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On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Terrans would love to have a viable high tier unit, thats kinda the problem. Also don't forget that you often see terrans with more medivacs and ghosts than protoss has colossus, hts and archons. Terrans tech is support units, while protoss tech is frickin powerhouses that singlehandedly can win an entire battle.
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How is this thread still alive? I don't even...
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this. Terran T2 is made to either support the T1, or counter the opponent's T3. Ghosts both support Bio and counter Archons and HT's. Vikings counter Colossus, and occasionally support the Bio after the Colossus are cleaned up.
Contrary to popular belief, it's completely possible to almost never attack in TvP with MMMVG and still win. You have to get a lot of Vikings and Ghosts though, and PF's and macro Orbitals. Those are very underrated.
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On May 21 2012 17:05 Fencer710 wrote:How is this thread still alive? I don't even... Show nested quote +Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this. Terran T2 is made to either support the T1, or counter the opponent's T3. Ghosts both support Bio and counter Archons and HT's. Vikings counter Colossus, and occasionally support the Bio after the Colossus are cleaned up. Contrary to popular belief, it's completely possible to almost never attack in TvP with MMMVG and still win. You have to get a lot of Vikings and Ghosts though, and PF's and macro Orbitals. Those are very underrated.
it doesnt have to be that way though
if feedback was removed tonite mech would be 100% viable tomorrow
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If you remove feedback as a buff to BCs and Thors, you probably need to replace it with something that fulfills feedback's other rolls of niche harass mitigation (medivac, banshee) and caster shutdown (ghosts and especially infestors). Or you need to work in all or some of those options into other units. Not saying it shouldn't happen.
Really protoss already leans really heavily on stalkers for dealing with all four of those. It'd be nice to vary it up a bit, but you'd definitely have to do something if you wanted to pull feedback.
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i think feedback isnt really needed against medivacs/banshees. a smart terran will drop his bio lategame stim once or twice, drain the medivac of energy, pickup, then drop
against banshees most smart terrans (if they actually GO mass banshees which ive seen sometimes in top masters) will actually spamclick cloak on and off to deplete banshee energy to make them immune to feedback
my idea of a spell to replace feedback is at the bottom of last page. i think thats a good idea, or maybe something else. my spell idea would probably help ZvP alot because now if two players are turtling heavy and the toss has 10 HT's or so, every HT that is maxed at 200 energy can now instead be adding bonus health to the protoss army, think of it as utility and power that goes beyond 200 energy since the spell lasts all game
previously when turtling a caster capps at 200 energy, but with my idea templars no longer "capp" at 200 energy because they can just cast psi shields on a voidray, or collossi, or archon, or heck a zealot before they reach 200 energy thus constantly always regenerating energy and turning energy into power
as far as feedback vs infestors, i never really see that as being viable against a good zerg (as a high master toss) and against terran i dont mind losing feedback because we still got storms that decimate bio so who cares. terran could use the buff
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On May 21 2012 17:08 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:05 Fencer710 wrote:How is this thread still alive? I don't even... Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this. Terran T2 is made to either support the T1, or counter the opponent's T3. Ghosts both support Bio and counter Archons and HT's. Vikings counter Colossus, and occasionally support the Bio after the Colossus are cleaned up. Contrary to popular belief, it's completely possible to almost never attack in TvP with MMMVG and still win. You have to get a lot of Vikings and Ghosts though, and PF's and macro Orbitals. Those are very underrated. it doesnt have to be that way though if feedback was removed tonite mech would be 100% viable tomorrow
Wait? You're complaining about a single-target spell, that removes energy - when you have a spell that removes 100 energy + 100 shield in an AoE. And they have the same range. I'd love to give away feedback if terran then lost EMP.
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Just gotta say I disagree with most of your points there. Cloak is scary coming from a lategame skyterran, but late game isn't really even the issue as far as holding off harass while going templar branch first. You don't see terran's move in with drops without medivac energy because they really want the heals going on. If draining your medivacs excessively was standard meta, drops would be pretty weak. Also just about any game you watch where both infestors and ht are out at the same time, you see feedbacks go off. You didn't even mention ghosts.
Feedback is a midgame niche spell that then has a solid lategame function as a caster shutdown. Your replacement is an excessively lategame-oriented ability that gets shut down hard by one of the stronger casters in the game.
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On May 21 2012 17:24 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:08 roymarthyup wrote:On May 21 2012 17:05 Fencer710 wrote:How is this thread still alive? I don't even... Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this. Terran T2 is made to either support the T1, or counter the opponent's T3. Ghosts both support Bio and counter Archons and HT's. Vikings counter Colossus, and occasionally support the Bio after the Colossus are cleaned up. Contrary to popular belief, it's completely possible to almost never attack in TvP with MMMVG and still win. You have to get a lot of Vikings and Ghosts though, and PF's and macro Orbitals. Those are very underrated. it doesnt have to be that way though if feedback was removed tonite mech would be 100% viable tomorrow Wait? You're complaining about a single-target spell, that removes energy - when you have a spell that removes 100 energy + 100 shield in an AoE. And they have the same range. I'd love to give away feedback if terran then lost EMP.
That wouldn't be a fair trade, feedback is comparable to snipe, and any terran would trade snipe for feedback any day.
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On May 21 2012 17:31 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:24 Mentalizor wrote:On May 21 2012 17:08 roymarthyup wrote:On May 21 2012 17:05 Fencer710 wrote:How is this thread still alive? I don't even... Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this. Terran T2 is made to either support the T1, or counter the opponent's T3. Ghosts both support Bio and counter Archons and HT's. Vikings counter Colossus, and occasionally support the Bio after the Colossus are cleaned up. Contrary to popular belief, it's completely possible to almost never attack in TvP with MMMVG and still win. You have to get a lot of Vikings and Ghosts though, and PF's and macro Orbitals. Those are very underrated. it doesnt have to be that way though if feedback was removed tonite mech would be 100% viable tomorrow Wait? You're complaining about a single-target spell, that removes energy - when you have a spell that removes 100 energy + 100 shield in an AoE. And they have the same range. I'd love to give away feedback if terran then lost EMP. That wouldn't be a fair trade, feedback is comparable to snipe, and any terran would trade snipe for feedback any day.
also it has to do with the races and what they got. BC's and thors are buttpounded by feedback all day. EMP does damage and so does storm, if you wait until both armies engage both will get off EMP's and storms so the damage is equal from emp and storm
as a high master toss and i think feedback is a horrible design element and if removed would make the game much better, and can be replaced with another powerful spell
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On May 21 2012 17:28 Resistentialism wrote:
Just gotta say I disagree with most of your points there. Cloak is scary coming from a lategame skyterran, but late game isn't really even the issue as far as holding off harass while going templar branch first. You don't see terran's move in with drops without medivac energy because they really want the heals going on. If draining your medivacs excessively was standard meta, drops would be pretty weak. Also just about any game you watch where both infestors and ht are out at the same time, you see feedbacks go off. You didn't even mention ghosts.
Feedback is a midgame niche spell that then has a solid lategame function as a caster shutdown. Your replacement is an excessively lategame-oriented ability that gets shut down hard by one of the stronger casters in the game.
as protoss i wouldnt mind that my psi shielding idea is heavily countered by EMP, i honestly think terran could use the buff
the terran is taking a risk in keeping energy on his medivacs. i see many terrans deplete their energy, they both have pros and cons
the way i see it when the battle happens thats when emps and storms go off. he cannot emp your templars before the fight, if he tries then your collossi would roast the ghosts. your templar are behind your collossi. we could talk forever about micro wars but in a normal battle the engagement happens then emps and storms go off. in this scenario they both do good damage and i pretty much always have my templars behind my army ready to storm when the battle happens, spending 50energy to kill a ghost when you can spend 75 energy for a storm is a no brainer, the storm is always more powerful
pretty much you seem like either a toss player who thinks feedback is better than it is.... or maybe your just argue'ing that it is good and needed? i dunno really
ive never seen a stephano game where its a even lategame battle of lategame zerg vs lategame toss where his infestors get feedbacked in the fight and it mattered at all. usually the infestors are safe before the battle happens then boom once the battle happens usually the toss has 10 HT, the zerg has 10 infestors, and theres tons of storms and fungals. not really worth it to spend 50 energy to try to feedback a infestor when u can cast a storm for 25 more energy
just saying as a master protoss, losing feedback would almost effect me 0% (other than not being able to destroy thors and bc's like candy. I never even attempt to feedback infestors anymore because its just not worth it if the zerg player is actually good. compared to storm and trying to find his heavily protected infestors storm is the better option. same for trying to feedback in TvP compared to just storming the bio storming the bio is better
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On May 21 2012 10:35 ntssauce wrote:
4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument.
...err actually nowhere near that long ago since he last one. Fun facts:
MVP's two most recent Code S wins were GSL August 2011 and the recent GSL 2012 Season 2 just gone in May. That's 9 months.
Last Protoss GSL win was MC's second at GSL March 2011. Thats 14 months.
Amusingly MVP by himself wins GSL more frequently than the entire Protoss race, as well as having twice as many championships as the entire Protoss race.
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On May 21 2012 15:36 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 15:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 21 2012 15:06 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 15:03 tomatriedes wrote:
MVP won the GSL final, top 3 players at MLG were all zerg and protoss haven't won a major tournament in ages and yet the protoss OP whine never stops. :/ And didn't MVP win the last game with an SCV all-in? And another with a base-trade? That's precisely what this thread is trying to address. Terran has strong early game which compensates for their late game and advantages in situations like base trades which compensates for the late game. That's why the match up is not imbalanced. Neither of which reflect good game design. Its half the reason I can only stand to play one or two games of SC2 a day. Where as I could play BW all night till I pass out. This thread is called "TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard", not TvP Balance.
And what do you think happens to overall balance if you buff terran's late game or nerf protoss? You can't divorce late game balance from overall balance as though it won't affect it at all. The win rates are actually pretty balanced at the moment at the pro level but it seems like the whiner brigade won't be happy until we're back at the 70-30% TvP win rates that we were at last August.
Anyway I guess there's no point in arguing. You've all convinced yourselves that match up is impossible and that statistics from pro level are meaningless while terrans and zergs continue to win all the tournaments. I'm going to try to avoid looking at these kind of threads because it gets me annoyed.
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Removing Feedback is too strong a change, similar to how Blizzard nerfed Snipe to only 25 damage to make it weaker against Ultralisks and Brood Lords. The same result could've been achieved by making the Snipe damage drop to 25 against Massive units.
Thors, BCs, Banshees and Ravens are all mechanical units, why not make it so Feedback does not damage Mechanical units?
It still drains the energy (killing Cloak, Raven energy etc) but it wouldn't nuke the unit itself.
That way Thors and BCs are still useful but still use energy and have to build it up before they can use their abilities.
Ghosts, Infestors, enemy HT and such would still be the same.
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On May 21 2012 18:24 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 15:36 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 15:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 21 2012 15:06 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 21 2012 15:03 tomatriedes wrote:
MVP won the GSL final, top 3 players at MLG were all zerg and protoss haven't won a major tournament in ages and yet the protoss OP whine never stops. :/ And didn't MVP win the last game with an SCV all-in? And another with a base-trade? That's precisely what this thread is trying to address. Terran has strong early game which compensates for their late game and advantages in situations like base trades which compensates for the late game. That's why the match up is not imbalanced. Neither of which reflect good game design. Its half the reason I can only stand to play one or two games of SC2 a day. Where as I could play BW all night till I pass out. This thread is called "TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard", not TvP Balance. And what do you think happens to overall balance if you buff terran's late game or nerf protoss? You can't divorce late game balance from overall balance as though it won't affect it at all. The win rates are actually pretty balanced at the moment at the pro level but it seems like the whiner brigade won't be happy until we're back at the 70-30% TvP win rates that we were at last August. Anyway I guess there's no point in arguing. You've all convinced yourselves that match up is impossible and that statistics from pro level are meaningless while terrans and zergs continue to win all the tournaments. I'm going to try to avoid looking at these kind of threads because it gets me annoyed.
What happens is Protosses won't dedicate their life to getting to the lategame as greedily as possible and bring back the win ratios in the mid game to a more equal ratio while losing their massive advantage in the lategame. Contrary to popular belief, protoss has a damn good earlygame, and a solid enough midgame. The reason terran win ratios are most dominant in the midgame is because protosses all aim for lategame wins which force terrans to get the win in the midgame, because the protoss advantage is the highest in the lategame, and not because their midgame is weak.
Also, even win rates at the top level is an insult to individual player skill. If there wasn't some sort of statistical advantage at the GSL level for the races, and there was a three way split, it'd be a sign of blizzard balancing the game too far to compensate for individual players being better than everyone else, regardless of what race they happened to be.
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On May 21 2012 18:29 Thezzy wrote:
Removing Feedback is too strong a change, similar to how Blizzard nerfed Snipe to only 25 damage to make it weaker against Ultralisks and Brood Lords. The same result could've been achieved by making the Snipe damage drop to 25 against Massive units.
Thors, BCs, Banshees and Ravens are all mechanical units, why not make it so Feedback does not damage Mechanical units?
It still drains the energy (killing Cloak, Raven energy etc) but it wouldn't nuke the unit itself.
That way Thors and BCs are still useful but still use energy and have to build it up before they can use their abilities.
Ghosts, Infestors, enemy HT and such would still be the same.
That would be a great change!
I would be even willing to start with feedback not affecting massive units and see where it goes from there. But something needs to be done, feedback is the most game dulling spell in the game.
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I disagree with getting rid of/changing feedback honestly. Blizzard needs to figure out ways to terran endgame more viable that doesn't nerf the other races.
Making BCs yamato oneshot Colossi is one thing. I actually tried mathing out marauder BC instead of marauder vikings against protoss, but when I realized that yamato didn't kill colossi it made me dismiss them entirely.
Also, making the lategame compositions of protoss/zerg harder to control would allow for terrans to exploit mistakes better, BW-style. I don't think there'll ever be perfect endgame balance since different races are different, but deathballs should be vulnerable, in need of protection and hard to control, while also having negatives like being immobile, like the BW tank push vs Protoss, that has holes to abuse.
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yes just remove feed back so storm can never be used against terran ever again. solves this problem there seems to exist
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On May 04 2012 13:32 Panya wrote:Blizzard has recently made a post regarding their outlook on TvP. I have not seen any threads covering it, but it seems to be important enough of an issue in this community for me to make a new topic about it. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1Show nested quote +
We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage. That said, we also know that terran players have a lot of offensive capability and harassment options at their fingertips in the mid-game. If terran players press that mid-game advantage, then protoss can’t necessarily get into the late game at their full potential, which can nullify any advantage they might have had. So, pressing that mid-game advantage is important (just as it would be important for protoss players to mitigate mid-game damage so they can to move into the late game in the strongest possible position). Ultimately, each game plays out differently, and depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win.
StarCraft II is designed with asymmetric design principles. We like having these differences between the races, as long as no one race or tactic offers a significant advantage. To put it another way, mirror matches already show us what StarCraft II looks like when both opposing forces have identical strengths at each stage of the game. In non-mirror matches we intentionally work to provide diverse strategies that make use of asymmetric design to produce varied, fun and interesting games, while maintaining excellent overall balance. That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play.
Some people just don't know how to read or comprehend....I placed the txts in bold to emphasize...
As what I've read and went through TvP in Brood War is T favored late game, although toss can mitigate the advantage by good positioning, better control (reaver and ht+shutte control), and over-all better preparation as well as mid-game damage. Yet no one complains about that.
This time it's protoss who is defensive mid-game, and terran should do damage to lessen or negate advantage of protoss late-game, yet the advantage could still be mitigated by better positioning (better concave, etc.) and control (emps)
And if in HotS terran has the advantage all-game (due to the new units), well, I hope terrans could already be satisfied and shut up.
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On May 21 2012 17:58 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:35 ntssauce wrote:
4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument.
Amusingly MVP by himself wins GSL more frequently than the entire Protoss race, as well as having twice as many championships as the entire Protoss race.
If you take MVP as an individual (4 wins) he has also won more GSLs than Terran (2 wins, 3 if you include the Super Tournament), and one of those was against MVP. It's a bit of a joke amongst Terrans that Blizzard balance the game as if everyone was MVP.
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On May 21 2012 20:00 Dzerzhinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:58 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 21 2012 10:35 ntssauce wrote:
4th GSL and other 3 wins were 1 - 1,5 years ago we are talking about NOW. Stop using that retardet argument.
Amusingly MVP by himself wins GSL more frequently than the entire Protoss race, as well as having twice as many championships as the entire Protoss race. If you take MVP as an individual (4 wins) he has also won more GSLs than Terran (2 wins, 3 if you include the Super Tournament), and one of those was against MVP. It's a bit of a joke amongst Terrans that Blizzard balance the game as if everyone was MVP.
so how should it be balanced? this thread is ridiculous. no one has even identified an actual problem. it's just the same garbage: protoss is too strong late game, so nerf X because that will fix the problem.
that's not how you solve a problem. identify the problem first and then figure out a way to solve it. not the other way around. and the game absolutely has to be balanced around the top level of players. if it's not done this way it ceases to be competitive
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