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On May 21 2012 08:30 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 08:09 HinagikUx wrote:di On May 21 2012 07:55 SupLilSon wrote:On May 21 2012 07:27 Toadvine wrote:On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote:
Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far). They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo. Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy? I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game. did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon. please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx. Let me split my BCs so that 75% of them are not firing. Sounds like a really good solution right? His only real mistake was not EMPing that Mothership.
Just want to throw this out there: air units aren't restricted by terrain. Imagine if MVP "split"--or rather, spread--his BCs across the entire map like you would with siege tank line. A vortex would never catch all the BCs, and it would give the BC fleet the sickest concave when the edges of the fleet wrap around to fight too. This would, of course, take more micro and babysitting to watch all your BCs across the map instead of just binding them onto a single hotkey and treating them as a clump.
I think the idea of 'splitting' your BCs should be more like spreading in a huge arc like a siege line, not "magic boxing" them.
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On May 21 2012 08:30 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 08:09 HinagikUx wrote:di On May 21 2012 07:55 SupLilSon wrote:On May 21 2012 07:27 Toadvine wrote:On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote:
Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far). They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo. Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy? I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game. did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon. please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx. Let me split my BCs so that 75% of them are not firing. Sounds like a really good solution right? His only real mistake was not EMPing that Mothership.
You must not be very good at splitting then... Or splitting before the battle... He could have attacked right after the first and the 2nd recall and won, but instead he was trying to showcase it by going mass BC. Then he did the only thing that could possibly lose him the game. He could have done anything else such as; Splitting his BC. Mixing in Vikings. Casting 1 EMP . Not having 200 supply BCs in the area of one vortex. The list goes on. Referring to that game as imbalance in Protoss favour is just false.
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On May 21 2012 11:45 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 08:30 shockaslim wrote:On May 21 2012 08:09 HinagikUx wrote:di On May 21 2012 07:55 SupLilSon wrote:On May 21 2012 07:27 Toadvine wrote:On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote:
Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far). They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo. Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy? I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game. did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon. please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx. Let me split my BCs so that 75% of them are not firing. Sounds like a really good solution right? His only real mistake was not EMPing that Mothership. You must not be very good at splitting then... Or splitting before the battle... He could have attacked right after the first and the 2nd recall and won, but instead he was trying to showcase it by going mass BC. Then he did the only thing that could possibly lose him the game. He could have done anything else such as; Splitting his BC. Mixing in Vikings. Casting 1 EMP . Not having 200 supply BCs in the area of one vortex. The list goes on. Referring to that game as imbalance in Protoss favour is just false.
Do you know how hard it is to split a very large unit that is A) slower than a turtle and B) has TERRIBLE acceleration. He can't mix in Vikings because they are dead weight at that point.
I also never said anything about that game being imbalanced.
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This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
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On May 21 2012 12:24 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 11:45 ErAsc2 wrote:On May 21 2012 08:30 shockaslim wrote:On May 21 2012 08:09 HinagikUx wrote:di On May 21 2012 07:55 SupLilSon wrote:On May 21 2012 07:27 Toadvine wrote:On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote:
Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far). They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo. Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy? I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game. did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon. please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx. Let me split my BCs so that 75% of them are not firing. Sounds like a really good solution right? His only real mistake was not EMPing that Mothership. You must not be very good at splitting then... Or splitting before the battle... He could have attacked right after the first and the 2nd recall and won, but instead he was trying to showcase it by going mass BC. Then he did the only thing that could possibly lose him the game. He could have done anything else such as; Splitting his BC. Mixing in Vikings. Casting 1 EMP . Not having 200 supply BCs in the area of one vortex. The list goes on. Referring to that game as imbalance in Protoss favour is just false. Do you know how hard it is to split a very large unit that is A) slower than a turtle and B) has TERRIBLE acceleration. He can't mix in Vikings because they are dead weight at that point. I also never said anything about that game being imbalanced.
Ask a zerg player then, they've figured it out quite well with their broodlords to counter the exact same thing that happened to MVP... and they don't have the EZ counter of one EMP out of the 18 ghosts they have sitting in range of the mothership, nor even the less easy maneuver of chain yamato-ing the mothership to instakill it either and they've learned how to beat it.
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On May 21 2012 12:38 Cornix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 12:24 shockaslim wrote:On May 21 2012 11:45 ErAsc2 wrote:On May 21 2012 08:30 shockaslim wrote:On May 21 2012 08:09 HinagikUx wrote:di On May 21 2012 07:55 SupLilSon wrote:On May 21 2012 07:27 Toadvine wrote:On May 21 2012 06:58 IshinShishi wrote:
Only one protoss lost in proleague yesterday and only one terran won, most of those toss players were no names and they didn't just win, they crushed, yet if you told me that any of them were Naniwa/Oz or whoever, I'd believe it, because their play didn't look flaky at all, quite the contrary, while flaws in the terrans' and zergs' play were all very easily spotted, guess that fully settles which of the races is easier to master(by far). They mostly won by cleverly taking the easy way in every game. If every Terran did a 1/1/1 variation in TvP, I guarantee they'd pick up a bunch of easy wins, simply because dealing with powerful timings requires experience and familiarity with the game's little quirks and subtleties. That's how all the Zergs lost their PvZs too - Jaedong lost to the +1/+1 Immortal all-in, effort and the other guy lost to the 3 base Blink/Immortal timing that hits before Broodlords. Mechanically, their play was fine, it just requires practice to know that you either need to commit to the roach max, or get an earlier Hive. The way the Protosses played PvZ, a well-executed roach max would have smashed them, imo. Finally, the Terrans were all really late on their third bases in the TvPs that were played. Still, most of the games were really weird, regardless of matchup. effort killed Flash by a-moving maxed muta/ling/bling balls into him, does that mean Zerg is easy? I mean, I think the general consensus by pros and casuals alike has been that Protoss is the easiest, then Zerg, then Terran. Terran is the only race that's really put on the clock. As the game has developed (thanks BLIZZ) Terran needs to have an intimate knowledge of every timing available to them in the early/mid game. Because if Terran does not successfully deal damage within this time span they will lose the game. Without months to practice and become extremely familiar with these timings and being able to use many of them, Terrans are going to struggle a ton. With Terran you can't simply be a good player to win. You have to exploit this whole early/mid game advantage that Blizzard has established through their "balancing". Because come late game, if you haven't played Terran the way Blizzard deems it should be played, no amount of skill or talent will save you. And contrary to what a lot of people are saying, MVP didn't win any lategame vs. Squirtle. Squirtle made blinkstalker/collo armies lategame in the 1st 3 games and lost. Once he started playing more standard (chargelot/HT/archon) he rolled through 3 easy games. MVP would have lost the series 4-3 if he hadnt successfully 11/11 raxxed in the last game. did you even watch game 5? MVP had that 50 min game totally in hte bag, and did the ONE thing that could lose him the game, not split his BC's...he made the perfect counter to chargelot ht archon which is plenetary fortress turtling and expoing, and wasdefinitely in a game winningsituation especially after killing squirtle's mid bases.its like how 2 months ago zergs were crying about mothership, then realized they can split broodlords like stephano and make vortex pretty useless (never seen stephano get archon toileted after the kiwikaki game ever again). And im sorry, game 6 was definitely not standard at all, mvp did basically a 2base all in. squirtle also went a hybrid of colly/HT, not full chargelot HT archon. please dont make dumb assumptions and get your facts straight before you post, kthx. Let me split my BCs so that 75% of them are not firing. Sounds like a really good solution right? His only real mistake was not EMPing that Mothership. You must not be very good at splitting then... Or splitting before the battle... He could have attacked right after the first and the 2nd recall and won, but instead he was trying to showcase it by going mass BC. Then he did the only thing that could possibly lose him the game. He could have done anything else such as; Splitting his BC. Mixing in Vikings. Casting 1 EMP . Not having 200 supply BCs in the area of one vortex. The list goes on. Referring to that game as imbalance in Protoss favour is just false. Do you know how hard it is to split a very large unit that is A) slower than a turtle and B) has TERRIBLE acceleration. He can't mix in Vikings because they are dead weight at that point. I also never said anything about that game being imbalanced. Ask a zerg player then, they've figured it out quite well with their broodlords to counter the exact same thing that happened to MVP... and they don't have the EZ counter of one EMP out of the 18 ghosts they have sitting in range of the mothership, nor even the less easy maneuver of chain yamato-ing the mothership to instakill it either and they've learned how to beat it.
It's been said 1000 times. BLs are siege units with long range. BCs have a considerably shorter range, making it difficult to keep them spread and effective at the same time. Please at least read the last couple pages before replying.
Just want to throw this out there: air units aren't restricted by terrain. Imagine if MVP "split"--or rather, spread--his BCs across the entire map like you would with siege tank line. A vortex would never catch all the BCs, and it would give the BC fleet the sickest concave when the edges of the fleet wrap around to fight too. This would, of course, take more micro and babysitting to watch all your BCs across the map instead of just binding them onto a single hotkey and treating them as a clump.
I think the idea of 'splitting' your BCs should be more like spreading in a huge arc like a siege line, not "magic boxing" them.
This would not work because it would leave his BCs highly vulnerable to the much more moble Protoss deathball. With their short range and slow speed, BCs need to be kept relatively close together akin to a pack of animals.
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Warp Gates and Colossus that forces useless Vikings are the problem here, and both of them look like are here to stay.
The Mother ship with it's stupid Vortex and Archon toilet are going in HOTS, no reason to worry about it.
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another thing i noticed about the MVP/squirtle game is squirtle had a MASSIVE bank while MVP did not, even though squirtle and MVP mined similar amounts
lets look closer at that situation
MVP sacrificed a ton of bio/medivacs/vikings while making BC. vikings are very expensive 150minerals a pop saccing a bunch of those can lead to having a 2k smaller bank later in the game
it would be smarter to keep the vikings/marauders alive. sacrificing some marines in drops is ok as marines are deadweight lategame
vikings are not weak to keep alive in your army. one 3/3 viking on the ground actually defeats a 3/3/3 zealot, or stalker, and in the air they are stronger. better to keep them than sac them.
lets just assume for a moment somehow terrans learn how to make the MVP/squirtle game5 scenario happen more and more (defensive with planetaries, get BC's) in those situations not overmaking medivacs is also something to look out for.
i noticed in that game mvp was lightly overproducing medivacs which he ended up saccing later. If your going for more BC/viking in your army then the medivacs become less valuable at that point. maybe you want 3 medivacs at that lategame stage to heal some marauders/ghosts you might have. marauders are still powerful lategame and a good unit to keep around
anyway yeah i really feel MVP should have won that BC game. and i was amazed squirtle had such a larger bank while MVP had zero bank. MVP sacrificed about 3k+ in vikings/marauders/marines/medivacs which is what lead to squirtle having that 3+k bank (or was squirtles bank 13k? i dont remember)
anyway MVP clearly lost the fight with his battlecruisers to a clearly inferior force so why do i think he should have won? well all his BC's got feedbacked and feedbacked BC's sukk. I know its stupid that emp'ing your own battlecruisers is needed but that GAME 5 just showed battlecruisers will lose to a inferior force if you dont stack/emp them before the fight. its absolutely stupid and retarded, but doing that to give all your battlecruisers 200 extra health is needed
spreading the battlecruisers wasnt that big of a deal. it was mostly the fact that all battlecruisers took 200 free damage from feedback that was stupid
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On May 21 2012 12:43 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 12:38 Cornix wrote:On May 21 2012 12:24 shockaslim wrote:
Do you know how hard it is to split a very large unit that is A) slower than a turtle and B) has TERRIBLE acceleration. He can't mix in Vikings because they are dead weight at that point.
I also never said anything about that game being imbalanced. Ask a zerg player then, they've figured it out quite well with their broodlords to counter the exact same thing that happened to MVP... and they don't have the EZ counter of one EMP out of the 18 ghosts they have sitting in range of the mothership, nor even the less easy maneuver of chain yamato-ing the mothership to instakill it either and they've learned how to beat it. It's been said 1000 times. BLs are siege units with long range. BCs have a considerably shorter range, making it difficult to keep them spread and effective at the same time. Please at least read the last couple pages before replying.
1) yamato means far away bc's could still be made effective. yamato range is LARGER than brood lord range, and given the rear bc's position and the movement speed of bc's and high templars can get that yamato volley off faster than ht's could get up to them to feedback with good positionining and timing.
2) I replied to a statement talking purely about the difficulty to split a large unit that has a slow movement speed and terrible acceleration. 'Effectiveness' was not brought up, nor is it EVER more important to be 'more effective' and shut into a vortex to die than it is to be spread out and not get eaten by a vortex. Had he spread better, even if the initial 'concave' hadn't of been as effective for him he would've had more free BC's which means the bc's too far away can both still yamato and move towards the battle and/or the bc's in 'danger' and being attacked can pull back towards the rest of the BC's.
Try to be smart about this. Splitting better still means a more effective army and could easily have won him the game.
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despite all the arguments, i just wanna take this opportunity to give my highest salutation to LG-IM MVP, for having the ballz to try such a mind blowing strategy (PF + BC + Ghosts) especially in a GSL Final OMFG. Now u know why the korean terrans are still winning championships even though TVP is admittedly not so balanced? It's because there are terrans like MVP, the never say die attitude and will adjust to anything and raise their level whenever their race is nerfed (or other race is buffed)
We foreign terrans should really complain less and start levelling up ourselves.
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You HAVE to clump BCs otherwise a pack of blink stalkers blink under the BCs and focus fire down the BCs super fast, but with enough DPS in one spot the stalkers just die and kill nothing.
However, I don't think the critical mass of BCs is 24 and they all have to be in 1 location. 3 clumps of 8 BCs would have still been powerful as hell and would mean that even with the vortex MVP would have had 16 BCs active at any one time. When squirtle vortexed over half of MVPs BCs the game was done.
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On May 21 2012 12:53 Cornix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 12:43 SupLilSon wrote:On May 21 2012 12:38 Cornix wrote:On May 21 2012 12:24 shockaslim wrote:
Do you know how hard it is to split a very large unit that is A) slower than a turtle and B) has TERRIBLE acceleration. He can't mix in Vikings because they are dead weight at that point.
I also never said anything about that game being imbalanced. Ask a zerg player then, they've figured it out quite well with their broodlords to counter the exact same thing that happened to MVP... and they don't have the EZ counter of one EMP out of the 18 ghosts they have sitting in range of the mothership, nor even the less easy maneuver of chain yamato-ing the mothership to instakill it either and they've learned how to beat it. It's been said 1000 times. BLs are siege units with long range. BCs have a considerably shorter range, making it difficult to keep them spread and effective at the same time. Please at least read the last couple pages before replying. 1) yamato means far away bc's could still be made effective. yamato range is LARGER than brood lord range, and given the rear bc's position and the movement speed of bc's and high templars can get that yamato volley off faster than ht's could get up to them to feedback with good positionining and timing. 2) I replied to a statement talking purely about the difficulty to split a large unit that has a slow movement speed and terrible acceleration. 'Effectiveness' was not brought up, nor is it EVER more important to be 'more effective' and shut into a vortex to die than it is to be spread out and not get eaten by a vortex. Had he spread better, even if the initial 'concave' hadn't of been as effective for him he would've had more free BC's which means the bc's too far away can both still yamato and move towards the battle and/or the bc's in 'danger' and being attacked can pull back towards the rest of the BC's. Try to be smart about this. Splitting better still means a more effective army and could easily have won him the game.
1) While  Yamato Cannon has 10 range it still needs 3 seconds to charge up, which in mean time a High Templar can nullify it with feedback (has range of 9) and you only really can shoot it once per battle. It is not constant attack like the Broodlords have, so after that is done they are still going to pretty much clump up.
2) If we were to be smart about this MvP should have just EMP'd the mothership in the first place. Not trying to split a huge unit like battlecruiser.
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Pertaining to the main topic I don't want a game where both all races just sit around and macro and have big late game fights. Personally I hate watching macro games where both players just push to the late game, i like innovate aggressive play. Just need to play more aggressive as terran if toss is going to play a style that pushes the game later. I really dont want to have to watch one more PvT where both players sit and macro for 15ish minutes then have one game defining fight, now that is boring for both the players and spectators.
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you definitely must to have bc's fairly clumped or else blink stalkers snipe them like no tomorrow
i think mvp would have won that fight if he pre-emp'ed all his BC's (stack then emp them 1 ghost can drain them all) and landed EMP's on a majority of the voidrays/stalkers/archons
the vortex had little to do with it. mvp lost the battle because all his battlecruisers were blasted for 200damage by feedback which is just so stupid but whatever... guess terran needs to emp his battlecruisers because that GAME 5 showed BC's will lose to an inferior army if you dont emp them
the priority for the terran in the battle should just be landing his own EMP's on the protoss army. he doesnt need to worry about spreading his bc's thats a non-issue really, and because he EMP's his bc's before combat he doesnt need to worry about the in battle
also i believe squirtle was at 200food during that fight, and nearly all of squirtles units were stalkers, archons, voidrays, HT, and mothership. So squirtles army was pretty much all anti-BC, but i think MVP still would have won if he did the above because BC's win against EMP'ed stalkers, voidrays, and archons
MVP controlled the army wrongly im sure put him in the situation 20 times after learning from the first 3 times he will win the next 17 times because his army was superior and should always win if you know how to use it
which begs the question, what is the counter to mass BC as toss? well squirtle should always lose that battle in GAME 5 (if mvp controls properly) because he had too many stalkers/archons (which melt to EMP and are bad vs BC)
its EXTREMELY hard to mass up like 24 BC's (144 supply of BC's which mvp had) and the protoss counter to that is pure voidray pretty much with storms. If the protoss has some stalkers he loses, if the protoss is able to replace stalkers with voidrays he wins.
EMP'ed voidrays will actually lose the battle to stormed BC's, however most of the BC's will die allowing warpin mechanic to make the game even again
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Am i the only one thinking maybe some ravens wouldve helped mvp?
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On May 21 2012 13:39 SKDN wrote:
Am i the only one thinking maybe some ravens wouldve helped mvp?
Lol, that's the joke which the TvP balance thread has become.
Every protoss says "actually, Ravens are pretty good" and every Terran says "zomg I did mass raven and lost!!"
No matter what you say, no self respecting terran will build a Raven in any matchup. Watch TvZ. They will spend a billion scans before building a raven to help cleanup creep tumors and still call it 'more cost efficient' as they bank 3k gas.
You must always remember that protoss will have infinite HT to feedback everything with energy and thus all your spell casters are useless. I know I saw 8 full energy HT's to feedback all 24 BCs and that's why MVP lost. None of the Bc's that died had any energy left at all!
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I say remove Thor energy and give each Thor one spider mine that you have to upgrade at the factory tech lab. (And remove Strike Cannon of course.)
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it's funny how only the very top korean terrans can actually get the race to work well (with the exception of maybe thorzain).
The sad truth is that any type of play that isn't bio centric vs P/Z is at an immense disadvantage. The alternatives to bio do not stack up vs bio in terms of its cost-effectiveness. Even the most turtle mech, which should be one of the most cost-effective comps in the game, is no where near its BW counterpart. This is another reason why the meta has switched back to early aggression from extremely economic openings, terrans know they live on borrowed time (without doing sufficient damage - which the other races don't need to do at all vs T).
I'm really sick of the misconception of terran being 'versatile'. Versatile in the first 7-10 minutes does not equate to the race being inherently 'versatile'. This word has just been spewed out constantly from the Blizzard PR machine and I don't want any of it any more.
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On May 21 2012 13:45 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 13:39 SKDN wrote:
Am i the only one thinking maybe some ravens wouldve helped mvp? Lol, that's the joke which the TvP balance thread has become. Every protoss says "actually, Ravens are pretty good" and every Terran says "zomg I did mass raven and lost!!" No matter what you say, no self respecting terran will build a Raven in any matchup. Watch TvZ. They will spend a billion scans before building a raven to help cleanup creep tumors and still call it 'more cost efficient' as they bank 3k gas. You must always remember that protoss will have infinite HT to feedback everything with energy and thus all your spell casters are useless. I know I saw 8 full energy HT's to feedback all 24 BCs and that's why MVP lost. None of the Bc's that died had any energy left at all!
I really question my mental capacity with respect to replying to this post as it demonstrates a belief that I can, somehow, argue logic over the internet with someone who either has no respect for it or has never played terran--maybe both. But I am going to address these points anyway.
"As they bank 3k gas" The Terran is not floating gas because they cannot mine at a higher rate, (which is what mules allow, they do not actually give you minerals) he is floating gas because he is mining out of minerals and cannot secure another expansion against the chargelot/ht or zergling/infestor/ultra w.e combo.
Now, that the economic concern is better explained let us go into their actual use (I do actually understand this having a few thousand games as terran). Raven as detectors are both somewhat questionable and slightly redundant. A terran army requires scans as they move out as it is due to how fragile a terran army is without proper positioning. Secondly, relying on a unit as flimsy as a raven to provide your only means of detection while not saving scans at home is recipe for disaster against baneling mines or other threats.
Ravens in a combat oriented situation are also fairly poor for most of the game (watch Bomber V Sniper game 3 for an excellent illustration of this). They require a massive investment with an extremely small return (a few auto turrets maybe a pdd) for a very long period while also being extremely fragile and easy to snipe. Against zerg you would be much better off having more tanks to deal with banelings than a few auto turrets and against mutas a thor or two instead of pdd. On the otherhand, against toss their only use outside of super lategame is for pdd versus stalkers but already toss makes an extremely limited amount of stalkers and pdd is hardcountered by feedback. Let me illustrate: pdd costs 100 energy from a unit which costs 100 minerals and 200 gas and is produced from a 150 mineral and 100 gas production facility and takes 60 seconds to build, while feedback costs 50 energy from a 50 mineral and 150 gas unit which comes from a 150 mineral production facility and takes 5 seconds to build. As you can see, building ravens is typically a very foolish idea.
However, all that being accounted for they do have one use: extremely lategame air battles where they can mass seeker missile. The stage of the game where this is viable is almost never seen and even then with proper control ravens are fairly subpar v protoss (can be extremely good against zerg if you snipe all the infestors). Also, in this situation against protoss they eat up gas from the BCs and as you saw MVP was broke with that BC fleet so every 3 ravens are 2 less BCs.
My intention with this post was to provide, hopefully, a somewhat adequate explanation of why terran's are not building ravens all the time as it seems that whenever terrans bring up any issues this game might have, the response from people who have less than 100 games logged as terran is "make ravens."
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On May 21 2012 12:36 roymarthyup wrote:
This would be so easily fixed with a simple change
give battlecruisers/thors a energy shutdown option that quickly removes energy and stops creating energy. if bc's had that and could be drained of energy easily mvp would have won that BC game
also i feel thors have been figured out now to where protoss no longer needs feedback to counter them. thorzains fast thor rush will not work against the current protosses. thors with strike cannon beat immortals before too easily (2thors easily cannoned 2immortals) but with my energy drain idea they couldnt cannon if terran used it. but the benefit for the terran would be the thors now have +200 extra health and are a viable unit
thors were given their energy bar back after blizzard decided strike cannons were too hard of a counter to the thors counter (immortals). so blizzard thought rushing 3thors was too powerful as those 3thors could instantly cannon-stomp 3immortals
ive done the math on BC's and unfeedbacked BC's WITH YAMATO are incredibly overpowered against toss, which is why toss has feedback. if the toss has no templars against mass bc, then terran is allowed to get a free-win lategame with yamato BC's.
if the BC's are energy-less they still counter -everything- but voidrays. BC's armor is so high a-move them against carriers kills all the interceptors quickly carriers can kite BC's for a short while until all the interceptors die
problem is BC's with energy are countered by feedback by pretty much anything. 350hp BC's just suck.
Forced energy shutoff seems to me like a really interesting idea. I'd like to see it at least PTR'd.
It's kind of sad that Yamato and Strike Cannons are such problematic abilities. Direct damage abilities are something powerful on any unit, and even more so on units that can engage normally (as we saw in Thorzain's old builds and pre-nerf endgame TvZ). From what I recall, the only reason Yamato wasn't troublesome in BW was how obscenely powerful Storm and Plague were. An option to turn them off could result in a much more interesting mech game.
Oh, come to think of it, here's an alternative to consider. Have energy only be enabled by researching the ability itself.
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EPT
