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On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on. Toss is OP late game and is only going to get worse now that the early/mid game is starting to get figured out.
Something needs to be changed, Terran players know it, Toss players know it (even though they won't admit it) even Zerg players know it.
I'm sure blizzard knows it too, they just don't know what to do about it.
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf.
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On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on. Toss is OP late game and is only going to get worse now that the early/mid game is starting to get figured out.
Something needs to be changed, Terran players know it, Toss players know it (even though they won't admit it) even Zerg players know it.
I'm sure blizzard knows it too, they just don't know what to do about it.
Yeah, buuu at all those protoss players that prefer facts over biased ladder losers claiming terran up.
Nobody invests in a late game tvp. One thing proven is that you can't transition that well from mmm into late game because the deathball kills you. However terrans still gamble and choose mmm hoping to early kill the protoss. When they don't succeed, omg toss imba.
The exact viceversa is in zvp where protoss can't let zerg macro and then complain about imba zerg 11 minute max population.
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On May 21 2012 21:59 rEalGuapo wrote:
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Show nested quote +
Right, I forgot how fast Colossi/Mothership and Broodlords are in comparison.
You either get a fast army or a power-army, that is it. Terrans go for the fast army and cry imba when they are a little bit weaker in straight up fights.
A fast terran army does not exist, bio has the same speed as hydras of creep.
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On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on.
GSL is the only one? (MVP) Hmmmm there's been a few more in 2012 ! Dreamhack with Thorzain, IPL with Alive, Marineking with not one but TWO MLG's, Polt taking Assembly, MMA winning both IEM and IronSquid. Compare that to the protoss/zerg list and well ... 'literally nothing else to fall back on' ? Oh ok.
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On May 21 2012 23:24 TMOUllrich wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on.
GSL is the only one? (MVP) Hmmmm there's been a few more in 2012 ! Dreamhack with Thorzain, IPL with Alive, Marineking with not one but TWO MLG's, Polt taking Assembly, MMA winning both IEM and IronSquid. Compare that to the protoss/zerg list and well ... 'literally nothing else to fall back on' ? Oh ok.
Hey don't show him facts. He doesn't like it.
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On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on. Toss is OP late game and is only going to get worse now that the early/mid game is starting to get figured out.
Something needs to be changed, Terran players know it, Toss players know it (even though they won't admit it) even Zerg players know it.
I'm sure blizzard knows it too, they just don't know what to do about it.
What does Zerg have to do with anything? Zerg lategame shits all over Protoss.
And really, the main thing is that the matchup is statistically balanced, so if you're going to change lategame PvT, you also need to change the early and midgame. Are you willing to take that hit, or are you one of those "midgame is balanced" heroes?
That said, I fully support buffs to Thors and BCs, and even a Ghost cost change to like 100/200 or maybe even 100/150. Maybe you wouldn't see Terrans floating 2k gas in the lategame if they had any good gas-sinks.
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On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on. Toss is OP late game and is only going to get worse now that the early/mid game is starting to get figured out.
Something needs to be changed, Terran players know it, Toss players know it (even though they won't admit it) even Zerg players know it.
I'm sure blizzard knows it too, they just don't know what to do about it.
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf.
And I'm sure, most terrans would gladly accept early game nerf, if it would mean viable late game for them, both sides would be happy, only problem is Blizzard doesn't want to admit they made mistake, so we will have to live with what we have, probably.
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On May 21 2012 22:17 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:13 Gantritor wrote:On May 21 2012 20:55 tdt wrote:
I don't see how ppl can whine about toss late when Zerg's is way more powerful. Unless Toss gets a dumb Zerg who doesnt spread and catches a lucky vortex or Terran just does crazy drops and catches GGlords by themseves Zerg are easily the best late game race. I admit Toss is strong but they should be once they hit 200 due to highest cost in the game. All that needs to happen is shorter maps and not so easy 3rds like poster said above. Solves letting Zerg and Toss getting out of hand. The difference between late game Zerg and Toss? The zerg has to respawn twice his army to kill you, the toss just amoves you to death losing 10 psi in a 200 vs 200 psi battle. And even if you win the battle, well, there is the 2000 mineral warp in of pure zeaAlot. Toss late game has ton of splash damage (archon + colossi + templar) and almost infinite hp (warp in of zeaAlot). You can outmicro/outmacro/outplay a zerg. You cannot win against toss in late game, ever. You can win only if he leaves the cpu for more than 10 minutes. Toss is broken in late game, that's it. 20 apm race. Yeah that sounds reasonable thank you for commenting. So Broodlord Infestor has to max twice in order to kill? How is a flying siege unit with great DPS that spawns smaller units AND is unreachable due to Fungal Growth so bad that it cannot kill units?? You just blindly hate because you find it most convenient, stop and think.. That is my experience with most people that claim imbalance ruins their life..
First of all you claimed imbalance, unless you don't think saying zerg has the best late game and calling broodlords GGLords is crying imbalance.
And yes, a lot of times BL infestor has to remax twice in order to kill one toss army. do you think it's easy to fungal a whole army of blink stalker collosi with HT's feedbacking the infestors? If you do you should try out zerg. A lot of people think toss is just A-move but of course it's not. The thing is, if toss has mothership, HT, blink stalker, collosi, and archons, the army is almost unstoppable, even with pure BL infestor. So don't spew this bullshit about zerg having the best lategame by far, because you're wrong.
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On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf.
Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days?
Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has...
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On May 21 2012 23:29 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on. Toss is OP late game and is only going to get worse now that the early/mid game is starting to get figured out.
Something needs to be changed, Terran players know it, Toss players know it (even though they won't admit it) even Zerg players know it.
I'm sure blizzard knows it too, they just don't know what to do about it.
What does Zerg have to do with anything? Zerg lategame shits all over Protoss. And really, the main thing is that the matchup is statistically balanced, so if you're going to change lategame PvT, you also need to change the early and midgame. Are you willing to take that hit, or are you one of those "midgame is balanced" heroes? That said, I fully support buffs to Thors and BCs, and even a Ghost cost change to like 100/200 or maybe even 100/150. Maybe you wouldn't see Terrans floating 2k gas in the lategame if they had any good gas-sinks.
That's the thing isn't it. The MU is balanced around terran all ins and protoss supremacy in late game. If Thors, BC, mech etc were better, then maybe Terran would play "for the late game", with lower mid game strenght, so both races could choose either agresive 2 base plays or more pasive, macro late game focused play.
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Gas is the limiting resource in the game. It's harder to come by, and its inclusion in the cost of a unit is usually to signify that the unit is better than its pure mineral counterpart.
Every unit barring the zealot for Protoss is a pretty heavy gas investment. The cost in gas for templar, colossi, archon (are often a misnomer for gas investment, they do not often cost additional gas since they can be made from recycled HT), and upgrades is often more than terran will ever spend in a TvP.
This is one standing army. Remaking that standing army is nearly impossible. Protoss realized that, and in turn the focus from the PvT perspective is to trade the majority of the bio force for one of your AoE tech trees (either all your templars or all your colossi) and to clean up the rest of the T army with your leftover Aoe (rarely accounts to more than 4-5 HTs) and a bunch of warped in chargelots.
Some idiot before complained about "Toss only say watch the GSL" but that's not solely because MVP won, it's because there are tons of keys on how to handle that strategy of Toss lategame.
- The planetary fortress slow push - You guys do it in TvZ with tanks. Using PFs to slowly create an unbreakable siege line really shits all over the mass chargelot remax strat. Protoss can not break the PF with that composition. (GSL finals game 5)
- Dropping while Protoss moves out to snipe pylons - This strategy relies on the rewarp. Snipe some pylons powering gateways. If you can unpower even 3 gateways, 7 zealots vs 10 zealots is a pretty substantial deal. Also the more units you force to be warped into the main the less there are in the battle.
- EMP chargelots - If you can use vikings to kill all the colossi in the first engagement effectively, save some of your EMPs rather than blanketing the P army in them right away. An EMP on the warped in chargelots can win you the game. Every terran worth their ladder rank can micro around just psi-storms, it's doing it with zealots around that are the problem. Forget catching every HT with the EMP, get the new chargelots and marginally kite your way to victory
- Stagger your army - Split vs chargelots the same way you would vs banelings.
These aren't exceptionally difficult strategies. You terrans can do them in the lower leagues (<diamond) and they'll beat lower league protoss opponents.
Oh yea, Battlecruisers are actually good vs Protoss. Stop whining about how Terran T3 sucks if you won't use them. They even transition really well from bio play, since you've been upgrading your air weapons for vikings anyways and will have banked a shit ton of gas. (and once again, MVP in the GSL finals can be used as a pretty good example, or Lynna's meching protoss cry thread )
Strategies do exist to try to play around it, stop bitching that your t1 composition isn't winning a 20 minute game. Even zergs don't complain about that.
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It's way too rare to see a player argue against his or her own race's claim to balance. Until it's not rare, it'll be hard to take these discussions seriously.
And when I see things like "You protoss/terran/zerg ...." it kills me. You aren't a zerg/terran planetary colonist/protoss in real life -- just calm down.
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On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has...
I'm glad you asked!
Here's how I know Terran early game is fine:
If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error.
So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die.
If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work.
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On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work.
Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply.
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The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup.
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"That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play." - Well great, but the problem is that good play doesn't really overcome imbalances. Current state is I kill you with my imba before you can kill me with your's...
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On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup.
I think terran really need to start thinking about using more ravens in a late game situation. Auto turret adds huge dps, and point defense lowers Protoss dps.
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On May 22 2012 02:21 Smancer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. I think terran really need to start thinking about using more ravens in a late game situation. Auto turret adds huge dps, and point defense lowers Protoss dps.
I think you overestimate the usefulness of Ravens. Auto-Turrets only have huge DPS if theres like 10-15 of them 2-3 don't do anything at all. PDD only works on Stalkers and is stationary. Raven just don't work well with Bio in general even in TvT or TvZ they have stationary abilities and Bio lives off its mobility . Especially in TvP with all the kiting all the stationary abilities don't really help. Ravens are good with Mech since Mech makes you fortify positions and you don't really need to move or even can move but Mech well sucks badly in TvP.
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On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup.
Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle.
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On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply.
At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?
On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle.
But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp.
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EPT
