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Designing a race to only be good in the early/mid game is just poor game design. There's nothing that can make up for that.
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guys srsly, you are talking to each other but about different subject. YOU HAVE TO CLARIFY ! are you talking about TOP PRO GAMER TvP or about STANDARD LADDER games. I see some people arguing how toss is op clearly talking about ladder and others answering with MKP DRG SQUIRTLE and so on. Please clarify between yourself if you are talking about ladder or pro gaming it is NOT THE SAME!
Blizzard has both parts in their statement!
But this discussion cannot go on like this ....
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On May 22 2012 02:58 ntssauce wrote:
guys srsly, you are talking to each other but about different subject. YOU HAVE TO CLARIFY ! are you talking about TOP PRO GAMER TvP or about STANDARD LADDER games. I see some people arguing how toss is op clearly talking about ladder and others answering with MKP DRG SQUIRTLE and so on. Please clarify between yourself if you are talking about ladder or pro gaming it is NOT THE SAME!
Blizzard has both parts in their statement!
But this discussion cannot go on like this ....
What do you mean by standard ladder?
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On May 22 2012 02:46 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply. At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle. But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp.
When was the last time this was even tried ? There's in influx in cheese and 1-Base pushes from Terran in TvP because people look to avoid late game any way possible. Proxy Gates and 1 Base pushes would work very well if the Terran Metagame was super greedy . But it isn't its finding a way to react to the greedy Protoss openings and not having to deal with lategame protoss.
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On May 22 2012 03:09 Smancer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:58 ntssauce wrote:
guys srsly, you are talking to each other but about different subject. YOU HAVE TO CLARIFY ! are you talking about TOP PRO GAMER TvP or about STANDARD LADDER games. I see some people arguing how toss is op clearly talking about ladder and others answering with MKP DRG SQUIRTLE and so on. Please clarify between yourself if you are talking about ladder or pro gaming it is NOT THE SAME!
Blizzard has both parts in their statement!
But this discussion cannot go on like this .... What do you mean by standard ladder?
well there is a huge gap between ladder and the very best... so i mean everything but the best as i said!
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United States301 Posts
On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle.
When I say DPS, I mean splash damage other than tanks.
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On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I'm glad you asked!
Here's how I know Terran early game is fine:
If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error.
So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die.
If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work.
First of all, latest stats released by Blizz show 50(Korea)-54-56% winrate in the TvP MU in favour of Protoss, not 50/50 across all regions.
What's more, do you know what's the average game length? For several events I checked on Liqupedia it was around 11-12 minutes. Is that a late game? No. So according to your logic it should favor Terran. How come it doesn't?
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On May 21 2012 17:08 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:05 Fencer710 wrote:How is this thread still alive? I don't even... Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this. Terran T2 is made to either support the T1, or counter the opponent's T3. Ghosts both support Bio and counter Archons and HT's. Vikings counter Colossus, and occasionally support the Bio after the Colossus are cleaned up. Contrary to popular belief, it's completely possible to almost never attack in TvP with MMMVG and still win. You have to get a lot of Vikings and Ghosts though, and PF's and macro Orbitals. Those are very underrated. it doesnt have to be that way though if feedback was removed tonite mech would be 100% viable tomorrow
50% (or even 25%) damage to Massive or Mechanical with Feedback. The other roles of Feedback are too important.
Also, Mech is not viable in TvP(Without turtling ala Lyyna) not because Feedback is so strong, but because Protoss has so strong cliff circumventing units, namely the Warp Prism, which warps in a *** ton of Zealots and or other units, and the Blinkstalker/Colossus composition, which you can entirely circumvent cliffs with.
An example of this is White-Ra vs Trimaster in the Mech Day9 Daily. Colossus and Blinkstalkers are just so strong as counter attack options, that Mech crumbles.
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On May 22 2012 03:22 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I'm glad you asked!
Here's how I know Terran early game is fine:
If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error.
So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die.
If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. First of all, latest stats released by Blizz show 50(Korea)-54-56% winrate in the TvP MU in favour of Protoss, not 50/50 across all regions. What's more, do you know what's the average game length? For several events I checked on Liqupedia it was around 11-12 minutes. Is that a late game? No. So according to your logic it should favor Terran. How come it doesn't?
There are a number of Protoss all-in's and Immortal busts that can end the game early, as well as failed Terran all-in's that can contribute to the low average minute count.
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On May 22 2012 02:50 SilentCrono wrote:
Designing a race to only be good in the early/mid game is just poor game design. There's nothing that can make up for that.
Going 1 Barracks FE into 3 Barracks compared to something like LastShadow's CC first into 6 Barracks opening feels a bit all-in after I switched back to it from going 1 Barracks FE into various unit-heavy openings rather than the standard 3 Rax Starport, though it is arguably the safest opening aside from 1 Barracks FE into 4 or 5 Barracks. I think the reason for this is that the Starport, Factory, and Gas needed to tech to said Starport, costs so many Minerals that you can't get a very early third base, as well as going up to 5 or 6 Barracks. You have to choose one or the other, and delay the other by a minute or so, which is very important.
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On May 22 2012 03:11 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply. At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle. But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp. When was the last time this was even tried ? There's in influx in cheese and 1-Base pushes from Terran in TvP because people look to avoid late game any way possible. Proxy Gates and 1 Base pushes would work very well if the Terran Metagame was super greedy . But it isn't its finding a way to react to the greedy Protoss openings and not having to deal with lategame protoss.
I used to do 1 Barracks FE into 3 OC opener, but the Squirtle push, 3Gate Void, and 3Gate Blink all crush it. Warpgate makes Terran extremely vulnerable to all-ins due to proxy pylons, which negate half of the Defender's advantage, and cliff circumventing strategies are hell to hold off when you have only a couple of un-upgraded Marines and a few Bunkers.
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On May 22 2012 04:20 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 03:22 Endrew wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I'm glad you asked!
Here's how I know Terran early game is fine:
If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error.
So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die.
If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. First of all, latest stats released by Blizz show 50(Korea)-54-56% winrate in the TvP MU in favour of Protoss, not 50/50 across all regions. What's more, do you know what's the average game length? For several events I checked on Liqupedia it was around 11-12 minutes. Is that a late game? No. So according to your logic it should favor Terran. How come it doesn't? There are a number of Protoss all-in's and Immortal busts that can end the game early, as well as failed Terran all-in's that can contribute to the low average minute count.
yeah, but there is a reason, protoss don't do that.
if a protoss all-in fails, he will lose 95% against a good player.
if a terran player all-in fails, he will usually still have traded well enough by terran design (all units are cost effective) and can catch up thanks to mules and strong defensive options.
Not protoss, not zerg has that luxury.
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i bet if you were to sit MVP, naniwa, incontrol (he sucks i know but game knowledge is there), genius, MC, hero, squirtle, MMA, ganzi, polt to a table to discuss if there really is a problem with feedback and lategame terran i am so damn sure it would be unanimous that they all agree there is some degree of a problem there and a fix would help the matchup alot
ugh dammit blizzard why you so slow at fixing this glaring problem
THERES A FRICKING REASON why thors and bc's are unusable lategame TvP\
heck, carriers will start to see some use once mech/thors become common. carriers+storm+collossi is one of the stronger comps against mech.
my idea is to add a energy shutdown option to thors and BC's. give thors and BC's an option that can be turned on or off, and when energy shutdown is turned on it stops generating energy on the thor/bc and slowly removes energy
If feedback is removed, thors and BC's WILL BECOME OVERPOWERED against toss. strike cannons and yamato are mathematically overpowered without feedback to counter it
So my energy shutdown option is the perfect idea because it allows terran to be safe against feedback at the cost of not using their spells thus it doesnt create the overpowered effect of strike cannons and yamato. If the game is extremely back and forth with low ht/energy counts for the toss, then the terran can turn on energy generation and maybe in a back and forth game the terran can use his spells to get an advantage if the toss doesnt feedback them properly
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On May 22 2012 03:11 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply. At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle. But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp. When was the last time this was even tried ? There's in influx in cheese and 1-Base pushes from Terran in TvP because people look to avoid late game any way possible. Proxy Gates and 1 Base pushes would work very well if the Terran Metagame was super greedy . But it isn't its finding a way to react to the greedy Protoss openings and not having to deal with lategame protoss.
Define "super greedy". 1 rax CC does not lose to proxy gates. Maybe 14cc does, never occured to me to check. In any case, proxy gates are awful and basically impossible to transition out of, while the likes of 11/11 rax can kill a 1basing player just fine. As for Protoss 1 base pushes, they'd be used if they were any good against standard Terran play. Terrans would still do 1/1/1 back when TvP lategame consisted of the Terran blanket EMPing and stim a-moving over the Protoss army.
Honestly, we both know Terran cheese and all-ins are better off 1 base, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. If you people were correct about the balance of power in this matchup, Protoss would have like a 60%+ winrate in high level games.
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In BW the reason terran was so strong late was becasue there army(tanks) where so imobile and could be abused with good tactics. In sc2 toss has the late game advantage but also has the mobility advantage. Collosus are seiged tanks on legs, there is nothing you can abuse with the collosus. High templar can be warped by a pylon to sit there and storm the t army when ever it passes by. This is the problem, you can't abuse anyting in the toss deathball. Also, drops are less strong late becasue of canon and a ht. In BW toss has the option of using corsair to get past missile turrets, or mass recall.
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On May 22 2012 06:31 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 03:11 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply. At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle. But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp. When was the last time this was even tried ? There's in influx in cheese and 1-Base pushes from Terran in TvP because people look to avoid late game any way possible. Proxy Gates and 1 Base pushes would work very well if the Terran Metagame was super greedy . But it isn't its finding a way to react to the greedy Protoss openings and not having to deal with lategame protoss. Define "super greedy". 1 rax CC does not lose to proxy gates. Maybe 14cc does, never occured to me to check. In any case, proxy gates are awful and basically impossible to transition out of, while the likes of 11/11 rax can kill a 1basing player just fine. As for Protoss 1 base pushes, they'd be used if they were any good against standard Terran play. Terrans would still do 1/1/1 back when TvP lategame consisted of the Terran blanket EMPing and stim a-moving over the Protoss army. Honestly, we both know Terran cheese and all-ins are better off 1 base, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. If you people were correct about the balance of power in this matchup, Protoss would have like a 60%+ winrate in high level games.
No. Blink stalker all in beats any expo terran, it's almost auto win on some maps. The 4 gate warp prism was another 4 gate varient that worked well. T 1-1-1 is good, but can be easily stoped with the right unit composition, like t has to do late.
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On May 22 2012 06:44 WaKai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 06:31 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 03:11 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply. At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle. But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp. When was the last time this was even tried ? There's in influx in cheese and 1-Base pushes from Terran in TvP because people look to avoid late game any way possible. Proxy Gates and 1 Base pushes would work very well if the Terran Metagame was super greedy . But it isn't its finding a way to react to the greedy Protoss openings and not having to deal with lategame protoss. Define "super greedy". 1 rax CC does not lose to proxy gates. Maybe 14cc does, never occured to me to check. In any case, proxy gates are awful and basically impossible to transition out of, while the likes of 11/11 rax can kill a 1basing player just fine. As for Protoss 1 base pushes, they'd be used if they were any good against standard Terran play. Terrans would still do 1/1/1 back when TvP lategame consisted of the Terran blanket EMPing and stim a-moving over the Protoss army. Honestly, we both know Terran cheese and all-ins are better off 1 base, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. If you people were correct about the balance of power in this matchup, Protoss would have like a 60%+ winrate in high level games. No. Blink stalker all in beats any expo terran, it's almost auto win on some maps. The 4 gate warp prism was another 4 gate varient that worked well. T 1-1-1 is good, but can be easily stoped with the right unit composition, like t has to do late.
What does that even mean? There is a build that beats any terran build that involves an expansion? Does zerg have one of these too? Maybe if the terran does't scout at all. Also, 4 gate warp prism is counting on your opponent being bad or not scouting at all. I mean, how hard it is to see there is no protoss expansion.
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On May 22 2012 06:44 WaKai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 06:31 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 03:11 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply. At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle. But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp. When was the last time this was even tried ? There's in influx in cheese and 1-Base pushes from Terran in TvP because people look to avoid late game any way possible. Proxy Gates and 1 Base pushes would work very well if the Terran Metagame was super greedy . But it isn't its finding a way to react to the greedy Protoss openings and not having to deal with lategame protoss. Define "super greedy". 1 rax CC does not lose to proxy gates. Maybe 14cc does, never occured to me to check. In any case, proxy gates are awful and basically impossible to transition out of, while the likes of 11/11 rax can kill a 1basing player just fine. As for Protoss 1 base pushes, they'd be used if they were any good against standard Terran play. Terrans would still do 1/1/1 back when TvP lategame consisted of the Terran blanket EMPing and stim a-moving over the Protoss army. Honestly, we both know Terran cheese and all-ins are better off 1 base, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. If you people were correct about the balance of power in this matchup, Protoss would have like a 60%+ winrate in high level games. No. Blink stalker all in beats any expo terran, it's almost auto win on some maps. The 4 gate warp prism was another 4 gate varient that worked well. T 1-1-1 is good, but can be easily stoped with the right unit composition, like t has to do late.
It's a pity all those Korean Protosses don't have you to coach them, or they'd have a 100% win rate against Terrans, who stubbornly do these unsafe expo builds every game.
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On May 22 2012 07:17 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 06:44 WaKai wrote:On May 22 2012 06:31 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 03:11 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2012 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 22 2012 00:13 Endrew wrote:On May 21 2012 23:19 Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure toss will be happy to accept a late game AOE nerf, if its accompanied by an early game Terran nerf. Please enlighten me how is Terran stronger in early game these days? Tosses got all the timings figured out, unless they do some huge fuckup you won't be able to damage/kill them with any build T has... I'm glad you asked! Here's how I know Terran early game is fine: If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error. So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die. If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. Terran early game is before Stim and Medivacs and at that point you can't really do much with your units unless your opponent techs too fast or expands way to greedy. Terran is strong in the midgame once Stim and/or Medivacs are out before that Gateway Units dominate Bio on even supply. At Terran can cheese quite effectively. When was the last time you've seen proxy gates or even a 1 base all-in win a PvT?On May 22 2012 02:30 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On May 22 2012 02:08 morevox wrote:
The problem isn't Protoss, it's that Terran needs lategame DPS. Something to even up the matchup. Do you even play SC2? Terran bio balls have BY FAR the highest DPS in the game. Protoss lategame is a problem because of all the AOE eg Templars, archons and collys in combination with the ability to instantly warp in 20+ zealots in the middle of a battle. But it's not a problem in PvZ, because Zerg actually use units that don't die to half a storm like Marines do. It's arguably a problem in PvP, but that's more Protoss lacking anti-air which isn't shit. You don't see Storm in PvP at all, because, again, it's not that good against units with a lot of hp. When was the last time this was even tried ? There's in influx in cheese and 1-Base pushes from Terran in TvP because people look to avoid late game any way possible. Proxy Gates and 1 Base pushes would work very well if the Terran Metagame was super greedy . But it isn't its finding a way to react to the greedy Protoss openings and not having to deal with lategame protoss. Define "super greedy". 1 rax CC does not lose to proxy gates. Maybe 14cc does, never occured to me to check. In any case, proxy gates are awful and basically impossible to transition out of, while the likes of 11/11 rax can kill a 1basing player just fine. As for Protoss 1 base pushes, they'd be used if they were any good against standard Terran play. Terrans would still do 1/1/1 back when TvP lategame consisted of the Terran blanket EMPing and stim a-moving over the Protoss army. Honestly, we both know Terran cheese and all-ins are better off 1 base, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. If you people were correct about the balance of power in this matchup, Protoss would have like a 60%+ winrate in high level games. No. Blink stalker all in beats any expo terran, it's almost auto win on some maps. The 4 gate warp prism was another 4 gate varient that worked well. T 1-1-1 is good, but can be easily stoped with the right unit composition, like t has to do late. It's a pity all those Korean Protosses don't have you to coach them, or they'd have a 100% win rate against Terrans, who stubbornly do these unsafe expo builds every game.
Almost auto win, the terran player just has to micro really well in order to hold. Which players like mvp and mkp have, this is why they don't do it in pro games.
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EPT
