TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 83

On May 09 2012 15:24 one-one-one wrote:


One unit ... phoenix.

Yes, it actually is that easy. With phoenix on the field the banshees have to be over the bioball all the time and they will take damage from storms and such. When you dodge storms with bio the banshees will be left behind and be picked off easily.

They also take away viking production time, or mean you have to put a lot of resources into starports to get a meaningful amount out. Protoss can just chronoboost a single starport to counter it.

If mech was viable banshees would be useful as you could slow push the map with turrets that deny observers.

On May 09 2012 18:04 Rannasha wrote:


And what would've happened if they would've flat out said that they thought Terrans were too weak in the lategame? It would've caused endless whining until it got fixed. Note that the current round of balance changes being tested doesn't involve anything TvP related (though Obs buff could be a minor P midgame buff) so any planned TvP changes would've still taken quite a while before going live. In the meantime, every Terran lategame loss would've been attributed to balance, because "Blizzard said so".

The post they made was politically correct above anything else. It hints at the issues without actually stating there's a problem. It's the safest way to at least let people know that they're looking at it without giving a carte blanche to balance whiners. In addition, the post was made by a community manager, which is basically a glorified forum moderator.

On May 09 2012 19:13 Qibla wrote:
Anyone want to tell me where I went wrong in this TvP?

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/18843

Had ghosts, marine marauder medivac. Kept him on 3 base. Researched 3/3 and I was on 4 base, getting more. He just crushed every army I made.

On May 09 2012 19:26 Dalavita wrote:


I'm 18 minutes in and the biggest flaw I can find right now is that you didn't capitalize on your four bases to his two. It's good that you denied his third for so long, but you had five barracks and two starports on 4 base floating 2.4k 1.4k.

Throw down at least 6 other barracks and get triple upgrades with ghost academy going and you'll see improvements.

If you're that far ahead of him, don't even bother with direct engagement, try to just deny his expansion as long as he can, or if he parks his entire army at his expansion, dropping his main, until you max out, and then start trading armies. Your superior bases will allow you to reproduce faster than him. Also you only had one engineering bay 18 minutes in with upgrades. At that point you should at the very least have double engi and an armory all upgrading, and probably the ghost academy as well. If you go upgrade heavy it's key that you try and keep upgrading constantly. You had massive gaps between your upgrades.

Also, the last engagement you had on him when you went at 190 food to his 170 was good until you sacced the rest of your army. You sniped his colossi, and traded decently, but you decided to push it instead of dropping his main with 3 medivacs full of units or remaxing at home and repushing. Your push simply got stormed down.

On May 09 2012 18:01 lorkac wrote:


Actually--templar tech is the true counter to the Banshee. When amassed, Banshees are forced to stick together because they're so expensive and take up so much supply that it's not worth it to spread them out too much. This makes storms and archons ridiculously powerful against them in smaller numbers.

On May 09 2012 22:39 Quotidian wrote:



no, the correct response is phoenix. Often in addition to HTs, but then you use your HTs mostly to feedback stuff like ravens. Or just go for a 2 base all-in with 3 colossi and mass stalker when you scout more than 2 starports, because most terran air builds are really fragile in that period of time
I play mass air with mech support vs protoss, and HTs aren't a big problem at all. Banshees are so mobile that they don't have to fight against archons, and they can easily dodge storms. But the banshees pin the protoss back and I can take bases all over the map. Going for phoenix kills the banshee harass outright, and forces terran back to his base.

The notion that banshees HAVE to stick together isn't true either. If your multitasking is good, you can do just as much damage with two groups of 10 banshees at two different spots on the map, as you can with one group of 20.

On May 09 2012 19:40 Dalavita wrote:
He didn't have cannons on the north side of his main, and even if he did you could have scanned, sniped it from the ground and then loaded up.

You did have a massive lead, but you didn't use it in that game. He was basically dead because of how late he got his third. All you needed to do was to get good trades for extended periods of time and just overrun him by superior production. Your production was not of four base quality even though you had four bases. This is the most important thing.

The impetus is on terran to get the good trades tho. If you screw up once it's more than likely that he can just roll you. That's the way the matchup is.

Also you can work on your engagements in general as well.

You were way too scared of two colossi when he had 40 food less than you, your stutter stepping was off sync etc, you didn't use his own force fields against him to kill his zealots in the 15 min fight.

On May 09 2012 13:38 tdt wrote:
I play protoss and think EMP nerf was disaterous and tanks need to do about 70 damage per shot. Also ghost snipe was only effective way to deal with zergs late game another bad nerf.

These three things would make terran enter late game on equal footing.

My specail wish would give thors irradate instead of strike cannon frying charglots, zerlings and most importantly BROODLINGS in immidiate vincinity making pure mech viable.

On May 09 2012 19:37 Qibla wrote:


Yeah I didn't drop his main because of the cannons. That's pretty much how all my TvP's go. I get a massive lead, then they beat me no matter what.

On May 10 2012 02:07 xelnaga_empire wrote:


The point is, P can come back if the game goes into the late game, but T cannot.

If the game were balanced right, T and P should have equal ability to make a comeback in the late game.

On May 10 2012 02:07 xelnaga_empire wrote:


The point is, P can come back if the game goes into the late game, but T cannot.

If the game were balanced right, T and P should have equal ability to make a comeback in the late game.

On May 10 2012 03:01 Plansix wrote:


You had the lead, but didn't use it, which is why the protoss was able to come back. Floating 2.4 k minerals is ok if your maxed, but you should be adding raxes and add ons for the fast remax. One of the first things you learn as a protoss player is not to attack into a terran that you have contained on 2 bases in the mid game. I lost so many games attacking into a terran because I though I had the lead. It is better to expand and get unstoppable production than to attack into a fortified terran's natural, regardless of how much of an advantage you have. In most cases, it is better to let the terran mine themselves out trying to take a third base. It is not much different when fighting protoss.

In your case, you had the protoss against the wall, which means you have a good opening and mid game. When you get a lead, don't try to be agressive. Sit back and keep the protoss fewer bases for as long as possible while building up your infastructure. If you get to the point where you can produce 20 marines or more a cycle, the protoss is going to hard pressed to to keep up.

On May 10 2012 11:37 zmansman17 wrote:


Your post demonstrates that you do not understand Terran. As Terran you do not get "unstoppable production". That is for Protoss players who dump excess minerals into warpgates and then can warp in units with any ratio of minerals and gas into viable units. Terran can drop more rax, sure, but their ability to remax even with a bunch more rax and add-ons is not sufficient to have "unstoppable production" and maybe not enough to rebuild their army after the Protoss army trades for their army.

On May 09 2012 22:54 Jermstuddog wrote:
Definitely agree with that last statement.

People try to act like banshees are the same as Mutas because they perform the same function and are both somewhat flimsey units.

The major difference here is that banshees have insane DPS where Mutas are kinda shitty in general except for their speed.

You almost never want to split your Mutas regardless of how many you have because they're dependant on killing high priority targets as quickly as possible, and targets like archons take 35+ Mutas to kill.

Banshees on the other hand can kill most things that can hit them cost-effectively from the get-go, so stacking them isn't nearly as important, and is probably more detrimental than one would initially think due to all the wasted shots.

On May 06 2012 01:12 sluggaslamoo wrote:


You are right, people saying late-game TvP is imba for Terran in BW don't understand the game very well. Split map TvP is equal if not stronger for P than it is for T. Otherwise T would never do a 2-base timing attack and Flash wouldn't be doing all these greedy builds.

BW Probes mine 20% faster than SCVs. Does not exist in SC2.
BW More bases = more economy. Does not exist in SC2.
BW Mech is immobile, you can't just a-move into the Protoss base when you feel like it, because a deathball with un-sieged tanks will die to a Protoss army. In SC2 Protoss armies are as mobile as T.
BW Protoss has about 20 gateways to Terrans 9 Facts. In SC2, Protoss has equal if not better production than Terran.
BW Protoss has Arbiters and Carriers. In SC2, Terran lacks T3 firepower.

Seriously I've played split map TvP with both races and it feels nothing like the hopelessness you feel in SC2 late-game TvP. The problem is you can't "out-macro" a good Toss, you gotta exploit timings, attack openings and compositions.

In BW TvP (or any matchup for that matter) it doesn't matter which race you pick, if you are greedy and can defend it, you will win. That is a style of play that Flash uses, and he used it against Bisu when they switched races, and Flash just demolished him with good economic management even when he was losing random units to mines. Flash just proved it doesn't matter what race you play, just be greedy and you can win.

In SC2 Terran can't get 3-4 bases up really fast, defend it, and then beat Protoss that way. The more chance you give Protoss in getting that 3rd base the more likely you are gonna lose, for various reasons. Unit design, 4 bases is not more economical than 3 bases, etc.