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On May 21 2012 20:02 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:00 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On May 21 2012 17:58 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 21 2012 10:35 ntssauce wrote:
4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument.
Amusingly MVP by himself wins GSL more frequently than the entire Protoss race, as well as having twice as many championships as the entire Protoss race. If you take MVP as an individual (4 wins) he has also won more GSLs than Terran (2 wins, 3 if you include the Super Tournament), and one of those was against MVP. It's a bit of a joke amongst Terrans that Blizzard balance the game as if everyone was MVP. so how should it be balanced? this thread is ridiculous. no one has even identified an actual problem. it's just the same garbage: protoss is too strong late game, so nerf X because that will fix the problem. that's not how you solve a problem. identify the problem first and then figure out a way to solve it. not the other way around. and the game absolutely has to be balanced around the top level of players. if it's not done this way it ceases to be competitive
The game can't be balanced around top players because top players aren't of equal skill. If you balance around the top players, the most dominant players will suffer because they're better than everyone else, and the people who aren't as good but happen to play the same race as the dominant players will end up getting gutted for it. It's important to realize when something is actually imbalanced, and when there's actual quantity and quality difference between the top players of each race.
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On May 21 2012 20:10 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:02 Alejandrisha wrote:On May 21 2012 20:00 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On May 21 2012 17:58 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 21 2012 10:35 ntssauce wrote:
4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument.
Amusingly MVP by himself wins GSL more frequently than the entire Protoss race, as well as having twice as many championships as the entire Protoss race. If you take MVP as an individual (4 wins) he has also won more GSLs than Terran (2 wins, 3 if you include the Super Tournament), and one of those was against MVP. It's a bit of a joke amongst Terrans that Blizzard balance the game as if everyone was MVP. so how should it be balanced? this thread is ridiculous. no one has even identified an actual problem. it's just the same garbage: protoss is too strong late game, so nerf X because that will fix the problem. that's not how you solve a problem. identify the problem first and then figure out a way to solve it. not the other way around. and the game absolutely has to be balanced around the top level of players. if it's not done this way it ceases to be competitive The game can't be balanced around top players because top players aren't of equal skill. If you balance around the top players, the most dominant players will suffer because they're better than everyone else, and the people who aren't as good but happen to play the same race as the dominant players will end up getting gutted for it. It's important to realize when something is actually imbalanced, and when there's actual quantity and quality difference between the top players of each race.
what do you propose instead? anecdotal evidence from ladder games and statistics from ladder games of lower leagues? these don't say anything objective or specific. if you focus on the highest level with games that everyone can see, you can get a better idea of what is broken and what happened based on one player being better than another. and from what i've watched i see absolutely no issue
and by the way when i say balanced around top level i'm not saying "x race has a higher win rate in the gsl, so it's broken"
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I propose for Blizzard to not make retarded changes based on MVP playing three games for starters, and having a wait and see approach to the game, focusing on game design and ensuring that all races are interesting and got alternatives instead of nerfing and buffing units to keep a 50% win ratio.
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On May 21 2012 20:02 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:00 Dzerzhinsky wrote:On May 21 2012 17:58 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 21 2012 10:35 ntssauce wrote:
4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument.
Amusingly MVP by himself wins GSL more frequently than the entire Protoss race, as well as having twice as many championships as the entire Protoss race. If you take MVP as an individual (4 wins) he has also won more GSLs than Terran (2 wins, 3 if you include the Super Tournament), and one of those was against MVP. It's a bit of a joke amongst Terrans that Blizzard balance the game as if everyone was MVP. so how should it be balanced? this thread is ridiculous. no one has even identified an actual problem. it's just the same garbage: protoss is too strong late game, so nerf X because that will fix the problem. that's not how you solve a problem. identify the problem first and then figure out a way to solve it. not the other way around. and the game absolutely has to be balanced around the top level of players. if it's not done this way it ceases to be competitive
What do you mean no one has identified an actual problem?
Protoss late game IS too strong. (and not even to a reasonable extent, the comparison with bw does not hold)
As for the suggested nerfs, I can see why you find them inadequate. I'm not sure how I would solve the situation if it was my job to balance.
You must realize tho, the people you criticize are two steps ahead of you:
-They have realized there's a problem.
-They have started to think about a solution.
One think I'd like to bring up to discussion that I've never heard anyone talk about is the warp gate upgrade and new maps.
I've heard a lot of people applauding blizzard for buffing ol speed, since the old speed was designed for smaller maps (steppes of war and whatnot) and thus was not sufficient to provide the required scouting information on the new, way larger map pool.
Am I the only one thinking that warp gates also need to be adjusted now that the difference between having them pop out at the gate, or wherever you please, is increasing with the maps?
I think that the reason protoss players have been having a lot of more success defending attacks in the mid game is indirect consequences of maps growing and warpgates being untouched.
On a large map, terran either cheeses in a non-reactionary manner (proxy rax etc), or plays strong macro. If you just add raxes and go for a timing, you will probably not hit the window.
The protoss however, always maintains the option of reactionary allins, which forces the terran into playing less greedy than the map allows, and thus by mid-game, terrans strengths are negated by the mere presence of warp gates.
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Maps are made based on the current balance issues of the game. They were made longer because terran all-ins and rushes were too strong. They'll be made smaller again if terran ends up too weak because of it. If Blizzard also balances around the current map pool it'll be an endless loop of map changes and balance changes based off each other. It's much better for Blizzard to work on game design that can hold its own regardless of map type, and let the map makers work on the terrain changes to really fine-tune the game.
I think specific change ideas from individuals are pointless, since they all have different experiences and ideas of the gameplay, but I do agree that warp gates are a massive issue with protoss, and the main reason the race is so rigid. There needs to be some sort of change to warp gates to open the protoss race as a whole. They single-handedly break key RTS rules like the defenders advantage, makes sure that you can't capitalize on advantages, and make sure that abilities like khaydarim amulet won't come back.
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I don't see how ppl can whine about toss late when Zerg's is way more powerful. Unless Toss gets a dumb Zerg who doesnt spread and catches a lucky vortex or Terran just does crazy drops and catches GGlords by themseves Zerg are easily the best late game race. I admit Toss is strong but they should be once they hit 200 due to highest cost in the game. All that needs to happen is shorter maps and not so easy 3rds like poster said above. Solves letting Zerg and Toss getting out of hand.
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Poster above pretty much nails it. While I felt when the game started out a lot of the maps favoured terran due to drop mechanics and siege distances right now some of the maps are doing my head in as a terran. They're so vast by the time my reinforcements get in the fight the game is over. Terran is forced to fight cost effeciently and do damage, but there's no cost effecient fighting for terran in late game tvp. Terran always runs out of money, every single time. The solution is in the maps.
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On May 21 2012 20:55 tdt wrote:
I don't see how ppl can whine about toss late when Zerg's is way more powerful. Unless Toss gets a dumb Zerg who doesnt spread and catches a lucky vortex or Terran just does crazy drops and catches GGlords by themseves Zerg are easily the best late game race. I admit Toss is strong but they should be once they hit 200 due to highest cost in the game. All that needs to happen is shorter maps and not so easy 3rds like poster said above. Solves letting Zerg and Toss getting out of hand.
You are sort of right. The standard marine tank does have a very hard time in late game unless Terran has an advantage or he has godly multitasking. The difference is that Terran can go mech and add a lot of Ravens with SM to have a good late game army.
In TvP though, theres no such luxury. At least done consistenly at the top level.
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On May 21 2012 20:41 Dalavita wrote:
Maps are made based on the current balance issues of the game. They were made longer because terran all-ins and rushes were too strong. They'll be made smaller again if terran ends up too weak because of it. If Blizzard also balances around the current map pool it'll be an endless loop of map changes and balance changes based off each other. It's much better for Blizzard to work on game design that can hold its own regardless of map type, and let the map makers work on the terrain changes to really fine-tune the game.
I think specific change ideas from individuals are pointless, since they all have different experiences and ideas of the gameplay, but I do agree that warp gates are a massive issue with protoss, and the main reason the race is so rigid. There needs to be some sort of change to warp gates to open the protoss race as a whole. They single-handedly break key RTS rules like the defenders advantage, makes sure that you can't capitalize on advantages, and make sure that abilities like khaydarim amulet won't come back.
If we don't accept suggestions from individuals, we're pretty much stuck dont you think? :D
Also, I was under the impression that the maps are bigger nowadays since that caters to the play style the viewers and players prefers because it gives the better player more chances to excel. Is that completely wrong?
Since it's tangential to my view on late game PvT, I'll write that too 
I can understand why they are reluctant to nerf protoss. They dont win that many tournaments after all. (not saying I agree, just that I can understand it)
I think the problem is that terran has to micro perfect while macroing flawlessly and catch every tech switch the protoss does. That is hard. But if its done well, it might be hard for protoss. Protoss however work well in deathball, which is easy to micro. Charge is auto cast, but incredibly hard to micro against. Basically: How is the best protoss supposed to make his skill count in a way the rank 5 protoss can not?
I just think protoss needs te be harder to play so that not any scrub can be parting, not necessarily weaker .
Thoughts?
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On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle.
I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do".
I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks.
Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot!
I aeventually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs..
Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know.
BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard.
I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why..
Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground.
Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too.
TL;DR
Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries.
Just realized the reason why no one does that, some Pro player said that Mech Units are useless vs Protoss after SC2 has been released for 2 weeks, since that that was an obvious "fact". Just like Idra said Roaches are the worst Units in the game, still Stephano wins with Roach only A LOT.
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On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries.
BC/Tank/Thor is way too slow . You move out with that to try and kill an expo and you will lose your production or all your mining bases ( or both ). Then you get your units slowly sniped off. If you only fight head-on yes protoss might lose but that'd be kinda stupid ? And btw Zealots don't ever melt to tankfire they take 3-5 tankshots to be killed thats alot 30-40 Zealots will just eat a tank/thors for breakfast. And the BC's can't kill them fast enough if they even reach the Zealot because they're so slow.
If you lose to Mech as Toss you play wrong against it. Its very very vulnerable and weak on most current maps . It can work on 1-2 of the Maps since there's only 1-2 places to defend to hold 4-6 bases. On other Maps the Toss will just pull you apart if you don't play Bio.
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I think there has been several other threads on the viability of mech (in the widest sense of theword) compositions vsP. Go look there if you actually wonder why it's not seen often.
No need to discus that yet again here imo.
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On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. Just realized the reason why no one does that, some Pro player said that Mech Units are useless vs Protoss after SC2 has been released for 2 weeks, since that that was an obvious "fact". Just like Idra said Roaches are the worst Units in the game, still Stephano wins with Roach only A LOT.
That's what MVP did in game 5 (4?) of the GSL finals. Built a bunch of BC and ghosts. Didn't turn out well for him because he got vortex'ed, but with a bit more practice (split BC, emp mothership), he could probably turn it into something very powerful. So yeah, there is probably something that hasn't be much explored with terran very late game.
The problem is that terran has to survive until this very late game situation.
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On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:
I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why..
Because it dies to 2-base Colossus.
Hell, I think every Mech build dies to 2-base Colossus with Immortal support. It's a timing push that Terran Mechers can't seem to handle because we either won't have Ghost to EMP the army or the map works against us and we're insanely out of position (watch Jinro vs Puzzle Game 3 NASL when I mean insanely out of position).
EDIT: The transition to BC/Ghost that MVP did was in the extreme lategame (Endgame) scenario. Bases were mined out and it all relied on one army vs one army. That type of situation you shouldn't see commonly.
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On May 21 2012 21:42 31415926535 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. Just realized the reason why no one does that, some Pro player said that Mech Units are useless vs Protoss after SC2 has been released for 2 weeks, since that that was an obvious "fact". Just like Idra said Roaches are the worst Units in the game, still Stephano wins with Roach only A LOT. That's what MVP did in game 5 (4?) of the GSL finals. Built a bunch of BC and ghosts. Didn't turn out well for him because he got vortex'ed, but with a bit more practice (split BC, emp mothership), he could probably turn it into something very powerful. So yeah, there is probably something that hasn't be much explored with terran very late game. The problem is that terran has to survive until this very late game situation.
This only works on a Map where like Metropolis or Shakuras where there's only 1 or at best 2 places you need to really defend to hold 4-6 bases. On 3 Bases you might get the army but you can never rebuild it ever again. And its also basically impossible to kill expos far away since you whole army is slow as fuck. So the Toss builds up an insane bank and will whittle down your hightech army little by little until your dead.
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On May 21 2012 21:41 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. BC/Tank/Thor is way too slow . You move out with that to try and kill an expo and you will lose your production or all your mining bases ( or both ). Then you get your units slowly sniped off. If you only fight head-on yes protoss might lose but that'd be kinda stupid ? And btw Zealots don't ever melt to tankfire they take 3-5 tankshots to be killed thats alot 30-40 Zealots will just eat a tank/thors for breakfast. And the BC's can't kill them fast enough if they even reach the Zealot because they're so slow. If you lose to Mech as Toss you play wrong against it. Its very very vulnerable and weak on most current maps . It can work on 1-2 of the Maps since there's only 1-2 places to defend to hold 4-6 bases. On other Maps the Toss will just pull you apart if you don't play Bio.
Right, I forgot how fast Colossi/Mothership and Broodlords are in comparison.
You either get a fast army or a power-army, that is it. Terrans go for the fast army and cry imba when they are a little bit weaker in straight up fights.
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I think when people tell Terran to "Just turtle up" on three bases they don't realize that it's insanely map dependent on how well that works.
Turtling on three bases is insanely easy on maps like Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom because of high ground advantage and really close bases, then it's "okay" on Shakuras Plateau even though you don't have high ground advantage.
Then you have maps like Korhal Compound and Tal'Darim Altar where your bases are insanely vulnerable to drops and Blink Stalker harass, and if you spread out too thin the Protoss army can just roll over you.
Not only that, but people also need to realize that the counter to a turtling Terran is taking the whole map and litering the area with Photon Cannons for when Terran wants to do their scary push, then use their mobility to force a Base Trade.
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On May 21 2012 21:59 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 21:41 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. BC/Tank/Thor is way too slow . You move out with that to try and kill an expo and you will lose your production or all your mining bases ( or both ). Then you get your units slowly sniped off. If you only fight head-on yes protoss might lose but that'd be kinda stupid ? And btw Zealots don't ever melt to tankfire they take 3-5 tankshots to be killed thats alot 30-40 Zealots will just eat a tank/thors for breakfast. And the BC's can't kill them fast enough if they even reach the Zealot because they're so slow. If you lose to Mech as Toss you play wrong against it. Its very very vulnerable and weak on most current maps . It can work on 1-2 of the Maps since there's only 1-2 places to defend to hold 4-6 bases. On other Maps the Toss will just pull you apart if you don't play Bio. Right, I forgot how fast Colossi/Mothership and Broodlords are in comparison. You either get a fast army or a power-army, that is it. Terrans go for the fast army and cry imba when they are a little bit weaker in straight up fights.
If you go Mech/BC your whole army is slow not just a few units ( well other than Helions but Helions don't kill expos and will get useless to kill workers once enough canons are up ) . You can't just mix in a few Bio units if you go mech and BC's your whole army will be behind so much on upgrades overall that you will just get rolled . And don't say upgrades for mech/air aren't that important because that'd be a lie.
And btw Colossi are a mobile unit compared to mech. They're as fast as tanks but no need to siege up and they also can cliffwalk and walk through units.
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On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I aeventually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. Just realized the reason why no one does that, some Pro player said that Mech Units are useless vs Protoss after SC2 has been released for 2 weeks, since that that was an obvious "fact". Just like Idra said Roaches are the worst Units in the game, still Stephano wins with Roach only A LOT.
That requires so much gas that you should be able to kill the Terran before he gets it. BCs take so long to build as well that there's a huge gap where he has is easily killable because of how expensive it is to produce more than one BC at a time. You can also just trade units very easily while expanding a lot, just get a good gateway count and remax quickly. Archons are also very good vs mech because of how much damage they can tank even if they have emp, but if they went for emp then they shouldn't of been able to afford the BC's meaning that you don't need any anti-air.
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EPT
