EPTYou could BS in this thread less and read the strategy forum instead...
Edit: I cannot read this thread for more then 2-3 minutes at a time before I start to feel sick or angry.
TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 87
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
You could BS in this thread less and read the strategy forum instead... Edit: I cannot read this thread for more then 2-3 minutes at a time before I start to feel sick or angry. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On May 11 2012 14:08 TheWestWind wrote: What if the vehicle/ship upgrades at the armory were combined? For instance, if you could get level 1 ship and vehicle weapons, at the same time, for 100/100. I wouldn't mind this as a patch which may need to be reverted after a season just to encourage terran players to transition between sky/mech units more | ||
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Authweight
United States304 Posts
On May 11 2012 14:14 l3iRdMaN wrote: It amazes me that the vast majority of SC2 players would rather sit here and bullshit back and forth, rather than put in some work and improve their game... No SC2 isn't perfectly balanced, and we could sit here forever, talk in circles, here ourselves talk and waste a bunch of time doing it... The truth is the majority of people are average (pun intended), and they can't accept it. Their reaction time/thought process will never be quick enough and they will make excuses. They'll blame it on imbalance or whatever bullshit they can think of. Are you one of those people? Or do you possess the required intelligence to be REALLY good at this game? Time to find out... I'm one of many who doesn't really care about imbalance at my level of play, because I don't really play much these days. Maybe an occasional game or two, but with school and the rest of my life I just don't have the time to play at anything close to a high level. However, I do like to watch pro games when I get the chance. For this reason, I want the game to be balanced and fun to watch. I play protoss, but my favorite matchups to watch are TvZ and TvT. In general, I enjoy watching terran biomech play, I think the combination of highly immobile tanks with highly mobile marines and medivacs is just cool to see in action. Unfortunately in TvP, we don't get to see the cool mech units in play, and that makes the matchup less fun to watch. Although lategame EMP vs storm fights are interesting to see unfold. My opinion is that TvP still creates reasonably entertaining games, better than ZvZ or PvP. HotS will make TvP awesome, but until then the matchup is at least passable from an entertainment perspective. Hopefully some of these scouting changes can help make the mirrors a little less of a coin toss, and encourage all protoss and zerg matchups to go into the lategame more often. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On May 11 2012 14:14 l3iRdMaN wrote: It amazes me that the vast majority of SC2 players would rather sit here and bullshit back and forth, rather than put in some work and improve their game... No SC2 isn't perfectly balanced, and we could sit here forever, talk in circles, here ourselves talk and waste a bunch of time doing it... The truth is the majority of people are average (pun intended), and they can't accept it. Their reaction time/thought process will never be quick enough and they will make excuses. They'll blame it on imbalance or whatever bullshit they can think of. Are you one of those people? Or do you possess the required intelligence to be REALLY good at this game? Time to find out... Here here sir, that said I think the dynamic of the matchup needs addressing from a design standpoint as opposed to a balance standpoint (in which case it isn't too bad as things stand) | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On May 11 2012 13:37 Kharnage wrote: Here is the issue. If you apply pressure to protoss it doesn't effect his ecnomy when he warps in shit to deal with your aggression, but it does effect his tech. Upgrades, tech paths, etc are all super expensive for toss, so if you can 'scare' a toss into warping in stalkers to stop a drop then you can bet you just delayed 'something' for being researched or built. The thing is, after 25 minutes, all no matter what you did, they've had time to unlock it all and now you're in trouble. Ideally I think terran should be threatening protoss often while macro'ing so that protoss have a lot of gateway units that they 'had' to warp in instead of the money units like colossus and 3-3 when it's time for terran to do their hammer blow. Just my thoughts. Well, just calculate how much 6 stalkers delay anything. I'd say you arrive at 1 minute tops, if the protoss is working on 2 base and 3 gas. These stalkers don't become useless, but you can use them for drop defense the whole time. So yes, you can delay the tech, but only by very little if you use 'scare tactics' but do not destroy anything. You rarely unlock any kind of timing with pressure, because the protoss has enough resources off 2 bases to get enough splash to forcefully take a third. Look to MVP vs Parting on Cloud Kingdom. MVP played it completely right in the beginning and his 3rd was operational when parting just started his 3rd nexus. His army still got rolled and I would argue it would have gotten rolled even if he had not accidentally split his units, as he only lost like 15 food and was able to regroup. Bottom line: If you don't destroy shit but only pressure a protoss, the gained advantage from your period of map control is not enough to even the footing in the late game. | ||
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
You rarely unlock any kind of timing with pressure, because the protoss has enough resources off 2 bases to get enough splash to forcefully take a third. Look to MVP vs Parting on Cloud Kingdom. MVP played it completely right in the beginning and his 3rd was operational when parting just started his 3rd nexus. His army still got rolled and I would argue it would have gotten rolled even if he had not accidentally split his units, as he only lost like 15 food and was able to regroup. Protoss goes double ups much earlier than terran, so of course they'll take their 3rd a later. Terran then has a bit more units while P has better ups (until max of course). | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? | ||
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YaShock
Hungary119 Posts
On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote: "this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data" Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba | ||
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ntssauce
Germany750 Posts
On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote: "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote: colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On May 11 2012 03:19 SupLilSon wrote: As one of the most vocal TvP whiners of late, I feel a bit ashamed when I say this, but, MVP showed me that TvP is definitely winnable. We may not like the state of the matchup and how Terran is pigeon holed into certain strategies and gameplans vP, but it's possible to win. I know MVP wasn't really showing us much new, but he has still inspired me to give the whine a rest and start practicing my tank pushes, etc. Have you ever thought it's unwinnable? The matchup percentages are overall 50% I've always complained over how shit the matchup is in several aspects, not the win percentages. On May 11 2012 12:45 act.hero wrote: I can't wait for Terrans to learn how to EMP and T move through everything toss can make. You mean the way they were doing and the way protosses were crying for months until Blizzard nerfed ghosts to oblivion in all matchups? We're way ahead of you. Now we're learning from you and trying to get Blizzard to nerf things, because that seems to work better in the long run. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote: colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster This. User was warned for this post | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On May 11 2012 06:00 Torra wrote: Parting made mistakes in every game he lost. MVP made a pathing mistake in the game he lost. In what game did, "Mvp just todayed showed that Terran infact is > protoss midgame in a straight up macro game without any drops or harass on either side". Really, nothing was proved here but the fact that terrans will try to end the game before it even goes to late game, which many terran players have in fact been saying in this thread. On May 11 2012 12:25 wheelchairs wrote: That is incorrect, Mvp just today showed that Mvp is in fact > Parting in those games. Im sick of the people taking the results of pro matches and using them as a basis to make stupid balance assumptions. Look at your statement. How can you justify saying that, it just makes no sense. If Parting used different builds and made different decisions, he could have won, and your post would say that Protoss > terran midgame. wtf are you guys talking about just watch Game 1 and tell me what mistakes both sides have done, it was a standard macro game without any major engagements before game deciding battle. if anything it was partings fault for fighting MVP in before lategame and not turteling right? Like that was what the whole blizzard comment was about. Terran has an advantage midgame. That advantage is clearly shown in that game. during midgame terran has like a 20 supply advantage, which can be used to decoy, harass, snipe something to throw protoss back. And as was shown well in a direct fight T>P in midgame. both had equal economy in that game and neither side took damage before and kept their money low!. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On May 12 2012 01:32 freetgy wrote: wtf are you guys talking about just watch Game 1 and tell me what mistakes both sides have done, it was a standard macro game without any major engagements before game deciding battle. if anything it was partings fault for fighting MVP in before lategame and not turteling right? Yes, he knew what MVP was doing - pumping units non-stop from 5 rax, reactor starport and getting ups from a single eng bay. At the same Parting was teching to T3 as fast as possible and getting ready to take his third. This left him 20 supply behind at the moment of the engagement (150 vs 130). Moreover, MVP took his 20 scvs off the line to tank and perhaps do some extra damage. So the battle occurs, Parting has only 2 collossus while MVP has just enough vikings to take them down. MVP commits about 100 army supply and 20 worker supply into the battle while Parting stands and bangs with about 70... No wonder he did not get it! Then Parting retreats and fails the forcefields. He should have run away as soon as he saw the scvs run removed from the mineral line and stall long enough to get the storm, he could FF and move back when he saw them coming into the battle, instead he chose to get into a stand and bang with 50 less supply... now that is a game-loosing blunder! | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 12 2012 03:02 scypio wrote: Yes, he knew what MVP was doing - pumping units non-stop from 5 rax, reactor starport and getting ups from a single eng bay. At the same Parting was teching to T3 as fast as possible and getting ready to take his third. This left him 20 supply behind at the moment of the engagement (150 vs 130). Moreover, MVP took his 20 scvs off the line to tank and perhaps do some extra damage. So the battle occurs, Parting has only 2 collossus while MVP has just enough vikings to take them down. MVP commits about 100 army supply and 20 worker supply into the battle while Parting stands and bangs with about 70... No wonder he did not get it! Then Parting retreats and fails the forcefields. He should have run away as soon as he saw the scvs run removed from the mineral line and stall long enough to get the storm, he could FF and move back when he saw them coming into the battle, instead he chose to get into a stand and bang with 50 less supply... now that is a game-loosing blunder! Parting is the best PvT player in the world. You see the entire game unfolding without fog of war, Parting does not. Yes he made a mistake, but you need to try to think of the situation from his point of view. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On May 12 2012 03:11 convention wrote: Parting is the best PvT player in the world. You see the entire game unfolding without fog of war, Parting does not. Yes he made a mistake, but you need to try to think of the situation from his point of view. He's best, but he does make mistakes and this was a pretty big one. It was Parting's job to do to look at MVPs army and estimate it was 30 supply more than his, notice 20 scvs he brought along, notice 1/1 upgrades already finished, notice that there are enough vikings to nullify his collosi, forcefield and run away home. He failed to do so and lost. He could have done this and get ahead with every second MVPs armies would spend crashing into his forcefields at the nat. The fact that he has best PvT does not nullify the fact that he died that game to a mistake that he made. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote: Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
What are some difficulties for you? I think there's a problem with the balance. Protoss is overpowered so I hope they balance it out. What exactly about Protoss is overpowered? Everything. Forcefields are OP, gateways are OP too... More importantly there are continuous patches but it seems like Terran is the only one that doesn't get buffs. I'm worried because they're on a downward trend. sort of joking aside, flash admits he's still learning the game, and while he's already way above the average player, if he can pick up on this kind of imbalance ~5 months into the game, what does that say? edit: also I'm interested in MVP's comment that he could take PartinG late game, the only glimpse of lategame tvp action we saw was parting catching MVP way out of position while i've been bitching in the past about how imbalanced PvT is, it'd be interesting to see the best of the best terran go up against the best of the best protoss in a non-stakes game, where they could go late game and actually play | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 12 2012 04:10 renaissanceMAN wrote: even flash says protoss are overpowered sort of joking aside, flash admits he's still learning the game, and while he's already way above the average player, if he can pick up on this kind of imbalance ~5 months into the game, what does that say? It says nothing. If you read the fomos article, every pro gamer seems to have a different idea of what the weakest/best race is. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On May 12 2012 04:10 renaissanceMAN wrote: even flash says protoss are overpowered sort of joking aside, flash admits he's still learning the game, and while he's already way above the average player, if he can pick up on this kind of imbalance ~5 months into the game, what does that say? ...he hasn't played enough yet? | ||
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