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sorry this logic is flawed to say people can't claim imbalance unless they are professional ( that being said, professionals claim the imbalance too).. you should not have to be masters level at terran to consistently beat middle platinum protoss who macro poorly..not saying the balance is quite that terrible but you get the idea... people CAN ALWAYS IMPROVE, but to claim imbalance doesnt have a huge role in how hard it is to beat a certain race even when there is a large skill differential, than you are just kidding yourself.
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On May 15 2012 09:51 Solo Terran wrote:
Warp in should only we available with the warp prism. Warp in is honestly so retarded is basically single handidly ruins Starcraft 2, not even joking in the slightest. Can you imaging playing TvP where when you have an engagement and both armies are destroyed there isn't 20 chargelots instantly in your base? Can you imagine watching PvP where their is actually a defenders advantage instead of how BS it currently is. Blizzard needs to just admit warp gates we're broken from the start and balance protoss around non warp gates in HoTS.
This is the biggest issue in SCII. If not anything, warp gate is one of the most broken mechanics in the game. Giving Protoss the ability to replenish X amount of food instantly is complete and utter nonsense. Buff gateway units a bit, test balance without warp gate, and see how much less bitching the Terran SCII community will bring.
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Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'.
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On May 15 2012 12:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me. so show me some replays, I'm open to learning the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP
Then you need to learn to be MVP. The game's obviously balanced at his level.
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On May 15 2012 12:49 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 12:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me. so show me some replays, I'm open to learning the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP Then you need to learn to be MVP. The game's obviously balanced at his level.
let me get right on that, does anyone know the best way to replace my wrists with robotics?
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Terran is lacking of useful and practical Tier 3 units. enough said. Its suicidal to use battlecruisers are only used in TVT. Thors is only for thor rushes and fighting Muta (zzz).
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On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'.
I don't think this is that big of an issue, terrans have enough tools to deal with both collosi and templar even with the ghost nerfs. The big issue is when it gets really late and toss can just remax instantly with gateway units after trading coupled with how tanky upgraded zealots are against low numbers of bio units. What that means is that zealots can stall a bio force after a big engagements even if the terran wins for the toss aoe to get back up. I'm not sure if limiting warp in to prism only would solve the issue, maybe have something so that emp effects warp ins(could imbalance ghost rush, but iunno could make toss keep some warpgates as regular gates for early game)? Terrans just have a hard time pushing into a toss after barely winning big engagements and sometimes even when they decisively win them. I think just something to stall warp in lategame would suffice just so toss can't bank resources and make 20+warpgates and have instant army after engagements. Terran can bank resources and make lots of production, but gateway units are pretty decent in very low numbers as bio sorta trickles out of production.
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Protoss is making me consider quitting this game altogether, far to frustrating to play against them. Either it's turtle turtle turtle to the late game, or cannon rush, or WP play, blocking the ramp, everything. I know I am being outplayed (most of the time) but it is frustrating as fuck to play against them. Against zerg or terran it doesn't bother me to lose, but when it's against protoss, to some dumbass shit I want to smash my fucking keyboard every time.
Can't remember the last time I beat a protoss player unless he was leagues behind my skill level. Making me hate the game 
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[QUOTE]On May 15 2012 12:12 sGs.Stregon wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 15 2012 12:07 Putain_De_Putois wrote:
People who dont understand this one Blizzard statement just dont understand the game, and need to think more about the metagame than on the imbalance. Blizzard here just told every terran how to deal with protoss : pressure in early/mid-game to avoid the protoss teching. Like tvz and pvz on economy. You terrans need to get this in your mind once for all and find another subject to talk about. This is getting amazingly boring.[/QUOTE]
well there is no advantages early/mid like toss player said ..
Good toss always pressure early so T cant pressure them early game
and the pressure sometimes can kill T player thanks to warpgate and FF
with same equal skill playin long term vs ing toss is like impossible except you got perfect split, perfect carpet emp, perfect drop, while toss just a move while eating pizza
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On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'.
No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm.
I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg.
Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal.
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On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal.
Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning.
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well there is no advantages early/mid like toss player said ..
Good toss always pressure early so T cant pressure them early game
and the pressure sometimes can kill T player thanks to warpgate and FF
with same equal skill playin long term vs ing toss is like impossible except you got perfect split, perfect carpet emp, perfect drop, while toss just a move while eating pizza
That is pretty much what we call an all-in. If it doesn't do significant damage, it fails, and Terran has a retarded advantage that they can use to cripple/kill the Protoss.
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On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning.
Playing greedy and going 3cc would be fine, but blink all-in's, 4gate WP, and 3gate void all kill off 3cc, not to mention all sorts of nasty 2base timings that hit around 8 minutes.
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On May 15 2012 13:45 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +
well there is no advantages early/mid like toss player said ..
Good toss always pressure early so T cant pressure them early game
and the pressure sometimes can kill T player thanks to warpgate and FF
with same equal skill playin long term vs ing toss is like impossible except you got perfect split, perfect carpet emp, perfect drop, while toss just a move while eating pizza
That is pretty much what we call an all-in. If it doesn't do significant damage, it fails, and Terran has a retarded advantage that they can use to cripple/kill the Protoss.
I think he's talking about builds like the 8 gate + early third base pressure, which allow the Protoss to pressure the Terran in this period of time where the Terran is supposedly supposed to be stronger and be able to harass/pressure Protoss to delay his growth into the lategame.
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On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning.
You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled.
You don't see the problem with this?
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On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this?
It's no different to BW tvz design, try playing greedy fast third and passive with bio and see how long you last by giving zerg free reign to expo and go 4+ gas ultra. If mech was viable TvP you might be able to go straight to late game with minimal harrass but as long as you're going heavy T1 you need to get something done with it. Going heavy bio then just waiting for toss to tech to a composition that's effective against it is pretty counter-intuitive.
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On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this?
Less fun ok. You still can use the mech TvP build around here on TL. It seems ok. Or just do like me and write A MOVE instaed of GG at the end of the game. It's enough forr me to move on the next game afetr watching the replay to know what I did bad.
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On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this?
My god.
The same thing is true in PvZ.
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On May 15 2012 14:03 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:55 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning. You're agreeing with me then. You acknowledge that Terran HAS to "do their job" in the early and mid game because what comes after that is utter crap. That's exactly the problem I have with this type of design, it's one dimensional. And if Terran tries to play the converse of this, they get rolled. You don't see the problem with this? It's no different to BW tvz design, try playing greedy fast third and passive with bio and see how long you last by giving zerg free reign to expo and go 4+ gas ultra. If mech was viable TvP you might be able to go straight to late game with minimal harrass but as long as you're going heavy T1 you need to get something done with it. Going heavy bio then just waiting for toss to tech to a composition that's effective against it is pretty counter-intuitive.
I go back and play BW just to play mech in TvP, lol.
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On May 15 2012 13:43 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:34 LRObot wrote:On May 15 2012 12:35 CursOr wrote:
Lategame TvP is an issue because of Colossus and Templar vs nerfed Ghosts, not because of warpgate. Warpgate is fine IMO. Most of the problems in SC2 are generated by the super good pathing, which allows 200 marines to cross a bridge in 10 seconds... not that protoss can warp in 10 units where ever they have a pylon. You can't control chokes, and control space in this game, because the pathing is too good. That is why conlfict is always about 'mass of army A' vs 'mass of army B'. No, it's 5 second reinforcements right on the battlefield that are the problem. Those same 5 second reinforcements that require little to no micro that finishes whatever is left of a Terran army is just stupid, only protoss will think otherwise. Say what you will about stutter step micro. It is required. A significant amount of it is required. The same can't be said about chargelot/archon which offers much more flexibility in terms of apm. I'm not buying into this whole 'Terran has the tools to do damage in the early/mid game and thus control their fate,' either. It's poor, lazy game design and is quite honestly a mark against Blizzard. Both Protoss and Terran should be afforded to play either passively or aggressively in this matchup. Same goes for Zerg. Higher tech Terran units are also a disgrace in this matchup. Protoss just has too many hard counters for the Terran arsenal. Really? So since Terrans would rather play greedy then actually harrass an do their job early and mid game they should expect to come out even against a race that is more suited late game especially if the opponent is greedy an does no harrass or even the bare minimum of their job? Please that's the lazy way of going about things Blizz has it right for once here. Terrans wern't whining last year when they were winning everything but now that the winrates are actually even they're complaining like no tomorrow -.- If you choose to play a race who if they do their job an win early/mid game but choose to sit back and be greedy just don't expect to win or come out even late game against anyone. Terran = early/mid protoss = late game -.- I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning.
This is THE ENTIRE PROBLEM with TvP at the moment. It's pretty funny how you are trying to argue against all the supposed 'Terran qq' when you are infact acknowledging the weakness/game design flaw that we all have a problem with.
Terran SHOULD NOT be required to do economic damage or to delay their tech in order to come out even and survive the lategame. That is simply poor game design. It should be an option for Terran to be greedy or to be aggressive or anything in between and be able to be on even footing the rest of the game.
Forcing any race to be pigeonholed into a specific type of strategy every game in order to hope to win is stupid and if you can't see that then I honestly don't know what else to say.
I fail to see the logic in not harrassing early game and sitting back and being greedy with expectations of winning.
So why is it that Zergs prefer this type of play? Do you have a problem when Zergs like Ret prefer to macro up to 3-4 bases, get 80 drones and then just economically power their way over an opponent? Or perhaps that also means you hate protoss' that sit on 3 bases until they max and get their 3/3 'deathball' and A-move to victory?
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