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On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND.
A Robo Bay takes 65 seconds to build. Before the patch, two observers with one CB would take 70 seconds. That's 5 seconds of Robo Facility time not spent on a Colossus. And this is something practically nobody does - making a Robo Bay immediately after the Facility finishes, and then making two observers. If you're going for a Colossus all-in, you don't have gas to spare for a second observer, nor do you really need one. You were whining about Colossi coming out earlier because of this change, and I'm wasting my time explaining why you're wrong, because you can't even be arsed to research the basics of Protoss play.
Also, if you're honestly complaining about the observer cost reduction, then you're probably one of the players who thought 5 rax reaper and BBS were fine.
Amusingly enough, the same patch that reduced observer cost also removed VR speed, in one of the most baffling balance decisions in the history of SC2. Guess too many 4v4s were lost to speedrays, sigh.
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On May 12 2012 11:08 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. A Robo Bay takes 65 seconds to build. Before the patch, two observers with one CB would take 70 seconds. That's 5 seconds of Robo Facility time not spent on a Colossus. And this is something practically nobody does - making a Robo Bay immediately after the Facility finishes, and then making two observers. If you're going for a Colossus all-in, you don't have gas to spare for a second observer, nor do you really need one. You were whining about Colossi coming out earlier because of this change, and I'm wasting my time explaining why you're wrong, because you can't even be arsed to research the basics of Protoss play. Also, if you're honestly complaining about the observer cost reduction, then you're probably one of the players who thought 5 rax reaper and BBS were fine. Amusingly enough, the same patch that reduced observer cost also removed VR speed, in one of the most baffling balance decisions in the history of SC2. Guess too many 4v4s were lost to speedrays, sigh.
I don't play protoss enough to know the exact timings of everything. You seem to know what you're talking about so I'll assume you're correct on the 5 seconds of coli production time after double obs. Even so, that doesn't change the implications of having observers out faster. You could potentially also make an immortal faster which helps vs a lot of Terran all ins including 2 rax (after initial attack usually) and 1-1-1. Protoss always needs 2 obs vs 1-1-1.
edit: I'm still not sold on not making double obs with the coli build. 1 near his main army so you can ff correctly and 1 watching for drops/scv pull. That's the whole point of the patch. To use OP observers more.
edit2: Holy shit I'm watching NASL. Cloacked banshee gets in axslav's base. He starts the observer once he's already being shot and loses 3 sentries. Obs builds about as fast as a chronoboosted probe? lmao. Do you know what happens when dts show up in your base (as t) and you're not prepared? you lose.
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On May 12 2012 09:17 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 12 2012 09:01 Snowbear wrote:
After trying to find a TvP sollution, I realised that there is 1 big main problem, that no one realises: UPGRADES.
1) Upgrade time
- +1 +2 +3 upgrades take the same time for both T and P, but P can crono, so P upgrades are faster.
2) Upgrade cost
- +1 cost is the same for both players.
- +2 for terran = 175-175
- +2 for protoss = 150-150
- +3 for terran = 250-250
- +3 for protoss = 200-200
3) Upgrade usage
- Terrans have to upgrade 3 units: bio, mech, air.
- Toss upgrades are for both gateway as robo units.
Conclusion:
- Protoss: grades can be done faster (crono).
- Protoss: grades are cheaper (total of 75-75)
- Protoss: 1 type of grade viable for both gateway and robo
As long as blizzard doesn't look into this, TvP macro will never be balanced. Protoss players have:
- the strongest units
- the best grade options
- awesome mobility and macro options (warpin) Protoss is usually behind in those upgrades because they have to get Charge 200/200, Colos Range 200/200, Storm 200/200, and they should probably have Blink as well 150/150. You cannot afford 2 forges worth of upgrades if you go robo before templar, unless your on 3+ mining bases. Wrong wrong and wrong. You can: double forge, then go into collossae, then take third, then go for charge, later tech to storm.
you cannot afford it...
And in pvp you use ff's to delay dts in time to bring your obs back to your base. Your obs is done or should be but it's on the other side of the map.
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On May 12 2012 11:21 TRaFFiC wrote:
edit2: Holy shit I'm watching NASL. Cloacked banshee gets in axslav's base. He starts the observer once he's already being shot and loses 3 sentries. Obs builds about as fast as a chronoboosted probe? lmao. Do you know what happens when dts show up in your base (as t) and you're not prepared? you lose.
I just thought I would point out that banshees have much better utility than DTs do. If I happen to catch that sneaky little DT trying to walk into my base he's dead, but if my opponent was prepared for my banshee, chances are I can still harass a bit unless I really screw up.
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I have had quite few personal opinions regarding the problem(s) Starcraft II have had since the beta of it.
Imo strategy games involve certain core aspects to them , and one of them is "defenders advantage" .
I do not mean that defender should always be miles ahead but that a player who is defending with greater / equal income as his attacking opponent would have a noticeable advantage ( if u dont think about players skill in microing etc etc..) .
Starcraft broodwar is great example of this. Also static defence was stronger on that game in comparison.
The problem wich I have seen since the beginning of Starcraft II beta is that the mechanism wich Protoss has in sc2 , the "warp in " , is cool in paper but not in reality. It completely nullifies the previously written "defenders advantage" wich is imo one of the core aspects of RTS-games.
Even if protoss doesnt do any "cheese builds" involving this warp-in , the pure knowledge its possibility is still there for the
opponent.
What I think would solve this current problem would be to make warp in possible to be cast on Nexus. In that way the defensive cababilities would still be in place but u would not be able to do the current offensive manuvers with the pylon warp-in. In TvP lategame the warp-in problem is greatly shown as protoss players ability to reinforce in Terran players doorstep faster than zerg player and with stronger units.
Since the game lacks 'space control cababilities' for terrans ( see spider mines) players options are quite limited in the lategame. Some people start massing planetary fortresses to counter this reinforcing but one could have several opinions about the usefullness of that.
TL:DR
One of the core elements of RTS-games " defenders advantage" is removed by protoss warp in.
-Change the mechanism to be able to be cast only on Nexus ? I think this would be beneficial for PvP mirror also , to be more fun to play.
-Buff protoss gateway unit's speed ?
I dont go to any other views on this post since imo it would deserve its own post.
-Zoultx
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On May 12 2012 09:41 Resistentialism wrote:
Other than the 75/75 (over 410 gameclock seconds) that's a complaint about chrono boost and robo units. Remove the macro mechanics from the equation and yes, protoss upgrades are good and probably the best of the three races, but it's relatively minor balance issue especially considering the split armour upgrades.
Having +1 more as protoss AND having such a powerful units as the collossus, archon and HT, makes it that terrans can't win a battle (upgrades are really more important then you may think). The terran has to wait untill his 3-3 is finnished, and meanwhile the toss can prepare his deathball. This is the biggest reason why macro TvP is just not possible. You underestimate upgrade A LOT.
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On May 12 2012 11:52 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:17 Snowbear wrote:On May 12 2012 09:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 12 2012 09:01 Snowbear wrote:
After trying to find a TvP sollution, I realised that there is 1 big main problem, that no one realises: UPGRADES.
1) Upgrade time
- +1 +2 +3 upgrades take the same time for both T and P, but P can crono, so P upgrades are faster.
2) Upgrade cost
- +1 cost is the same for both players.
- +2 for terran = 175-175
- +2 for protoss = 150-150
- +3 for terran = 250-250
- +3 for protoss = 200-200
3) Upgrade usage
- Terrans have to upgrade 3 units: bio, mech, air.
- Toss upgrades are for both gateway as robo units.
Conclusion:
- Protoss: grades can be done faster (crono).
- Protoss: grades are cheaper (total of 75-75)
- Protoss: 1 type of grade viable for both gateway and robo
As long as blizzard doesn't look into this, TvP macro will never be balanced. Protoss players have:
- the strongest units
- the best grade options
- awesome mobility and macro options (warpin) Protoss is usually behind in those upgrades because they have to get Charge 200/200, Colos Range 200/200, Storm 200/200, and they should probably have Blink as well 150/150. You cannot afford 2 forges worth of upgrades if you go robo before templar, unless your on 3+ mining bases. Wrong wrong and wrong. You can: double forge, then go into collossae, then take third, then go for charge, later tech to storm. you cannot afford it... And in pvp you use ff's to delay dts in time to bring your obs back to your base. Your obs is done or should be but it's on the other side of the map.
You really can afford it man, I saw several grandmasters do it.
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On May 12 2012 18:48 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:41 Resistentialism wrote:
Other than the 75/75 (over 410 gameclock seconds) that's a complaint about chrono boost and robo units. Remove the macro mechanics from the equation and yes, protoss upgrades are good and probably the best of the three races, but it's relatively minor balance issue especially considering the split armour upgrades. Having +1 more as protoss AND having such a powerful units as the collossus, archon and HT, makes it that terrans can't win a battle (upgrades are really more important then you may think). The terran has to wait untill his 3-3 is finnished, and meanwhile the toss can prepare his deathball. This is the biggest reason why macro TvP is just not possible. You underestimate upgrade A LOT.
ehm how do HT don't benefit from any upgrades
archons don't benefit from armor. the only upgrade that is somewhat effective is Attack upgrades...
Compare that to 3-3 marines that shreed trough everything.
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Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering)
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On May 12 2012 19:59 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 18:48 Snowbear wrote:On May 12 2012 09:41 Resistentialism wrote:
Other than the 75/75 (over 410 gameclock seconds) that's a complaint about chrono boost and robo units. Remove the macro mechanics from the equation and yes, protoss upgrades are good and probably the best of the three races, but it's relatively minor balance issue especially considering the split armour upgrades. Having +1 more as protoss AND having such a powerful units as the collossus, archon and HT, makes it that terrans can't win a battle (upgrades are really more important then you may think). The terran has to wait untill his 3-3 is finnished, and meanwhile the toss can prepare his deathball. This is the biggest reason why macro TvP is just not possible. You underestimate upgrade A LOT. ehm how do HT don't benefit from any upgrades archons don't benefit from armor. the only upgrade that is somewhat effective is Attack upgrades... Compare that to 3-3 marines that shreed trough everything.
Ever heard of shield upgrades? lol
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the problem is they are balancing the game but the relative balance is lacking. idra even addressed this like beginning of beta. races should be balanced and able to access a wide range of strategies to make it balanced in all phases of the game. cmon blizz.. i expected more.
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On May 12 2012 11:21 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:08 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. A Robo Bay takes 65 seconds to build. Before the patch, two observers with one CB would take 70 seconds. That's 5 seconds of Robo Facility time not spent on a Colossus. And this is something practically nobody does - making a Robo Bay immediately after the Facility finishes, and then making two observers. If you're going for a Colossus all-in, you don't have gas to spare for a second observer, nor do you really need one. You were whining about Colossi coming out earlier because of this change, and I'm wasting my time explaining why you're wrong, because you can't even be arsed to research the basics of Protoss play. Also, if you're honestly complaining about the observer cost reduction, then you're probably one of the players who thought 5 rax reaper and BBS were fine. Amusingly enough, the same patch that reduced observer cost also removed VR speed, in one of the most baffling balance decisions in the history of SC2. Guess too many 4v4s were lost to speedrays, sigh. Obs builds about as fast as a chronoboosted probe?
No. A chrono'd observer builds slightly slower than an unchrono'd probe.
lmao. Do you know what happens when dts show up in your base (as t) and you're not prepared?
You scan.
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On May 15 2012 08:12 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:21 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 11:08 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:
[quote]
"huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. A Robo Bay takes 65 seconds to build. Before the patch, two observers with one CB would take 70 seconds. That's 5 seconds of Robo Facility time not spent on a Colossus. And this is something practically nobody does - making a Robo Bay immediately after the Facility finishes, and then making two observers. If you're going for a Colossus all-in, you don't have gas to spare for a second observer, nor do you really need one. You were whining about Colossi coming out earlier because of this change, and I'm wasting my time explaining why you're wrong, because you can't even be arsed to research the basics of Protoss play. Also, if you're honestly complaining about the observer cost reduction, then you're probably one of the players who thought 5 rax reaper and BBS were fine. Amusingly enough, the same patch that reduced observer cost also removed VR speed, in one of the most baffling balance decisions in the history of SC2. Guess too many 4v4s were lost to speedrays, sigh. Obs builds about as fast as a chronoboosted probe? No. A chrono'd observer builds slightly slower than an unchrono'd probe. Show nested quote +lmao. Do you know what happens when dts show up in your base (as t) and you're not prepared? You scan.
You die if you've been muling properly. But you should die to that stuff if you don't prepare, shit I mean its just 1 or 2 turrets and then you just go win after saving some scans.
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On May 12 2012 11:21 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:08 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. A Robo Bay takes 65 seconds to build. Before the patch, two observers with one CB would take 70 seconds. That's 5 seconds of Robo Facility time not spent on a Colossus. And this is something practically nobody does - making a Robo Bay immediately after the Facility finishes, and then making two observers. If you're going for a Colossus all-in, you don't have gas to spare for a second observer, nor do you really need one. You were whining about Colossi coming out earlier because of this change, and I'm wasting my time explaining why you're wrong, because you can't even be arsed to research the basics of Protoss play. Also, if you're honestly complaining about the observer cost reduction, then you're probably one of the players who thought 5 rax reaper and BBS were fine. Amusingly enough, the same patch that reduced observer cost also removed VR speed, in one of the most baffling balance decisions in the history of SC2. Guess too many 4v4s were lost to speedrays, sigh. I don't play protoss enough to know the exact timings of everything. You seem to know what you're talking about so I'll assume you're correct on the 5 seconds of coli production time after double obs. Even so, that doesn't change the implications of having observers out faster. You could potentially also make an immortal faster which helps vs a lot of Terran all ins including 2 rax (after initial attack usually) and 1-1-1. Protoss always needs 2 obs vs 1-1-1. edit: I'm still not sold on not making double obs with the coli build. 1 near his main army so you can ff correctly and 1 watching for drops/scv pull. That's the whole point of the patch. To use OP observers more. edit2: Holy shit I'm watching NASL. Cloacked banshee gets in axslav's base. He starts the observer once he's already being shot and loses 3 sentries. Obs builds about as fast as a chronoboosted probe? lmao. Do you know what happens when dts show up in your base (as t) and you're not prepared? you lose.
Wait what? Axslav loses 300 gas of crucial units to a flying ranged cloak unit that builds off a starport and that's no damage?
What are you talking about a Terran loses when he isn't prepared for DTs. Would you rather build a robo and then an obs (Protoss completely unprepared) or scan (terran completely unprepared)?
hurp durp
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On May 13 2012 05:23 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 19:59 freetgy wrote:On May 12 2012 18:48 Snowbear wrote:On May 12 2012 09:41 Resistentialism wrote:
Other than the 75/75 (over 410 gameclock seconds) that's a complaint about chrono boost and robo units. Remove the macro mechanics from the equation and yes, protoss upgrades are good and probably the best of the three races, but it's relatively minor balance issue especially considering the split armour upgrades. Having +1 more as protoss AND having such a powerful units as the collossus, archon and HT, makes it that terrans can't win a battle (upgrades are really more important then you may think). The terran has to wait untill his 3-3 is finnished, and meanwhile the toss can prepare his deathball. This is the biggest reason why macro TvP is just not possible. You underestimate upgrade A LOT. ehm how do HT don't benefit from any upgrades archons don't benefit from armor. the only upgrade that is somewhat effective is Attack upgrades... Compare that to 3-3 marines that shreed trough everything. Ever heard of shield upgrades? lol
A competent Terran will have a substantial window wherein he is 3/3 against 3/3/0 Protoss.
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On May 15 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:23 teamhozac wrote:On May 12 2012 19:59 freetgy wrote:On May 12 2012 18:48 Snowbear wrote:On May 12 2012 09:41 Resistentialism wrote:
Other than the 75/75 (over 410 gameclock seconds) that's a complaint about chrono boost and robo units. Remove the macro mechanics from the equation and yes, protoss upgrades are good and probably the best of the three races, but it's relatively minor balance issue especially considering the split armour upgrades. Having +1 more as protoss AND having such a powerful units as the collossus, archon and HT, makes it that terrans can't win a battle (upgrades are really more important then you may think). The terran has to wait untill his 3-3 is finnished, and meanwhile the toss can prepare his deathball. This is the biggest reason why macro TvP is just not possible. You underestimate upgrade A LOT. ehm how do HT don't benefit from any upgrades archons don't benefit from armor. the only upgrade that is somewhat effective is Attack upgrades... Compare that to 3-3 marines that shreed trough everything. Ever heard of shield upgrades? lol A competent Terran will have a substantial window wherein he is 3/3 against 3/3/0 Protoss.
Protoss doesn't need shield upgrades to win. The only real window a terran could have is 3/3 versus 2/2 or 3/0, etc.
Any good protoss player wouldn't let that happen....
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On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering)
replay please, i find this scenario hard to believe
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On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering)
Yeah, this is how I lose almost all my TvP games. The protoss deathball simply has nothing to stop it if you lose a big engagement, even if you're up 3 bases and had 20 rax, new rounds of units get slaughtered.
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EPT
