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On May 11 2012 03:19 SupLilSon wrote:
As one of the most vocal TvP whiners of late, I feel a bit ashamed when I say this, but, MVP showed me that TvP is definitely winnable. We may not like the state of the matchup and how Terran is pigeon holed into certain strategies and gameplans vP, but it's possible to win. I know MVP wasn't really showing us much new, but he has still inspired me to give the whine a rest and start practicing my tank pushes, etc.
Well, I whine alot about the state of TvP aswell and Im not at all suprised about MVPs success. Im more scared that protosess actually will think this has any weight at all in how the discussion mostly have gone. I personally have never felt that the matchup in its grand total is unbalanced but it do contain points of obvious imbalance wich makes it a bad broken match up even so. Terrans can certinly win, holding certain midgame timings as a toss is hard as hell and depending on the maps very terranfavored but aslong as superlategame so obviously favours one race over the other I feel something should change to even that out. Just balance the earlygame accordingly. You definatly can nerf earlygame terran vs protoss. Just make forcefields unable to deny bunkerrepair somehow and those 6-7-8gate timings wouldnt be impossible to hold with an earlygame terran nerf.
Then how you would "fix" superlategame I dont know. I guess making thors/BCs viable might work? The problem is even if you do say remove the energy from these it would take forever for strategies to grow so its so hard to say what will work and what wont.
Its been said to death but the MU is pretty balanced, all MUs are pretty balanced tbh but this one favours one race to much lategame and should therefore definatly be looked at. Since it though would require quite alot of changes and HoTS not being so far of Im not sure it would be worth it?
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On May 11 2012 12:48 kidcrash wrote:
Buff tank damage to help terrans out late game and then nerf rines early game to compensate. Only thing that might be scary is a really well placed toss all-in. Not sure if terran would be able to hold that with nerfed rines without a lot of turtling and bunkering. Really think it's time to give tanks that +10 damage back that they lost during beta (or was that after beta?).
sadly thats a horrible solution as I think it would hurt ZvT way to much. The best way to test it is to implement it though. Blizzard should have an alternate ladder for master up were they can announce slight changes and have people try it and leave feedback. Say 1week of giving the tank +10 damage whilst nerfing early marines. They should definatly play around abit more with the communities help then they do now.
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On May 11 2012 13:04 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 12:48 kidcrash wrote:
Buff tank damage to help terrans out late game and then nerf rines early game to compensate. Only thing that might be scary is a really well placed toss all-in. Not sure if terran would be able to hold that with nerfed rines without a lot of turtling and bunkering. Really think it's time to give tanks that +10 damage back that they lost during beta (or was that after beta?). sadly thats a horrible solution as I think it would hurt ZvT way to much. The best way to test it is to implement it though. Blizzard should have an alternate ladder for master up were they can announce slight changes and have people try it and leave feedback. Say 1week of giving the tank +10 damage whilst nerfing early marines. They should definatly play around abit more with the communities help then they do now.
The tank did more damage in the beta. It was too much, and this is not worth looking into.
Forget TvZ, you'd never see anything but mech in TvT. Ever.
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On May 11 2012 12:45 act.hero wrote:
I can't wait for Terrans to learn how to EMP and T move through everything toss can make.
Do you honestly think that the very topterrans are bad at EMPs? Its so much easier to spread out a single unit then to emp them all while still having left for the rest of the army. Only time this has happened is when 10+ cloaked ghosts arrive with no obs and thats pretty much the tosses fault for not having a couple obs with his army lategame.
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On May 11 2012 13:07 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 13:04 doffe wrote:On May 11 2012 12:48 kidcrash wrote:
Buff tank damage to help terrans out late game and then nerf rines early game to compensate. Only thing that might be scary is a really well placed toss all-in. Not sure if terran would be able to hold that with nerfed rines without a lot of turtling and bunkering. Really think it's time to give tanks that +10 damage back that they lost during beta (or was that after beta?). sadly thats a horrible solution as I think it would hurt ZvT way to much. The best way to test it is to implement it though. Blizzard should have an alternate ladder for master up were they can announce slight changes and have people try it and leave feedback. Say 1week of giving the tank +10 damage whilst nerfing early marines. They should definatly play around abit more with the communities help then they do now. The tank did more damage in the beta. It was too much, and this is not worth looking into. Forget TvZ, you'd never see anything but mech in TvT. Ever.
It was too much back then but a LOT has changed since beta. A few notable examples are buffed roaches and nerfed ghosts. Yes you'd see a lot of mech in TvT but I think its a sacrafice I'd be willing to make.
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On May 11 2012 13:07 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 13:04 doffe wrote:On May 11 2012 12:48 kidcrash wrote:
Buff tank damage to help terrans out late game and then nerf rines early game to compensate. Only thing that might be scary is a really well placed toss all-in. Not sure if terran would be able to hold that with nerfed rines without a lot of turtling and bunkering. Really think it's time to give tanks that +10 damage back that they lost during beta (or was that after beta?). sadly thats a horrible solution as I think it would hurt ZvT way to much. The best way to test it is to implement it though. Blizzard should have an alternate ladder for master up were they can announce slight changes and have people try it and leave feedback. Say 1week of giving the tank +10 damage whilst nerfing early marines. They should definatly play around abit more with the communities help then they do now. The tank did more damage in the beta. It was too much, and this is not worth looking into. Forget TvZ, you'd never see anything but mech in TvT. Ever.
I know, I played it and I dont think it would work but everything is worth playing around with. There is no loss in testing stuff when in comparison to no testing being done at all outside the halls of blizzard. The metagame has changed so much TvZ since then so I would be up to give it a try.
Again, Id rather see them test roaches with 1supply and 2 armour again then not testing anything at all :p (obviously dont do that though :D)
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This is exactly like PvZ a few months back. Protoss had 0 chance against infestor/broodlord compositions in the late game, and every PvZ turned into a big timing push off 2/3 base that aimed to hit right before hive/brood lord tech. Yet when the protoss players all-ined, they were called cheesy, told that protoss players just needed to "get better" to win , or simply called skill-less and ignored. Now protoss players macro and its called a "skill-less a-click deathball into autowin" so it kinda seems like its impossible for TL to ever enjoy protoss play.
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On May 11 2012 13:15 eFonSG wrote:
This is exactly like PvZ a few months back. Protoss had 0 chance against infestor/broodlord compositions in the late game, and every PvZ turned into a big timing push off 2/3 base that aimed to hit right before hive/brood lord tech. Yet when the protoss players all-ined, they were called cheesy, told that protoss players just needed to "get better" to win , or simply called skill-less and ignored. Now protoss players macro and its called a "skill-less a-click deathball into autowin" so it kinda seems like its impossible for TL to ever enjoy protoss play.
sry had a long comeback that somehow vanished cause of my browser bugging.
Short story. PvZ is also pretty bad lategame but not as onesided and probably havnt been tbh. Sadly it seems to come down to one thing in the end, landing or not landing the vortex and thats not in my book atleast a good endgame.
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On May 11 2012 13:15 eFonSG wrote:
This is exactly like PvZ a few months back. Protoss had 0 chance against infestor/broodlord compositions in the late game, and every PvZ turned into a big timing push off 2/3 base that aimed to hit right before hive/brood lord tech. Yet when the protoss players all-ined, they were called cheesy, told that protoss players just needed to "get better" to win , or simply called skill-less and ignored. Now protoss players macro and its called a "skill-less a-click deathball into autowin" so it kinda seems like its impossible for TL to ever enjoy protoss play.
vZ is different because any sort of aggression hurts the Zergs economy. The same does not apply in vP. Eventually there will come a time when Protoss has figured how to perfectly macro while defending drops/etc and TvP will devolve into win before lategame or else.
Terran just needs the ability to get better production or more firepower lategame. If its firepower, this does not mean buffing marauders, it means giving Terran something to transition to lategame like 2 supply tanks with more bonus vs armor, spider-mines, Thors without energy and less supply cost, stronger less-energy HSM, etc. I wouldn't mind trading that for the ridiculously strong early-mid that Terran has. Hell just get rid of fucking marauders, there fixed.
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Ogsforgg: i think so toss strong
Ogsforgg: but zerg queen more more more more strong
Ogsforgg: Kr Terran user all sad 
After dying to random NA zergs with his most famous hellion builds multiple times in a row , the worst is yet to come guys. :D
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Protoss player here. Blizzard's balancing lately has been a bit more subtle, and I propose something in a similar vein. Though it's not a massive deal, I'd make collosi move more slowly. As it stands they keep pace with the deathball and there's not much onus in terms of control on the Protoss player's part.
I personally would LIKE to have to control more. I'd draw a comparison with mech, I mean it's a very potent army but it's hard to manouvere around. On a purely selfish level I'm a lot better mechanically than plenty of Protoss players at my level or above, and I'd like there to be more to differentiate solid mechanical players from people who just A-move.
As a Protoss player, there's simply no drawback whatsoever for having collosi in your composition in PvT. If they have so many vikings that your collosi melt, well that's a ton of vikings that do nothing for the rest of engagements. I find PvT is actually a pretty dynamic matchup when there's no collosi, templars aren't overpowered as they require control and spread to use efficiently. Polt's games vs Parting, especially game 1 showcased great back-and-forth action rather than turtle into deathball v deathball
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On May 11 2012 13:24 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 13:15 eFonSG wrote:
This is exactly like PvZ a few months back. Protoss had 0 chance against infestor/broodlord compositions in the late game, and every PvZ turned into a big timing push off 2/3 base that aimed to hit right before hive/brood lord tech. Yet when the protoss players all-ined, they were called cheesy, told that protoss players just needed to "get better" to win , or simply called skill-less and ignored. Now protoss players macro and its called a "skill-less a-click deathball into autowin" so it kinda seems like its impossible for TL to ever enjoy protoss play. vZ is different because any sort of aggression hurts the Zergs economy. The same does not apply in vP. Eventually there will come a time when Protoss has figured how to perfectly macro while defending drops/etc and TvP will devolve into win before lategame or else. Terran just needs the ability to get better production or more firepower lategame. If its firepower, this does not mean buffing marauders, it means giving Terran something to transition to lategame like 2 supply tanks with more bonus vs armor, spider-mines, Thors without energy and less supply cost, stronger less-energy HSM, etc. I wouldn't mind trading that for the ridiculously strong early-mid that Terran has. Hell just get rid of fucking marauders, there fixed.
Here is the issue. If you apply pressure to protoss it doesn't effect his ecnomy when he warps in shit to deal with your aggression, but it does effect his tech.
Upgrades, tech paths, etc are all super expensive for toss, so if you can 'scare' a toss into warping in stalkers to stop a drop then you can bet you just delayed 'something' for being researched or built. The thing is, after 25 minutes, all no matter what you did, they've had time to unlock it all and now you're in trouble. Ideally I think terran should be threatening protoss often while macro'ing so that protoss have a lot of gateway units that they 'had' to warp in instead of the money units like colossus and 3-3 when it's time for terran to do their hammer blow.
Just my thoughts.
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just buff tank damage vs shields and problem solved
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On May 11 2012 13:42 skunk_works wrote:
just buff tank damage vs shields and problem solved
And that will make marine/tank pushes and the 1/1/1 ridiculous to hold
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I feel like the whole point of the new mech units for terran in HotS is to solve the lategame problem. For now, though, the matchup is balanced, and there's nothing explicitly wrong against having a game where terran has to take the initiative to win. Terrans are certainly not having a problem winning big tournaments, look at the liquipedia premier events page and you'll see that terran in 2012 has been winning more premier tournaments than the other two races put together. Blizzard has a valid point: the matchup is balanced and skill-dependent. Those are the number one things you look for.
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What if the vehicle/ship upgrades at the armory were combined? For instance, if you could get level 1 ship and vehicle weapons, at the same time, for 100/100.
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It amazes me that the vast majority of SC2 players would rather sit here and bullshit back and forth, rather than put in some work and improve their game... No SC2 isn't perfectly balanced, and we could sit here forever, talk in circles, here ourselves talk and waste a bunch of time doing it...
The truth is the majority of people are average (pun intended), and they can't accept it. Their reaction time/thought process will never be quick enough and they will make excuses. They'll blame it on imbalance or whatever bullshit they can think of. Are you one of those people? Or do you possess the required intelligence to be REALLY good at this game? Time to find out...
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On May 11 2012 14:14 l3iRdMaN wrote:
It amazes me that the vast majority of SC2 players would rather sit here and bullshit back and forth, rather than put in some work and improve their game... No SC2 isn't perfectly balanced, and we could sit here forever, talk in circles, here ourselves talk and waste a bunch of time doing it...
The truth is the majority of people are average (pun intended), and they can't accept it. Their reaction time/thought process will never be quick enough and they will make excuses. They'll blame it on imbalance or whatever bullshit they can think of. Are you one of those people? Or do you possess the required intelligence to be REALLY good at this game? Time to find out...
I can't, I'm at work.
I BS on forums while at work. then I go home and play SC2 or watch GSL (or something else, like read a book). If my work wasn't so boring all the time I would spend less time debating balance 
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On May 11 2012 14:08 TheWestWind wrote:
What if the vehicle/ship upgrades at the armory were combined? For instance, if you could get level 1 ship and vehicle weapons, at the same time, for 100/100.
You don't really make hellions, thors or tanks in TvP anyways so it would make little difference. I think they need to make the EMP radius a bit bigger again.
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On May 11 2012 03:19 SupLilSon wrote:
As one of the most vocal TvP whiners of late, I feel a bit ashamed when I say this, but, MVP showed me that TvP is definitely winnable. We may not like the state of the matchup and how Terran is pigeon holed into certain strategies and gameplans vP, but it's possible to win. I know MVP wasn't really showing us much new, but he has still inspired me to give the whine a rest and start practicing my tank pushes, etc.
Not that balance of SC2 affects me in anyway in the league I play in but taking Mvp as an example as an argument for saying that TvP is winnable is hardly a good example of the state of the matchup.
A player of Mvp's caliber can probably show that any matchup in any situation is winnable.
I don't like TvP (on my level or any pro level) because I don't like the design of SC2 that it's fine for races to be strong at different levels/times in the game. I'd rather have that any race can at given point of time win the matchup with the correct unit composition.
Right, watching pro games, P can get a huge deathball with pretty much anything and you see the clump move forwards with lasers/storms/charglots/archons shooting shit out of there hands while seeing the terran backup/stutter step and split marines like crazy in order to win.
That just feels wrong.
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EPT
