|
On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design  Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts.
Lowering Zealot health/shield ratio would break TvP balance. As of now basically the only unit that is worth Armor upgrade is the Zealot because of the 100 health and they are absolutely necessary or else Terrans would just spam Marauders.
Why else does Protoss get armor upgrades when the other units they mass have 50/50 health/shield ratio? When you upgrade armor, Stalkers only get it for 80 health and sentries 40. (I'm ignoring Robo units for this because upgrades are really worth the weight when you got a lot of units, which is why 3/3 Marines are so good in TvZ).
|
On May 16 2012 01:24 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. Lowering Zealot health/shield ratio would break TvP balance. As of now basically the only unit that is worth Armor upgrade is the Zealot because of the 100 health and they are absolutely necessary or else Terrans would just spam Marauders. Why else does Protoss get armor upgrades when the other units they mass have 50/50 health/shield ratio? When you upgrade armor, Stalkers only get it for 80 health and sentries 40. (I'm ignoring Robo units for this because upgrades are really worth the weight when you got a lot of units, which is why 3/3 Marines are so good in TvZ).
Im not saying a 50/50 ratio. maybe a 90hp and 60 shield from 100/50.
|
On May 16 2012 01:17 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 01:07 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. You also have to keep in mind concerning the cost of infestors and ghosts that between all three races, Protoss has the weakest tier 1 units. High Templar supplement those weaknesses. It's just being analyzed now because Protoss are innovating new levels of greed to reach their late game quicker. That being said, it'd be a viable nerf but if you ACTUALLY wanted to shut down protoss lategame (whether or not it needs to happen at ALL), this wouldn't really do anything but guarentee that colossus will come first and HT's will be made on 3 base. But Protoss do this anyways. So ultimately, they'll max a little slower. It's difficult to theorycraft any further beyond this point, though. Agreed. But I dont think this would shutdown late game protoss, but just slow it down slightly as you say. I also think that a slight increase to HT cost (lets say 75/150 from 50/150) would also help in the unforgiving tech switches from colossus to HT, which complete screw up Terrans. I am fully aware that a good Terran should scout, but even so, it is of such massive importance that we see top level Korean Terrans screwing this aspect of the matchup times and times again. Essentially, a slight increase cost would not only slow the max (and remax, if you think about mass hts, morphing into archons), but would crucially ease the burden off the Terran from being absolutely spot on on the number of viking + ghosts in relation to colossus and high templars.
And that's why I ultimately disagree with any nerfs right now. To slow down rather than nerf their late game composition is to basically accept a stronger late game protoss army. I feel they could be slowed down in other ways through what's already available to Terran. I'd rather let the huge pool of Korean Terrans figure it out, rather than embrace balance changes so soon.
Tech switches aren't really relevant any more. Any maxed protoss army will have both storm and colossus. Any late game protoss army will have high templar -- theyre fast and easy to build. Ghosts are useful for more than just sniping/emp'ing high templars alone. It's the difficult to replace colossus that make it hard for a Terran to manage his viking count when he's unaware of how many colossus are on the field -- especially after they've all died, and unlike ghosts, Vikings only serve one real purpose.
Don't forget it'd also nerf chargelot/archon in PvP, and make phoenixes that much more enticing to use against mutas.
|
Would it be totally crazy to make warp-ins only possible in "blue area's" that are actually connected to the gateways? Pylons could then extend these energy fields to one another, similar to how you could expand creep with creep colonies in SC1.Pylons probably need a bigger power radius then, but that only got nerfed because of high-ground warp-ins so that shouldn't be a big deal.
You could still warp-in stuff all over the place with Warp Prisms, but they are easy to hunt down and take supply and planning in advance.
|
On May 16 2012 01:29 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 01:24 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. Lowering Zealot health/shield ratio would break TvP balance. As of now basically the only unit that is worth Armor upgrade is the Zealot because of the 100 health and they are absolutely necessary or else Terrans would just spam Marauders. Why else does Protoss get armor upgrades when the other units they mass have 50/50 health/shield ratio? When you upgrade armor, Stalkers only get it for 80 health and sentries 40. (I'm ignoring Robo units for this because upgrades are really worth the weight when you got a lot of units, which is why 3/3 Marines are so good in TvZ). Im not saying a 50/50 ratio. maybe a 90hp and 60 shield from 100/50.
Ah okay that would be a slight nerf and could be tried if Blizz thought it was a good idea.
I get the feeling that they probably won't change that as they don't see it as a big problem.
|
On May 16 2012 01:33 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 01:29 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 01:24 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. Lowering Zealot health/shield ratio would break TvP balance. As of now basically the only unit that is worth Armor upgrade is the Zealot because of the 100 health and they are absolutely necessary or else Terrans would just spam Marauders. Why else does Protoss get armor upgrades when the other units they mass have 50/50 health/shield ratio? When you upgrade armor, Stalkers only get it for 80 health and sentries 40. (I'm ignoring Robo units for this because upgrades are really worth the weight when you got a lot of units, which is why 3/3 Marines are so good in TvZ). Im not saying a 50/50 ratio. maybe a 90hp and 60 shield from 100/50. Ah okay that would be a slight nerf and could be tried if Blizz thought it was a good idea. I get the feeling that they probably won't change that as they don't see it as a big problem.
This is the root of the problem. Blizzard does not acknowledge there is a problem. I really don't understand it. It's a real shame.
|
On May 16 2012 01:38 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 01:33 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:29 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 01:24 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. Lowering Zealot health/shield ratio would break TvP balance. As of now basically the only unit that is worth Armor upgrade is the Zealot because of the 100 health and they are absolutely necessary or else Terrans would just spam Marauders. Why else does Protoss get armor upgrades when the other units they mass have 50/50 health/shield ratio? When you upgrade armor, Stalkers only get it for 80 health and sentries 40. (I'm ignoring Robo units for this because upgrades are really worth the weight when you got a lot of units, which is why 3/3 Marines are so good in TvZ). Im not saying a 50/50 ratio. maybe a 90hp and 60 shield from 100/50. Ah okay that would be a slight nerf and could be tried if Blizz thought it was a good idea. I get the feeling that they probably won't change that as they don't see it as a big problem. This is the root of the problem. Blizzard does not acknowledge there is a problem. I really don't understand it. It's a real shame.
They don't have enough information to acknowledge a problem. No one does. It's only been a couple months.
|
I see that a lot of people want to be on equal footing if they just "play greedy", or that they want to have the choice to play greedy and be on equal footing. So in effect these people are saying that every race should be equal when they have perfect armies? I am not against that. But it has never been like that, not in BW and never in SC2.
This whole debate could easily have been about zerg having to deny P third base for as long as possible. Its a part of the current metagame, and nobody really has a problem with it. I see alot of "I just want to have the option to turtle without having to move out before I am maxed" mentality here.
Maybe you dont even HAVE to do damage at certain points in the game, who knows. Maybe you just have to change style (hard to do I know, and we have to wait for a genious to figure it out first). But certain races, having to do certain things, at certain times, is completely natural to me when factions vary as much (thats my opinion at least).
Hopefully T will find some semisafe way to start off greedy against P so they can have a significant advantage midgame. Something on par with Stephano's early to midgame ZvP build.
|
Let me break this down really fast to explain why Protoss has a big advantage late game:
- Protoss has a stronger late game army by design.
- Protoss can reinforce way faster by design.
Those 2 things seriously break the matchup and cause Terran to have to end the game by a certain point or they just lose the game. It's not hard to understand this and that Blizzard really needs to adress at least one of these issues.
- Either nerf warp gate severly/ take warp gate out of the game.
- Or make the protoss late game weaker than Terrans late game army to adress the fact that they can reinforce so quickly.
Obviously those changes would require huge balance changes so I pray to god Blizzard fixes this matchup by removing warp gate and rebalancing Protoss around non warp gates in HotS.
|
On May 16 2012 01:42 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 01:38 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 01:33 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:29 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 01:24 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. Lowering Zealot health/shield ratio would break TvP balance. As of now basically the only unit that is worth Armor upgrade is the Zealot because of the 100 health and they are absolutely necessary or else Terrans would just spam Marauders. Why else does Protoss get armor upgrades when the other units they mass have 50/50 health/shield ratio? When you upgrade armor, Stalkers only get it for 80 health and sentries 40. (I'm ignoring Robo units for this because upgrades are really worth the weight when you got a lot of units, which is why 3/3 Marines are so good in TvZ). Im not saying a 50/50 ratio. maybe a 90hp and 60 shield from 100/50. Ah okay that would be a slight nerf and could be tried if Blizz thought it was a good idea. I get the feeling that they probably won't change that as they don't see it as a big problem. This is the root of the problem. Blizzard does not acknowledge there is a problem. I really don't understand it. It's a real shame. They don't have enough information to acknowledge a problem. No one does. It's only been a couple months.
So what? When does Blizzard need more than 'a couple months' to gather data?
I present exhibit A:
Thor nerf. Time from the first prominent match where a new thor build was used until the nerf: about 2 weeks.
|
On May 16 2012 02:02 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 01:42 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 16 2012 01:38 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 01:33 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:29 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 01:24 Condor Hero wrote:On May 16 2012 01:03 Psychobabas wrote:On May 16 2012 00:39 Solo Terran wrote:On May 16 2012 00:20 okecheyriii wrote:hum I understand that WG can be a pain in the ass, but isn't the zerg reprod much more powerfull ? and you manage to deal with it no ? WG is the essence of protoss, that's practically the only funny thing in protoss arsenal. and do you know how it cost in "mind focus" to always remember to warp in units at the proper timing / reinforce during fights ? you have to go back to your base / pylons to warp in, and of course you can't micro during this time. This is not a one-way benefit, it cost a lot, but in a different way. You know : assymetric design Just keep playing and you will se that even without a single buff, the terran race will be over other races soon, they have the greater potential. The difference with Zerg is that their units actually have to walk across the map. I have no problem with Zerg and TvZ is clearly the best matchup in the game. Zerglings are the only unit that can reinforce as fast as protoss warp gate units and you can set up supply depot walls and have planetaries to defend against zerglings. It's not hard as Protoss to find a pylon after an engagement and warp in 15+ chargelots to destroy expansions. And Terran has to be pressuring and finding weak spots / timings to attack Protoss while macroing the whole game while protoss can just sit back and defend on 3 base and occasionally warp in some units to harass. So the argument about reinforcing taking too much apm is BS. I fear it may already be too late to fix warpgate. I mean, what can Blizzard realistically do? I think that this will change drastically in HotS where it will be Terran mech slowly creeping towards the Protoss, while the Protoss will need to be throwing cheap gateway units against it since the Terran army will be durable enough to somewhat make instant warpins not that powerful. Personally I have some suggestions for TvP: Make chargelots have more shield but less hitpoints. Result: Less tanky, EMP would actually make a difference. Less mass zealot warpins. I cant think how this would affect PvZ and PvP much. Increase cost of High Templars to maybe 75 minerals 150 gas or even 100/150, instead of 50/150. 50/150 is extremely cheap for what this unit does. Look at the costs of infestor and ghost. I would love to hear some serious thoughts. Lowering Zealot health/shield ratio would break TvP balance. As of now basically the only unit that is worth Armor upgrade is the Zealot because of the 100 health and they are absolutely necessary or else Terrans would just spam Marauders. Why else does Protoss get armor upgrades when the other units they mass have 50/50 health/shield ratio? When you upgrade armor, Stalkers only get it for 80 health and sentries 40. (I'm ignoring Robo units for this because upgrades are really worth the weight when you got a lot of units, which is why 3/3 Marines are so good in TvZ). Im not saying a 50/50 ratio. maybe a 90hp and 60 shield from 100/50. Ah okay that would be a slight nerf and could be tried if Blizz thought it was a good idea. I get the feeling that they probably won't change that as they don't see it as a big problem. This is the root of the problem. Blizzard does not acknowledge there is a problem. I really don't understand it. It's a real shame. They don't have enough information to acknowledge a problem. No one does. It's only been a couple months. So what? When does Blizzard need more than 'a couple months' to gather data? I present exhibit A: Thor nerf. Time from the first prominent match where a new thor build was used until the nerf: about 2 weeks.
Blizzard doesn't create the strategies people come up with, they simply remove them. It takes time to solve strategies. It's easy to see no immediate solution and therefore assume there is none.
I'm consistent in my ideals. I've disagreed with all knee-jerk nerfs/buffs: Thors included.
|
I dont like how Blizzard is trying to patch to make us play the game the way they want us to =/
|
|
|
TvP late game is very easy to fix. Just remove strike cannons and energy on Thor. It would not change TvT or TvZ and it would not make Thor rushes too strong since you can still counter with immortals.
|
It sounds as if Terran has a lot of options in early and mid game. But thats of cause wrong. It is MM all-in in the early game and MMM all-in in the mid game. Harass is total useless in TvP. Even if you kill a lot of probes or the third base, the game will go into the lategame and Terran will still lose. Terran can even be 1 base ahead the whole time until late game and they still lose.
|
On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?
There really is none. It's just how the race is designed to play. They are meant to push the mid game and deny the other races from getting too far ahead. Terran is very limited by creativity in the designs of the builds because it seems as if most of the units they make are just supporting the marines and marauders. When other races get key components to their armies with non-support t2 and t3, Terran falls too far behind to have much of a chance.
|
blizzard clearly states that the terran has an advantage in the early to mid game
so with that being said you guys want the protoss late game nerfed so the terran has the advantage all game long...?
|
On May 16 2012 02:22 StriderDoom wrote:
blizzard clearly states that the terran has an advantage in the early to mid game
so with that being said you guys want the protoss late game nerfed so the terran has the advantage all game long...?
Blizzard also happen to be wrong. There's absolutely nothign wrong with Protoss mid-game. Protoss mid-game is actually just as strong as Terran's, sometimes able to outright kill Terran by FFing bunkers with gateway attacks.
Blizzard seems to be a bit out of touch on the current metagame...which is a big worrying considering it's their job to balance the game.
|
The annoying thing is that new stuff that was found got knee jerk nerfed. And not just slightly but to hell. Similarily, the warpgate nerfs (PvP) happened when a counter build was beginning to be found (safety 4-gate with last minute double gateway cancel into robo IIRC). And so on and so on. Blizzard is patching the game very frequently, and with an often metagame-resetting sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Even worse, it feels like they have little idea what the hell they are doing (Hello, monster Queens (who are better than Roaches vs. 0 armor btw))
Plus they're unwilling to let go of horrid ideas like frontloaded production on warp gates (or the WGs themselves in the first place. The mechanic is antithetical to the fundamental rules of troop movement -based strategy.) forcefields (which often act as pause buttons. FFing a ramp is so different in feel to a pre-emptive "I dare you" Storm to buy some time or a bunker/artillery fortification. It completely defuses tension instead of adding to it by a counterthreat) and Colossi (mobile artillery? Where's the tension? Tanks and broods and spellcasters have tension. Colossi mostly invite a "did he make enough of a dedicated counter? Yes/No? Guess he's fucked.") which would allow for a more solid, less gimmicky foundation for the Protoss faction. There's a bunch of nice, good units in there, Templar and Phoenix and Zealots and Observers and a dropship and whatnot. But they're held in the shadow of the gimmickry that warps the entire faction around themselves.
The Protoss suggestions for HoTS sadly feel like a continuation of that. "Let's toss a few more gimmicks onto the pile and it'll be fine surely". No, ffs. What you need is solid, simple unit designs. Simple numbers are incredibly underrated in giving character to units. Do the zergling and the marine, the zealot and the roach perhaps not feel different as soon as they are made? Hell yes they do.
|
I've been doing some thinking, not to say I'm the greatest sc2 analyst out there. but there is a metric that I don't believe anyone has taken into account yet. and that is the protoss shield recharge rate.
In the current design of the game, protoss shields work thusly:
Shields begin to recharge after 10 game seconds have passed. Faster plays at 140% speed, so shields will begin to recharge just after 7 real time seconds have passed.
Shields recharge at a rate of 2 points per game second.
So. lets compare this to core terran lategame unit build times.
Marine: 25 seconds
Marauder: 30 seconds
Ghost: 40 seconds
Viking & Medivac: 42 seconds
Now, lets assume a situation where the Protoss army is able to defeat the existing Terran Army. and will still have some units left over. completely disregarding warp-in reinforcements.
If Rally and Army Travel time was completely non existent, the out-of-battle Protoss units would recover the following shield amount in relationship to the build times of the terran reinforcements.
Marine: 30hp
Marauder: 40hp
Ghost: 60hp
Viking & Medivac: 64hp
as you can see. this proves to be a double-fold issue in regards to the protoss warp-in mechanic, and late-game battles against terran.
Compared to Zerg hp recovery, (excluding burrowed roaches) regenerates at a rate of 0.27 points per game second. so roughly 1hp per every 4 ingate seconds.
A Protoss army, through the shield regeneration mechanic, will be able to recover a large majority of it's shields before reinforcements of a Terran force could re-engage. so essentially, many severely injured units will be back to battle condition... And in every balance discussion I've ever read. The shield regeneration of the protoss has never been taken into question.
Now. without breaking other matchups. I would love to hear some suggestions as to how this could be modified to better suit this situation.
TL;DR version: Protoss shields regenerate too fast outside of battle. and I play protoss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
