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On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
BC's cost 400/300 a starport and take forever to build. Templar warp in instantly, and are often used as a gas sink, rather than a tactical decision to serve as part of your composition.
Terran needs a late game composition, not because of balance, but because otherwise TvP will remain incredibly stale.
Protoss has their lategame composition, they need a better early game composition that can deal with the terran army without forcefields.
Regardless of whether MVP made a mistake or not, MVP was so far ahead in economy the battle was a great example on how Terran doesn't really have viable late game options. The comeback was cool, but you would get much better back and forth play with more evenly distributed firepower between races and phases of the game.
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On May 21 2012 14:28 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
Forced energy shutoff seems to me like a really interesting idea. I'd like to see it at least PTR'd. It's kind of sad that Yamato and Strike Cannons are such problematic abilities. Direct damage abilities are something powerful on any unit, and even more so on units that can engage normally (as we saw in Thorzain's old builds and pre-nerf endgame TvZ). From what I recall, the only reason Yamato wasn't troublesome in BW was how obscenely powerful Storm and Plague were. An option to turn them off could result in a much more interesting mech game. Oh, come to think of it, here's an alternative to consider. Have energy only be enabled by researching the ability itself.
Feedback really needs to be removed. Its not spectacular at all and its not fun to do and it creates lame patterns in TvP where Thors and BC's become almost unusable. If Feedback stays, it needs to be on a more difficult tech path, like dark-shrine research + dark archon, and the Thor energy+ability should be removed with some sort of late-game mech buff.
Storm really needs to be buffed, and Terran needs a transition option so that when Protoss gets storm, Terran can transition to something which doesn't melt to storm, like Mech or Air.
Get rid of forcefields and speed up hydras, and storm is no longer op vs Zerg either. And if Protoss can't work without forcefields then that is tantamount to how badly designed Protoss is, a race should never revolve around the use one spell. That means you will never see a game without sentries and stunts strategy development.
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On May 21 2012 14:37 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
BC's cost 400/300 a starport and take forever to build. Templar warp in instantly, and are often used as a gas sink, rather than a tactical decision to serve as part of your composition. Terran needs a late game composition, not because of balance, but because otherwise TvP will remain incredibly stale. Protoss has their lategame composition, they need a better early game composition that can deal with the terran army without forcefields. Regardless of whether MVP made a mistake or not, MVP was so far ahead in economy the battle was a great example on how Terran doesn't really have viable late game options. The comeback was cool, but you would get much better back and forth play with more evenly distributed firepower between races and phases of the game.
um ur last paragraph doesn't make sense
regardless of whether or not mvp made a mistake? you can make 40 marines, run them into a few banelings
that's a mistake where the marines should have split and killed the banelings (or just kite and not lose any)
also terran has their lategame composition in MMMVG, and if you are like ryung u can add BCs on later
and of course, terran has BC/ghost on maps like metro where they need a stronger deathball army to deal with protoss's deathball (which is stronger than usual cus of all the gas)
yes, it takes a shit ton of micro and APM to be able to multitask drops, remaking army during the fight, and kiting with ur MMM, V, and sniping/emping the HTs and everything, while also splitting the MMM, but pros are able to do that
what blizzard needs to address is that terran is hard to play, but with really good micro, you can overcome compositions that are supposed to counter you (think MKP's MMM vs parting's HTs, or when MKP goes MMM vs zergs with infestor tech), and make drops extremely valuable
on the other hand, p and z doesn't have units that are as micro-able
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On May 21 2012 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:28 Acritter wrote:On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
Forced energy shutoff seems to me like a really interesting idea. I'd like to see it at least PTR'd. It's kind of sad that Yamato and Strike Cannons are such problematic abilities. Direct damage abilities are something powerful on any unit, and even more so on units that can engage normally (as we saw in Thorzain's old builds and pre-nerf endgame TvZ). From what I recall, the only reason Yamato wasn't troublesome in BW was how obscenely powerful Storm and Plague were. An option to turn them off could result in a much more interesting mech game. Oh, come to think of it, here's an alternative to consider. Have energy only be enabled by researching the ability itself. Feedback really needs to be removed. Its not spectacular at all and its not fun to do and it creates lame patterns in TvP where Thors and BC's become almost unusable. Storm really needs to be buffed, and Terran needs a transition option so that when Protoss gets storm, Terran can transition to something which doesn't melt to storm, like Mech or Air. Get rid of forcefields and speed up hydras, and storm is no longer op vs Zerg either. And if Protoss can't work without forcefields then that is tantamount to how badly designed Protoss is, a race should never revolve around the use one spell. That means you will never see a game without sentries and stunts strategy development.
honestly that would be great
remove feedback (kind of retarded ability) give HT something else nice. something refreshing which would also make ravens not deadmeat in tvp
storm doesnt need to be buffed. keep it the way it is and allow storm to continue to stomp bio but with feedback removed mech becomes viable
the weakness in TvP mech is the hellions which die too fast to collossi, but its even moreso the fact that thors get feedbacked. Thor+viking+hellion+ a few tanks is not too weak to collossi at all (its weak to immortals, but EMP deals with immortals nicely)
if feedback was removed, mech TvP would become viable instantly because thors TRULY SHINE and are TRULY POWERFUL as long as the toss doesnt feedback them.
honestly removing feedback would alone be the most amazing change to balance this game and make each matchup much more dynamic. only problem is blizzards perceived Thor Rush problem would come back (strike cannons too easily counter immortals, no feedback available for protoss) but in that situation i think the solution is to simply make immortal shields block strike cannon damage, making strike cannons still nice against collossi
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On May 21 2012 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:37 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
BC's cost 400/300 a starport and take forever to build. Templar warp in instantly, and are often used as a gas sink, rather than a tactical decision to serve as part of your composition. Terran needs a late game composition, not because of balance, but because otherwise TvP will remain incredibly stale. Protoss has their lategame composition, they need a better early game composition that can deal with the terran army without forcefields. Regardless of whether MVP made a mistake or not, MVP was so far ahead in economy the battle was a great example on how Terran doesn't really have viable late game options. The comeback was cool, but you would get much better back and forth play with more evenly distributed firepower between races and phases of the game. um ur last paragraph doesn't make sense regardless of whether or not mvp made a mistake? you can make 40 marines, run them into a few banelings that's a mistake where the marines should have split and killed the banelings (or just kite and not lose any) also terran has their lategame composition in MMMVG, and if you are like ryung u can add BCs on later and of course, terran has BC/ghost on maps like metro where they need a stronger deathball army to deal with protoss's deathball (which is stronger than usual cus of all the gas) yes, it takes a shit ton of micro and APM to be able to multitask drops, remaking army during the fight, and kiting with ur MMM, V, and sniping/emping the HTs and everything, while also splitting the MMM, but pros are able to do that what blizzard needs to address is that terran is hard to play, but with really good micro, you can overcome compositions that are supposed to counter you (think MKP's MMM vs parting's HTs, or when MKP goes MMM vs zergs with infestor tech), and make drops extremely valuable on the other hand, p and z doesn't have units that are as micro-able
The point is MVP made a minor mistake and lost his army and the game, but if Squirtle made a mistake and lost his army, he wouldn't have lost the game. Mistakes shouldn't be punishable by instagib, especially in late game. When MVP lost his army, given the economic status, that should have evened the game and given map control to Squirtle to allow him to get another base and catch up economy, that's how it should work as an RTS.
On May 21 2012 14:57 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 14:28 Acritter wrote:On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
Forced energy shutoff seems to me like a really interesting idea. I'd like to see it at least PTR'd. It's kind of sad that Yamato and Strike Cannons are such problematic abilities. Direct damage abilities are something powerful on any unit, and even more so on units that can engage normally (as we saw in Thorzain's old builds and pre-nerf endgame TvZ). From what I recall, the only reason Yamato wasn't troublesome in BW was how obscenely powerful Storm and Plague were. An option to turn them off could result in a much more interesting mech game. Oh, come to think of it, here's an alternative to consider. Have energy only be enabled by researching the ability itself. Feedback really needs to be removed. Its not spectacular at all and its not fun to do and it creates lame patterns in TvP where Thors and BC's become almost unusable. Storm really needs to be buffed, and Terran needs a transition option so that when Protoss gets storm, Terran can transition to something which doesn't melt to storm, like Mech or Air. Get rid of forcefields and speed up hydras, and storm is no longer op vs Zerg either. And if Protoss can't work without forcefields then that is tantamount to how badly designed Protoss is, a race should never revolve around the use one spell. That means you will never see a game without sentries and stunts strategy development. honestly that would be great remove feedback (kind of retarded ability) give HT something else nice. something refreshing which would also make ravens not deadmeat in tvp storm doesnt need to be buffed. keep it the way it is and allow storm to continue to stomp bio but with feedback removed mech becomes viable the weakness in TvP mech is the hellions which die too fast to collossi, but its even moreso the fact that thors get feedbacked. Thor+viking+hellion+ a few tanks is not too weak to collossi at all (its weak to immortals, but EMP deals with immortals nicely) if feedback was removed, mech TvP would become viable instantly because thors TRULY SHINE and are TRULY POWERFUL as long as the toss doesnt feedback them. honestly removing feedback would alone be the most amazing change to balance this game and make each matchup much more dynamic. only problem is blizzards perceived Thor Rush problem would come back (strike cannons too easily counter immortals, no feedback available for protoss) but in that situation i think the solution is to simply make immortal shields block strike cannon damage, making strike cannons still nice against collossi
Actually hellions are quite good against Collossi when surrounded, yeah it makes no sense, but when I played mech I often picked off lone rallied Colossi with hellions and they died in about 3-4 volleys. In your main composition, +1 range turrets and tanks can deal with Colossi quite easily. Blink stalkers are actually much better against hellions.
The main problem with hellions was they were really only good for killing workers and pretty terrible against stalker heavy composition because their armored damage is really weak and they fire really slow. Line damage is also pretty useless against chargelots as hellions are still quite slow (compared to vultures), and a good player will send a wall of zealots parallel to your army, rather than in a line. I would much rather vultures without mines even, even though they are not as good at killing workers, they were much faster and served much better at actually killing army units.
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MVP won the GSL final, top 3 players at MLG were all zerg and protoss haven't won a major tournament in ages and yet the protoss OP whine never stops. :/
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On May 21 2012 15:03 tomatriedes wrote:
MVP won the GSL final, top 3 players at MLG were all zerg and protoss haven't won a major tournament in ages and yet the protoss OP whine never stops. :/
And didn't MVP win the last game with an SCV all-in? And another with a base-trade? That's precisely what this thread is trying to address.
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i dont think forcefield should be removed. its easily dealable by zerg and theres some korean strats on the ladder that dont get sentries and perform fine.
feedback however, removing feedback would instantly make mech viable, make BC's viable, make the game so much better in both matchups
dunno what kind of spell HT could get in return but feedback getting scrapped would improve everything and only cause one problem (thorzain style fast 3rush becomes overpowered again without feedback existing) however that can be fixed by making 1 point of harden shields absorb a full strike cannon. strike cannon would still be useful against collossi
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On May 21 2012 14:57 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 21 2012 14:37 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
BC's cost 400/300 a starport and take forever to build. Templar warp in instantly, and are often used as a gas sink, rather than a tactical decision to serve as part of your composition. Terran needs a late game composition, not because of balance, but because otherwise TvP will remain incredibly stale. Protoss has their lategame composition, they need a better early game composition that can deal with the terran army without forcefields. Regardless of whether MVP made a mistake or not, MVP was so far ahead in economy the battle was a great example on how Terran doesn't really have viable late game options. The comeback was cool, but you would get much better back and forth play with more evenly distributed firepower between races and phases of the game. um ur last paragraph doesn't make sense regardless of whether or not mvp made a mistake? you can make 40 marines, run them into a few banelings that's a mistake where the marines should have split and killed the banelings (or just kite and not lose any) also terran has their lategame composition in MMMVG, and if you are like ryung u can add BCs on later and of course, terran has BC/ghost on maps like metro where they need a stronger deathball army to deal with protoss's deathball (which is stronger than usual cus of all the gas) yes, it takes a shit ton of micro and APM to be able to multitask drops, remaking army during the fight, and kiting with ur MMM, V, and sniping/emping the HTs and everything, while also splitting the MMM, but pros are able to do that what blizzard needs to address is that terran is hard to play, but with really good micro, you can overcome compositions that are supposed to counter you (think MKP's MMM vs parting's HTs, or when MKP goes MMM vs zergs with infestor tech), and make drops extremely valuable on the other hand, p and z doesn't have units that are as micro-able The point is MVP made a minor mistake and lost his army and the game, but if Squirtle made a mistake and lost his army, he wouldn't have lost the game. Mistakes shouldn't be punishable by instagib, especially in late game. When MVP lost his army, given the economic status, that should have evened the game and given map control to Squirtle to allow him to get another base and catch up economy, that's how it should work as an RTS. Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:57 roymarthyup wrote:On May 21 2012 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 14:28 Acritter wrote:On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
Forced energy shutoff seems to me like a really interesting idea. I'd like to see it at least PTR'd. It's kind of sad that Yamato and Strike Cannons are such problematic abilities. Direct damage abilities are something powerful on any unit, and even more so on units that can engage normally (as we saw in Thorzain's old builds and pre-nerf endgame TvZ). From what I recall, the only reason Yamato wasn't troublesome in BW was how obscenely powerful Storm and Plague were. An option to turn them off could result in a much more interesting mech game. Oh, come to think of it, here's an alternative to consider. Have energy only be enabled by researching the ability itself. Feedback really needs to be removed. Its not spectacular at all and its not fun to do and it creates lame patterns in TvP where Thors and BC's become almost unusable. Storm really needs to be buffed, and Terran needs a transition option so that when Protoss gets storm, Terran can transition to something which doesn't melt to storm, like Mech or Air. Get rid of forcefields and speed up hydras, and storm is no longer op vs Zerg either. And if Protoss can't work without forcefields then that is tantamount to how badly designed Protoss is, a race should never revolve around the use one spell. That means you will never see a game without sentries and stunts strategy development. honestly that would be great remove feedback (kind of retarded ability) give HT something else nice. something refreshing which would also make ravens not deadmeat in tvp storm doesnt need to be buffed. keep it the way it is and allow storm to continue to stomp bio but with feedback removed mech becomes viable the weakness in TvP mech is the hellions which die too fast to collossi, but its even moreso the fact that thors get feedbacked. Thor+viking+hellion+ a few tanks is not too weak to collossi at all (its weak to immortals, but EMP deals with immortals nicely) if feedback was removed, mech TvP would become viable instantly because thors TRULY SHINE and are TRULY POWERFUL as long as the toss doesnt feedback them. honestly removing feedback would alone be the most amazing change to balance this game and make each matchup much more dynamic. only problem is blizzards perceived Thor Rush problem would come back (strike cannons too easily counter immortals, no feedback available for protoss) but in that situation i think the solution is to simply make immortal shields block strike cannon damage, making strike cannons still nice against collossi Actually hellions are quite good against Collossi when surrounded, yeah it makes no sense, but when I played mech I often picked off lone rallied Colossi with hellions and they died in about 3-4 volleys. The main problem with hellions was they were really only good for killing workers and pretty terrible against stalker heavy composition because their armored damage is really weak and they fire really slow. Line damage is also pretty useless against chargelots as hellions are still quite slow (compared to vultures), and a good player will send a wall of zealots parallel to your army, rather than in a line. I would much rather vultures without mines even, even though they are not as good at killing workers, they were much faster and served much better at actually killing army units.
Squirtle would have lost the game... and you are making that statement on the assumption that they were on equal grounds, which is not true. Squirtle had a huge bank, and MVP didn't.
It's a deathball. Of course you are going to lose a lot of ground in the game if you suddenly lose it. But if you don't...?
how is squirtle going to beat 25-30 ish BCs with only 6000 minerals and 2000 gas? (or somewhere around there) that's like 40 stalkers
weren't you saying that BC composition is really strong? and yet you don't think squirtle would have lost his game if he lost his extremely expensive army?
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On May 21 2012 14:57 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 21 2012 14:37 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
BC's cost 400/300 a starport and take forever to build. Templar warp in instantly, and are often used as a gas sink, rather than a tactical decision to serve as part of your composition. Terran needs a late game composition, not because of balance, but because otherwise TvP will remain incredibly stale. Protoss has their lategame composition, they need a better early game composition that can deal with the terran army without forcefields. Regardless of whether MVP made a mistake or not, MVP was so far ahead in economy the battle was a great example on how Terran doesn't really have viable late game options. The comeback was cool, but you would get much better back and forth play with more evenly distributed firepower between races and phases of the game. um ur last paragraph doesn't make sense regardless of whether or not mvp made a mistake? you can make 40 marines, run them into a few banelings that's a mistake where the marines should have split and killed the banelings (or just kite and not lose any) also terran has their lategame composition in MMMVG, and if you are like ryung u can add BCs on later and of course, terran has BC/ghost on maps like metro where they need a stronger deathball army to deal with protoss's deathball (which is stronger than usual cus of all the gas) yes, it takes a shit ton of micro and APM to be able to multitask drops, remaking army during the fight, and kiting with ur MMM, V, and sniping/emping the HTs and everything, while also splitting the MMM, but pros are able to do that what blizzard needs to address is that terran is hard to play, but with really good micro, you can overcome compositions that are supposed to counter you (think MKP's MMM vs parting's HTs, or when MKP goes MMM vs zergs with infestor tech), and make drops extremely valuable on the other hand, p and z doesn't have units that are as micro-able The point is MVP made a minor mistake and lost his army and the game, but if Squirtle made a mistake and lost his army, he wouldn't have lost the game. Mistakes shouldn't be punishable by instagib, especially in late game. When MVP lost his army, given the economic status, that should have evened the game and given map control to Squirtle to allow him to get another base and catch up economy, that's how it should work as an RTS. Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:57 roymarthyup wrote:On May 21 2012 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 14:28 Acritter wrote:On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
Forced energy shutoff seems to me like a really interesting idea. I'd like to see it at least PTR'd. It's kind of sad that Yamato and Strike Cannons are such problematic abilities. Direct damage abilities are something powerful on any unit, and even more so on units that can engage normally (as we saw in Thorzain's old builds and pre-nerf endgame TvZ). From what I recall, the only reason Yamato wasn't troublesome in BW was how obscenely powerful Storm and Plague were. An option to turn them off could result in a much more interesting mech game. Oh, come to think of it, here's an alternative to consider. Have energy only be enabled by researching the ability itself. Feedback really needs to be removed. Its not spectacular at all and its not fun to do and it creates lame patterns in TvP where Thors and BC's become almost unusable. Storm really needs to be buffed, and Terran needs a transition option so that when Protoss gets storm, Terran can transition to something which doesn't melt to storm, like Mech or Air. Get rid of forcefields and speed up hydras, and storm is no longer op vs Zerg either. And if Protoss can't work without forcefields then that is tantamount to how badly designed Protoss is, a race should never revolve around the use one spell. That means you will never see a game without sentries and stunts strategy development. honestly that would be great remove feedback (kind of retarded ability) give HT something else nice. something refreshing which would also make ravens not deadmeat in tvp storm doesnt need to be buffed. keep it the way it is and allow storm to continue to stomp bio but with feedback removed mech becomes viable the weakness in TvP mech is the hellions which die too fast to collossi, but its even moreso the fact that thors get feedbacked. Thor+viking+hellion+ a few tanks is not too weak to collossi at all (its weak to immortals, but EMP deals with immortals nicely) if feedback was removed, mech TvP would become viable instantly because thors TRULY SHINE and are TRULY POWERFUL as long as the toss doesnt feedback them. honestly removing feedback would alone be the most amazing change to balance this game and make each matchup much more dynamic. only problem is blizzards perceived Thor Rush problem would come back (strike cannons too easily counter immortals, no feedback available for protoss) but in that situation i think the solution is to simply make immortal shields block strike cannon damage, making strike cannons still nice against collossi Actually hellions are quite good against Collossi when surrounded, yeah it makes no sense, but when I played mech I often picked off lone rallied Colossi with hellions and they died in about 3-4 volleys. The main problem with hellions was they were really only good for killing workers and pretty terrible against stalker heavy composition because their armored damage is really weak and they fire really slow. Line damage is also pretty useless against chargelots as hellions are still quite slow (compared to vultures), and a good player will send a wall of zealots parallel to your army, rather than in a line. I would much rather vultures without mines even, even though they are not as good at killing workers, they were much faster and served much better at actually killing army units.
yeah i said hellions are weak however i said the main problem is thors. i agree hellions arent THAAAT weak and i dont think hellions need to be buffed
instead i garuntee if feedback was removed, or if somehow thors energy bars were removed, mech would become viable instantly
3/3 hellions with tanks and thors to spend gas on is actually not that weak against 3/3/3 stalkers. keep the tanks unsieged and they SHRED stalkers, thors shred stalkers too.
the reason is because tanks and thors have 7range, and at 200food hellions splash plenty stalkers and the hellions are probably out DPSing the stalkers at that point due to splash, and tanks and thors with upgrades SHRED stalkers like nothing else due to getting extra damage per upgrade where as stalkers only get 1 damage per upgrade
hellion/thor/tank will STOMP stalker/collossi/zealot. the only reason tosses are winning now is because of feedback
remove feedback would fix so much with this game
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On May 21 2012 15:06 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 15:03 tomatriedes wrote:
MVP won the GSL final, top 3 players at MLG were all zerg and protoss haven't won a major tournament in ages and yet the protoss OP whine never stops. :/ And didn't MVP win the last game with an SCV all-in? And another with a base-trade? That's precisely what this thread is trying to address.
Terran has strong early game which compensates for their late game and advantages in situations like base trades which compensates for the late game. That's why the match up is not imbalanced.
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On May 21 2012 15:30 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 15:06 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 15:03 tomatriedes wrote:
MVP won the GSL final, top 3 players at MLG were all zerg and protoss haven't won a major tournament in ages and yet the protoss OP whine never stops. :/ And didn't MVP win the last game with an SCV all-in? And another with a base-trade? That's precisely what this thread is trying to address. Terran has strong early game which compensates for their late game and advantages in situations like base trades which compensates for the late game. That's why the match up is not imbalanced.
Neither of which reflect good game design. Its half the reason I can only stand to play one or two games of SC2 a day. Where as I could play BW all night till I pass out.
This thread is called "TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard", not TvP Balance.
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On May 21 2012 10:35 ntssauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:32 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Terran is in no way underpowered. You have got to be kidding me. MVP has won his 4th GSL and Terran continues to win at the highest levels of play unlike any other.
Just because you are bad, doesn't mean that Terran is UP. 4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument. Yeah terran is winning at the highest level , that's what blizzard says too , but what about lower level? did you watch starleague? they are not highest level , but "lower to high level" all but 1 terran lost. they basically represent the ladder!
I am also talking about now. Your evidence does not make mine invalid. Play the game, figure it out.
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Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
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On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
It's more of the fact that terrans are stuck on bio basically the whole game.
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With HotS coming closer and closer, I wonder how valid this discussion is tbh. From what I have heard so far Battle Hellions and Warhounds seem to make mech TvP viable and give Terran some badly needed late game potential.
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On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
You think Terran players do this just because they can't be bothered to tech?
+ Show Spoiler +mm from early game is not the same as mm with stim, concussive s, combat s, ghost with cloak, medvecs and vikings plus 2 different upgrade paths for bio and air
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On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Because terran players say that they are forced to stick to the 1,2 tier units the hole game. If this is true blizzard fucked up the design. But I am not completely sure this is the fact thought but more that tvp lategame needs to be reinvented.
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damn i just figured out a spell that could replace feedback
call it psi shielding. 50 energy this spell when casted on a protoss unit gives it a seperate bonus shielding of 50 shield points that does not regenerate and works on shield upgrades. the unit does not take normal damage until the bonus shield is depleted and emp may remove the bonus shield for the normal emp amounts. psi shield may be casted twice on a unit to provide up to 100 bonus shielding. between 1-50 shield health the shield glows green around the unit. between 51-100 shield health the shield glows purple around the unit. max of 100 bonus shield health per unit (2 casts)
this psi shielding lasts forever on the unit until it gets damaged away. it does not regenerate between combat
this spell isnt as bad as you think. at first i was thinking maybe make it 100 shields for 50energy but thats imbalanced when you think 1ht with 200energy can be 400health (shields) plus half of an archon (175 shields). so thats 575 health for 2food, too strong.
considering snipe is 25 energy for 25 damage i felt it ok to make it 50 energy for 50 shields considering it can be cast pre-combat during a turtle-phase if no action is going turning templars with over 200 energy into bonus / free health
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On May 21 2012 16:33 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Because terran players say that they are forced to stick to the 1,2 tier units the hole game. If this is true blizzard fucked up the design. But I am not completely sure this is the fact thought but more that tvp lategame needs to be reinvented.
pretty much feedback needs to be removed or BC's and thors need a "no energy" option. feedback is a horrible design element and if removed mech would become viable in the matchup instantly
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