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On May 21 2012 21:59 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 21:41 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. BC/Tank/Thor is way too slow . You move out with that to try and kill an expo and you will lose your production or all your mining bases ( or both ). Then you get your units slowly sniped off. If you only fight head-on yes protoss might lose but that'd be kinda stupid ? And btw Zealots don't ever melt to tankfire they take 3-5 tankshots to be killed thats alot 30-40 Zealots will just eat a tank/thors for breakfast. And the BC's can't kill them fast enough if they even reach the Zealot because they're so slow. If you lose to Mech as Toss you play wrong against it. Its very very vulnerable and weak on most current maps . It can work on 1-2 of the Maps since there's only 1-2 places to defend to hold 4-6 bases. On other Maps the Toss will just pull you apart if you don't play Bio. Right, I forgot how fast Colossi/Mothership and Broodlords are in comparison. You either get a fast army or a power-army, that is it. Terrans go for the fast army and cry imba when they are a little bit weaker in straight up fights.
Gateway/colossus is super mobile, especially compared to mech. Colossi move at the "default" speed (2.25) and can walk over cliffs - and do a ridiculous amount of damage without much effort. Gatway units - stalkers/zealots are highly mobile, especially with their blink/charge upgrades and don't forget that they can be built anywhere on the map - I mean, come on, a lot of times protoss can reinforce to terrans front faster than terran can even though his production is all the way on the other side of taldarim alter.
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On May 21 2012 22:01 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 21:59 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 21:41 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. BC/Tank/Thor is way too slow . You move out with that to try and kill an expo and you will lose your production or all your mining bases ( or both ). Then you get your units slowly sniped off. If you only fight head-on yes protoss might lose but that'd be kinda stupid ? And btw Zealots don't ever melt to tankfire they take 3-5 tankshots to be killed thats alot 30-40 Zealots will just eat a tank/thors for breakfast. And the BC's can't kill them fast enough if they even reach the Zealot because they're so slow. If you lose to Mech as Toss you play wrong against it. Its very very vulnerable and weak on most current maps . It can work on 1-2 of the Maps since there's only 1-2 places to defend to hold 4-6 bases. On other Maps the Toss will just pull you apart if you don't play Bio. Right, I forgot how fast Colossi/Mothership and Broodlords are in comparison. You either get a fast army or a power-army, that is it. Terrans go for the fast army and cry imba when they are a little bit weaker in straight up fights. If you go Mech/BC your whole army is slow not just a few units ( well other than Helions but Helions don't kill expos and will get useless to kill workers once enough canons are up ) . You can't just mix in a few Bio units if you go mech and BC's your whole army will be behind so much on upgrades that you will just get rolled .
Yeah I think you just do not want to give it a thought and search for random excuses why it has to fail.
Here are reasons why you do not at all make an argument:
If Protoss builds 5-6 Cannons in every single base, your Harras has already done a ton of damage.
A handfull of stimmed Marauders kill a Nexus really fast, even without upgrades, IF you really want to do that.
Which you absolutely do not have to since your goal is to get a unstoppable army that wins with one pushover. LIKE the Protoss "Deathball" everyone complains about.
I know that I don't provide a ton of different openings and perfect ways to transition into this army, while being safe... That is because I am not a million Terran players. I simply cannot figure all of that out within less than a few months...
However searching the strategy forums I saw a ton of threads exploring air-only builds, Warpprisms, the different usabilities of Motherships, DTs etc etc etc.
Most Terran threads are: "Here is why Terran has to go Bio and lose" (Obviously not the exact wording but the essence)..
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On May 21 2012 20:55 tdt wrote:
I don't see how ppl can whine about toss late when Zerg's is way more powerful. Unless Toss gets a dumb Zerg who doesnt spread and catches a lucky vortex or Terran just does crazy drops and catches GGlords by themseves Zerg are easily the best late game race. I admit Toss is strong but they should be once they hit 200 due to highest cost in the game. All that needs to happen is shorter maps and not so easy 3rds like poster said above. Solves letting Zerg and Toss getting out of hand.
The difference between late game Zerg and Toss? The zerg has to respawn twice his army to kill you, the toss just amoves you to death losing 10 psi in a 200 vs 200 psi battle. And even if you win the battle, well, there is the 2000 mineral warp in of pure zeaAlot.
Toss late game has ton of splash damage (archon + colossi + templar) and almost infinite hp (warp in of zeaAlot). You can outmicro/outmacro/outplay a zerg. You cannot win against toss in late game, ever. You can win only if he leaves the cpu for more than 10 minutes. Toss is broken in late game, that's it. 20 apm race.
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On May 21 2012 22:09 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:05 Applesqt wrote:
That requires so much gas that you should be able to kill the Terran before he gets it. BCs take so long to build as well that there's a huge gap where he has is easily killable because of how expensive it is to produce more than one BC at a time. You can also just trade units very easily while expanding a lot, just get a good gateway count and remax quickly. Archons are also very good vs mech because of how much damage they can tank even if they have emp, but if they went for emp then they shouldn't of been able to afford the BC's meaning that you don't need any anti-air. Turtling behind PF's while sacking SCV's won't leave terran vulnerable.
And how do you do that on most of the current Map while taking enough bases to finance your army ? PF's alone don't hold off an army .
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On May 21 2012 22:13 Gantritor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:55 tdt wrote:
I don't see how ppl can whine about toss late when Zerg's is way more powerful. Unless Toss gets a dumb Zerg who doesnt spread and catches a lucky vortex or Terran just does crazy drops and catches GGlords by themseves Zerg are easily the best late game race. I admit Toss is strong but they should be once they hit 200 due to highest cost in the game. All that needs to happen is shorter maps and not so easy 3rds like poster said above. Solves letting Zerg and Toss getting out of hand. The difference between late game Zerg and Toss? The zerg has to respawn twice his army to kill you, the toss just amoves you to death losing 10 psi in a 200 vs 200 psi battle. And even if you win the battle, well, there is the 2000 mineral warp in of pure zeaAlot. Toss late game has ton of splash damage (archon + colossi + templar) and almost infinite hp (warp in of zeaAlot). You can outmicro/outmacro/outplay a zerg. You cannot win against toss in late game, ever. You can win only if he leaves the cpu for more than 10 minutes. Toss is broken in late game, that's it. 20 apm race.
Yeah that sounds reasonable thank you for commenting.
So Broodlord Infestor has to max twice in order to kill?
How is a flying siege unit with great DPS that spawns smaller units AND is unreachable due to Fungal Growth so bad that it cannot kill units??
You just blindly hate because you find it most convenient, stop and think..
That is my experience with most people that claim imbalance ruins their life..
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On May 21 2012 22:12 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:01 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 21:59 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 21:41 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. BC/Tank/Thor is way too slow . You move out with that to try and kill an expo and you will lose your production or all your mining bases ( or both ). Then you get your units slowly sniped off. If you only fight head-on yes protoss might lose but that'd be kinda stupid ? And btw Zealots don't ever melt to tankfire they take 3-5 tankshots to be killed thats alot 30-40 Zealots will just eat a tank/thors for breakfast. And the BC's can't kill them fast enough if they even reach the Zealot because they're so slow. If you lose to Mech as Toss you play wrong against it. Its very very vulnerable and weak on most current maps . It can work on 1-2 of the Maps since there's only 1-2 places to defend to hold 4-6 bases. On other Maps the Toss will just pull you apart if you don't play Bio. Right, I forgot how fast Colossi/Mothership and Broodlords are in comparison. You either get a fast army or a power-army, that is it. Terrans go for the fast army and cry imba when they are a little bit weaker in straight up fights. If you go Mech/BC your whole army is slow not just a few units ( well other than Helions but Helions don't kill expos and will get useless to kill workers once enough canons are up ) . You can't just mix in a few Bio units if you go mech and BC's your whole army will be behind so much on upgrades that you will just get rolled . Yeah I think you just do not want to give it a thought and search for random excuses why it has to fail. Here are reasons why you do not at all make an argument: If Protoss builds 5-6 Cannons in every single base, your Harras has already done a ton of damage. A handfull of stimmed Marauders kill a Nexus really fast, even without upgrades, IF you really want to do that. Which you absolutely do not have to since your goal is to get a unstoppable army that wins with one pushover. LIKE the Protoss "Deathball" everyone complains about. I know that I don't provide a ton of different openings and perfect ways to transition into this army, while being safe... That is because I am not a million Terran players. I simply cannot figure all of that out within less than a few months... However searching the strategy forums I saw a ton of threads exploring air-only builds, Warpprisms, the different usabilities of Motherships, DTs etc etc etc. Most Terran threads are: "Here is why Terran has to go Bio and lose" (Obviously not the exact wording but the essence)..
Every halfway decent Terran has tried just about everything by now the game is almost 2 years old. There is a reason this doesn't work . You obviosly never tried to use it before. This only works if the opponent is clueless .
Go out win with it if you think its that strong. You won't because its not.
There is a reason we rarely see anything but Bio these days. The rest requires your opponent to suck and have no idea what to do against it.
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On May 21 2012 22:16 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:14 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 22:09 monkybone wrote:On May 21 2012 22:05 Applesqt wrote:
That requires so much gas that you should be able to kill the Terran before he gets it. BCs take so long to build as well that there's a huge gap where he has is easily killable because of how expensive it is to produce more than one BC at a time. You can also just trade units very easily while expanding a lot, just get a good gateway count and remax quickly. Archons are also very good vs mech because of how much damage they can tank even if they have emp, but if they went for emp then they shouldn't of been able to afford the BC's meaning that you don't need any anti-air. Turtling behind PF's while sacking SCV's won't leave terran vulnerable. And how do you do that on most of the current Map while taking enough bases to finance your army ? You do it when you have been maxed for a while and have banked a lot of resources. Of course you don't transition into BC's WHILE taking expansions. And you don't sack your entire army to start building BC's, you gradually sack it. Protoss may be strong, but not so much against a turtling terran.
obviously you cannot rush blindly to three bases with little units against a 2base all-in.
I never said this could be a strategy that works against everything and always wins ever (which obviously is what most of you look for, but does not exist)
You can play this style against a rather passive Protoss, you can transition a bit more slowly while drop harrassing, hell you can try and contain protoss with Viking+Raven+Cloaked Banshee for all I care but please Terrans of the world do not claim that Terran while admittedly having the stronger midgame has no chance to take bases in the midgame.
All you want is other people to tell you that you are right and Terran just can't win any games. (over 400 days without a Protoss winning the GSL, under 10 days without a Terran winning the GSL, what up?)
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I've actually been doing mech into Thor/BC in TvP the past couple of weeks (against mostly mid to high Masters). It can feel really strong, but it can also feel like you're winning primarily because Protosses aren't used to playing against it and just don't know how to deal with it (eg. half the Protosses I play go mass Archon for some reason... Thors and BCs aren't biological guys...).
When you come up against someone who either has practice against it, has a head on their shoulders, or just does a few of the right things by luck, the whole thing can just fall apart and feel like it should never win a game.
(I never have trouble against 2 base Colossus all-ins though, those are currently considered free wins for me.)
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On May 21 2012 22:16 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:14 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 22:09 monkybone wrote:On May 21 2012 22:05 Applesqt wrote:
That requires so much gas that you should be able to kill the Terran before he gets it. BCs take so long to build as well that there's a huge gap where he has is easily killable because of how expensive it is to produce more than one BC at a time. You can also just trade units very easily while expanding a lot, just get a good gateway count and remax quickly. Archons are also very good vs mech because of how much damage they can tank even if they have emp, but if they went for emp then they shouldn't of been able to afford the BC's meaning that you don't need any anti-air. Turtling behind PF's while sacking SCV's won't leave terran vulnerable. And how do you do that on most of the current Map while taking enough bases to finance your army ? You do it when you have been maxed for a while and have banked a lot of resources. Of course you don't transition into BC's WHILE taking expansions. And you don't sack your entire army to start building BC's, you gradually sack it. Protoss may be strong, but not so much against a turtling terran.
You can add BC with Bio if you upgrade your air well for Colossi and that can work. The clown here that claims you should play mech and than add BC's obviosly has no clue what he is talking about. You can't take enough bases safely with mech to finance all this and can't kill any outlaying expos without exposing yourself to get countered and taking more damage than you deal ( because your army is by far slower and doesn't really reeinforce ).
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On May 21 2012 22:25 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
I've actually been doing mech into Thor/BC in TvP the past couple of weeks (against mostly mid to high Masters). It can feel really strong, but it can also feel like you're winning primarily because Protosses aren't used to playing against it and just don't know how to deal with it (eg. half the Protosses I play go mass Archon for some reason... Thors and BCs aren't biological guys...).
When you come up against someone who either has practice against it, has a head on their shoulders, or just does a few of the right things by luck, the whole thing can just fall apart and feel like it should never win a game.
(I never have trouble against 2 base Colossus all-ins though, those are currently considered free wins for me.)
This is exactly what i mean. I played it myself hell i even won a few games with it. But it only works if your opponent reacts totally wrong else its a free loss.
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^Looks like a misquote.
On May 21 2012 22:19 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:12 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 22:01 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 21:59 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 21:41 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 21:31 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 21 2012 16:55 kyllinghest wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle. I play pretty high Master and I gotta say I love the Terrans that just blindly go for Bio because it is what you "are supposed to do". I get stomped by weird looking combos like Tank Thor BC. I played that opponnent a couple of times in CGs afterwards and I gotta say he sucked, constantly overmins, some supply blocks. But you can turtle to three bases NP using Tanks. Then what is Protoss supposed to do? Stalkers just Melt vs Tank/Thor. Void Rays suck vs BC thor because they cluster a lot! I actually dealt with the ground forces a couple of times but I had nothing left to fight the BCs.. Add a few Ghosts to that to negate all shields and you got a lategame hightier tech army that Protoss can only deal with by a good Vortex, something that ALWAYS requires the Terran/Zerg to make a mistake. Also you can EMP the Mothership as far as I know. BCs are actally really good vs everything Protoss has except Void Rays, but those die to Thors pretty hard. I think BC/Thor/Ghost could be the Terran "Deathball". People hardly ever try that and I don't understand why.. Or try Tank/Ghost/thor with some Marine drops... You can EMP Immortals/Phoenix and Thors buffer Zealots which then melt to tankfire, as do Stalkers, Colossi, shieldless Immortals and basically everything that is on the ground. Since Protoss was created without air Units that could be a good strat too. TL;DR Terran has Factories and Starports, those can build more than Medivacs and Vikings... as long as this hasen't happened don't give me your imba-cries. BC/Tank/Thor is way too slow . You move out with that to try and kill an expo and you will lose your production or all your mining bases ( or both ). Then you get your units slowly sniped off. If you only fight head-on yes protoss might lose but that'd be kinda stupid ? And btw Zealots don't ever melt to tankfire they take 3-5 tankshots to be killed thats alot 30-40 Zealots will just eat a tank/thors for breakfast. And the BC's can't kill them fast enough if they even reach the Zealot because they're so slow. If you lose to Mech as Toss you play wrong against it. Its very very vulnerable and weak on most current maps . It can work on 1-2 of the Maps since there's only 1-2 places to defend to hold 4-6 bases. On other Maps the Toss will just pull you apart if you don't play Bio. Right, I forgot how fast Colossi/Mothership and Broodlords are in comparison. You either get a fast army or a power-army, that is it. Terrans go for the fast army and cry imba when they are a little bit weaker in straight up fights. If you go Mech/BC your whole army is slow not just a few units ( well other than Helions but Helions don't kill expos and will get useless to kill workers once enough canons are up ) . You can't just mix in a few Bio units if you go mech and BC's your whole army will be behind so much on upgrades that you will just get rolled . Yeah I think you just do not want to give it a thought and search for random excuses why it has to fail. Here are reasons why you do not at all make an argument: If Protoss builds 5-6 Cannons in every single base, your Harras has already done a ton of damage. A handfull of stimmed Marauders kill a Nexus really fast, even without upgrades, IF you really want to do that. Which you absolutely do not have to since your goal is to get a unstoppable army that wins with one pushover. LIKE the Protoss "Deathball" everyone complains about. I know that I don't provide a ton of different openings and perfect ways to transition into this army, while being safe... That is because I am not a million Terran players. I simply cannot figure all of that out within less than a few months... However searching the strategy forums I saw a ton of threads exploring air-only builds, Warpprisms, the different usabilities of Motherships, DTs etc etc etc. Most Terran threads are: "Here is why Terran has to go Bio and lose" (Obviously not the exact wording but the essence).. Every halfway decent Terran has tried just about everything by now the game is almost 2 years old. There is a reason this doesn't work . You obviosly never tried to use it before. This only works if the opponent is clueless . Go out win with it if you think its that strong. You won't because its not. There is a reason we rarely see anything but Bio these days. The rest requires your opponent to suck and have no idea what to do against it.
I don't think Terran has tried everything just yet, but the issue vs Mech goes beyond compositions issues, it's design problems as well. A 200/200 deathball vs deathball scenario is very volitale. I'm a passionate Mecher in all match-ups but I stopped doing it because it is extremely unforgiving and relies so heavily on map design.
And despite popular belief, Bio is actually stronger than Mech. Not in raw damage, but in DPS. The strength of Mech is in it's Defense. They're high HP, long-ranged units with tons of splash damage. However, Protoss is specifically designed to handle splash damage cost effectively. However, DPS is Toss' weakness in design. Immortals cries like little girls when going up against stimmed Marines and Zealots get bombarded when Marines are upgraded very well. This is why Protoss get Colossus and High Templar while Zealot/Archon has sort of gotten phased out of the metagame. It's to deal with the Marines before they can destroy the Protoss army, and Zealot/Archon is too slow with dealing with that (once Terrans found out that Marauders actually suck against anything not Stalker or Colossus).
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On May 21 2012 22:17 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:13 Gantritor wrote:On May 21 2012 20:55 tdt wrote:
I don't see how ppl can whine about toss late when Zerg's is way more powerful. Unless Toss gets a dumb Zerg who doesnt spread and catches a lucky vortex or Terran just does crazy drops and catches GGlords by themseves Zerg are easily the best late game race. I admit Toss is strong but they should be once they hit 200 due to highest cost in the game. All that needs to happen is shorter maps and not so easy 3rds like poster said above. Solves letting Zerg and Toss getting out of hand. The difference between late game Zerg and Toss? The zerg has to respawn twice his army to kill you, the toss just amoves you to death losing 10 psi in a 200 vs 200 psi battle. And even if you win the battle, well, there is the 2000 mineral warp in of pure zeaAlot. Toss late game has ton of splash damage (archon + colossi + templar) and almost infinite hp (warp in of zeaAlot). You can outmicro/outmacro/outplay a zerg. You cannot win against toss in late game, ever. You can win only if he leaves the cpu for more than 10 minutes. Toss is broken in late game, that's it. 20 apm race. Yeah that sounds reasonable thank you for commenting. So Broodlord Infestor has to max twice in order to kill? How is a flying siege unit with great DPS that spawns smaller units AND is unreachable due to Fungal Growth so bad that it cannot kill units?? You just blindly hate because you find it most convenient, stop and think.. That is my experience with most people that claim imbalance ruins their life..
Infestors broodlord is a slow combo, you can outmicro the zerg with ghosts, vikings and marines. The toss deathball is pure 1amoveness into terran gg. You can't understand 'cause you are toss, but you can actually micro units, you know?
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On May 21 2012 22:31 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:28 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 22:16 monkybone wrote:On May 21 2012 22:14 s3rp wrote:On May 21 2012 22:09 monkybone wrote:On May 21 2012 22:05 Applesqt wrote:
That requires so much gas that you should be able to kill the Terran before he gets it. BCs take so long to build as well that there's a huge gap where he has is easily killable because of how expensive it is to produce more than one BC at a time. You can also just trade units very easily while expanding a lot, just get a good gateway count and remax quickly. Archons are also very good vs mech because of how much damage they can tank even if they have emp, but if they went for emp then they shouldn't of been able to afford the BC's meaning that you don't need any anti-air. Turtling behind PF's while sacking SCV's won't leave terran vulnerable. And how do you do that on most of the current Map while taking enough bases to finance your army ? You do it when you have been maxed for a while and have banked a lot of resources. Of course you don't transition into BC's WHILE taking expansions. And you don't sack your entire army to start building BC's, you gradually sack it. Protoss may be strong, but not so much against a turtling terran. You can add BC with Bio if you upgrade your air well for Colossi and that can work. The clown here that claims you should play mech and than add BC's obviosly has no clue what he is talking about. You can't take enough bases safely with mech to finance all this and can't kill any outlaying expos without exposing yourself to get countered and taking more damage than you deal ( because your army is by far slower and doesn't really reeinforce ). Well, okay, I guess he assumed I was part of another conversation. Anyway, I just made a post relevant to this discussion arguing for why gradually transitioning into BC's with MMM is a bad strategy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337240¤tpage=368#7355Either you'd want no BC's or no MMM. Some BC's in an MMM army is just less effective than pure MMM or pure BC.
I agree either full BC or full MMM is better but transitioning into full BC is only viable on very few map that only have a few defensive positions that defend several bases if you hold them. You need alot of Gases and Mining to add that many BC's and holding those bases if you need to defend too many spots is not really feasable.
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On May 21 2012 19:31 Checkm8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:32 Panya wrote:Blizzard has recently made a post regarding their outlook on TvP. I have not seen any threads covering it, but it seems to be important enough of an issue in this community for me to make a new topic about it. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1
We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage. That said, we also know that terran players have a lot of offensive capability and harassment options at their fingertips in the mid-game. If terran players press that mid-game advantage, then protoss can’t necessarily get into the late game at their full potential, which can nullify any advantage they might have had. So, pressing that mid-game advantage is important (just as it would be important for protoss players to mitigate mid-game damage so they can to move into the late game in the strongest possible position). Ultimately, each game plays out differently, and depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win.
StarCraft II is designed with asymmetric design principles. We like having these differences between the races, as long as no one race or tactic offers a significant advantage. To put it another way, mirror matches already show us what StarCraft II looks like when both opposing forces have identical strengths at each stage of the game. In non-mirror matches we intentionally work to provide diverse strategies that make use of asymmetric design to produce varied, fun and interesting games, while maintaining excellent overall balance. That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play.
Some people just don't know how to read or comprehend....I placed the txts in bold to emphasize... As what I've read and went through TvP in Brood War is T favored late game, although toss can mitigate the advantage by good positioning, better control (reaver and ht+shutte control), and over-all better preparation as well as mid-game damage. Yet no one complains about that. This time it's protoss who is defensive mid-game, and terran should do damage to lessen or negate advantage of protoss late-game, yet the advantage could still be mitigated by better positioning (better concave, etc.) and control (emps) And if in HotS terran has the advantage all-game (due to the new units), well, I hope terrans could already be satisfied and shut up.
In BW, Protoss has stronger late game, Terran just has more firepower. This balances out quite evenly for the most part, but split map TvP is still slightly in favor of Toss.
In SC2, Protoss has more firepower, more production, and even economy. That's why P lategame is so powerful.
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You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on. Toss is OP late game and is only going to get worse now that the early/mid game is starting to get figured out.
Something needs to be changed, Terran players know it, Toss players know it (even though they won't admit it) even Zerg players know it.
I'm sure blizzard knows it too, they just don't know what to do about it.
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On May 21 2012 23:13 magnaflow wrote:
You know something is wrong when Protoss' only excuse is "look at GSL" They literally have nothing else to fall back on. Toss is OP late game and is only going to get worse now that the early/mid game is starting to get figured out.
Something needs to be changed, Terran players know it, Toss players know it (even though they won't admit it) even Zerg players know it.
I'm sure blizzard knows it too, they just don't know what to do about it.
Wait for HotS. And I'm not even joking.
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EPT
