EPTTvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 88
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 12 2012 04:16 Resistentialism wrote: Seemed like the only consensus from that big survey article a week ago was that a lot of people thought zerg was underpowered. That's because people are, in general, biased, and can't look past the fact that Zerg was poorly represented this season in the GSL. Nevermind that they won last season. People really need to come to terms with the fact that outliers exist. In sporting leagues, there are occasions in which none of the favourites get past the group stages. Do people suspect foul play? Maybe, but nobody takes that seriously. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote: If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote: Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). Pretty sure Flash held this on Antiga Shipyard with a 3rd command center in his nat after only playing a few weeks. Learn to play? SCVs have repair for a reason....why wouldn't you want to pull them to stop a push that puts him far behind on economy? It would be dumb not to... you hold you're ahead. | ||
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Tippecanoe
United States342 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:28 Tump wrote: Pretty sure Flash held this on Antiga Shipyard with a 3rd command center in his nat after only playing a few weeks. Learn to play? SCVs have repair for a reason....why wouldn't you want to pull them to stop a push that puts him far behind on economy? It would be dumb not to... you hold you're ahead. To be fair if you look at the game it was probably the worst push i've ever seen in my life. Garbage forcefields and most of his units were hitting the factory. His colo was hitting the supply depot. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:28 Tump wrote: Pretty sure Flash held this on Antiga Shipyard with a 3rd command center in his nat after only playing a few weeks. Learn to play? SCVs have repair for a reason....why wouldn't you want to pull them to stop a push that puts him far behind on economy? It would be dumb not to... you hold you're ahead. You will not hold that all in with 3 cc. Telling me one random example does not change that. How is the T ahead if he holds? The Terran's only chance is pulling all the scvs and taking a decisive victory. At that point, he will no economy and he MUST kill the protoss within 40 seconds. | ||
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Amoment
Germany175 Posts
Or in other words: your arguement is invalid. When did you devise the count of 40 seconds? It doesn´t make any sense to me. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:39 Amoment wrote: I don´t want to sound BM TRaFFiC, but blaming someone for giving "random examples" while saying something like "MUST kill the protoss within 40 seconds" contradicts. Or in other words: your arguement is invalid. When did you devise the count of 40 seconds? It doesn´t make any sense to me. 1 minute. 40 seconds. REALLY FAST. You have a greatly reduced eco while he has at least 45 probes. What doesn't make sense? | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote: Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). Even at high levels of play (maybe you suck I don't know) its not a buff. If your a Protoss and your obs isn't already out by the time your Robotics Bay is complete than there is something wrong with your build, if anything this gives Protoss more time to make Immortals and not Colos. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
1) Upgrade time - +1 +2 +3 upgrades take the same time for both T and P, but P can crono, so P upgrades are faster. 2) Upgrade cost - +1 cost is the same for both players. - +2 for terran = 175-175 - +2 for protoss = 150-150 - +3 for terran = 250-250 - +3 for protoss = 200-200 3) Upgrade usage - Terrans have to upgrade 3 units: bio, mech, air. - Toss upgrades are for both gateway as robo units. Conclusion: - Protoss: grades can be done faster (crono). - Protoss: grades are cheaper (total of 75-75) - Protoss: 1 type of grade viable for both gateway and robo As long as blizzard doesn't look into this, TvP macro will never be balanced. Protoss players have: - the strongest units - the best grade options - awesome mobility and macro options (warpin) | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On May 12 2012 09:01 Snowbear wrote: After trying to find a TvP sollution, I realised that there is 1 big main problem, that no one realises: UPGRADES. 1) Upgrade time - +1 +2 +3 upgrades take the same time for both T and P, but P can crono, so P upgrades are faster. 2) Upgrade cost - +1 cost is the same for both players. - +2 for terran = 175-175 - +2 for protoss = 150-150 - +3 for terran = 250-250 - +3 for protoss = 200-200 3) Upgrade usage - Terrans have to upgrade 3 units: bio, mech, air. - Toss upgrades are for both gateway as robo units. Conclusion: - Protoss: grades can be done faster (crono). - Protoss: grades are cheaper (total of 75-75) - Protoss: 1 type of grade viable for both gateway and robo As long as blizzard doesn't look into this, TvP macro will never be balanced. Protoss players have: - the strongest units - the best grade options - awesome mobility and macro options (warpin) Protoss is usually behind in those upgrades because they have to get Charge 200/200, Colos Range 200/200, Storm 200/200, and they should probably have Blink as well 150/150. You cannot afford 2 forges worth of upgrades if you go robo before templar, unless your on 3+ mining bases. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On May 12 2012 09:15 Wrongspeedy wrote: Protoss is usually behind in those upgrades because they have to get Charge 200/200, Colos Range 200/200, Storm 200/200, and they should probably have Blink as well 150/150. You cannot afford 2 forges worth of upgrades if you go robo before templar, unless your on 3+ mining bases. Wrong wrong and wrong. You can: double forge, then go into collossae, then take third, then go for charge, later tech to storm. | ||
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speedything
18 Posts
On May 12 2012 09:01 Snowbear wrote: After trying to find a TvP sollution, I realised that there is 1 big main problem, that no one realises: UPGRADES. 1) Upgrade time - +1 +2 +3 upgrades take the same time for both T and P, but P can crono, so P upgrades are faster. 2) Upgrade cost - +1 cost is the same for both players. - +2 for terran = 175-175 - +2 for protoss = 150-150 - +3 for terran = 250-250 - +3 for protoss = 200-200 3) Upgrade usage - Terrans have to upgrade 3 units: bio, mech, air. - Toss upgrades are for both gateway as robo units. Conclusion: - Protoss: grades can be done faster (crono). - Protoss: grades are cheaper (total of 75-75) - Protoss: 1 type of grade viable for both gateway and robo As long as blizzard doesn't look into this, TvP macro will never be balanced. Protoss players have: - the strongest units - the best grade options - awesome mobility and macro options (warpin) But then Protoss do have to upgrade the shields too. They're only upgrading a certain percentage of their health with armour alone. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On May 12 2012 09:28 speedything wrote: But then Protoss do have to upgrade the shields too. They're only upgrading a certain percentage of their health with armour alone. Oh I forgot to add that: - Protoss players have, when they enter the lategame, another upgrade available: the shield upgrade! | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On May 12 2012 09:28 speedything wrote: But then Protoss do have to upgrade the shields too. They're only upgrading a certain percentage of their health with armour alone. It's a fact that having attack and armor equal with Terran puts them on equal ground. Shield is basically a bonus. I still have no idea why they reduced the cost of Protoss upgrades when they can get them the faster and all the core units benefit from ground upgrades, unlike Terran. But then again, I don't understand half the silly "balance" patches blizzard has done. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote: Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote: I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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