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On May 16 2012 13:38 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 13:14 Boiler Bandsman wrote:On May 16 2012 13:00 roymarthyup wrote:
ive been experimenting with lategame TvP armies and i know it sounds to stupid to say i know the answers when MVP and supernova and mma dont, so i wont say that
i will say I do not know if i know the answers. ill just say i have a theory and you can post about why its wrong and ill listen. Because i know its simply stupid for me to say my answers are right when MVP/supernova/mma havent done it yet
heres what i believe. Through some testing in the unit tester, I think lategame terran can actually defeat the protoss deathball by abusing mules. If terran has 18 SCV's on gas, and a 182 food army, and protoss has 40 probes and a 160 food army, the terran can definitely win.
Also I dont think battlecruisers and mech is weak at all. 3/3 vikings, battlecruisers, with maybe 2 thors, a bunch of hellions and tanks zero bio. Call this the bio-less TvP endgame. What can toss do to beat that? not much especially if the terran is using mules to have a 182food army vs 160food army
as a toss player i will agree that feedback vs thors/BC's is really stupid which is why i suggest a terran have ONE GHOST which can deplete infinity battlecruisers of energy (just have one ghost in the back and make sure to deplete their energy before the fight). But energy on thors is a problem because thors cannot stack and ghosts cannot remove thor energy effectively which is why i suggest only getting 2 thors. If you ONLY get 2 thors in your army, this means with their 7range in order for toss to actually get in and micro off his templars to cast feedback on your 2 thors by the time that happens the entire protoss army will probably already be dead.
The problem with the above idea is it is actually the PROTOSS are the strong ones in the midgame. Because if a terran TRIES to macro up and get 4 bases, defensive posture, and upgraded battlecruisers/mech he will die to the collossi/gateway attack.
In reality i think it is the terran that has the unstoppable lategame in the current build of this game. However it is SO hard to get to, almost impossible, that to my knowledge there has NEVER been a pro GSL game where a terran has actually achieved my lategame bio-less scenario against toss First off, let me say I think the Terran whining is overblown, so this isn't me agreeing with them. However, what you're describing isn't the answer. The MULE use thing is on the right track IMO, but you will never ever see someone get to that sort of unit composition, because the production setup and cycle time is just awful. Your comment about toss units being mid-game is off because what you describe isn't a late-game comp, it's a fantasy comp. It's no more valid than me advocating a colossus/templar/carrier build. While your thing might be able to kill a deathball, it's so far outside the reasonable bounds of good play from your opponent as to be useless. Now the answer might involve mech or sky terran eventually, but I seriously doubt it will look like what you've described. funny thing is im a master toss and many games will win with carriers. carriers beat vikings cost for cost and food for food (Really, test it in the tester) however what im saying its funny here is that as toss i actually get to use my lategame and it feels very viable i feel so sorry for terran because IVE PLAYED TERRAN some in the master league and it sucks how their lategame is so unviable due to thors and feedback. Battlecruisers are also unviable because to get the bc;s and the ghost you already spend so much gas you die to midgame toss push as a toss player i 1000000000000000% support the notion of giving thors and battlecruisers either no energy bars or make feedback not work against massive units either way it fixes the problem
There are a lot of reasons T3 doesn't work in TvZ. The two main problems I see are immobility, and the fact that upgrades do not apply to both Bio and Thors/BC's. BC's are heavily dependent on upgrades, since they attack so quickly and with so little base damage, and Thors simply melt because they just can't take damage from +3 attack Colossus and Zealots without +3 armor of it's own, and overkill a ton on Zealots, so they simply aren't very good.
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On May 16 2012 13:57 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:23 Sadist wrote:On May 16 2012 05:38 Talack wrote:On May 16 2012 05:01 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it) 1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc... 2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum. 3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out. 4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines. 5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control. 6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans. 7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech) Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces. I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess  Thanks for the advice man! Hopefully I won't rage as much following this advice. There have been times where I DESTROYED a Protoss deathball with superior micro and after the battle I still had like 30 marines and 8 marauders plus medivacs. But I made the mistake of trying to stim my already injured bio into his natural to end the game. But he just warped in like 20 chargelots and had a random HT at his base he didnt use in the engagement and my bio foce instantly got wrecked. And even though I won the 200/200 engagement decisively I went on the lose the game because he was just able to macro up another deathball and run me over with reinforcing warp ins. It's pretty bullshit that is Terran loses 1 engagement the game is instantly over but if Protoss loses an engagement they can just warp in to instantly defend. This is why Warp gate is the real problem in TvP. I have no problem with Protoss having a better late game army since that is the way they are designed but warp gate it total fucking bullshit. It's insanely easy to think "now is the time" in PvT, you'll win an engagement with like 30 supply left over and you think "ok now we kill him" becaues well that's what happens in TvZ and TvT and used to happen in PvT tbh. You need to just take out his ability to remax, becuase you're going to "have" to fight 2-3 200/200 or something close to that battles before you're going to win. Once you're able to build your strategies/macro/micro all that jazz around this philosphy you'll be able to at least do better in macro-orientated matchups. the problem is, if as a terran you lose 1 of the several 200/200 battles, you lose the game. Basically you can't win the game with any one battle as terran, but you certainly can lose it, which is what is really frustrating vs P. False. If you decisively win a battle as Terran with 30-40+ supply of units remaining, you can snipe 2+ of the Protoss' expansions before having to retreat, giving you a huge lead letting you do a follow up push at 200/200 which you can win the game with. If you lose an engagement, it's not the end of the world if you have planetary fortresses keeping the Protoss from walking straight into your production. This lets you get that extra production round out that you need to defend his attack.
The more I read your posts the more it seems you play another game. You have 40 supply remaining after a battle which is 12 marines, 10 marauders and 4 medivacs with most your bio at half HP because of repeated stim use. You walk up and are greeted by 4 HT and 12 chargelots that just warped in. 4x feedback on your medivac -> archon morph and your bio just gets slaughtered. Especially as medivacs don't heal while moving, thus your bio is still in the yellow or you just gave him extra time to get a second warp-in.
Now protoss has 30-40 supply left. Realistically those are mostly stalkers an archon and some left-over zealots or HT. If you have a high templar, you can directly storm your mineral line of choice and deal dmg. But lets assume the best case for terran: No HT left and terran has a PF at EVERY expansion PLUS a PF guarding the ramp.
So stalkers really have to blink into your main and kill your reinforcements as they trickle out 1by1 from the barracks while killing add-ons and retreating as soon as they begin to take real damage.
If you don't have a PF at every expansion -> Toss can kill it.
If you don't have a PF guarding your main/natural -> Toss just walk into your production
If toss has a warp-prism -> you die as stalkers blink into the main and the complete gateway reinforcements spawn in your main and due to the front-loaded nature you die instantly.
Even if you wanted to guard your production with random PFs, you cannot do it on most maps because the space requirements mean that you cannot really fit a PF into your base.
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Here's a problem with lategae. Terran wins a big engagement? Protoss can still win.
Protoss wins a big engagement? Terran has just lost the game.
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On May 16 2012 16:51 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 13:57 Fencer710 wrote:On May 16 2012 10:23 Sadist wrote:On May 16 2012 05:38 Talack wrote:On May 16 2012 05:01 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it) 1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc... 2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum. 3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out. 4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines. 5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control. 6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans. 7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech) Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces. I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess Thanks for the advice man! Hopefully I won't rage as much following this advice. There have been times where I DESTROYED a Protoss deathball with superior micro and after the battle I still had like 30 marines and 8 marauders plus medivacs. But I made the mistake of trying to stim my already injured bio into his natural to end the game. But he just warped in like 20 chargelots and had a random HT at his base he didnt use in the engagement and my bio foce instantly got wrecked. And even though I won the 200/200 engagement decisively I went on the lose the game because he was just able to macro up another deathball and run me over with reinforcing warp ins. It's pretty bullshit that is Terran loses 1 engagement the game is instantly over but if Protoss loses an engagement they can just warp in to instantly defend. This is why Warp gate is the real problem in TvP. I have no problem with Protoss having a better late game army since that is the way they are designed but warp gate it total fucking bullshit. It's insanely easy to think "now is the time" in PvT, you'll win an engagement with like 30 supply left over and you think "ok now we kill him" becaues well that's what happens in TvZ and TvT and used to happen in PvT tbh. You need to just take out his ability to remax, becuase you're going to "have" to fight 2-3 200/200 or something close to that battles before you're going to win. Once you're able to build your strategies/macro/micro all that jazz around this philosphy you'll be able to at least do better in macro-orientated matchups. the problem is, if as a terran you lose 1 of the several 200/200 battles, you lose the game. Basically you can't win the game with any one battle as terran, but you certainly can lose it, which is what is really frustrating vs P. False. If you decisively win a battle as Terran with 30-40+ supply of units remaining, you can snipe 2+ of the Protoss' expansions before having to retreat, giving you a huge lead letting you do a follow up push at 200/200 which you can win the game with. If you lose an engagement, it's not the end of the world if you have planetary fortresses keeping the Protoss from walking straight into your production. This lets you get that extra production round out that you need to defend his attack. The more I read your posts the more it seems you play another game. You have 40 supply remaining after a battle which is 12 marines, 10 marauders and 4 medivacs with most your bio at half HP because of repeated stim use. You walk up and are greeted by 4 HT and 12 chargelots that just warped in. 4x feedback on your medivac -> archon morph and your bio just gets slaughtered. Especially as medivacs don't heal while moving, thus your bio is still in the yellow or you just gave him extra time to get a second warp-in. Now protoss has 30-40 supply left. Realistically those are mostly stalkers an archon and some left-over zealots or HT. If you have a high templar, you can directly storm your mineral line of choice and deal dmg. But lets assume the best case for terran: No HT left and terran has a PF at EVERY expansion PLUS a PF guarding the ramp. So stalkers really have to blink into your main and kill your reinforcements as they trickle out 1by1 from the barracks while killing add-ons and retreating as soon as they begin to take real damage. If you don't have a PF at every expansion -> Toss can kill it. If you don't have a PF guarding your main/natural -> Toss just walk into your production If toss has a warp-prism -> you die as stalkers blink into the main and the complete gateway reinforcements spawn in your main and due to the front-loaded nature you die instantly. Even if you wanted to guard your production with random PFs, you cannot do it on most maps because the space requirements mean that you cannot really fit a PF into your base.
Your argument might have made sense if you included ghosts in that terran army that was left. Oh wait, no it woudn't have.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On May 16 2012 06:31 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 06:06 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 05:41 aZealot wrote:
Yeah, I really don't get it. I'd rather all this rage was put into finding solutions to "the problem" - if there really is a problem.
Terran may have a slight advantage in the mid game But it is certainly is not as big as the advantage Protoss has in the late game. Not even close. This is just straight up bullshit and you know it. How can you reconcile this statement with this? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y02dOh.png) Acceptable margins in every single month for the ENTIRE YEAR, and the only ones that were borderline were terran favored. If that protoss lategame advantage was really so much stronger than the terran early game advantage, shouldn't this graph look a lot different over the past few months? The PvT metagame has changed relatively little when it comes to late game compositions and tactics. Do you really expect your half-witted idea of just removing wg tech from the game own't drastically shift this graph in terran's favor? Do you REALLY believe blizzard can adjust protoss lategame without correspondingly adjusting terran early and mid game? The numbers just simply don't match the popular perception of pvt, and if anything I would argue terran's early game advantage and horse-shit like proxy raxes and marine/scv allins are a more pressing imbalance than a supposed protoss lategame advantage.
Popular perception of PvT holds true for ladder play:
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race/all/1
The "horse-shit like proxy raxes and marine/scv allins" can be stopped easily. Letting protoss get into lategame isn't easy to stop. This chart proves that it requires GSL skill to do this, and even then there's still probably an unbalance.
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On May 17 2012 03:10 serge wrote:
This chart proves that it requires GSL skill to do this, and even then there's still probably an unbalance.
Yeah, in Terran's favour. Look at the 3-month moving average line on the PvT graph and note how the Terran line is consistently above the Protoss one.
The only thing really worth mentioning is that PvZ has tended to be even more imbalanced in Zerg's favour than PvT is in Terran's. But I reckon you don't see much of Protoss complaining about Zerg because even imbalanced it's just not as frustratingly volatile as PvT.
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These kinds of responses by Blizzard are frustrating as they are telling professional players that they are playing the game wrong. This seems counter-intuitive as surely the pro-players should have the best understanding of how the matchup is played. An analogy would be a diamond league zerg telling a grandmaster zerg how he should play ZvP. The guy he's giving advice to is more knowledgeable than himself.
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On May 17 2012 19:41 wonderwall wrote:
These kinds of responses by Blizzard are frustrating as they are telling professional players that they are playing the game wrong. This seems counter-intuitive as surely the pro-players should have the best understanding of how the matchup is played. An analogy would be a diamond league zerg telling a grandmaster zerg how he should play ZvP. The guy he's giving advice to is more knowledgeable than himself.
It's more like a few random diamond to masters NA players are telling Code S players how to play.
Actually, that's exactly what it is.
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Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn..
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I really think that this is a GOOD statement, this is just like protoss with the 1/1/1 only after seeing that it was near unstoppable in the first place did blizzard make a change. That was for a single strategy, this is for a huge overarching game design issue. Its not a flaw, in BW different races HAD to do damage before a certain point in time or else they would be behind. Its the same here, if terran drops cripple the protoss player, then Terran will win, they have many harrassment options and many ways to gain the advantage in the mid game, if they wait till the late game without doing damage ofc protoss will have all his stuff. In TvZ, do terrans just sit and wait for the brood lord infestor ball? NO they don't so why should they do so in PvT. I play protoss so i am a bit skewed, but i think a lot of the complaining stems from not harrassing and using the tools of the race, not that Terran is somehow underpowered. Though I believe with HoTS these issues will be fixed.
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I watched Kawaii Rices Stream last night and he would outplay his Protoss oppoonents so hard, he would get upgrade leads he would get enough vikings for Collosi he would get enough Ghosts. Then he would outmicro the crap out of the Protoss deathball and win the engagements clearly. But no matter how hard you crush a protoss deathball you cannot push your advantage.
So this Protoss gets wrecked, warps in 20 chargelots at his base, Kawaii starts to push but scans ahead and sees that Protoss already has enough to kill his half stimmed bio ball. So he backs up, takes a 4th base (it was 3 base v 3 base antiga cross) re macros an army and then Protoss remaxes on Zealot Archon HT and Kawaii has like 8 useless vikings, but he still hits good emp's and micros well but his army just gets wrecked by Zealot Archon. And then even though he had an extra base and tons of Barracks with reactors it didnt even matter. Protoss just kills his 4th planetary, warps in reinforcemnts and goes on to win the game easily.
How is it fair that Protoss can lose several engagements but if Terran loses 1 they lose the game. And considering Protoss has the stronger army to begin with it's such an enormous advantage for Protoss.
Get rid of Warp Gate in HoTS since it is too late to take out warp gate in WoL. It single handidly breaks TvP lategame and ruins PvP. Give them more options to deal with Zerg.
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On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn..
Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction.
Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong.
The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc.
As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months...
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On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?
Good question would love to hear an answer  though players like Avilo have shown that defensive macro terran styles can work.
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On May 18 2012 10:28 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn.. Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction. Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong. The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc. As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months...
You know why that is? Before any changes in the direction of mech could be done Blizz decided to nerf Thors for no reason except Thorzain. Blizzard doesn't want T to do anything but what we are doing.
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On May 17 2012 00:44 cydial wrote:
Here's a problem with lategame. Terran wins a big engagement? Protoss can still win.
Protoss wins a big engagement? Terran has just lost the game.
So much discussion when in reality this is the problem.
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On May 18 2012 10:37 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:28 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn.. Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction. Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong. The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc. As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months... You know why that is? Before any changes in the direction of mech could be done Blizz decided to nerf Thors for no reason except Thorzain. Blizzard doesn't want T to do anything but what we are doing.
Actually, they buffed thors, thorzain showed how that buff could be exploited and then they reverted the buff.
Personally I think it's worth re-buffing thors and seeing if the improved immortal range is enough to deal with Thorzain's exploitation of thors in the early game. I 'feel' that it is, but you don't know until you see Pro's try it.
Hey, interesting question, if Yamoto cannon was removed entirely along with BC energy, would anyone care? Same for thor, I don't think I've seen anyone research 250mm strike cannons in a pro match, never mind using it...
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On May 18 2012 10:47 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:37 Greenei wrote:On May 18 2012 10:28 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn.. Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction. Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong. The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc. As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months... You know why that is? Before any changes in the direction of mech could be done Blizz decided to nerf Thors for no reason except Thorzain. Blizzard doesn't want T to do anything but what we are doing. Actually, they buffed thors, thorzain showed how that buff could be exploited and then they reverted the buff. Personally I think it's worth re-buffing thors and seeing if the improved immortal range is enough to deal with Thorzain's exploitation of thors in the early game. I 'feel' that it is, but you don't know until you see Pro's try it. Hey, interesting question, if Yamoto cannon was removed entirely along with BC energy, would anyone care? Same for thor, I don't think I've seen anyone research 250mm strike cannons in a pro match, never mind using it...
I would care. It's a classic ability, plus very strong in late-game TvT mass air battles.
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On May 18 2012 10:47 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:37 Greenei wrote:On May 18 2012 10:28 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn.. Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction. Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong. The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc. As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months... You know why that is? Before any changes in the direction of mech could be done Blizz decided to nerf Thors for no reason except Thorzain. Blizzard doesn't want T to do anything but what we are doing. Actually, they buffed thors, thorzain showed how that buff could be exploited and then they reverted the buff. Personally I think it's worth re-buffing thors and seeing if the improved immortal range is enough to deal with Thorzain's exploitation of thors in the early game. I 'feel' that it is, but you don't know until you see Pro's try it. Hey, interesting question, if Yamoto cannon was removed entirely along with BC energy, would anyone care? Same for thor, I don't think I've seen anyone research 250mm strike cannons in a pro match, never mind using it...
Yamato is really important in TvT
250mm Strike Cannon is also useful, I think it's underused. The stun is great.
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On May 16 2012 13:57 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:23 Sadist wrote:On May 16 2012 05:38 Talack wrote:On May 16 2012 05:01 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 04:28 Talack wrote:Won a series of heavy macro related PvTs last night. Couple notes (And I'm sure everyone will hate on it) 1) You need to be aggressive with expansions. Very very challenging due to protoss timing attacks/all-ins etc etc... 2) No matter how many barracks you make, you will be out-produced. It's just a fact, you can't keep up after large battle. So you need to have frequent battles to keep their army count low to keep their confidence in pushing out at a minimum. 3) You Can't lose units, especially medivacs. They are incredibly crucial. You need those starports open for quick viking production if needed. You need those barracks ready to pump ghosts out. 4) Marauders are only good for like 10-12 of them. The rest should be pure marine/ghost. This is a huge improvement in most battles. It makes it so you can be easily easily crushed in a fight from storms. 1 Storm taking out a ball of marines is basically the game for you right there. Heavy heavy on the marines. 5) PFs at expos. If you can afford it, make 2-3 PFs per base, you NEED this economy, make additional orbitals for quick mules if you need it. Basically from your 4th and on, always PFs, if you want to be extra safe PFs at your 3rd but you should be good with an orbital and map control. 6) Scan your army ALOT for observers, don't drop mules so much as use them for scans. 7) Never aim to kill the protoss with an attack, it just doesn't work with warp gates. What you have to do is kill the army and then take a base or kill a base. You need to starve them out, you just simply cannot kill a protoss but they will absolutley roll you and all your expos easily with one battle won. You need to keep this in mind for all engagements. (Probably best advice I can give that I've learned, quite simply without amazing micro you cannot survive with enough units to beat the warp ins and new tech) Basically your goal is to starve the protoss to a point where they cannot have 15 high templars and 3-4 collosus ontop of a legion of zealots. You attack them, try to deal economic damage or at least take their army down to a point where you can win or break even again in a remax. Try your best to never engage if you can't win, you just need to lose one battle to lose the entire game, they can afford to lose 2-6 major battles before you can kill them. You have to accept their race is better with more money but you can outmaneuver them and try to pray off the weaknesses that came with a huge deathball. You don't "need" to deal damage to win, but what you have to do is not allow them free-reign without any sort of response. If they're nto pushing out, scan and take an expo. Up your production then, figure out what they're going for, grab some counter (example if they are going collosus, grab 4-6 vikings and attack) and go to break their army down into smaller pieces. I won't lie. This is insanely hard for T to do. Insanely hard compared to the "survive and win a battle" that protoss is doing, but it's possible to do without MKP style micro. If you got that kind of micro/macro, then you shouldn't be reading this at all i guess Thanks for the advice man! Hopefully I won't rage as much following this advice. There have been times where I DESTROYED a Protoss deathball with superior micro and after the battle I still had like 30 marines and 8 marauders plus medivacs. But I made the mistake of trying to stim my already injured bio into his natural to end the game. But he just warped in like 20 chargelots and had a random HT at his base he didnt use in the engagement and my bio foce instantly got wrecked. And even though I won the 200/200 engagement decisively I went on the lose the game because he was just able to macro up another deathball and run me over with reinforcing warp ins. It's pretty bullshit that is Terran loses 1 engagement the game is instantly over but if Protoss loses an engagement they can just warp in to instantly defend. This is why Warp gate is the real problem in TvP. I have no problem with Protoss having a better late game army since that is the way they are designed but warp gate it total fucking bullshit. It's insanely easy to think "now is the time" in PvT, you'll win an engagement with like 30 supply left over and you think "ok now we kill him" becaues well that's what happens in TvZ and TvT and used to happen in PvT tbh. You need to just take out his ability to remax, becuase you're going to "have" to fight 2-3 200/200 or something close to that battles before you're going to win. Once you're able to build your strategies/macro/micro all that jazz around this philosphy you'll be able to at least do better in macro-orientated matchups. the problem is, if as a terran you lose 1 of the several 200/200 battles, you lose the game. Basically you can't win the game with any one battle as terran, but you certainly can lose it, which is what is really frustrating vs P. False. If you decisively win a battle as Terran with 30-40+ supply of units remaining, you can snipe 2+ of the Protoss' expansions before having to retreat, giving you a huge lead letting you do a follow up push at 200/200 which you can win the game with. If you lose an engagement, it's not the end of the world if you have planetary fortresses keeping the Protoss from walking straight into your production. This lets you get that extra production round out that you need to defend his attack.
That's not even true. If they have 1-2 templars at an expo defending drops, you move in and you will die and lose any advantage. Show me a replay, of you having 30-40+ supply after a battle and sniping 2 expos. (hint: it doesn't happen unless the protoss had a stroke)
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On May 18 2012 12:34 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:47 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:37 Greenei wrote:On May 18 2012 10:28 Kharnage wrote:On May 18 2012 10:07 gengka wrote:
Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard is pissed off about the buffs that they gave to terran that are not utilised. Remember the raven seeker missile travelling speed and battlecruiser moving speed buff? SO they don't bother to buff terrans anymore.
But yeah those 2 buffs suck big time, i know. They are nothing compare to the immortal range, the toss upgrade time buffs...
damn.. Upgrade was a cost reduction (a very small cost reduction) not a time reduction. Also, who complains about immortal range in TvP? It's the AOE that has most terran frustrated, not the range of the immortal. At most it helped vs the 111, which even the terrans at the time agreed was insanly strong. The biggest change in TvP was the emp nerf. Everything else has been metagame changes as protoss have slowly worked out how to play the long game, what composition to get, how to get it, etc. As far as I can see terran have changed very little about their composition in lategame TvP in almost 12 months... You know why that is? Before any changes in the direction of mech could be done Blizz decided to nerf Thors for no reason except Thorzain. Blizzard doesn't want T to do anything but what we are doing. Actually, they buffed thors, thorzain showed how that buff could be exploited and then they reverted the buff. Personally I think it's worth re-buffing thors and seeing if the improved immortal range is enough to deal with Thorzain's exploitation of thors in the early game. I 'feel' that it is, but you don't know until you see Pro's try it. Hey, interesting question, if Yamoto cannon was removed entirely along with BC energy, would anyone care? Same for thor, I don't think I've seen anyone research 250mm strike cannons in a pro match, never mind using it... Yamato is really important in TvT 250mm Strike Cannon is also useful, I think it's underused. The stun is great.
It was down right messed up when there was no mana cost to it. It was the auto kill 1 immortal ability and then like your damage 60, range 7 unit go nuts with its massive marine support. And every thor got to use it, so you needed 2 immortals per thor. It was mostly messed up because it really made for a rough 2 base all in from terran. A little 2 base death ball. If anything, they should have just removed the ability and mana. Terran needs a back bone unit that doesn't get messed up by storms.
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EPT
