are able to be more cost effecient with good micro they just nerf everything Terran has to where it takes so much more APM to beat Zergs and Protosses at a similar level. I like the idea of the Swarm Host, Viper and Oracle but they still need more good micro units to make this game good.
And to any Protoss or Zerg players who read part of this post and complain that I am calling Zerg and Protoss imba I am not. I'm saying that Terran has more microable units therefore once good players started to play Terran they had to nerf the Banshee, nerf the Tank, nerf the Reaper, nerf the Ghost, nerf the Hellion. I want Zerg and Protoss to be fun to play but casting storms and forcefielding/ casting fungal and microing mutas isn't enough for me.
The colossus should at least have a sort of, "BRACE FOR IMPACT IM FIREN MA LAZERS" sort of effect. Like the siege tank.
How about colossus is range 6, can be shot by air and walk up cliffs, but when deployed (1.5 sec deploy time?) gets range 9 (might need to be longer once it's immobile? stim maraurders would kill it soooo fast) and can no longer be shot by Air (note, by air i mean vikings, not banshees)
So basically it would be a worse version of the Siege Tank that costs more?
No...
I didn't know tanks could walk up cliffs...
Pretty sure the ability to walk up cliffs isn't worth having 4 less range, costing more, and being able to be targeted by air units, lol.
Through 102 pages, I find that the first reply to this thread basically sums it all up. lol.
On May 04 2012 13:40 aYtDuSteR wrote: ...You are taking the game way out of context to prove a point thats already been addressed in blizzards post. As state by blizzard you can also look at it from the POV T>P in the early game and therefore T >P in late game due to mid game advantage ( which was exactly what blizzard stated and you overlooked).
The point is you can always take something out of context look at it with an absolute perspective and cry imballance. SC2 isn't a 1D game that can be viewed in that way, its a fluid and dynamic game that should be viewed as progression proceeds through the different stages of the game.
Play to the meta game instead of bashing your head against a wall and maybe try out some of those other units Terran has? MMM is slowly losing viability, and Terran is the most diverse and versatile race, I see no excuse to start trying new shit, like Protoss and Zerg were forced to do to combat a very strong Terran for like a year.
I would absolutely LOVE to quantify the psychological effects a perceived imbalance does to the W/L ratio.
On May 21 2012 08:05 IshinShishi wrote: My fear is that Flash will end up switching races, I doubt he is happy with the current state of random code B protoss being the ace.
Flash is already been playing Protoss on the korean server.
Proof?
Just noticed this but that's silly IMO.
Terran (in BW too and in SC2) is arguably the best race at the highest (practical in terms of human capabilities) skill level, and Flash has the capabilities to get to that skill level.
He should stick with Terran IMO. Should just watch MVP or Marineking to get that boost in morale.
Anyway as for the TvP debate in terms of skill level, it was kind of that way in BW too.
Terran was the least played race (AFAIK) by regular players while one of the most played at the highest levels.
Of course they could change their mind but I agree as if the game was more balanced (not exactly balanced but at least more than now) at all lengths, it would allow the game to be a lot more varietiable and dynamic.
As for changes to balance before HotS? I think Thor energy should be removed again, so they can't be feedbacked. Protoss still have the Immortal (and Void Ray too now with the massive damage buff) so it's not like mass Thor is going to break the game. Also it would help make mech somewhat viable in TvP again.
Lol, Effort was code S level? Any code B player should be able to do that when he goes unharassed. Not saying Effort is bad, it was just that Flash didn't put any pressure at all. If you can get away with 3rd before pool and only having 20-30 lings before you saturate 3 bases, of course you will remax quick on ling/bling + a few mutas.
EPT
