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On May 10 2012 23:45 niwhsa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 23:40 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 22:49 Darneck wrote:On May 10 2012 22:30 scypio wrote:Looking at today's GSL semifinal result... + Show Spoiler +
it seems like MVP solved the late-game TvP with a simple "don't".
These games were far from spectacular, but I guess that's the blizzard way...
This is the reason why the late game can't be buffed without protoss having their early game buffed which makes balacing both things a lot harder No. + Show Spoiler +
These were Partings game to take and he lost due to major mistakes he made:
G1 he moves out too early, does not move back when he sees the scvs incoming and fails the forcefields afterwards.
G2 he does not scout the incoming attack heading straight for the main (still almost holds it)
G4 he fails to position his stalkers properly and intercept the doomdrop when he saw the medivacs moving to the side.
Parting had all the tools those games, he just did not use them properly.
give this man a cookie. Also, I think if protoss decides to all in, its scarier than terran. Of course this is from a terran perspective. In my mind, protoss has the advantage early game, but gains it back mid game, but loses it again...
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement.
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On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement.
Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable.
Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like:
- oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield".
Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull.
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On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull.
And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%.
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On May 11 2012 00:46 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull. And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%.
Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup.
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On May 11 2012 01:15 Dalavita wrote:
Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup.
Ok, I can agree these 6-7-8 gates are early game timings. They need to hit before stim / medivacs. Still, they are very powerful and they give the toss a good shot at winning the game even if the terran makes bunkers and pulls SCVs before the attack hits.
What would happen if you actually simply buffed toss units / nerf terran mid-game? How could anyone hold these attacks or push the toss back once terran T2 tech kicks in?
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On May 11 2012 01:15 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 00:46 convention wrote:On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull. And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%. Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup.
They're also all-ins. A 10 minute Medivac push isn't an all-in. You can quite easily (in fact, you're supposed to) macro behind it and retreat if the Protoss went for a lot of units.
I'm also not sure how you can call a 6 gate all-in an "early game" push even though it hits off of two base and comes about a minute before Medivacs.
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On May 11 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:15 Dalavita wrote:On May 11 2012 00:46 convention wrote:On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull. And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%. Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup. They're also all-ins. A 10 minute Medivac push isn't an all-in. You can quite easily (in fact, you're supposed to) macro behind it and retreat if the Protoss went for a lot of units. I'm also not sure how you can call a 6 gate all-in an "early game" push even though it hits off of two base and comes about a minute before Medivacs.
they are not all ins. you can be sure to kill at least a lot of scv during the process or let the terran loose mining time. you can just continue macroing afterwards as protoss. you'll overtake with chronoboost. if you are smart you will only loose zealots.
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On May 11 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:15 Dalavita wrote:On May 11 2012 00:46 convention wrote:On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull. And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%. Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup. They're also all-ins. A 10 minute Medivac push isn't an all-in. You can quite easily (in fact, you're supposed to) macro behind it and retreat if the Protoss went for a lot of units. I'm also not sure how you can call a 6 gate all-in an "early game" push even though it hits off of two base and comes about a minute before Medivacs.
Everything a terran does is an all-in because of the timer on the matchup. Also, I don't know about you, but I've yet to see those earlygame protoss all-ins not do enough damage to keep them in the game, especially when protosses know that if they can delay until the lategame they're back in again.
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On May 11 2012 01:48 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:On May 11 2012 01:15 Dalavita wrote:On May 11 2012 00:46 convention wrote:On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull. And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%. Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup. They're also all-ins. A 10 minute Medivac push isn't an all-in. You can quite easily (in fact, you're supposed to) macro behind it and retreat if the Protoss went for a lot of units. I'm also not sure how you can call a 6 gate all-in an "early game" push even though it hits off of two base and comes about a minute before Medivacs. Everything a terran does is an all-in because of the timer on the matchup. Also, I don't know about you, but I've yet to see those earlygame protoss all-ins not do enough damage to keep them in the game, especially when protosses know that if they can delay until the lategame they're back in again.
That's a completely disingenuous. There is a substantial difference between toss all ins and the very sustainable and safe medivac pressure.
Actually... I think there are well multiple cases where these heavy gateway "pressures" see a wall of bunkers and don't do enough. That's because tech is necessary in order to fight. At a certain point in the game, tech and upgrades must be unlocked by the toss or he just dies no matter what.
I'm surprised no one has ever commented on how pressure free terrans are. Zealot drops seemed like they were so effective because the multi-task and awareness just wasn't there. All of Toss' pressure in the early midgame is with a sledge hammer rather than a scapel ala reaver ( or butcher's knife ala medivac). That contributes to the hated "staleness" of games as much as anything.
I am pretty disappointed with the development of the game.
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On May 11 2012 01:48 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:On May 11 2012 01:15 Dalavita wrote:On May 11 2012 00:46 convention wrote:On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull. And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%. Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup. They're also all-ins. A 10 minute Medivac push isn't an all-in. You can quite easily (in fact, you're supposed to) macro behind it and retreat if the Protoss went for a lot of units. I'm also not sure how you can call a 6 gate all-in an "early game" push even though it hits off of two base and comes about a minute before Medivacs. Everything a terran does is an all-in because of the timer on the matchup. Also, I don't know about you, but I've yet to see those earlygame protoss all-ins not do enough damage to keep them in the game, especially when protosses know that if they can delay until the lategame they're back in again.
I think you using the term "all-in" incorrectly. An all-in is a build that centers around one attack or push that will end the game as a specific time. It is not a pressure build, which is designed to force your opponent to be defensive. Most pressure builds have the option to apply more pressure or outright kill if your opponent is not prepared. The 8 gate build you are discussing an all-in in every way, shape and form, as it cuts both probes and tech in favor of units. If the terran holds this push and is able to get out stim and medivacs, the protoss has few options to recover, as all their tech is under developed. The terran still has to see what the protoss is doing and make sure they don't just blindly expand and hope for the best.
People seem to confuse pressuring or attacking your opponent in the first 10 minutes of the game as some form of all-in. In PvZ, the void ray/+1 zealot timing attack at 9-10 minutes is not an all in. Two rax-marine pressure is not an all-in.
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On May 11 2012 01:48 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:On May 11 2012 01:15 Dalavita wrote:On May 11 2012 00:46 convention wrote:On May 11 2012 00:27 scypio wrote:On May 11 2012 00:10 Lightspeaker wrote:
As far as I remember the game statistics someone put up a while back of a load of pro games show the following:
- Super, super early game cheese is Protoss favoured. Most likely proxy 2-gates and stuff like that.
- Into early game Terran gets an increasingly large advantage as marine/marauder numbers build up plus the strong early game timings.
- Mid-game is heavily Terran favoured due to Terran having stuff like stim, combat shields, concussive shells and medivacs all out whilst Protoss is frantically trying to get to an AoE tech to deal with the bio ball as well as counter-tech like Charge.
- This swings right back in Protoss favour when Protoss finally gets a critical mass of Colossi or High Templars and thus can avoid flat out dying to stimmed MMM in an open engagement. Mid-game is heavily Terran-favoured because Terran builds focus on those 11-12 minutes timings. Protoss builds that hit at the same time or earlier (immortal busts, 6-7-8 gate timings etc) are just as scary, they are just less popular right now. How many times have I seen a situation where the terran scouted incoming gateway timing attack, set up bunkers, pulled scvs and still failed to hold? With some kind of toss buff these builds would become next to unstoppable. Some time ago during a GomTV cast I heard a comment on the state of TvP. It was something like: - oh, look, how far we went from the times when terran would just build 3 marauders, 5 marines and stim up the ramp into the toss main keeping fingers crossed, saying "man, I hope he is looking somewhere else and will not forcefield". Right now I feel that actually it makes not that big of a difference. Now the T will get 5 marauders, 12 marines, 2 medivacs, cross the fingers and hope to find a hole in toss defence right at that certain moment. Over, and over, and over again. That's just dull. And how many times have I seen those 6-7-8 gate timings fail despite having a massive army advantage? Those only work if the protoss has a huge army lead, and sometimes they still fail. However, if those army values are reversed at the same time, it is game over for the protoss. He will not be holding that timing. There is no way that toss has better early game timings, equal mid game timings, and better in the lategame. If that was true, there is no way that the matchup W/L is still ~50%. Those aren't midgame timings. They hit before the 10 minute mark, and they annihilate terrans who are prepared for them. Protoss dominates earlygame and lategame in the matchup. They're also all-ins. A 10 minute Medivac push isn't an all-in. You can quite easily (in fact, you're supposed to) macro behind it and retreat if the Protoss went for a lot of units. I'm also not sure how you can call a 6 gate all-in an "early game" push even though it hits off of two base and comes about a minute before Medivacs. Everything a terran does is an all-in because of the timer on the matchup. Also, I don't know about you, but I've yet to see those earlygame protoss all-ins not do enough damage to keep them in the game, especially when protosses know that if they can delay until the lategame they're back in again.
I think you need to watch more pro games, then. There have been plenty of failed 6gates.
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[/QUOTE]
I'm surprised no one has ever commented on how pressure free terrans are. Zealot drops seemed like they were so effective because the multi-task and awareness just wasn't there. All of Toss' pressure in the early midgame is with a sledge hammer rather than a scapel ala reaver ( or butcher's knife ala medivac). That contributes to the hated "staleness" of games as much as anything.
I am pretty disappointed with the development of the game. [/QUOTE]
That bit comparing units to knives had my lolling for a good 45 seconds straight ^^
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As one of the most vocal TvP whiners of late, I feel a bit ashamed when I say this, but, MVP showed me that TvP is definitely winnable. We may not like the state of the matchup and how Terran is pigeon holed into certain strategies and gameplans vP, but it's possible to win. I know MVP wasn't really showing us much new, but he has still inspired me to give the whine a rest and start practicing my tank pushes, etc.
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Well Mvp just todayed showed that Terran infact is > protoss midgame in a straight up macro game without any drops or harass on either side...(which was denied many times in this thread)
There is a reason why P plays defensive until lategame. You just outright lose without any chance to retreat.
Only Lategame there comes a phase where things even out at all. (when both colossus and ht are on the field, and there are not ghosts already on the field)
This ridiculous terran whining needs to stop ffs.
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On May 11 2012 03:13 captainwaffles wrote:
I'm surprised no one has ever commented on how pressure free terrans are. Zealot drops seemed like they were so effective because the multi-task and awareness just wasn't there. All of Toss' pressure in the early midgame is with a sledge hammer rather than a scapel ala reaver ( or butcher's knife ala medivac). That contributes to the hated "staleness" of games as much as anything.
I am pretty disappointed with the development of the game. [/QUOTE]
That bit comparing units to knives had my lolling for a good 45 seconds straight ^^[/QUOTE]
I'm a motherfucking lyrical wordsmith yo.
Actually I should have compared drops to cigar cutters. The toss getting his tech to extend out into the map...
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On May 11 2012 03:31 freetgy wrote:
Well Mvp just todayed showed that Terran infact is > protoss midgame in a straight up macro game without any drops or harass on either side...(which was denied many times in this thread)
There is a reason why P plays defensive until lategame. You just outright lose without any chance to retreat.
Only Lategame there comes a phase where things even out at all. (when both colossus and ht are on the field, and there are not ghosts already on the field)
This ridiculous terran whining needs to stop ffs.
Parting made mistakes in every game he lost. MVP made a pathing mistake in the game he lost. In what game did, "Mvp just todayed showed that Terran infact is > protoss midgame in a straight up macro game without any drops or harass on either side". Really, nothing was proved here but the fact that terrans will try to end the game before it even goes to late game, which many terran players have in fact been saying in this thread.
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On May 11 2012 03:31 freetgy wrote:
Well Mvp just todayed showed that Terran infact is > protoss midgame in a straight up macro game without any drops or harass on either side.
That is incorrect, Mvp just today showed that Mvp is in fact > Parting in those games.
Im sick of the people taking the results of pro matches and using them as a basis to make stupid balance assumptions. Look at your statement. How can you justify saying that, it just makes no sense. If Parting used different builds and made different decisions, he could have won, and your post would say that Protoss > terran midgame.
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The only Terrans Protoss are losing too are the ones with impeccable micro, other then that terran has a 2-4 minute window to close out a game
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I can't wait for Terrans to learn how to EMP and T move through everything toss can make.
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Buff tank damage to help terrans out late game and then nerf rines early game to compensate. Only thing that might be scary is a really well placed toss all-in. Not sure if terran would be able to hold that with nerfed rines without a lot of turtling and bunkering. Really think it's time to give tanks that +10 damage back that they lost during beta (or was that after beta?).
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EPT
